Need Quick Help! Some questions about my son's vaxes. - Page 2

[Jenny_Jen]

3 Doses of DTaP confers immunity for the DT portion. The reason they do so many is because the P portion sucks. We actually had a run in at the hospital in May & the emerg Dr told me since my son had 3 DTaP's he was fine for the tetnus portion. Your son should be fine unless you're really worried about the P (whooping cough).

[charleysmama23]

Originally Posted by alegna

Actually, pre-vax, most kids had immunity to Hib with no clinical case recorded. In most kids, most of the time, it's a minor bug. It's very unusual for it to create meningitis.

And NOW, it has virtually disappeared. Almost no cases reported.

-Angela

Alright, but this is always my confusion with the no vax thing...isn't the reason it's disappeared BECAUSE of vaccination? I mean...if we stop, won't these diseases just come back again? I'm REALLY not being obstinate or saying we should all vaccinated our kids, I'm honestly wondering if anyone can speak to this?

[alegna]

Originally Posted by charleysmama23

Alright, but this is always my confusion with the no vax thing...isn't the reason it's disappeared BECAUSE of vaccination? I mean...if we stop, won't these diseases just come back again? I'm REALLY not being obstinate or saying we should all vaccinated our kids, I'm honestly wondering if anyone can speak to this?

Depends on the disease is the short version.

Yes, hib has disappeared because of the vaccine. So what? Cases of menigitis have NOT disappeared. Pre-vax Hib was almost ALWAYS benign and not even something parents knew about.

SO, what has happened? Now other bacteria have filled the void.

-Angela

[spero]

Originally Posted by charleysmama23

Alright, but this is always my confusion with the no vax thing...isn't the reason it's disappeared BECAUSE of vaccination? I mean...if we stop, won't these diseases just come back again? I'm REALLY not being obstinate or saying we should all vaccinated our kids, I'm honestly wondering if anyone can speak to this?

Actually, some diseases were on the decline BEFORE there were vaccines for them.

[quarteralien]

Originally Posted by charleysmama23

Alright, but this is always my confusion with the no vax thing...isn't the reason it's disappeared BECAUSE of vaccination? I mean...if we stop, won't these diseases just come back again? I'm REALLY not being obstinate or saying we should all vaccinated our kids, I'm honestly wondering if anyone can speak to this?

Google serotype replacement. That's what's happening with Hib. Hemophilus influenza types a, c, d, e, etc are now filling the void left by type b. It will never end.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by spero

Actually, some diseases were on the decline BEFORE there were vaccines for them.

Yup...actually Most diseases were on their way out well before the vaxes were introduced. This was due to improved medical care, sanitation and healthier foods. check out
http://www.healthsentinel.com/graphs.php for some interesting graphs that illustrate this.

[Meems]

Originally Posted by alegna

Actually, pre-vax, most kids had immunity to Hib with no clinical case recorded.

-Angela

I think I read that if a baby is breastfed, they have immunity?

[JJ'sMom]

One thing I found in my research that may help you...sadly I have never been able to find the source again....

The reason we are required to get 4 shots in Canada for the DTaPHib series is that at one shot about 65% of the population gets immunity, at 2 shots we get up to 80%, 3 shots, 95% and 4 shots 97%. Or something close to that.

I also found out that if you are breastfeeding and do the baby's titres, the baby will have the same immunities as you do up to 6 months post weaning. (This is why my DS2 was unable to get the Chicken pox when it came visiting our neighbourhood last summer.)

HTH

Julia

[quarteralien]

Originally Posted by JJ'sMom

One thing I found in my research that may help you...sadly I have never been able to find the source again....

The reason we are required to get 4 shots in Canada for the DTaPHib series is that at one shot about 65% of the population gets immunity, at 2 shots we get up to 80%, 3 shots, 95% and 4 shots 97%. Or something close to that.

I also found out that if you are breastfeeding and do the baby's titres, the baby will have the same immunities as you do up to 6 months post weaning. (This is why my DS2 was unable to get the Chicken pox when it came visiting our neighbourhood last summer.)

HTH

Julia

I remember reading something like that too, that supposedly the way the vax works is that it either creates immunity or it doesn't. It's not that you get 1/4 the immunity with each dose, it's that each succeeding dose is to cover the percentage of the population who didn't gain immunity from the first or second or however many doses they recommend. That's why over the years, they've begun to require a second MMR, and now possibly a second chicken pox shot.

[rcr]

Originally Posted by Jaysfamily

There are no no-vax-friendly peds in my area. .

Where are you in Alabama? There are some no vax-friendly dr.'s in East Alabama. PM me of you need a recommendation.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by alegna

Depends on the disease is the short version.

Yes, hib has disappeared because of the vaccine. So what? Cases of menigitis have NOT disappeared. Pre-vax Hib was almost ALWAYS benign and not even something parents knew about.

SO, what has happened? Now other bacteria have filled the void.

-Angela

Right.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17516405

In addition to the proportional increase in cases of non-type b Haemophilus influenzae disease in the post-H. influenzae type b vaccine era, the incidence of invasive H. influenzae disease was found to be approaching the rates of H. influenzae type b disease that were documented in the prevaccine period. Fifty-six percent of invasive disease now occurs in individuals aged >10 years

It's nontypeable h-flu (Nthi) that's filled in the gap serotype b (hib) left behind. So there's no Hib, any more, but there's still as much "invasive h-flu disease", because getting rid of B opened up an ecological niche for other species to flourish.

You can see it here, too.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...ses&deaths.pdf

[ktbug]

Originally Posted by charleysmama23

Prevnar & Pneumococcal: SAME vaccine, the dif is that pneumococcal protects against more strains of the same disease: pneumonia (not meningitis) your doc will give your son Prevnar unless he has an immune disorder

errm ... well ... no, not entirely. i mean, it CAN cause pneumonia, though the vast majority of pneumonia cases are progressive, meaning they started as something else that went untreated and turned into a lung infection. as i understand it, childhood vaccines targeting streptococcus pneumoniae were intended to curb otitis media - ear infections. peds see bajillions of cases of ear infections every day; it's of course a very common childhood ailment, and i might add one that's caused by a host of different pathogens (see meningitis discussion which has been amply covered by others in this thread).

s. pneumo can cause sinus infections, ear infections, colds, etc. it's a commonly occurring bacterium in close to half of all children's nasopharnyxes, and it causes disease when it grows out of proportion to its naturally occurring numbers. in the elderly or immunocompromised, s.pneumo infections can cause more serious illnesses, such as bacteremia, endocarditis, or indeed meningitis or pneumonia.

the point is that most kids have it growing in their noses and throats all the time, and it only causes a problem when it starts to reproduce abnormally. why does it do that? well, a number of reasons, only a few of which are readily explicable. decreased immune function (due to concomitant illness, poor nutrition, or even stress) would be the biggest catalyst, though i would concede there are certainly other factors that could produce the same effect.

the reason i argue against pneumococcal vaccines is basically because of serotype replacement. lots of kids no longer have natural s.pneumo, thanks to prevnar, but they still get ear infections and colds, you know? just as hib didn't eliminate early childhood meningitis, and menactra didn't eliminate late teen meningitis, so does prevnar not eliminate ear infections.

and, if you want the real whack-job take on it, i posit that prevnar was developed because ear infections make mommy take time off of work, and that equals decreased productivity (AND lost wages for the daycare provider, lol), which is bad for the economy. that's just my tinfoil hat opinion, though.

[mamakay]

Prevnar & Pneumococcal: SAME vaccine, the dif is that pneumococcal protects against more strains of the same disease: pneumonia (not meningitis) your doc will give your son Prevnar unless he has an immune disorder

Pneumococcus is one of the leading causes of bacterial meningitis, and the two vaccines are different in ways other than the number of serotypes covered by the vaccines.
Pneumovax23 (pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine, or PPV) doesn't work at all, and Prevnar (pneumococcal conjugate vaccine) does work against vaccine serotypes, even if it doesn't "work" to improve human health, because of serotype replacement.

[quarteralien]

Originally Posted by ktbug

and, if you want the real whack-job take on it, i posit that prevnar was developed because ear infections make mommy take time off of work, and that equals decreased productivity (AND lost wages for the daycare provider, lol), which is bad for the economy. that's just my tinfoil hat opinion, though.

I don't think that's a whack-job opinion. I remember hearing that was one of the main selling points of the chicken pox vax when it first came out. Now of course, chicken pox is a deadly disease, so it doesn't need that anymore. I've also heard the same idea applied to the flu vax, that you should get it so you don't miss work.

[lirpasirhc]

Originally Posted by quarteralien

I don't think that's a whack-job opinion. I remember hearing that was one of the main selling points of the chicken pox vax when it first came out. Now of course, chicken pox is a deadly disease, so it doesn't need that anymore. I've also heard the same idea applied to the flu vax, that you should get it so you don't miss work.

yeah. i like to read the congressional testimony regarding funding of vax research. they always mention how much time parents take of of work when their children get X illness and how much money would be saved if the kids just didn't get sick. in those figures, they never include info about kids getting sick postvaccination.

[momofmine]

Originally Posted by lirpasirhc

yeah. i like to read the congressional testimony regarding funding of vax research. they always mention how much time parents take of of work when their children get X illness and how much money would be saved if the kids just didn't get sick. in those figures, they never include info about kids getting sick postvaccination.

That is a VERY good point! We just can't look at these things with such a single-minded eye. There are many more layers and ripple effects from vaccinations that they are not including in their "research".