Minimum schooling age getting lower and lower - Page 3

[sarathan]

My mom and I were *just* talking about this we totally agree that the age is getting younger and younger! What's next? School for newborn babies?? It's just getting ridiculous. There is a line between an appropiate age and inappropiate age to attend school and I think it's safe to say that our society has crossed that line.

[richella]

I think the distinction between day care and school is very significant. MIL is on a preschool board and she says it's "just semantics." But I think that's very misleading. I'd be so much more comfortable with dd in day care a couple half days a week than in the preschool she's in. I like to keep things clear --who benefits, and how? Why should I do x,y, or z? What are the goals? I'd even go so far as to say that school should NOT be expected to fulfill the requirements of day care, that is, it should be designed with the best interests of the students rather than the convenience of the parents. I'm in favor of low cost day care, but I want it to be clear what the purpose is.

From what I've read, there is no proven benefit of early formal education, except for children who are otherwise at high risk. I absolutely believe that we need to do everything possible to help those children, but to lump all children together and say everyone needs to be in a classroom from 3 or 4 or 5, or any age, really, it's just sadly ignorant. Because the biggest thing I've learned from parenting is how truly individual all children are, in their needs and their abilities, and as a society we are so poor at addressing this individuality. Not just in schools. To stay on topic --for kids who are not at risk, there is no need for preschool.

(And everyone can stop telling me "Put dd in preschool, you'll want the break!" cause I get no break, I have a 17 mo at home anyway!)

[eepster]

Originally Posted by richella

I think the distinction between day care and school is very significant. MIL is on a preschool board and she says it's "just semantics." But I think that's very misleading. I'd be so much more comfortable with dd in day care a couple half days a week than in the preschool she's in. I like to keep things clear --who benefits, and how? Why should I do x,y, or z? What are the goals? I'd even go so far as to say that school should NOT be expected to fulfill the requirements of day care, that is, it should be designed with the best interests of the students rather than the convenience of the parents. I'm in favor of low cost day care, but I want it to be clear what the purpose is.

From what I've read, there is no proven benefit of early formal education, except for children who are otherwise at high risk. I absolutely believe that we need to do everything possible to help those children, but to lump all children together and say everyone needs to be in a classroom from 3 or 4 or 5, or any age, really, it's just sadly ignorant. Because the biggest thing I've learned from parenting is how truly individual all children are, in their needs and their abilities, and as a society we are so poor at addressing this individuality. Not just in schools. To stay on topic --for kids who are not at risk, there is no need for preschool.

(And everyone can stop telling me "Put dd in preschool, you'll want the break!" cause I get no break, I have a 17 mo at home anyway!)

I hate the way preschool and daycare are getting blurred. They do serve two distictly different purposes, and the children who go to one often have very different needs than the children who go to the other. A lot of the preschools that I looked at for DS were so focused on trying to fulfill both school and daycare needs, that they over looked many of the needs of the children attending.

When I first called the preschool I did send DS to, the person on the phone started to explain all the things that made the school an extremely inconvienient daycare. I cut her off with "don't worry I'm looking for a preschool not a daycare, I work from home."

So many of the "schools" we looked at had a strict drop and go policy, long nap times (DS can nap at home why should I pay for him to do it somewhere else etc.) These things are convienient if you need daycare, but then I would want something less activity driven then most of them were, since they were trying to also fulfill the "school" roll. Except for the nap time, most of these places had almost no down time. They rarely provided the warmth and freedom that I would want DS to have if he needed to spend all day somewhere. They often had school like vacation scheduals, that would leave parent needing back up childcare anyway.

If I needed daycare I would probably look for a WAHM/D who provided in home daycare while they were staying home with their own kids.

The schools that really fill the preschool roll well, would all make terrible daycare options. Like the school we chose for DS has tons of off days, wants parents involved, is only 2 1/2 hours for his age group, etc. I rarely even bother to drive home after dropping DS off since I'll be back so soon, I just hang out in a nearby coffee shop or go to the supermarket. One of the other schools we looked at (and wanted to send DS to, but couldn't afford) would be even less convienient as daycare.

I do feel that everyone should get the opportunity to have high quality daycare if they need it, and access to high quality preschool if they want it, but by trying to lump the two together niether is fully realised. Ofcourse if one doesn't need daycare, and ones child doesn't want to go to preschool, then there is no need to go to either.

[RomanGoddess]

Well, I guess I have a different perspective. I grew up in Canada at a time when there was no school before age 5. All my siblings were much older than I and already in school, so I was at home with my mom. I remember being soooooo bored. I would have LOVED to attend a preschool (NOT a daycare - the two are very different) at the very least half day every day. From the age of 3 would have been perfect.

Now, I realize there are lot so kids out there who get plenty of stimulation at home from other siblings and playgroups, but there are also plenty of kids who simply do not - whose parents work, who are stuck at home with the same old caregiver or grandparent or busy parent every single day, with only one sibling or even no other child at all to talk to or play with, who spend hours every day in front of the TV...

I live in Europe now. Where we live, universal preschool starts at age three. It is by no means mandatory but most kids do attend. My daughter is an only child and personally, I simply cannot for the life of me IMAGINE her staying at home all day. Maybe that makes me an inadequate parent but I just know that she would be bored out of her mind and I would not have the means or the desire to be her teacher and playmate all the time. And I could organize 20 playgroups, outings, you name it, per week and she would still be bored the rest of the time. She is a natural extrovert and loves company of others.

So, for me anyway, universal, free, good quality and age appropriate preschool from age three makes perfect sense. I don't think it needs to be mandatory but it should be definitely available.

[RomanGoddess]

Originally Posted by Quindin

In Denmark where we used to live, kids start at 6 or 7. Yes, most do go to daycare from 1yo (fully paid maternity leave until that time), but they don't do any academic work at all before school age.

I'm pretty sure that kindergarten in Denmark really is kindergarten and not just daycare. Do they do activities to practice fine motor skills? Do they learn how to spell their name? Do they know how to count to 10? Then they are probably learning some basic things and therefore, like all European kindergarten programs, while it might not be "academic", they are certainly normal, age-appropriate stuff and not just in daycare.

[GuildJenn]

I went to JK in Toronto in the 75/76 school year (my bones are creaking...) and I have intense memories of how amazingly fun it was. At that time it was a half day (really, about 2.5 hours), we went outside to play on the playground every day it wasn't pouring rain or bitingly cold, and the class was not reading-focused; it had huge play areas, sand table, water table, finger painting, etc.

Weirdly I still have two friends from that class.

So, I think the right school can be great. I really think it depends on the particular child, what the length of time, programme, etc. is. If I were homeschooling, I wouldn't wait for my child to turn 6 before doing cool/fun things and at that time, school had a lot of that. They may have changed the curriculum; we're not quite there yet so I am not sure.

[MattBronsil]

From a personal level, what is scary about many of the laws that are being suggested is how they harm quality schools. There was a law introduced in California recently that got shot down, but it was scary. I forget it exactly, but I think it is that part of the law was going to make a mandatory pre-k class and another part of the law was going to say that preschool and kindergarten had to be separate.

@@

What a mess that would have been for Montessori schools in CA.

[straighthaircurly]

In my state, children aren't required to attend school until 7yo. A lot of people are surprised to hear that because they assume K is mandatory. Our state has lots of early childhood education programs and is a model to many other states but those programs are parent/child programs (not child alone). I think a lot of times the impression is that kids are going to be required to attend school earlier and earlier but realistically I don't think government will ever be able to afford that.

[WC_hapamama]

I have 1 of those kids who isn't reading at grade level in the 3rd grade (he's about a year behind), and this is even after repeating first grade... the teachers acted like a phonics based program should work perfectly fine for a child with a severe articulation delay.

He really didn't start making real progress until they put him in resource... and this was with 3 years of preschool before kindergarden, and many years of speech therapy.

That said, my 2 other school aged kids (1 older and 1 younger than my 3rd grader) were reading at grade level by the end of first grade and the end of kindy.

All 3 of my older kids went to at least one year of preschool. The preschool we use in NOT a daycare, but a part time program... 3 days a week, for 3 hours a day for the 4-5 year old program. The program for the 2 1/2 year olds at the same preschool meets only twice a week for an hour and a half each day. It's a play centered preschool... no TV's or computers involved.

[CarrieMF]

In my area things are the same as they were when I was a child. 1/2-3/4 of the kids attend a Playschool. It is not a Preschool. Playschools are not academic driven. THey are all learning through play based. The most academic thing they do is calender time. There are 4 or 5 playschools here. There are 2 preschools which is kindergarten at age 3 & is for low income & high risk kids. 1 is run through the public school division so they don't pay for it, but they have to apply & meet certain specifications to be accepted. The other is run provincial government run through the Native Friendship center. The qualifications are the same as the public preschool.

Playschool kids who are 3 go once a week for 2hours. Playschool kids who are 4 go once or twice a week for 2 hours. Preschool kids go 4 days a week for 2.5 hours a day. In the preschool through the Native Friendship Center, I believe it's all day long. I know they teach them more things like brushing their teeth in the morning & such. They feed them 2-3 meals a day.

Kindergarten starts at 4-5 depending when your birthday is(cut off is Dec 31). I don't know if it's mandatory, I don't think it is. It is all day, every other day. This year the Catholic system(also public) switched to all day every other day from every day half day.

There are no requirements for going into Kindergarten. There are kids who are learning how to read & kids who don't know how to hold a pencil.

[JElaineB]

I specifically DID NOT send my child to preschool. I work FT so for the last 3 years he attended a child care center (we call it "daycare") from about 7:30-4:30 each day. It is play-based and multi-age, kids from 2 and up are mixed. Kids get to choose their activities throughout the day with a basic schedule based around meals/circle time/rest time etc. DS is in K this year. He is loving it and was ready for it (he just turned 6 at the end of September). I do not believe in mandatory preschool. I simply don't think it is necessary. If some parents want to send their kid to preschool, or if the state wants to pay for it, fine, as long as it is optional. I do not think my son was ready for school structure until this year. Now he is ready for it and is thriving in the school environment.

[Anglyn]

Originally Posted by minkajane

This is a little bit of a vent. I was thinking last week about how kids used to start school at 6 or 7. Then it went to 5. Now kids are expected to go to preschool at 3 or 4 and people keep going on and on about how very important preschool is. It crossed my mind that eventually daycare/preschool is going to be "mandatory" just like public school is starting at the age of 1 or 2. That idea scared the hell out of me. Not two days after I had this thought, I saw an editorial in the local paper about how education MUST start at birth. It was written by a former teacher. She talked about how by the time they get to kindergarten, they've already learned so many bad habits and it's too late for some of them to become good readers or even good citizens.

This freaks me out so much. It feels like we're heading to the point of having kids raised by the government entirely. Mandatory boarding schools even. I know that's probably a little melodramatic, but government education just keeps expanding. From the ages of 3 to 18, most kids are in school. Then they go to college and that's at least 4 more years (even longer now to get a bachelor's degree - it takes most people 5 or 6 years). Used to be with a diploma, you could get a decent job and take care of your family. Now you have to have a bachelor's to make decent money. How much longer before you have to have a master's degree to be able to support your family on one paycheck? It just seems like the push for the government to be in control is getting younger and lasting longer so that they can make sure you're a "good citizen" and be the kind of person they want you to be. KWIM?

Actually, now they say you really need a masters degree.

[moonshoes]

I hAve to say I was completely horrified when my sister informed me that my nephew would be entering kindy next fall at age four - he won't turn 5 until December. WTF??? (We are in the USA in Massachusetts.)

[JElaineB]

Originally Posted by moonshoes

I hAve to say I was completely horrified when my sister informed me that my nephew would be entering kindy next fall at age four - he won't turn 5 until December. WTF??? (We are in the USA in Massachusetts.)

I started kindergarten in Massachusetts 34 years ago when I was 4. I didn't turn 5 until late December of that year (Dec 31 was the cutoff date). I was always the youngest in my class and hated it. My mother later held back my sister and brother who had early December and late November birthdays because she realized it wasn't good to send me that young. I had hoped Mass. had changed the laws by now (I currently live in a state that has a September 15 cutoff and I am very glad for that), but I guess they haven't.

[moonshoes]

well, I think it actually depends on the school district. She is in Worcester and the cutoff is Dec. 15th. In our town the cutoff is Sept. 1st, which I think makes a bit more sense. DD's b'day is August 29th, and if she goes to school next year I will hold her to second grade instead of 3rd - she'll be the oldest in the class instead of the youngest and graduate h.s. when she is almost 19, but hopefully it will be a help to her.

[Tapioca]

In BC they are talking about introducing full day school for 3 & 4 year olds. IMO, it's a sop to the daycare crisis. This isn't about what the kids need, it's about what the parents want. it makes me crazy. I don't know if it's really going to happen but they were looking for input on the idea a few months ago.

DD is in part time, 2 hour preschool 3 x a week. It's basically art. It's fine with me. I'm not crafty at ALL, so i think she needs it.

That's it. That's all I got.

[avivaelona]

It was my understanding that any benefits of HeadStart programs had worn off by 6th grade at the latest -- most by 3rd grade.

This is not true. Early studies measured IQ gains only and by 3rd grade any gains in IQ had worn off, but this makes no sense as a measure anyway since IQ is theoretically immutable (if not in practice)

Later studies have shown several impressive benefits of which some continue even into adulthood. Remember its only supposed to be a "head start" if you throw those head start kids into crappy failing schools after head start than its not surprising if some don't sustain their gains. Despite that though there are some things that are maintained including a higher graduation rate from high school.

Pre-school isn't for everyone, and should never be mandatory. But my three year old would NOT benefit from being home another year, he's bored out of his mind at home. He needs a level of activity and interaction I just can't provide on my own. I was struggling to provide him with it, and with another baby on the way I know I just can't.

Now if I were a different person, or if he were a different kid that wouldn't be true so I'd hate to see it be compulsory but it should be available and if it were possible I'd love for it to be free...we really struggle to pay for it for him.

[MichaelsSahm]

My DS NEVER went to pre-school or daycare. And he is actually doing better and is ahead of his class then those kids in his class that have been in pre-school. The kids that have been in pre-school are actually really struggeling. I understand that for some parents, who work full time, pre-school/daycare is something they need.
But this whole attitude of pre-k is NEEDED is a bunch of youknowwhat to me.
Let kids be kids.

[EFmom]

I don't see this at all. I'm in my late 40s and started school at 5. My kids started school at 5, although actually most of their classmates's parents had them delay starting a year, so my kids are younger than their peers.

[pigpokey]

I had a sad (for me) conversation with another mom the other day. Our daughters are in a gymnastics class for 4-5 year olds together. So making conversation I asked her if her daughter was in Pre-K or K. She said her daughter was old enough for K but was repeating private "Pre-K" (non academic -- not the public Pre-K curriculum) because she met with the principal of her public elementary school where they plan to send her and he told her that *because she didn't know her letters* it would be best to hold her out another year and start K at age 6.

I did make sure to tell her (between sympathetic nods of how-reasonable) that a friend of mine's son could not read at this public school at the end of K, and that 1st grade is still an entry level grade in this state and that she should know that if she feels her daughter has caught up, she is entitled to direct-enroll in 1st grade.

I am very glad that my kids will attend neither preschool nor K.

Originally Posted by moonshoes

I hAve to say I was completely horrified when my sister informed me that my nephew would be entering kindy next fall at age four - he won't turn 5 until December. WTF??? (We are in the USA in Massachusetts.)

Don't know why this is weird. When and where I grew up the cutoff was the end of the calendar year (Florida). Here in Georgia it's Sept 1. I don't see the big deal.