Need advice - disrespect - school-related

[Ellien C]

So today, I get this note home from my DD's kindy teacher:

DD is continuously mean to her classmates. She was disrespectful to a teacher in the cafeteria. This issue has been addressed multiple times. It has become a big problem.

There is some kind of form I'm supposed to sign. Ideas on what to do here?

1) She doesn't want to talk about it at all and has been crying.
2) They are on a behavior color system and she's had several (level 1) offenses. This seems to be another level, but I'm not clear on the whole color coding thing.
3) We've agreed to talk about this after dinner.
4) She DOES have trouble relating to people
5) She complains about a lack of friends and says no one likes her - but she seems to be playing with kids whenever I look in on her.
6) We've agreed to talk about it after dinner - I'd like her to be a bit more relaxed about it than she is now. DH likes to push the issues, but I find I can get her to open up more in the bath or right at bed time.
7) Current 5 yo story is that the teacher is lying, she didn't do it (what I don't know) wasn't there and it's not fair, people are making her do things she can't and all the other kids make her mean.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

I think it would be better to get the specifics from the teacher, as the note she sent was pretty vague. I think your DD may not know what happened, really, not exactly... and she may make something up because she doesn't know but wants to give an answer. She also might have trouble reading social cues and just not understand the situation enough to be able to explain it to you.

It sounds like she's having trouble in school and she's sad and angry. I think until you get specifics from the teacher it might be better to let her express her feelings and her interpretation of things, without judgement and without suggesting other ways she could handle it, and without making her feel put on the spot.

[Just1More]

I remember being about 5 and doing something I knew was wrong, but that apparently happened at the same time something else happened that I didn't know was wrong. I got in BIG trouble, but I never equated it with the second offense...just with the thing I knew was wrong and did anyway, but that no one ever knew about. In fact, I don't even know WHY I got in trouble to this day...and I've asked lots of times. My mom doesn't even remember the incident at all.

So, I agree...maybe she doesn't really know what's going on. I'd talk to the teacher to get a better feel of things. Oh, and another thought. My dd (3yo) and I keep having problems with being silly while eating (seriously, throwing her head back and laughing...fake...but hysterically...with food in her mouth, and get 1 yo ds laughing, too, arguing and back-talking EVERYTHING, and interrupting ALL THE TIME. So, I keep saying don't, please stop, I give a reason, etc. Then...one day I said, "Do you know what choking is?" She didn't. I explained...and she hasn't laughed like that since. She honestly didn't know. Same with arguing and interrupting. I keep telling her not to...and she is NOT stopping. I explained it much better...and she's stopped. She really didn't understand what I was saying. Maybe you could clarify what's expected of her, and define clearly what things are called, and what's not okay?

[mamaduck]

I agree with BC that you need some very specific information and examples of what is going on. It frustrates me when adults talk about children "being disrespectful" without giving specifics. Your DD very likely has no idea what it means to "be respectful." That is such a vague, abstract concept. It needs to be broken down into very specific actions, words, and tone of voice so that you can practice concrete skills.

[Ellien C]

Thanks. So, how should I approach this?

1) email the teacher this weekend?
2) wait for parent-teacher conference which is this Wednesday?
3) something else?

It's also bothering me that the teacher is using labels for the person rather than the behavior. I've always been taught to talk about "feeling shy" or using mean words, as opposed to BEING shy or being mean. This makes such a huge difference to me.

But since my daughters words seem to be such an issue, I almost feel like a hypocrite bringing this up with the teacher. I believe this is only her second year teaching.

She has told me that she butted someone in line and got caught and the recess guardian (she doesn't know her name) told her something (she doesn't know what) and then she said "no." That part she remembers.

I was trying to help her find new ways of expressing herself and acting. After we talked, I asked her what she would do differently if she had the day to do over. She said the person she butted wouldn't mind because she would only be in front of her for a little while. I tried to talk about how she only got to change her reactions and her words, not anyone else's. This whole line of questioning got no where.

DH tried to get her to imagine how she would feel if someone else did that to her - but she's either defensive (she does butt me all the the time) or unable to conceive of "the other." Is 5 too young for that sort of thing?

While the teacher wasn't very specific, I have seen the sorts of things she might be talking about. At a b-day party a little boy from her old school came up to her and she said "go away." And then he told me she was being mean and I pulled her aside and said she needed to use "kind words" and if she really needed some space she could say "excuse me" and then SHE should walk away.

[mamaduck]

I really think you need to speak with the teacher. Notes are very difficult to read into, and I'd hate to see you judge the teacher too much before speaking with her about the issue. I think the next step is to seek more information. Ask open ended questions, like, "Can you tell me more about DD's behavior toward her friends?" "Can you tell me more about the incident in the cafeteria?"

I don't think the note from the teacher was exactly "labeling the person." Labeling the person would be to say that "Your kid is mean." Saying that she is "being mean" is descriptive of what she sees. You need more specfics, for sure. But the teacher doesn't seem to be judging your dd's heart. Just her actions.

She may be a little young for high levels of empathy. Taking another person's POV is fairly abstract. But I wouldn't give up on it. You can draw pictures, show her pictures, read her stories that show respectful and disrespectful behaviors. Point to the character who is hurt by the behaviors, and ask her what feeling she thinks that person might have. Make it very concrete, and visual.

I would also try to make a list of "rude" statements that she is prone to making, and create alternatives. Have her practice saying things like, "Can I have some space," instead of "Go away." And "Can we talk about this?" instad of "No."

Use of the word "No" is a hard concept to teach. Most adults feel immediately triggered when a child responds to a direction with the word "no." Most adults would feel that you should teach her never to say "no" to a teacher. OTOH, as parents we want our kids to feel comfortable using the word "no" if an adult asks them to do something dangerous or hurtful. I would try to teach her only to say "no" to a grown-up if the grown-up is asking her to do something that will hurt someone, or if she is saying "no" about her own body. (Ie. -- the grown-up is touching/hurting her, or asking her to drink/eat something she doesn't want.) She should, however, follow regular directions at school without saying "no," so long as nobody is in danger. (I feel for caffeteria teachers -- its not a fun duty!)

[TinyMama]

I would call the teacher on the phone on Monday, to let her know that you recognize the urgency of the situation.
Not sure where you are, but where I've taught, it was a well-known fact that it's usually a bad idea to write a specific note/email to a parent--better to explain over the phone, or face to face.
It's still early in the year--is it possible that your DD is having adjustment problems?

[Noah's mommy]

From an elementary teacher's perspective...I would definitely email the teacher over the weekend AND give a call first thing Monday morning. I would recommend just leaving your name with the secretary since she is unlikely to be able to speak immediately, and ask the teacher to call you asap. That way the teacher can call you when she has some time to discuss the situation. That note seems awfully vague, so I would keep the email short and to the point (while still being polite) so that the teacher understands how important the situation is. I would try and get a specific story about the incident and ask what type of language is used at school when your daughter is having difficulty. That way you and the teacher can work together (assuming she is willing) to find a common language to help your dd make the necessary adjustments to school. I ALWAYS find it so much more helpful when parents and I can use the same prompts, reminders, and general language to help students. If you find the language used by the teacher unacceptable and you have something used at home, you could always suggest that the teacher try what you do ("At home, dd seems to react well when we say ...."). Don't jump to conclusions. Get the story and find a common way to approach the situation that works for you, the teacher, and your daughter. Most of us teachers sincerely want to help.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Originally Posted by Ellien C

T
DH tried to get her to imagine how she would feel if someone else did that to her - but she's either defensive (she does butt me all the the time) or unable to conceive of "the other." Is 5 too young for that sort of thing?

In the broader picture, yes you need to talk to the teacher on Monday and the two of you can come up with some sort of plan to cue your child when she expresses herself rudely.

But I wanted to call out what you said in this quote. I interpret this to mean that she is permitted to cut you off or go in front of you at will? I would suggest that, especially if she is having problems recognizing problems at school, you work really hard to enforce polite, considerate behavior at home. Frequently we allow our children to get into bad habits at home because "it doesn't matter, its just us" but then they get into trouble for the same things at school. Its got to be confusing. Better, if you can, to have the same sorts of expectations at home that the school does, especially during periods of adjustment like the beginning of K.

[Ellien C]

I want to thank everyone for their advice. We have been more aware at home about the tone of expression our DD uses and we simply ask her to "try that again" or say "could you restate that?"

We also met with the teacher and she agrees that DD is doing a bit better in school.

[karne]

I was wondering about your initial post where you quoted your dd as saying people are making her do things she can't do. Do I have that right? I was wondering if school or the work or perhaps the socialization feels demanding to her right now. With my kids I can see that when they are exerting themselves trying to adjust to new situations/relationships, etc., that takes up a lot of energy. what's left over doesn't always look like such a pretty picture!

My ds had to be spoken to about settling down at a school assembley, and really had a hard time doing this (older sister gleedully tells me). I hadn't known him to do this in the classroom, but as it turns out, the noise, less contained atmosphere of an assembley, basically led to sensory overload for him and the resulting behavior. So sometimes I think the behavior of the child tells you something about what's happening in their environment.