whats up with this logic?

[1littlebit]

I am in the throws of investigating Vax and have stopped Vaxing DS until further noticed. (it seemed silly to research while vaxing lol) I was talking to a friend who i usually have great respect for and who is one of those "if your so sure you agree then educating yourself on the other side can only strengthen you viewpoint, right?" kind of people (he drives most people nuts) anyway i mentioned this and it was like talking to a brick wall.

He basically told me that he studied infectious diseases in his medieval history class (true) and that they arent as prominent today (true) and this why vaccines are good. this is where he loses me. infectious diseases in the medieval history have nothing to say of the safety of vaccines today. whether they are effective or not is a moot point if they are unsafe.

Since i feel like I am just at the tip of the ice burg on the subject (i didnt realize there was so much to know until i started looking) i am having trouble supporting my opinion. i know i don't have to argue with him but it is more of an educational thing. The more we debate the issue the more i information and understanding i gain in order to refute his pro vax arguments.. if that makes sense? it just helps me see things clearly lol.

anyway from what i have been learning these are some of the issues. please add to or correct me if im wrong i am just starting to get a grasp on the sibject.

Vaccines are not researched or tested to the extend that they should be.

the research that is done on them is not unbiased b/c the company that makes the vaccines helps to fund the company that researches them

Vaccines are no where near 100% effective.

Vaccine companies are not held responsible for damages done by vaccines (wth is this about? who is responsible is not the manufacturer and why arent they responsible?)

b/c they are not held responsible (or atleast not responsible enough) they are not going to be as careful with the research, testing, and manufacturing

the longterm side of effects of most vaccines are unknown, and it is even harder to tell b/c babies are the ones who are vaccinated it is easy to attribute long term effectives to something other then vaccines

childhood illness helps build immune systems


please add to or correct these if possible. His biggest thing is that the serious side effects are rare and there fore not common enough to refuse vax. he also says that he would only recommend using a vaccination that has been used for at least 20 yrs and proven to be safe. as far as i can tell this is only polio (wont that just burst his bubble ) are there anymore?

This Vaccine stuff is overwhelming! now that i have started looking there is so much information. how do you decide which vaccines to get? the best i can tell is looking at the disease and the effects of the vaccine and deciding which is worse.

oh one other question ... before i left our pediatrician she said that the only reason we can choose not to vax is because all of the vaccines have made these diseases so rare. how much of this is actually true?

Oh i also dont see the benefit of vaccinating for diseases that are not fatal. like chicken pox for example. up until like 10 yrs ago everyone got chicken pox.... why is it suddenly so bad that we have to vaccinate for it?


ETA- good lord this is long thank you in advance for reading it let along answering

[Gitti]

[QUOTE=1littlebit;12464711]

Vaccines are not researched or tested to the extend that they should be.

Correct!
http://www.vaccineinfo.net/immunizat...ne_facts.shtml

the research that is done on them is not unbiased b/c the company that makes the vaccines helps to fund the company that researches them

The vaccine manufacturers have all the money and do all the research and then cherry pick from the studies as to which ones they want us to see.

Vaccines are no where near 100% effective.

Correct!

Vaccine companies are not held responsible for damages done by vaccines (wth is this about? who is responsible is not the manufacturer and why arent they responsible?)

They are protected by a law they have lobbied to get. Every vaccine that is sold has a surcharge that covers damages. Millions of $ have been paid out. None is from the manufacturer, it is all $ from the buyer.

b/c they are not held responsible (or atleast not responsible enough) they are not going to be as careful with the research, testing, and manufacturing

Just imagine you are making a product and the government guarantees you that they are going to basically force every citizen to buy or use and if there is any harm, death or otherwise, you will not be held responsible. That is power! Big pHARMa is by far the richest conglomerate in the whole world. What do they do with their money, besides make more medicine? You wouldn't want to know.

the longterm side of effects of most vaccines are unknown, and it is even harder to tell b/c babies are the ones who are vaccinated it is easy to attribute long term effectives to something other then vaccines

Exactly! There is a precedence for that, it is called SV40. Learn about it when you get a chance.

childhood illness helps build immune systems

And how. Besides we really don't know where all these modern diseases in our children came from? Years ago, children lived healthier and cancer in kids was unheard of. Now we build children's cancer clinks. That is frightening. It is also big business.

please add to or correct these if possible. His biggest thing is that the serious side effects are rare and there fore not common enough to refuse vax.

He is wrong on that. They are merely hidden. But 1 in what # of autism is not rare and we have no conclusive evidence that vaccines are not to blame nor do we know what else could have caused this.

he also says that he would only recommend using a vaccination that has been used for at least 20 yrs and proven to be safe. as far as i can tell this is only polio (wont that just burst his bubble ) are there anymore?

Well there is the small pox vax. Does he want that one?
And why would he believe that one used for 20 years is any better than the newer ones? So he himself is saying that some vaccines are dangerous. Why?

This Vaccine stuff is overwhelming! now that i have started looking there is so much information. how do you decide which vaccines to get? the best i can tell is looking at the disease and the effects of the vaccine and deciding which is worse.

Don't get any. Do your research. Because there is no sense to getting some and continuing with research. You'll just be sorry you did any! That is what we did and my dd is forever sorry she did not finish researching first before she injected that crap into her son.

oh one other question ... before i left our pediatrician she said that the only reason we can choose not to vax is because all of the vaccines have made these diseases so rare. how much of this is actually true?

She is wrong. Deaths due to infections went down way before the use of vaccines. Here is a site -http://www.healthsentinel.com/graphs...rint_list_item

Click on each chart to enlarge.

Oh i also dont see the benefit of vaccinating for diseases that are not fatal. like chicken pox for example. up until like 10 yrs ago everyone got chicken pox.... why is it suddenly so bad that we have to vaccinate for it?

BECAUSE we have a vaccine. Vaccines are huge money makers. Big pHARMa is not into the business for health and healing. They are into making vaccines to make money.
It was the same story in my childhood with measles. Measles was a harmless childhood disease UNTIL they came out with a vaccine. Suddenly it was a killer. And to proof it they gave us statistics from AFRICA.


You are just starting your research (I think). It can be very overwhelming. Take one vaccine at a time and research it. And most important, don't vaccinate until you are 100% sure of your decision. You can always vaccinate but if your child has an adverse reaction, you can never go back on your decision again.

[1littlebit]

thanks for answering! i am just starting to research and it feels so overwhelming. there is so much information out there and it seems like the pro vax stuff i read is really repetitive. "Do it because its good to do it and its bad not to do it if you dont do it you are bad you should do it because we tell you its good our proof is that we told you too." thats all i can find outside of fear mongering which i refuse to consider evidence b/c omg what if you child dies from X illness doesnt scare me since that is a worst case scenario... and the worst case scenario for a vax is also death... so umm i cant work with that logic kwim?

thanks for the link it was really helpful! i like graphs... they are clear lol.

[Gitti]

The only way to learn is to read, read, read. And you are doing that.

I would recommend two books if I may -

Vaccines: A Thoughtful Parents' Guide - Aviva Jill Romm

How To Raise Healthy Children In Spite.... Dr. Mendelsohn

And one more suggestion: don't talk to anyone who considers himself an expert. They are only blinded imo.