HELP- I'm afraid he is going to kill his sister...

[LandonsMama]

My 3.5 year old is out of control and I don't know what to do. He is very mean to his 8 month old sister, and I think it goes beyond having a "new" baby. For no reason what so ever he will walk up to her and push her over, kick her, hit her with a toy, tries to poke her in the eye with a fork, you name it. These actions are completely unprovoked and don't appear to have anything to do with attention- they will both be playing quietly on the floor- on opposite sides of the room even- he just gets the idea in his head and off he goes. Tonight while she was playing on the wood floor in the dining room, he stopped playing in the living room, walked in and THREW her backwards, slamming her head into the floor. A couple of weeks ago we were getting into the van, DD was in her seat and DS was playing outside the car (at home). Next thing I know, he picks up a baseball-sized stone, and throws the stone at her head from point blank range!!!! For no reason at all. It hit her a half inch under her eye, broke the skin and gave her a black eye that still hasn't completely healed nearly 1 month later. Another half an inch and she could have lost her eye, or worse...

This crap goes on every day, every day. We've tried ignoring him and giving DD all our attention when he hurts her, we leave the room, we've put him in time out, at his peds. recommendation we have put him in TO upstairs alone knowing he is terrified of that (eh, not anymore...), we've taken things away, we've taken privileges away, we've talked till we turned blue. He just doesn't seem to care.

He is a very intense, sensitive, energetic kid, who is the size of the average 5 year old and just as strong. He is also very smart for his age- his preschool teacher has been teaching for over 35 years and she told us she has never met a 3 year old as verbal as he is and he is far more advanced than most of the returning 4 year olds in his class. But that seems to be part of the problem- he can rationalize all of his actions, he can talk his way around every reason we give him for not hurting his sister.

We desperately need help. His pediatrician has given us all the advice she has, his preschool teacher thinks that ignoring him when he hurts DD is all that it will take (yeah right), and we have no one else to turn to. My parents think all he needs is a few good spankings....

We don't even know where his is getting this stuff from. We are very selective about what he watches on TV when we let him watch it- he isn't even allowed to watch cartoons that have any "G violence" in them (Sponge Bob, Tom and Jerry, etc). We don't watch TV during the day, only after the kids have gone to bed for the night...

Now I'm rambling. We just need help, my daughter deserves so much better than to be abused like this.

[Keeping up]

Not sure I can offer much advice ...

- can you protect the baby from him (i.e. a baby cage, obviously I don't like them either) in the short-term while you work on his behaviour
- can you give him more directed attention and/or directed play ideas such that he doesn't get any ideas
- can you give him just a ton more excercise, free play time outside to tire him out or other activities outside of the home
- does he have aggressive tendencies when playing with peers his own age?

I have the somewhat reverse problem, my 16 month old will take heavy toys and go and hit his older siblings.

[mama2annabelle]

I could have written your post about 4 years ago. I was terrified that my 2 year old DD was going to kill her baby brother. I could NOT put him down unless I knew that DD couldn't get to him. She was horrible to him, and way beyond what I would think is typical sibling jealousy. Her behavior was crazy in all aspects of life, but intensified toward DS. We discovered that she had food allergies (dairy, wheat, artificial colors) which is where her crazy aggressive behaviors were stemming from. Once we cleared her diet of the offending foods she became a "normal" child. It was AMAZING!! She still a very intense person, but the out of control aggression is gone.

[PGTlatte]

Our DS1 was 2.5 when his lil bro was born and I went through something like this with him.

I would show him what he can hit when he needs to let out physical aggression....at my house that would be the pillows on the couch. And I would do some practice sessions with that.

The only other thing I would do is EVERY SINGLE TIME he begins any physical aggression, a TO alone in his room. Every. Single. Time. And afterward - meaning not until he has calmed down....take him to the couch and remind him he can hit the couch.

When you see tension brewing, for the times you see it, help him to the couch to let it out. Do it with him if that helps him get started.

I know the TO sounds harsh. But for me, physical violence against lil bro was the situation I felt made it necessary.

And it worked. Our DS got the message physical attacks will NOT be tolerated.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Many 3 YOs lack impulse control and most don't know their own strength. Most haven't really developed a sense of empathy yet. An energetic intense child and these facts, plus small baby is a recipe for trouble. Good news is that he will eventually outgrow it. Bad news is until he does and/or learns more control, it is you absolute priority to protect your younger child. You can't be more than arm's reach from her. Slings were invented for this. You must instantly catch your big guy before he can touch her. You must make sure that ALL things that can be used as weapons are inaccesible to him -- locks of silverwear drawers, all rocks cleared from the yard. You get the idea. Is this a pain in the neck? Yes, but its still your responsibility.

Frankly, these were the situations that we used time outs with my DS for. Pretty classic, you need to sit right here until everyone is calm and safe again. I know not everyone agrees, but for us it was important because it meant I could safely deal with younger child, I wouldn't have the mommy-bear response and hurt my older child, and it separated him from her long enough for sanity to return. The only two times I totally lost control and spanked my DS was when he had hurt DD. So this was one way to protect everyone. But I never thought it was possible to "punish" the violence away. At the same time we did two other things. I taught him to play with her in a safe, supervised, limited way. And I did all of the preventative things that Keeping suggested - outside time, lots of physical play, one-on-one time withh both mom and dad, good diet and good sleep. I also started him in gymnastics so he could learn better control of his body. And he grew up a bit each day and it was less.

Good luck.

[Marsupialmom]

Hey, I thought the second childs first word was suppose to be ouch. Followed by Mine and no.

[whalemilk]

Originally Posted by Marsupialmom

Hey, I thought the second childs first word was suppose to be ouch. Followed by Mine and no.

Very funny and witty, if we weren't talking about a tiny baby getting hit with large rocks. Holy crap.

All I can say is keep them separated. I don't have anything encouraging to offer because this reminds me way too much of a guy I used to be friends with and how he treated his sister as a kid. He, too, was sensitive and energetic but other than that, like I said, not encouraging.

I'm not someone who screams "see a shrink!!" at the smallest thing, but I really think this merits a trip to a good, gentle child psychologist. I'd see a PhD not an MD--MD will want to prescribe drugs as a first line, PhD will be more inclined to offer behavioral approaches first. Good luck.

[Lohagrace]

Maybe you could also play role-playing with some toys or dolls with him? Like take a doll that is baby, one that is him and one that is you. Show him hurt the baby and talk about how the mom doll is so upset now, the baby is upset, everyone in the family is upset because the baby is hurt. Talk to him about a time he was hurt and say that this hurts the baby just like when he is hurt. I dont know if it would help, but it might make it so you can "talk" to him on his level about how his actions are affecting others. i know kids this age can't really hear us when we talk and talk about an issue.

i agree on the sling. keep her with you. keep her on your back in a carrier if you need to do chores. just dont give him the opportunity. in close supervised contact (with only soft toys!) sit with them and play. show him that nice play is the only way he can be around her.

good luck. this is the one issue where i had the hardest time with patience and not wanting to hurt my dd in retaliation.

[lurve]

i would talk with him. next time he does it say something like this:
you: it looks like you don't like having a little sister, do you?
you: do you think i love you less because she is here now?
you: do you miss it just being you and me?
you: i miss it just being the two of together too. i miss our time together.
you: you get really upset because i spend time with your sister. lets get a doll and i want yiou to show me what you want to do to your sister.

now go get that doll and take him to another room and let him beat the crap out of the doll. let him take out the anger on that doll. don't dramatize it. just watch and validate. you may be horrified at what he does but he needs an outlet. he needs to know that it is okay to have this anger. as naomi aldort put it, getting a sibling is as if our partner brought home a new partner to join us when everything was going so well with just you and hubby. but now there is a new wife in town who is expected to be in bed with you,e at with you, shower with you andf you are supposed to enjoy it. so you can see where his anger is coming from. after he beats the doll, tell him that whenever he wants to hit his sister again, to tell you and you will play your new game together. if he forgets, remind him.

read "raising our children, raising ourselves" and playful parenting. good luck!

[mamaduck]

I have known children with Asperger's who behave like you describe around younger children. I'm not diagnosing, of course, but I wanted to put it out there so that you can do a little research. Especially since you describe him as extremely intellectual. It might fit, in which case Asperger's resources will give you a whole new set of resources for dealing with violent behavior.

[gini1313]

Originally Posted by lurve

read "raising our children, raising ourselves" and playful parenting. good luck!

Also Connection Parenting.

[LandonsMama]

Thanks for all the replies. DH and I sat up talking about it last night- what we originally thought were all random attacks on her actually have somewhat of a pattern. They often occur during a transition of some sort, for example the rock throwing incident we were preparing to leave, or when he is overstimulated from being out, or over tired from missing a nap. But the biggest trigger is toy related- either she is playing with one of his toys or he thinks she is going to make a MOVE to play with one of his toys (as was the case last night I think, some of his toys were within her reach).

He really is a sweet boy, everyone tells us so, he just works himself up into these "tizzies" where he can no longer control his body. Oddly enough, when someone is hurt he is the first one there, asking if the kid is ok or if he or she needs their booboo kissed. I'm not sure if he is making the link between his actions towards his sister and her getting really hurt... In my exhausted, frustrated, overwhelmed state last night I think I made him out to be more an evil monster than he is.

Here are a few things we are going to do-

*Every time he hurts his sister over a toy instead of asking us for help, all the toys on the floor will be packed up and taken to the basement. Taking one toy away, regardless of how much he might like that toy, isn't drastic enough as we've come to learn.

*When he is in his "tizzies" we need to keep them separated as much as possible. Here is the tough part though, how do I keep them separated and help to calm down at the same time? I can put her in a playpen but she'll scream the whole time, so that will just add to his overstimulation....

*Use roll playing as suggested

*Work to minimize his triggers as much as possible (reducing the number of transitions, keep trips out short, etc.)

*Get him his own play space by emptying out the office (what we'll do with everything in there I have no idea....). We've tried having HIM play in the playpen but that failed miserably.

Wearing DD is a tricky one. As much as I LOVE to wear her (and I love my stash of carriers, lol ), wearing her while he is worked up seems to add to it. I think in this instance it is an attention issue. He'll grab her legs and yank on them as hard as he can, and that is very difficult for me to stop if she is on my back. I keep turning around to reach him and he just turns with me (which would be kind of funny if he wasn't hurting her.)

Do any of you have any ideas of what we could specifically do or say when his is worked up to end it? When he starts going after her and we try to get up and leave with her he turns it into a game of chasing us to continue doing whatever it was he was doing to her (or us). It just eggs him on more.

Thanks again for all of the advice

ETA: Do you have any specific words, actions we could use when DS takes DD's toys away from her?

[Happiestever]

Originally Posted by lurve

i would talk with him. next time he does it say something like this:
you: it looks like you don't like having a little sister, do you?
you: do you think i love you less because she is here now?
you: do you miss it just being you and me?
you: i miss it just being the two of together too. i miss our time together.
you: you get really upset because i spend time with your sister. lets get a doll and i want yiou to show me what you want to do to your sister.

now go get that doll and take him to another room and let him beat the crap out of the doll. let him take out the anger on that doll. don't dramatize it. just watch and validate. you may be horrified

This sounds crazy to me: A pretend doll to beat the crap out of!!!!! NO freggin way would I even let him to that to a doll, a pillow yes. And I would talk about any aggression he has, but I would not put those kinds of words together. It seems like that would put even more ideas into his head and even pretend beating isn't great. Time outs would be more called for. There has to be a line drawn for the children's safety. Her baby needs to be put down sometime, and I am sure the OP is probably holding the baby a ton anyway.


I have a relative to 2 yo son hit his little sleeping baby sister with a 2x4. Yikes!!!! We all just gotta keep on our toes. COnstant vigilance. I know bc I too have the body slamming 2 yr old on top his baby sister. I feel your pain mama, thank goodness we don't have rocks round here, cause I would be in for trouble.

[lurve]

Originally Posted by Happiestever

This sounds crazy to me: A pretend doll to beat the crap out of!!!!! NO freggin way would I even let him to that to a doll, a pillow yes. And I would talk about any aggression he has, but I would not put those kinds of words together. It seems like that would put even more ideas into his head and even pretend beating isn't great. Time outs would be more called for. There has to be a line drawn for the children's safety. Her baby needs to be put down sometime, and I am sure the OP is probably holding the baby a ton anyway.


I have a relative to 2 yo son hit his little sleeping baby sister with a 2x4. Yikes!!!! We all just gotta keep on our toes. COnstant vigilance. I know bc I too have the body slamming 2 yr old on top his baby sister. I feel your pain mama, thank goodness we don't have rocks round here, cause I would be in for trouble.

children are smart. they know the difference between dolls and little sisters. between games (which is what the hitting of the doll is) and real life. right now he really wants to hurt his sister. what is ridiculous is not to acknowledge that, not to realize why and not to redirect him.

this also helps re-enforce that his feelings of anger and hurt aren't *bad* feelings, they are just feelings. it teaches him how to cope with the feelings and not be afraid of them, which is what he probably is now. because now when he feels them, he gets yelled at and then becomes ashamed of his feelings. true, he is not expressing his feelings the way *we* find appropriate but he can't yet. kids in this situation are talking but we are so busy punishing, even gd style, that we no longer listen.
we are so quick to take away his toys, to put him in time out but not to address the real problem - he hates his sister. he is jealous. he misses his connection with mama. so let's talk to him about it. let's get to the root of the problem and let's allow him to get his anger out in the best way he can, in a way he can relate.:

[meemee]

two things stand out for me

* is he getting enough one on one attention from each of you? could he feel his sister is taking away all the attention and he is not getting his share. so more outings, attention to him.

* is he getting enough opportunities to let out excess energy. like a park for instance. or a childrens climbing section in the mall? even for that matter a trip to the grocery store where he is not sitting in a cart.

[annexk8]

We are in a VERY similar situation with our two, right down to the very verbal 3-year old who can talk his way out of anything. It's been very trying. We are working hard on making sure he gets a ton of time with mom and dad and a lot of exercise.

When he starts going after the baby, I don't go rescue HER, I go intervene with HIM. I pick him up and tell him firmly not to hurt his sister, that I see him getting too rough and that I am going to help him be safe and gentle. I don't know if that would work for your 8mo - mine is 13 months and walking, so she can be pretty independent. (Of course, this is all in a perfect world that I say this. My world is probably 80% perfect, 20% yelling).

We also try to laugh a lot, and make everything into a silly game. If he is running around flailing his arms and legs, then I do the same thing and we shake our sillies out.

I also am not against judicious use of the playpen/crib or TV to ease transitions. It's always hard when we are trying to get ready to go somewhere when I have to do diapers/potty/shoes/coats/backpack etc. So I'll put the TV on for DS while I get DD and myself ready, then put DD in the crib and get DS ready.

[Lohagrace]

the only problem with the toy thing, that i can see, is you taking away ALL his toys would be another negative thing he is going to associate with her. like 'my dumb sister made all my toys go away'. it seems like you want to foster an environment where his associations with her are positive. when he is with her, you are sitting with them playing. when he is with her, he is getting read to (one on either side of you). try to avoid when he is with her negative things like yelling and taking things away. obviously if he needs to be seperated, then do that.
i would say, however, that if you put most/all of the toys away for NOW (like when he is in bed) that might help you because you seem to have identified them as a trigger. removing the toys might remove one trigger at least?

[PGTlatte]

As a third child myself, I can say that a *rock to the face* or *getting your head slammed into a floor* as the OP described goes WAY beyond "ouch". An 8-month old child should not have to defend herself against a sibling three times her size. It is the parent's job to protect her. As the OP is doing her best to do, and here looking for more information.

Originally Posted by Marsupialmom

Hey, I thought the second childs first word was suppose to be ouch. Followed by Mine and no.

[avivaelona]

I don't think the thing with a doll was crazy, but I would avoid saying "show me what you would like to do to your sister" I think that takes it too far. I would try to pick a target that isn't human like. (a pillow, a punching bag, a bozo the clown, something with some resistance rather than really soft is good) and talk about how his feelings about his sister make him feel angry and that's ok. They might even make him feel like punching or throwing at something, and that's ok too. And if he'd like mommy will stay with him while he lets out those punching throwing hitting feelings on Bozo the clown.

Other than that it sounds like you have gotten great suggestions and I'm paying attention as we are expecting an addition shortly.

[LandonsMama]

Originally Posted by avivaelona

I don't think the thing with a doll was crazy, but I would avoid saying "show me what you would like to do to your sister" I think that takes it too far. I would try to pick a target that isn't human like. (a pillow, a punching bag, a bozo the clown, something with some resistance rather than really soft is good) and talk about how his feelings about his sister make him feel angry and that's ok. They might even make him feel like punching or throwing at something, and that's ok too. And if he'd like mommy will stay with him while he lets out those punching throwing hitting feelings on Bozo the clown.

Other than that it sounds like you have gotten great suggestions and I'm paying attention as we are expecting an addition shortly.

Erica THANK YOU!! I've been trying to get him to hit couch pillows instead of DD, but I just haven't had the words to explain it to him (despite my long-winded post, I'm not a woman of words and nearly every time I open my mouth I end up planting my foot firmly in it, even with a 3 year old).

Anne, thank you too for the suggestion to go to DS instead of DD when he starts acting rough. I think that will be a great help in preventing a game of "get away" when we try to separate them.

You mama's all rock!! Thanks so much for the advice Now that I have some specific ideas I feel much less overwhelmed and out of control.