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2 Children Per Family? Why Is This The Norm? - Page 8

post #141 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaterPrimaePuellae View Post
Thanks for this very balanced view
I think you are right, it is a very complex issue and one which will certainly not be settled here. It was probably somewhat foolish of me to enter into it at all, as my own thoughts on the matter are still somewhat amorphous


Which is why we participate in these discussions, right?



sorry, should have multiquoted!
post #142 of 179
Why only 2?

As another poster said on a different thread,

"money, time and patience simply do not grow on trees"
post #143 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charbeau View Post
My husband and I were sure we were only going to have 2 children when I was pregnant with DS last year. We always said we wanted 2 and we had a DD and then a DS and we were content. We have changed our minds. You would think that we wanted to do something really radical by having more children based on what friends and family keep saying. And the comments are always off-hand jokes, which makes them seem like they are flippant and not to be taken seriously, yet I know they are. And the kicker is that I am not even pregnant again yet! I guess they are trying to talk us out of it?

What is the deal? If you have an only child you get questions about why not give the child a sibling and if you want more than 2 people think you are crazy. Why is this? I just can't imagine making some of the rude comments to other people that I've gotten about wanting at least one more child, possibly 2 more.
Two works for us for several reasons:

- I am a good mom to each of my kids - I can give them each adequate time & attention, and when DH is available, each child can get 100% adult focused attention. If we had more than two, that's less time each child has with each of us. That's not acceptable to either of us.

- We choose to send our children to a private Montessori school; this wouldn't be possible for us with more children.

- I choose to work with my husband, both in & out of the home, at our business which we built ourselves, and this wouldn't be practical with more children.

- I had two c sections, both medically necessary, one emergency, and I am unwilling to risk another one - either for myself or for future children.

- Both of my babies came early; my son a month early. I don't want to push our luck with an even earlier delivery.

All of these were factors in our decision making for our own family.

While I can admit when I see parents of many children, I do say to myself things like, "wow" or "where do they have the patience/time/money", I've never said these out loud, and I wouldn't assume my decisions would be or should be the same as others decisions.
post #144 of 179
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPotato View Post
This statement is just as rude as those that people on this thread are complaining about. Don't think that everyone wants to be just like you.

I will say that we will probably have only one, and that we will definitely not plan for more than two. I am a geologist/environmental scientist, and I have studied climate change (modern and geological, with associated extinction patterns, etc.) I am VERY concerned about global warming and what sort of world our children and grandchildren will live in. I would not choose to have more than two children because, given my education and the energy consumption and emmissions associated with every single individual in the United States, to have more than two would be hypocritical and irresponsible of me. I love children, I love my own child more than myself, I think that large families on tv do look like fun but I also know that, regardless of decisions to use cloth diapers, buy local food, etc., choosing to add a whole other person to this world (with all the consumption on down the line, through their own furture households and offspring, etc.) puts an enormous strain on this planet. People can smile and say that it's their decision that only affects their family -- but the fact is that is DOES affect more than your family-- the number of people on this earth will greatly affect the quality of life for all of our children and grandchildren (and for all the other species who live here as well!)
post #145 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaterPrimaePuellae View Post
IMO, raising 6 morally upright children with a sense of responsibility, conservation, and a good education in ways to protect our environment in the future is better than raising 1.5 children who feel entitled to a house full of their own toys, a new car when they turn 16, new cars every 3 years their whole lives, every other meal at McDonalds, etc, etc.

Not at all saying this is anyone here-- I'm sure it's not-- but so many kids out there are being raised this way. I don't want my children to be all alone in the crazy world.
There is NO guarantee that you dc will be that adults you raise them to be.
post #146 of 179
I have not read this whole tread- but to the OP:

I want 4 kids- and I am always being told by my family that I am nuts.

Funny thing is- I took a look at our homeschool group of about 30 families and we are the only ones that have 2 kids- there is one lady that has one and the rest have 3 or more- the average is 4-5. It is like I am the odd one out with only 2 kids. People in our group would be thrilled for us if we were going to have another- now my family on the other hand would freak out at us.
post #147 of 179
Why does it even matter how many children a couple wants to have? There are always going to be those who have a large number of children, there are always going to be those that have only one or two, and there are always going to be those that have none what so ever. As for culture dying out... it's inevitable. No culture can survive indeffinatly, people having more then two children won't stop that.
post #148 of 179
I would LOVE to have a 3rd!! But, it seems that all signs are pointing to stopping w/2.

Here are our reasons for stopping at 2:


The whole "they're expensive" thing is just an excuse a lot of times (not always, I do realize some truly can afford just 1 or 2). We can afford a 3rd but I guess we're just choosing not to. DH comes from a large family (6) and he watched his parents struggle the whole time they were growing up. To me it sounds like they had an awesome childhood so I'm not so sure why he's so quick to stop. Unless it was the one Christmas where he saw his mom crying in the kitchen because they really couldn't afford presents. That may be burned in his psyche.

DH is getting older. Will soon be 45. I'll be 35 in December. We just had DD in late July and DS just turned 2 and we don't have time to space them out.

We're going to try and keep our children out of the public schools. If I don't like or can't homeschool and we have a 3rd then that's where they would go. Can afford private school for 2 but not 3.

My pregnancies are not exactly complication free. My problems always start at 28 weeks. pre-eclampsia, chronic HBP, gestational diabetes, anemia-- w/both. The only way I would want to try for a 3rd would be if I could do it all naturally w/minimal interventions if any at all. My care provider said he would support me in that endevour but would be really surprised if I could beat the HBP w/o medication. Especially with HBP at what point are you pushing your luck?? This is dangerous stuff. Had a co-worker who delivered first baby at 29 weeks and the second at 25 weeks, due to severe eclampsia. Both babies survived but the one will have issues her entire life.

We're changing health plans at the beginning of the year. Right now vasectomy's and tubals are either $40 or $100 depending on where the doctor does them. After the first of the year the cost will go up to over $500.
post #149 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ks Mama View Post
Two works for us for several reasons:

- I am a good mom to each of my kids - I can give them each adequate time & attention, and when DH is available, each child can get 100% adult focused attention. If we had more than two, that's less time each child has with each of us. That's not acceptable to either of us.

- We choose to send our children to a private Montessori school; this wouldn't be possible for us with more children.

- I choose to work with my husband, both in & out of the home, at our business which we built ourselves, and this wouldn't be practical with more children.

- I had two c sections, both medically necessary, one emergency, and I am unwilling to risk another one - either for myself or for future children.

- Both of my babies came early; my son a month early. I don't want to push our luck with an even earlier delivery.

All of these were factors in our decision making for our own family.

While I can admit when I see parents of many children, I do say to myself things like, "wow" or "where do they have the patience/time/money", I've never said these out loud, and I wouldn't assume my decisions would be or should be the same as others decisions.
Six (almost seven) works for us several reasons:

I am a good Mom to all of my kids! I give each one of them lots of attention and focus. Fortunately, they get a lot of attention from each other too!

-I choose to homeschool all of my children. This enables them to get a high quality classical education that costs us very little. It also enables them to make lots of friends of all ages in a variety of different places (basketball, music lessons, climbing class, homeschool group, etc.)

-I choose to work with my husband at our home office. Fortunately, we are very able to do this together, work hard and include our children occasionally in a variety of tasks (our 12 year old loves to design graphics - and our 10 year old loves to go on "calls" to clients' offices and fix computers).

-I was fortunate to have six completely natural, very normal pregnancies and births.

-All of my kids were late!

I can't imagine having fewer children. I can't imagine only having two again!
I love having a big family - a chaotic house and all that goes with it! I of course, also never say this out loud to parents of "just" one or two.

Not a critique - just the other side of the coin, as it were!:-)
post #150 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamatoakd View Post
The odd thing is, the idea of four seems to be really strange to people... Having three, I can't imagine how one more will really tip the scale for us.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
So funny you should say that. My SIL and her husband have 4 boys (plus 2 older boys from his first marriage). They were constantly warning us about 4, saying it broke them, etc. #2 is hard, but then #3 doesn't seem that much more difficult, and it tricks you into #4, which breaks you.
And it is sooo true.
Even if you talk to a family like the Duggars with 17 kids, she said the hardest was when she had just 4 or 5, because they're all young still and you don't have anyone to really help you.
Financially we noticed a difference with 1 or 2, but after that it's not made a huge difference for us after birth expenses. School tuition can be a bit much though.
post #151 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly View Post
I think when you get to the end of your life you are not going to regret the children you DID have but you may very well regret the ones you didn't.
Beautiful! :
post #152 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom View Post
Interesting note: this was not a random happening. It was a deliberate association, spread in posters, public talks, etc by the birth control and eugenics movements. I studied the history of birth control last year (personal interest, not for school) and it was fascinating the way this was done. Many of the posters (in several different countries) were split images. A poor family with 4 or 5 children crammed into a dirty room everybody looking miserable. Then a happy family with one toddler and one baby, everybody with a big grin on their face and obviously materially well off. Another lovely one done in India was an advertisement for sterilization camps--a miserable hut set up on a truck bed with a large, poor family (real people) on display. "Avoid this. Get sterilized".
post #153 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kappa View Post
I'm writing a paper about coerced sterilization of Black women in the US (states and particularly Puerto Rico), and whoa, if some people only knew! Entire Native tribes have been sterilized with our taxpayer dollars, 1/3 of the island women in puerto rico, pregnant women (such as "illegal" mexican immigrant women" are still being coerced into sterilization being told "get your tubes tied if you want us to deliver your babe" at county hospitals. It's a crazy world out there.

My sis is a doc, and she told me she would insist that young teenage girls get the depo shot after they delivered when she did her ob rotation. Intentions seem good, but oh what an abusive way to go about population control.
I would love a copy of your paper to read
post #154 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masel View Post
Is two the norm or the average. Looking through my friends and family I see a lot of 1s and 3s. Hardly any twos.

For myself I don't get a lot of say in the numbers. This month it has been ten years since I used any sort of birth control. I have one adopted daughter and am leaving for an IUI in about 10 minutes. We'll see how that goes. Getting to actually choose how many children you have is so alien to me!
post #155 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by channelofpeace View Post

I think there is this idea, at least in part, that since birth control is available, there is a duty to use it, and people that have larger families aren't doing their "duty" and are irresponsible.
I totally agree that people have this view.

I am asked often if I have ever heard of birth control.
post #156 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by bczmama View Post
"Is there really an earnest attempt being made to achieve zero population growth?"

I think some segments of the environmental movement are certainly pushing zpg. Our government most certainly is not - neither through our immigration policy or the emphasis on abstinence versus contraception.

I think the government certainly has an interest in promoting a larger family size -- its a little hard to have an army without young men (especially with China looming as our next potential world counterweight), or support social security and so on.

Yes, and when you are busy trying to support a larger family financially and practically, you have less time for activism, which suits the goverment very well.
post #157 of 179
Someone want to pm me and explain how to multi link? :
post #158 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchymomofmany View Post
Six (almost seven) works for us several reasons:

I am a good Mom to all of my kids! I give each one of them lots of attention and focus. Fortunately, they get a lot of attention from each other too!

-I choose to homeschool all of my children. This enables them to get a high quality classical education that costs us very little. It also enables them to make lots of friends of all ages in a variety of different places (basketball, music lessons, climbing class, homeschool group, etc.)

-I choose to work with my husband at our home office. Fortunately, we are very able to do this together, work hard and include our children occasionally in a variety of tasks (our 12 year old loves to design graphics - and our 10 year old loves to go on "calls" to clients' offices and fix computers).

-I was fortunate to have six completely natural, very normal pregnancies and births.

-All of my kids were late!

I can't imagine having fewer children. I can't imagine only having two again!
I love having a big family - a chaotic house and all that goes with it! I of course, also never say this out loud to parents of "just" one or two.

Not a critique - just the other side of the coin, as it were!:-)
Oh I hear you, and I appreciate seeing the other side.

Honestly, the complications of my pregnancies/deliveries weighed much more heavily than other things when we were considering the number of children. Deciding to have 2 was difficult. But we really really wanted to have more than one child in our family. So the desire to have a more child-centered household & future - where our children would have each other, instead of just us or their friends or extended family - outweighed the risks of a second pregnancy for us. How we wanted natural, easy births. But "you can't always get what you want..." I've come to terms with it; its a reality for me, and I have to be practical in my decisions when it comes to my body & the safety of pregnancy for myself & future children.

And the second most heavily weighted issue... both of our patience/tolerance levels. For noise, general mayhem, you know... kid stuff. You thrive in it... I like to have my "adult" work time; and I know DH does as well - our business is very important to us. I also value my rare moments of solitude & quiet. I appreciate my children more when I have this time, and with more children, you definitely get less alone time. And homeschooling, while I see some great merits to it, was not the path I'd ever choose - knowing myself, and my husband, and our needs; while also knowing our gifted childrens' needs for contientious, attentive, child-directed education. Montessori fits our life perfectly.

For us, the decision to have two wasn't spur of the moment, and it wasn't planned ahead of time either - it just evolved. But it was definitely the right choice for us.
post #159 of 179
I strongly recommend everyone read Mother Nature by Dr Sarah Hrdy.

It is a sociobiological study of mothering behaviors - across cultures and across species - with a deep examination of human maternal behaviors.

To sum up one of her points, females of all species, including human, have always made very calculated decisions to optimize the ability of their offspring to survive to mate/reproduce.

What is surprising for us in our current wealthy environment is that this desire to optimize for their offspring does NOT mean that ALL children were prioritized - in fact, infanticide and abortion have been used throughout history as methods for women (and most species as well) to either protect themselves to survive (when having/caring for a child would be highly risky) or protect existing children. For example, the majority of the abandoned foundlings in Europe during the 17-19th centuries were by married women who already had three or so children.

Now, this is heartless, but then so is nature, and I think it is a hallmark of a society that women are not forced to make Sophie's choice. I think our society has much farther to go, but we are further down the road than many places in this world at this moment. And I think we can all agree that we want to work for a world where women are not forced to chose between their children or themselves.

The context of our society - the cost per child by the family to raise him/her combined with the cultural, physical and economic support for families - mixed with female empowerment over her body and individual circumstances per mother and per family - determinines family size.

And when we have a world with universal access to birth control (natural and artificial), we would see for the first time ever what family size women freely choose.

The glory is that there is no "one size fits all" answer -as pp's have said, there will be a range of family sizes - but we will see a few answers that are very popular for very similar reasons.

Please note, I am not saying that all women SHOULD use birth control - but rather that all women should be given the choice and access to use birth control - including limiting intercourse - because this is the core of female empowerment.

Okay, off my soapbox.
post #160 of 179
I guess because it is their CHOICE and that is okay! I do feel a little irked when my choice to want more children is not respected....
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