Ivy and I were verbally assulted - Page 2

[muldey]

I'm so sorry this happened to you and Ivy.I don't know what I would have done,but I know I wouldn't have kept my cool.I would have flipped.It's horrible that a child can't even play in her own neighborhood without fear of being assaulted.I would call the police and CPS,I'm not a big fan either as I've had some bad experiences but it may be worth it.

[AndVeeGeeMakes3]

Why don't you just call the police (there is a non-emergency line or community information line in Ontario, I don't know about where you are) and just ask them for advice on how to handle the situation. It may be that they want to just record the incident in case it happens again, or they may just be able to tell you what steps you should take if it happens again. Since you're uncomfortable around police, it gives you the option of being anonymous if you don't want to pursue it.

My thoughts exactly.

[shellynnrn]

Wow! People just don't have boundries or manners anymore. It amazes me to watch the decline of western civilization. People insulting others at grocery stores and assaulting them on their front porch. I'm so sorry you and your DD endured that. s
I think you handled it wonderfully and calmly. I can't say for sure what I would have done, but I know my fist clenched while reading. I hope they move!

[EJP]

Wow - sorry this happened to you and your daughter. My two cents (for what it's worth):

1. Your daughter cannot "play" with this family anymore. Bar none. No exceptions - Even if the kids seem like they'd get along at some point. The kids are messed up and even when nice, have the capacity to be mean and spiteful. They have a screwed up home life and kids like that can have the tendency to take pleasure in other people's misery - classic bullying principles here - They have no power over their own lives, so they assert power over other kids (note the smiles on their faces when their "mother" was yelling at you.)

2. Never engage a woman like this - The moment you had the idea that she was unreasonable is the moment that you end the conversation "Get off my porch or I'm calling the police" and then slam the door - You can't reason with someone as irrational as that - She is a dysfunctional mess, she will only spew venom (as she did). Bullying principles apply here too - she knew that your daughter is vulnerable by way of her autism and she took full advantage by demeaning her and you. (your blood must have been boiling! the rage, the rage I would feel).

3. Not to get all zen on you but who needs that kind of negativity in one's life? Don't let a pathetic and ignorant person like that infect your life - Don't give her that power over you. Explain to your daughter that those neighbours have a sick family and don't know how to treat people. That she should feel sorry for them because they are miserable and unhappy. Reiterate how wonderful she is and that some people in life are just mean and unkind.

4. I don't know what I'd do re the police or CPS because I don't really know what would come of it - you'd expend a bunch of energy, rehash everything and nothing would change. I have no idea about your family situation but you might want to look into moving or getting your name on a waitlist for somewhere else. The problem with that is that dysfunction can often accompany any low income housing situation (it's reality - I know from childhood experience) so you might encounter the same kinds of people wherever you go. At the very least, keep her away from them and starting looking for some nice kid options - surely there are some nice kids around (how sad, if that's not true).

5. What about the housing authority - Do local public housing laws prohibit intimidation/harassment on public grounds...can you lodge a complaint? Maybe write your housing authority and explain what has happened.

[mamasaurus]

Originally Posted by Nature

I'm not a huge fan of police. (no disrespect meant to anyone) I am scared of them. I avoid calling them if I can.

Wow.

I don't know how to say this gently, but I'll try...

You need to protect your daughter. You are the only one who can. If you don't call the police and at least get their advice, god knows what those kids could end up doing to her.

Please, please - do not let her "play" with them again. Do not let her go near them again. She doesn't deserve this.

[Norasmomma]

Originally Posted by mamasaurus

Wow.

I don't know how to say this gently, but I'll try...

You need to protect your daughter. You are the only one who can. If you don't call the police and at least get their advice, god knows what those kids could end up doing to her.

Please, please - do not let her "play" with them again. Do not let her go near them again. She doesn't deserve this.

I agree with this, she pushed your DD into a closet and chopped off her hair, these children sound like they have serious issues. I'd be really concerned about this.

[Nature]

Originally Posted by mamasaurus

Wow.

I don't know how to say this gently, but I'll try...

You need to protect your daughter. You are the only one who can. If you don't call the police and at least get their advice, god knows what those kids could end up doing to her.

Please, please - do not let her "play" with them again. Do not let her go near them again. She doesn't deserve this.

I haven't let her outside since then actually. Its hard to explain but everyone around here is outside. We aren't near a big road so its fairly safe as far as road danger, which was my MAIN concern when I moved here. Now there are other concerns obviously.

We just moved here about 8 months ago. And we get along with most all the other neighbors. In fact, quite a few are great. We also have a few relatives here. Its a huge step up from where we were living before. (if you can believe that.)

I have never encountered an adult that was angry at me because of my child. I've never had anyone use my childs autism diagnosis against her. In fact, the only time I've had that happen was when my ex husband tried to use my diagnosis against me in court during our custody battle. Its a very bitter, angry thing to do I think.. and the whole thing just shocked me.

I will be calling the housing authority and letting them know what happened. I will work up the nerve to contact the police and at least ask them what to do, or even just ask them to make a note of it. Its my personal feelings that doing anything big will make the situation escalate even more, because thats just the type of person this is.

(she isn't the childrens mother, she's the aunt. A very young aunt. She has a 2 year old child herself. And most days she's sitting outside on a bench in barely there clothes, smoking, with the teenagers of the neighborhood.)

I haven't been letting Ivy play outside with those children. And I have told her she cannot play with them anymore, but.. why does that feel wrong to me???? It feels like I'm blaming and taking it out on the children for something that is the parents fault. (or aunts)

I hate conflict.

[FullMetalMom]

Originally Posted by Nature

I haven't been letting Ivy play outside with those children. And I have told her she cannot play with them anymore, but.. why does that feel wrong to me???? It feels like I'm blaming and taking it out on the children for something that is the parents fault.

I do not want to be rude to you, but I can't wrap my mind around this statement. You feel bad that you are "taking it out on the children"? These children tortured Ivy. Forget about the stupid adults, the kids have proved that they get enjoyment out of torturing and humiliating another human being. There is NO WAY IN HELL I would continue to live near people like this. An acquaintance of mine dealt with kids like this in his neighborhood when he was a child. They tied him to a tree and tried to set him on fire. He's still dealing with the trauma. I would be much less concerned about the mom/aunt's attitude than about the fact your daughter was assaulted and humiliated.

[mamamelia]

oh mama. again i'm so sorry this happened to your little girl... but you really need to stop thinking about whats fair regarding playing/going outside and start thinking about whats dangerous/safe. i hope in saying this, you don't think i am being rude - these are just my honest thoughts. right now, ivy interacting with those troubled kids is NOT safe, not in the least. my heart breaks that she endured what she did. it's not just "kids being mean" or "kids will be kids" - they have serious issues here and those kids need help before they are to interact with other kids. it's kids like that, that grow up to be kids like this.

as well, i wouldn't want to deal with someone who has a 2 year old baby and sits there half naked, smoking with the neighbourhood teens. i won't even start with that one. for all you know the aunt could be one major pyschopath too and you don't know what she could plan behind you or your daughters back. i would seriously consider re-locating. yes there are good/bad in every neighbourhood, but in some there are far more disturbed/bad than good. your main (or should i say only?) priority right now is protecting your little girl from further trauma. situations like this are tricky. you need to be smart and very careful about who you are talking to, who your daughter is interacting with and what you say about one person to the next even if they seem to support your train of thought. people are very two faced these days, i hardly have trust in anyone anymore. sad but true.

again.

[Cherry Alive]

I couldn't help reading your post and not responding. This is extreme, but I have to say it....

I had a close friend who hung out with kids like that when she was little. They even cut her hair. Their bullying progressed. They and their teen-aged baby-sitter ended up molesting her. Her mother did *nothing* bc they were "just kids." This friend has never been able to have a healthy normal relationship with another adult. My heart breaks when I think of her.

Please do NOT let your daughter around those kids, and please stop feeling guilty. While police and CPS can be scary, they exist precisely for situations like this.

If you can't move, please consider getting her into some self-defense classes so she understands how to deal with these people when they attack her.

And maybe it would be okay to stop telling her to feel sorry for the family. My mom is a very compassionate person (something I really love and respect about her). However, too often she said those types of things when I got bullied. It did *nothing* to teach me how to defend myself. I felt like I deserved being beat up and could do nothing to stop it. So, I let myself continue to be victimized up into high school. This is part of what has built up as over 30 years worth of unhealthy anger that I'm just now coming to work on.

While it is important to be compassionate, there comes a time to separate actions from psychology. The most important people you need to protect are yourself and your family. If you are still concerned for those other kids, call CPS so someday they may be able to get help, but they are not your #1 responsibility to care about—you and your daughter are. Please don't forget that.

[amma_mama]

Originally Posted by EJP

Wow - sorry this happened to you and your daughter. My two cents (for what it's worth):

1. Your daughter cannot "play" with this family anymore. Bar none. No exceptions - Even if the kids seem like they'd get along at some point. The kids are messed up and even when nice, have the capacity to be mean and spiteful. They have a screwed up home life and kids like that can have the tendency to take pleasure in other people's misery - classic bullying principles here - They have no power over their own lives, so they assert power over other kids (note the smiles on their faces when their "mother" was yelling at you.)

2. Never engage a woman like this - The moment you had the idea that she was unreasonable is the moment that you end the conversation "Get off my porch or I'm calling the police" and then slam the door - You can't reason with someone as irrational as that - She is a dysfunctional mess, she will only spew venom (as she did). Bullying principles apply here too - she knew that your daughter is vulnerable by way of her autism and she took full advantage by demeaning her and you. (your blood must have been boiling! the rage, the rage I would feel).

3. Not to get all zen on you but who needs that kind of negativity in one's life? Don't let a pathetic and ignorant person like that infect your life - Don't give her that power over you. Explain to your daughter that those neighbours have a sick family and don't know how to treat people. That she should feel sorry for them because they are miserable and unhappy. Reiterate how wonderful she is and that some people in life are just mean and unkind.

4. I don't know what I'd do re the police or CPS because I don't really know what would come of it - you'd expend a bunch of energy, rehash everything and nothing would change. I have no idea about your family situation but you might want to look into moving or getting your name on a waitlist for somewhere else. The problem with that is that dysfunction can often accompany any low income housing situation (it's reality - I know from childhood experience) so you might encounter the same kinds of people wherever you go. At the very least, keep her away from them and starting looking for some nice kid options - surely there are some nice kids around (how sad, if that's not true).

5. What about the housing authority - Do local public housing laws prohibit intimidation/harassment on public grounds...can you lodge a complaint? Maybe write your housing authority and explain what has happened.

: I would add to this, the following. If she shows up on your doorstep again, sternly let her know that she should leave your property or you will call the police and have her removed. Then shut door and follow through, if necessary. If you need to report 3 incidents of harassment before charges are filed, then do so, starting with this current incident.

Another : to all the PPs that expressed fear for your little girl. Do whatever you need to do to keep your daughter safe from these crazies (both the aunt and the children, who unfortunately have been "nurtured" to be bullies and also pose a danger to your daughter). While I would feel soory for those children on some level, in this situation you really need to put your own daughter first.

And, lastly, to you and Ivy.

[Nature]

Its only inside that I feel conflicted about the kids. Ivys inability to remember or know why I don't want her playing with them complicates things too, because then she sees me as taking something away from her rather than protecting her. And saying it once doesn't make it happen either. When I do let her back outside to play, I'll have to constantly take her away from those children over and over again. She is like an 8 month old baby and a light socket at times. I do it, but its far from easy.

Ivy is my main concern. Feeling conflicted about the other kids doesn't come before her. I told Ivy that the woman is a very angry woman and although I don't know why she's so mad, I do know that she can't talk to people that way. Its not right. And that I want her to stay away from that woman and those kids because they are not nice people.

I saw the woman yesterday. She was sitting outside smoking with the teenagers on the bench when I went to the bus stop to pick up the kids. I took my husband with me just in case she decided to start trouble. She didn't.

I spoke with yet another person in the neighborhood and they said they had an issue with her about a week ago. His 9 year old son was playing football with another boy, and the womans nephew (remember she's the aunt not the mother) ran by and grabbed the ball and started running. Our friends son asked for the ball back please and he kept running. Auntie was encouraging him to run away faster and laughing. Eventually our friends son had to run after him and tackle him to get the ball back. No one was hurt. Auntie however wasn't happy. She ran over and started screaming at our friends son and telling him never to do that again, and that if he touched the boy again she would kick his a$$ and beat the @#it out of him.

It would appear she has anger issues. You all are right. Not my responsibility. If she treats strangers this way I'm sure she treats those kids great.

Four of us in the neighborhood are filing complaints with the management company about her. The kicker? She isn't supposed to be here because she's not on the lease. They have her living here illegally, so perhaps it'll be easier to get her out.

During the week, Ivy is in school all day and then she has dance class in the afternoons, and then she stays inside afterwards. After socializing all day in school, she wants nothing to do with socializing at home with the neighborhood kids.

I know its not Ivy that is doing any of this. She has had ZERO behavioral issues in school at all. And she goes to full day K. Two months of good behavior, her communication book is full of praise. Suddenly she tries to play outside here at home, and she's accused of pulling hair, spitting, hitting, screaming, etc... which says to me that other kids are antagonizing and since there are no parents watching them, it escalates. For the most part, the other kids in the neighborhood know to come to me if there is an issue. I can see her from the window when I do let her go out to play, and she isn't allowed to go inside peoples houses unless she asks me first. (and my rule has been for months now, DON'T even ask me to go to that girls house because the answer is NO. That won't change. I have told her that its not safe inside her house because there are no parents watching them.)

Basically, the only days she wants to play outside are Sat and Sunday. I will have to figure out a way for her to get outdoor time without her being around that woman and her family.

Thank you all for your replies. No one was too harsh. I'm not overly concerned about their family. I am overly critical of my part in fights, thats what the issue is. I overanalyze what happened because I'm very confused, and sometimes that can look like I care more about their feelings. Really I don't care about them at all.

I did write to Ivys teacher and let her know very very briefly that an adult neighbor called her derogatory names the other day, and that she was very upset by it. I like to keep that communication open so that if Ivy wants to talk to someone about it she can and they won't be all confused by what she says.

to everyone that was bullied as a child. I was too, I know how much it can stay with you. I really really don't want that for Ivy. Its just so hard when she's screaming and crying that she WANTS to play with these kids, and she doesn't appear to even have the ability to KNOW that mean is MEAN.. and just because they smile at her doesn't mean they won't be mean again. The on again off again thing is heartbreaking. "Ivy wanna play?" 2 minutes later, "I HATE YOU! I'm not your friend anymore!" and Ivy is in tears. Maybe its normal kid behavior? I don't even know whats normal anymore.. bah...

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

Oh mama! I'm so sorry. I just want to give you both a huge hug!!

Your last post brought tears to my eyes. My oldest son has had problems with the same boy for the last two years at school. The kid can be nice to him one moment and mean the next, and ds1 is so trusting that he doesn't see the meaness coming. The teachers have actually been actively keeping them apart because of how this kid treats him and they know that ds1 falls for the niceness everytime.

[Miss Information]

Originally Posted by Nature

"Ivy wanna play?" 2 minutes later, "I HATE YOU! I'm not your friend anymore!" and Ivy is in tears. Maybe its normal kid behavior? I don't even know whats normal anymore.. bah...

It happens more often these days, but it shouldn't be considered "normal". Parents just don't have any idea what their kids are doing, so they don't step in and tell them it's wrong to do that. If it were my child, I'd be out there by her side. In fact, I am out there with my kids. I do have a 5 year old that has more social issues. I am outside when the kids are outside in case any intervention is necessary. I don't subscribe to the "let the kids work it out" just yet, because dd's emotional abilities to work things out just aren't there. I'm one of the few moms on my block that is actually out with my kids, but it saves a lot of heartache. And it works out well: any child is welcome in my yard, until they start causing trouble, then they get sent away. So far, we have had few problems because the kids know I'm there to intervene.

The kids know we have rules in my yard and they so far obey most of them. When they don't they get to go play their way in their own yards. They know I will probably have conversations with them about play fighting (no re-enacting of violent video games in my yard) and language (no name calling or teasing). Sharing is a little bit of a harder issue, because it's something my two younger kids are working on. But we still have rules about that. I also worry slightly because my dds play with the neighborhood boys, and I wonder if any "show me yours and I'll show you mine" would ever occur. I would hope not, but you never know.

For now, I'm there to stop things before they escalate. I would rather it be inconvenient to me, than to have major issues happen.

[sahmama_12]

Hugs to you and Ivy, Nature. I just had to throw in some support, this whole thread has made me cry (course I'm pregnant so.. ) but just know when she is really upset and wants to play with them you do so good by that girl. Sorry I'm gushy this trimester.

[Nature]

I wish our yards worked the way yours do. We have small fenced in backyards, but when I don't let Ivy out front.. the kids climb the fences in the back and try to get Ivy to open the gate and come out. I can hang out front with her, but the other kids don't want to hang out here. They don't want to stay in one place to "play," they want to roam everywhere. So basically that means we go outside and they call to her to "come play" and she can't. So they run off and she stands here crying.

Its a very ... "free" community. Honestly its been like that wherever we've lived and all of my childhood too. Kids don't play at just each others yards around here. Its a roving expedition. My kids are in bed at 7pm and we can hear kids of all ages running around screeching and laughing everywhere, even in our own yard.

[EJP]

Good luck with everything. Again, so sorry that you have to deal with that women and those children.

Just to clarify on my earlier comments, I didn't mean to say that the wrongdoers should be absolved because of their dysfunctional family situation ("feel sorry for them"), I just meant that Ivy should never take to heart what someone like that says - Their words/actions are cruel, dysfunctional, spiteful, ignorant, etc. Rather, she needs to be reminded (even if you think it isn't registering - it's still positive energy) about how great she is - just trying to empower you - that's all I meant by those words.

Ok, to digress a bit - just heard about this mom whose autistic child was non-verbal - she started making home videos of everyday social settings and playing the videos to her child (this arose because all of the professionals wrote her son off) - one day, he justs starts talking and "getting" social interactions. Maybe this is a technique to show Ivy about nice kids and mean kids....just a thought.

[**Cat**]

Originally Posted by Nature

long and rambly.. sorry..

Ivy and a little 7 year old girl in the neighborhood had a fight. They are always fighting. This little girl is an angry child a lot of the time and says things that she knows will upset Ivy. Ivy pulled her hair. She then came inside to tattle on herself. (she always does this. She beats the other party to the door and then cries and screams and wets herself when I have to actually answer the door and let the other person speak.) So I fixed the problem. Play nice kids. I sent them back out. All was fine.

About 3 minutes later Ivy comes screaming inside, and then there was pounding on the door. I answer it and a skinny woman is on my porch, younger than me. She starts yelling at me, telling me Ivy spit in the other girls face. I ask her if she's the girls mother. She gets insulted and says its not my business, and yells at me saying I have an attitude. I explain that I don't remember seeing her before, and she says we've met before a few times. She gave me a look that said she didn't believe me. The "Oh ya whatever" look. She says that Ivy is a hellion and that before we moved in the neighborhood was fine and they had no issues. I try to tell her that actually.. we lived here first, and she interrupts me to tell me I have an attitude and can I please not speak to her in that voice? .... finally I say, "This is my porch, if I want to have an attitude I will." because I wasn't! And I was tired of her yelling at me!

She rambles on about the spitting. Now, I know for a fact that Ivy didn't spit on her because she would have told me right away. She said, "No mama! Only pulled her hair like this. Like this! I didn't spit. No no." And after all the things this girl has done to Ivy......... So I attempt to address the so called spitting, I wanted to explain that Ivy might not understand everything thats said to her, since the woman said that she was just talking to Ivy sternly and telling her she had to be good when she spit on the girl. So I say, "I'm not sure if you know or not, but Ivy is autistic. So sometimes it..." and she cut me off screaming at me.

"Yes I know she is! But that doesn't give her the ____ing right to spit on someone else! Thats wrong! And when I catch mine doing something wrong I punish them! I can't beat em. I can't lock em up. What else do you expect me to do?! Ooooooh the autistic girl! Whatever. It aint a ___ing free pass." So I try to tell her that I know the girls fight a lot, she says that they come to her all the time and its Ivys fault most of the time. I'm trying really hard to listen to her words and just keep my face neutral.

Then she keeps insulting Ivy and saying its all her fault. I say, "Well they aren't perfect, your neice has her moments too." and suddenly she starts hurling even more insults my way.

"Keep your ___ing autistic freak a$$____ daughter away from my kids!"
I said, "Oh thats mature." and she keeps screaming and calling me really nasty names. She kept screaming how horrible my daughter was. So I said, would you like the steak knives I took away from your neice? I still have them in the house. She told me to keep them and slice my throat open and die. She screamed more "autistic freak" things. "Of course your kids are messed up! Just look at you! You ___ing freak." she screamed.

My daughter was there the whole time. She heard everything. The other kids were with the other woman, and they stood there smiling the whole time.

Afterwards Ivy was crying saying, "I want to move." over and over again. And, "Why does she hate me before she doesn't know me yet?" And I don't have an answer except, some people can be mean like that.

I feel sick about this.

The other people? They're nothing good. Police and CPS are at their house reguarly. They have four kids unsupervised there. Including twin infants. (just last month police were called because they left the babies alone in the house for hours while they went to a baseball game.) The brother and sister are 7 and 9 and treat Ivy very badly. In this neighborhood though you can't just stay away from people. Its a close neighborhood. (gotta love low income housing) So Ivy will have to interact with the children at some point, and she doesn't even know how NOT to. I tell her to stay away from them, but that only lasts a few minutes and still she says, "Why?" and doesn't understand.

I've dealt with the kids on my own since I moved here. When the girl shoved Ivy in a closet and hacked off all her hair I should have called the police. But I didn't. I decided to just suck it up and not allow my child inside their house instead. Knives, spray paint, fingernail polish dumped over her head.. the list goes on. I dealt with all of it without knocking on their door, because #1 they were never home and #2 why bother? If they let their kids act like that, what good is it going to do to say anything?

And they have the nerve to scream at me.

I honestly did not recognize her. I can see now that she thought I was being rude and dismissive. However I had no idea who she was.

I just can't believe someone said those things about my daughter. And in front of her. No one in the neighborhood likes them, and their days are numbered living here before housing kicks them out. I just can't believe an adult would say those things...

I am so sorry you have to be dealing with this. What a horrible situation to be in.

[mamarhu]

My experience with Low Income Housing was that the management really wanted to keep the trouble-makers out. I have never seen myself as the "snitch" type, but I would have reported this incident (as well as the earlier ones) to the tenant response committee. Do you have any non-police alternatives?

[mamasaurus]

Originally Posted by Nature

Four of us in the neighborhood are filing complaints with the management company about her. The kicker? She isn't supposed to be here because she's not on the lease. They have her living here illegally, so perhaps it'll be easier to get her out.

This is encouraging. Keep us posted...

Originally Posted by Nature

Basically, the only days she wants to play outside are Sat and Sunday. I will have to figure out a way for her to get outdoor time without her being around that woman and her family.

Can you go somewhere else? A park or playground?

Originally Posted by Nature

"Ivy wanna play?" 2 minutes later, "I HATE YOU! I'm not your friend anymore!" and Ivy is in tears. Maybe its normal kid behavior? I don't even know whats normal anymore.. bah...

Whether or not this is "normal", it is not good behavior. Forget about the word normal - think about how it makes you *feel*. If the feeling is negative, then the behavior is wrong.