Prenatal drug/alcohol exposure and potty learning

[Sierra]

Any of you who have had kids who were exposed to drugs or alcohol before birth, can you tell me if you noticed an impact on potty learning? I ask because dfd's level of body awareness seems to potentially be impacted by prenatal exposure.

[SusanElizabeth]

My oldest DD did not potty train until she was 3, and she was not exposed to alcohol in the womb.

I don't see how anyone can attribute prenatal exposure to alcohol with potty training or other specific activities, if the age of the child is within the range of what is considered normal for mastering those skills. There are too many other variables to say, "it's because of the alcohol exposure."

[lauren]

Originally Posted by SusanElizabeth

My oldest DD did not potty train until she was 3, and she was not exposed to alcohol in the womb.

I don't see how anyone can attribute prenatal exposure to alcohol with potty training or other specific activities. There are too many other variables to say, "it's because of the alcohol exposure."

I don't think Sierra was looking for a definitive link, just a correlation as well as other people's experiences. Also, I think a deficit in "cause and effect" thinking, common to alcohol exposed children, would cause potential problems in potty learning.

[DTmama1]

My former foster daughter who had FAS was 4.5 and not potty trained. But my bio daughter was 3.5 before potty training (quite capable but afraid of all things potty). I went to an interesting training for childcare providers last weekend. They said that the stance f the AAP is that most children are not developmentally ready to PT until 30-36 months. (I know many people here EC and such, I am jsut sharing the information I was given last week)

When it came to K, my fdd, she was like a 2 year old in all other aspects of her development, so I felt that it wasnt unusual for her to be fuctioning at a 2yo level in PTing too.

[Sierra]

Originally Posted by SusanElizabeth

My oldest DD did not potty train until she was 3, and she was not exposed to alcohol in the womb.

I don't see how anyone can attribute prenatal exposure to alcohol with potty training or other specific activities. There are too many other variables to say, "it's because of the alcohol exposure."

[Emphasis Mine]

This is illogical. Science distinguishes cause and effect vs. correlation questions all the time. How did anyone ever decide that asbestos caused lung disease? Or smoking? How is it that obesity was ever narrowed down to be one of several factors involved in the pathological process of type II diabetes?

There is a real thing called fetal alcohol syndrome (one of the more severe results of prenatal exposure to alcohol). Science has linked the cause to intake of alcohol. There is no longer a question about whether it is caused by something else. The syndrome has many effects. These are effects science has been able to pinpoint as a manifestation of the syndrome, even though they don't take place in every case. For example, certain facial features characteristics of the syndrome are not present in every child who has the syndrome, but we can know with certainty that they are pretty unique to the syndrome.

There are also less severe conditions caused by prenatal exposure to alcohol use (Fetal Alcohol Effects). These too have common manifestations that can be identified, though of course there are always going to be other factors involved (some smokers get lung cancer, some get emphysema, and some don't get sick at all...that doesn't mean that cancer can't be diagnosed and traced back to smoking). No, just because a child has ADHD doesn't mean that was caused by prenatal exposure to drugs. But prenatal exposure does put a child in a higher risk category for ADHD.

I don't think Sierra was looking for a definitive link, just a correlation as well as other people's experiences.

Yes! Thank you, Lauren. Indeed, I truly wasn't coming for a definitive link. I had researched this a little and didn't see a lot out there studying potty learning specifically in the context of polysubstance exposure prenatally (actually, too little research is on polysubstance abuse, which seems quite common in comparison to singular substance use), so I was just looking to collect some anecdotal information to give me a feel for how others have experienced potty learning in prenatally exposed kids. I was looking to get a vague idea of whether there could *possibly* be something to my suspicion that prenatal exposure *MIGHT* be one factor of many that can make potty learning challenging.

If others did happen to have similar experiences, which is why I addressed my question generally to parents with children who were prenatally exposed, I was hoping someone might have some suggestions for helping kids through this challenge.

Also, I think a deficit in "cause and effect" thinking, common to alcohol exposed children, would cause potential problems in potty learning.

As dfd grows, we are noticing more and more a deficit in "cause and effect" thinking. Not a huge deficit at this point, but definitely something real. I have heard that these challenges commonly start to surface around three, and yes, we're approaching that mark so it makes a lot of sense. What you are saying about that impacting potty learning would make a lot of sense to dfd.

But my bio daughter was 3.5 before potty training (quite capable but afraid of all things potty).

I think this is where I am seeing the difference between dfd and other kids around her age. She isn't capable but not doing it, and she isn't not yet capable but starting to build some of the pre-potty-learning foundational concepts. She doesn't even seem to notice when her diaper is wet. She just isn't aware of her bodily sensations in the least.

Like I said, I am very well aware that it is within the range of normal for her not to be ready yet. But she just seems a little "different" from other not-ready kids her age, and I was curious about that.

**For the record, I am well-educated in early childhood (and later childhood) development and have a lot of experience with kids dfd's age.

[Sierra]

Originally Posted by DTmama1

When it came to K, my fdd, she was like a 2 year old in all other aspects of her development, so I felt that it wasnt unusual for her to be fuctioning at a 2yo level in PTing too.

Thanks for sharing that. It is helpful to have a point of comparison. The thing about dfd is that she is bright and maybe "a little advanced" in several areas about her development. But then there are a just a few key areas where she seems delayed, even significantly. Then again, at her age, there is so much variability from kid to kid. The normal developmental spectrum is so broad, its very difficult to know with some of these things.

[Polliwog]

I agree with you. I've got a strong background in early childhood and elementary education as well as many friends (online and in real life) who have children who were prenatally exposed to large amounts of alcohol.

I do think that difficulties with cause and effect can have a big effect on potty learning. I think that you're on the right track. I've taught several children with FAS and FAE and they have tended to be more delayed with self help skills when cause and effect relationships aren't there. There are a lot of steps involved in learning to use the toilet and cause and effect is involved with many of them.

[SusanElizabeth]

The original post was altered, but as I remember, the OP said that her daughter was 2 1/2 (?) If I'm remembering that right, I still think that 2 1/2 is too young to decide that there's a problem. At 2 1/2 not being potty trained seems within the range of normal. If she were 3 1/2, I agree that you could say, " I wonder is this has been caused by FAS."

[Sierra]

Yes, I altered the original post because I wanted answers to my actual question. My dfd is over 2.5 but under 3. I'm *not* saying she should know how to use the potty by now. Multiple times I've said it is perfectly normal at this age not to know how to use the potty.

At 2 1/2 not being potty trained seems within the range of normal.

I originally said these exact words myself in my original post. I also said it in my subsequent posts.

I think you've misunderstood my question, which is why I backed up to explain a little more in my second post and also altered my first post. Let me try to make it more clear. Her not being potty trained is not where my question stems from. It's her body awareness and her sense of cause and effect, which DO seem delayed. What I am wondering is how those two things *might* impact potty learning. Again, I am well educated about early childhood development and have a *lot* of experience with kids in this age group, so if I am saying something seems different about dfd, you can safely bet that I have a realistic image of what is typical.

SusanElizabeth, I appreciate you trying to reassure me, but I would rather have an answer to my question than reassurance. I am not worried. I am just interested in hearing other's experiences. Perhaps you don't have experience in the arena of prenatal drug/alcohol exposure?

BethNC, thank you so much for sharing your experiences, educated guesses, and observations. That is very helpful, as have been the rest of the responses. I wonder how I could break down the steps of toilet learning more for dfd as she becomes more ready? It seems like for now the best strategy is to continue helping her develop awareness of her bodily sensations, perhaps through narration, and continue working on cause and effect.

[Polliwog]

I just have a minute since the kids are quite active but I'll post more later. Does your fd wear cloth diapers? That definitely helps with awareness of being wet (of course.) Continue talking through each step, reading books about using the potty, etc. You can be her external awareness until it, hopefully, kicks in for her.

I'll be back later.

[ShwarmaQueen]

Hoping not to answer incorrectly...:

My neice was exposed to alcohol/drugs in utero and I've definitely noticed a difference in her PT. She showed no interest in it until closer to 36 months and also has had a lot of accidents since she started wearing reg. undies (4 months now). And yes, there are also lots of other developmental delays that are apparent if you're aware of the signs of FAS.

[Sierra]

Originally Posted by ShwarmaQueen

Hoping not to answer incorrectly...:

I'm sorry if I am coming off cranky. I am trying to be clear, not cranky, though perhaps I've been a little cranky lately too.

Truly, I've appreciated all the responses.

My neice was exposed to alcohol/drugs in utero and I've definitely noticed a difference in her PT. She showed no interest in it until closer to 36 months and also has had a lot of accidents since she started wearing reg. undies (4 months now). And yes, there are also lots of other developmental delays that are apparent if you're aware of the signs of FAS.

Thank you. It is extremely helpful to continue reading more stories to help me learn what others' experiences have been.

[Sierra]

Originally Posted by BethNC

I just have a minute since the kids are quite active but I'll post more later. Does your fd wear cloth diapers?

During the day, dfd wears cloth.

Continue talking through each step, reading books about using the potty, etc. You can be her external awareness until it, hopefully, kicks in for her.

That's what I am hoping. Luckily, it wasn't all that long ago that ds learned to use the potty, so our lives are still pretty potty-centric. I think we may have to go back to smaller steps, though. I think I need to start a running body commentary with her to help her draw her attention to her body...the way we naturally all do with babes but that becomes more subtle with tots. I think I need to kick it back up again. "[dfd], you are eating cold berries. You have cold berry juice running down your chin." Or "[dfd] I wonder what that warm tea feels like going down your throat." Or "You are stepping on your toy..." (this kind of thing is all-day for her...she just doesn't realize what she is doing), "I wonder if that feels pokey on your feet."

Cause and effect...I guess I want to strengthen her overall sense of cause and effect...help that come more naturally for her. I wonder what else I can do to help enhance that. I almost feel like I need to go back to some of those cause and effect games we all play with babes. I don't know how she'd feel about that. But really, this is probably a very big issue because it will effect all areas of her life in a major way. What do you think helps with that?

I'll be back later.

Thanks! I appreciate the suggestions.

[ShwarmaQueen]

Originally Posted by Sierra

I'm sorry if I am coming off cranky. I am trying to be clear, not cranky, though perhaps I've been a little cranky lately too.

I understand!

[DTmama1]

My apologies.

To be more exact, our experience with K was that if she was bottomless (no panties or pants) she would go potty. If she had panties on she would go poop or pee in them and not even seem to notice what she was sitting in!

She was very hyposensitive to touch in other ways, so it could have been related. Her situation did feel a bit like laziness though, since if she thought candy would be provided she would try to go every 5 minutes...

[lauren]

One other "anecdote" on this site:

http://www.nathhan.com/fosterfas.htm

[IntlMom]

Ok, so I brand new here.....

but my son, who was adopted from Russia, and has FAS (verified alchol exposure) did not potty train (liquids or solids!) until he was nearly 5. He expressed no interest, nor understanding about it at all.

He is 10 now.....things are going "fine".

[Sierra]

Thank you folks. This discussion has indeed been useful. IntlMom, welcome!

~Sierra

P.S. Lauren, the link was so sad. The mom kept talking about things her son wasn't capable of, and most of the time she would list the things she does to help him. But then about a couple of things she was just like, "oh, we spank for that. We think he *should* know better."

[lauren]

Originally Posted by Sierra

Thank you folks. This discussion has indeed been useful. IntlMom, welcome!

~Sierra

P.S. Lauren, the link was so sad. The mom kept talking about things her son wasn't capable of, and most of the time she would list the things she does to help him. But then about a couple of things she was just like, "oh, we spank for that. We think he *should* know better."

Sorry about that Sierra! I didn't read the whole thing, only the part about delayed potty learning. Yes, I guess there are a lot of unfortunate situations out there...

[mamarhu]

My experience is with dev. delays in general, not especially FAS. So take this all with a grain of salt.

You have mentioned that bodily awareness and cause and effect planning are neither one going to work, at least at this stage. So I would ask, "What does work?" For other aspects of life, is this a kid who responds well to structured timetables? Maybe set a schedule that includes potty breaks at appropriate times? Picture schedules for the day? Get up, potty, breakfast, potty, playtime, potty, lunch, then potty, then nap etc. in laminated pictures?

I liked the suggestion above that you will need to provide the external signaling, till the internal systems can take over. If the timing is yours, rather than "child-led", I can see it might be a while of it being "your responsibility". Is that worth it to you? I am looking to adopt 4 year old twins who are not using the toilet. I am thinking about how OK with that I will be, and for how long. And what exactly I plan to do about it! These are current questions in my life - I am listening to other's comments as well.