GD vs. permissive parenting with toddler

[esmejoy]

Hello --

I'm hoping you wise ones can help me with something I've been thinking about lately -- I'm trying to figure out for myself where the lines are with GD vs. permissiveness in dealing with my 19 month old. In particular, I'm hoping you might provide me with examples of what you consider *permissive* parenting in that age group. Also, maybe respond to some particular examples from the past few days... (if you make it that far in this long post!)

First, just a bit about where I'm coming from. I've read a lot about GD (Alfie Kohn, Naomi Aldort, mdc ad nauseum!) and it basically resonates completely with me. My own upbringing was not authoritarian -- but it was also pretty bereft of emotional communication. So my own mothering instincts I would say tend to the permissive end of the permissive/strict continuum -- I certainly never have the instinct to hit or yell -- but I worry that I might be something of a LAX parent. And I worry that my own impaired connection to my own emotions is going to be a big obstacle to overcome in my own parenting.

So, in general, I try to keep my toddler pretty content -- my house is pretty well babyproofed -- when he was in his climbing-on-the-table stage, I tried to keep things as safe as possible, but didn't keep him from getting up there. I'm between jobs right now, and our days are pretty much spent doing toddler-friendly things -- walks, playground, subway, zoo -- with some laundry and (very) occasional vacuuming thrown in. I keep myself sane by doing things after he goes to sleep (internet, netflix, knitting, reading -- I'm pretty much an introvert). I'm almost never in a hurry to get anywhere, so we don't have a lot of transition battles -- occasionally I'll have to forcibly put him on my back or in a stroller -- I hate doing that, but haven't really found a good alternative. At the playground, I let him do pretty much whatever he wants -- he's a great climber, he's not aggressive with other kids, and not even much of a toy snatcher. Most of the time I feel like I'm doing the right thing with him -- but then I wonder -- is this totally unrealistic parenting?? Should he have more limits as a part of his daily routine? Am I just setting myself up for problems when he's older?

Here are a couple of specific incidents where there *was* some kind of conflict, just off the top of my head. Tonight at dinner -- he refused to go in his high chair. Screamed, kicked his legs -- very clearly did NOT want to sit there. So, ate dinner more or less on my lap. Not ideal for me -- BUT -- the alternative, forcing him into his chair, would have been even worse -- I'm pretty sure he would have continued to scream, not eat, maybe throw his food on the floor. Or, even if he HAD settled down -- I'm not really interested in forcing him to do something he doesn't want to if I don't have a good enough reason for it. And tonight, sitting on my lap to eat dinner was OK with me. (I guess I worry that over time, too many things will be "OK with me" at least in the moment -- but that they'll add up to an untenable situation!) Ultimately, I did coax him (willingly) into his chair for two bites of soup -- that felt like a small victory.

Another example: last night, up until 11pm. I *hate* it when he goes to bed late, because it means I lose my only "me" time in the day -- but I'm really not sure what to do about it (other than to try to have a more regular schedule -- which should happen when I start working full time within the next couple of weeks hopefully). So... I read him a bunch of books, and then went and got MY book ("Playful Parenting" of all things) and read while he played with his books. That included a lot of getting out of bed, dropping books behind the bed (which I'm sure my downstairs neighbor did NOT appreciate), reaching over to close my book, nursing for 2 seconds, rolling around the bed... I don't feel great about how I handled that (especially the book dropping part) -- BUT I'm really not sure what I would do differently the next time. I felt like I could deal with it because I was actually sort of getting to do my thing (reading) and NOT being an involved mom for a couple of hours.

The thing is -- overall I have an extremely sweet, even-tempered, easy-going little guy. It's pretty easy to keep him happy -- and so I do. I *think* about my parenting all the time -- in a good way (I think), I'm quite conscious about the kind of mother I want to be. BUT -- to an outside, objective bystander, I'm not sure that you could make any distinction between my "gentle discipline" and another mom's "permissiveness."

ETA: the two clear arenas I can think of with limit-setting at this age are safety and harm-to-others/destructiveness. I am much more easy-going about safety than a lot of other parents -- but this is at least in part because (I think!) I have a good sense of my son's capabilities, and want him to continue to explore and push his own physical boundaries. I am very firm about holding hands while crossing the street -- and he in turn has never challenged that rule. I would *certainly* step in if he were hurting another child -- that hasn't happened yet.



thoughts?

thanks for making it to the end!
esme

[Greenmama2AJ]

I dont think you should worry about what others think, what really matters is how YOU feel.

If you're fine with DS sitting on your lap occasionally to eat, that's cool (my DS eats every meal there sometimes). If however, you hate him sitting there but still let him do it - that's being permissive.

Decide on the battles you are willing to fight. Then feel confident that you are making the right choices for your family.

Don't worry if others have different rules either. Part of growing up is learning that different rules exist at different places. What is acceptable at Mom and Dad's doesn't have to be acceptable at Granma's. That's o.k. They'll learn the difference.

I think your rules sound just fine. I am quite liberal in my parenting choices too. But I've found that my DS, like yours, is one of the better behaved kids at the playground. He is quite athletic, shares, is popular. He doesn't need the limits that perhaps other kids might. I say go with your gut instinct and do what makes parenting pleasant and fun. What's the fun in having power struggles with your kid everyday. It sounds like everything is going great!

[esmejoy]

was permissive vs. GD -- now Parenting as Therapy?

thanks for the reply, greenmama.

I'm hijacking my own thread, now, as I think I did a fairly poor job (despite the wordiness!) of describing my concerns. (Or maybe posting about it has helped clarify things for me a bit.)

Here are what I see as my strengths when it comes to discipline:
-I'm very patient
-I'm not prone to anger/yelling
-I'm good at seeing things (or trying to) from my child's perspective, and trying to figure out his needs
-I'm committed to being a conscious parent

And here are some of my weaknesses:
-I avoid conflict
-I'm not good at articulating/expressing my own emotions, especially negative ones
-I'm not good at identifying my own needs or setting boundaries
-I'm pretty lazy
-I have very little SELF discipline (at home that is -- I'm actually a very good employee)

I've seen a lot of posts in this forum about people struggling with their tendency to anger, and I feel for you! But -- that's not me. I'm wondering if others who are more similar to me might have some BTDT advice for me as the mother of a pretty easygoing toddler. I feel like up to this point I've just done what comes easily -- and so far so good. BUT -- I *know* that it will get harder, and I feel like it might be useful, while my son is young, to start working on some of my own issues. (Parenting as therapy? Bad idea??) I guess I'm a little afraid that if I continue parenting my older child as I have my baby, I'll end up with a spoiled kid and an unhappy, doormat mom. But I'm not really sure what to do (if anything) *right now*. (Right NOW we're both happy and healthy -- I think.)

Hope that's not all hopelessly theoretical!

-esme

[TinyMama]

Hi!
I think I parent in a similar way to you, although not for the same reasons. I wouldn't say we share specific weaknesses (I have my fair share, they're just different from yours). But I also rarely fight about anything w/my 17mo. I have very, very few rules, and they mostly center around physical stuff, since my dd is not very coordinated and presently can climb up onto things and not down (she steps off the edge of the stairs--straight off--assuming I will catch her, etc.). My biggest weakness currently is stopping DD from doing something, then catching myself and letting her do it--accidentally teaching her that fussing a/b something makes the rule change, when I am really correcting myself, not her.

I taught elementary school for almost 10 years, and I've spent time with many kids ages 5-10, and their families. I have to say, the happiest kids--and, ironically, the ones who are able to follow school rules with a good attitude-- are the ones whose parents set firm limits a/b things that are important to them, and trust their kids to make their own decisions about everything else. So, to make this more specific, the kindergardener who comes to school in her My Little Pony nightgown every day for a week is less likely to fight the lunch aide when she is asked to put her jacket on before going out to recess, since she knows to comply when she's directly told to do something. Does that make sense? I've thought about this a lot, and all my teaching was before I had DD, so I think that helped me see the kids without biasing my research, iykwim.

I guess what I'm saying is, just go with it for now. Issues will change, problems will develop, but parenting now to change something that hasn't happened yet just doesn't make sense to me.

[phatchristy]

Honestly, when it comes to parenting I think it's a good idea when you're well balanced and you don't sweat the small stuff.

Personally, your approach in a lot of ways is similar. What I think of first is age appropriateness and what is really important to me. Certain things are really unacceptable (not respecting others, being mean or rude, taking things away, etc.) and those are the things I concentrate my discipline with. Other things to me (like what you said with high chairs...personally I hate the thing, though we do have one in the house but never use it!) are not so important and are more about the child's preference. It's not a big deal if a toddler wants to sit with mommy and eat. Honestly, I treasure that sort of thing. Call me sappy, but it's nice that the kiddos want to be with me! And, they're attatched to me via the boob, co-sleeping, etc...I'm their safe zone...it makes sense to me!

Like how I may handle a situation with my second DD. She sometimes is picky about her utensils/cups/plates. DH at first tried battling her on it-- "stating it doesn't matter, you get what you got, etc". If she didn't like the color of the fork or what. But how I approach it is 'if you don't like this fork you're free to go put this one back and get another one you like more, but that's your choice." More or less I am telling her I don't think the color of the fork is important, but if she does she has the ability to change it herself.

The general thing here is I don't like the authoritarian approach for everyday things. But certain things I have my authoritarian moments of course...for issues of health and safety you don't wait around and see what happens.

I like to offer the kids a lot of choices, and I hope that I am a good example with my general approach to things. My mom was a lot like that. She basically let us do what we wanted EXCEPT we had very clear limits about what wasn't acceptable. I think it was a happy medium that way.

[ktmama]

First of all, you sound like such a great mom! I'm sure your instincts are very good and that you can trust yourself. While you see your challenges, at least you are aware of them, which is a victory in itself. And, I agree, that our children can be our greatest teachers.

My parenting style is VERY similar to yours. All I can say is that you are on to something: what works for toddlers doesn't necessarily work for older children and it's perfectly appropriate that your expectations of behavior and independence (in general) change with your child's age. I think the best thing that any parent can do is be really consistent. That requires us to think through our responses before we state them. That can be tough, especially if you err on the side of avoiding conflict. Some things ARE worth having conflict over, especially if you feel it will set a precedent for future requests/demands or (obviously) is a safety issue.

The way you handled bedtime was genius! It sounds like both of you got your needs met and you didn't interfere or try to control your dc's process of falling asleep (even though it took a looooong time). Kudos, mama.

[angelandmisha]

Sounds like you're doing a great job of meeting everyone's needs. My style is very similar to yours as are my strengths and weaknesses. I think outsiders might view me as permissive because we just don't have the power struggles that I see most parents having. I know I'm not permissive, I am flexible and responsive to my child. I have made it a point to not say "no" all the time- instead I tell him what TO do- ex. things we don't want him to touch I say "look with your eyes please." I have found so far this works. Sometimes it needs to be coupled with a gentle removal of his hand, but mostly he stops touching and just looks.

With your example of him tossing the books down, you could tell him to put them down gently (and model that) or you could get a rug or bathmat to put under the bed for additional padding/noise dampening. I'd probably also talk about how it sounds loud to your neighbor and it is nice to be considerate of that and put the books down gently.

I think parenting probably can be good therapy- you seem to be very self-aware and interested in working on what you perceive your issues to be. I think having children calls us to become better people if for no other reason than now someone we probably love more than ourselves is going to be copying everything we do- good or not so good. I know I think about that a lot since becoming a parent and am trying to work on what I have thought of as laziness around the house. (BTW FLYLady is great for that I'm finding- I'm finally starting to be able to manage to keep my house relatively clean thanks to her ideas- and I want to set a good example for my son in that area).

And yes, I think issues and challenges will change over time but the foundation of trust, respect and consideration that you are laying now can only serve you and your child well in the years to come.

[minimin]

Wow...it totally sounds like I could have written the OP. I was just discussing this with my DH & friends recently. My DD is the same age & I was also wondering at what point my GD became 'permissiveness'. Will be watching this thread with great interest :

[ShadowMom]

I am coming out of an abusive relationship and tend toward submissiveness. Is this part of your concern, OP?

I tend to avoid conflict, etc. all of the things you would expect from someone who is too submissive.

In retrospect, I would not change anything about how I parented at that age... I think you're doing a great job.

You have to watch for your own boundaries and hot spots, and if you're not doing a good job of that, you'll see the signs - angry, resentful, passive-aggressive, etc. If you have these signs now, I agree things need to change.

However, from your post at least, it sounds like you're doing OK (inasmuch as any parent can do ok with meeting their needs while having a toddler around ).

I don't think this is the age where you need to worry about being a doormat... I have an almost 5 year old, and he's definitely at that age. However, as he grew and went through stages, I realized pretty quickly what was going on and when I needed to change my parenting.

However, people also have vastly different ideas about what's appropriate for different age levels... that's why we are all such different parents, even among the GD crowd.

Honestly, I think that being overprotective and not letting our children explore and make decisions (and make mistakes) on their own is a bigger problem and danger, but that is also something that doesn't apply so much to that age.

Don't know if this helps any, but it sounds like you're doing a wonderful job and are a great mama!

[rockportmama]

I thought parenting was designed specifically as therapy!

Who cares what others think? You'll know when you need to set more limits.

As to how to express your own emotions, it helped me to start by expressing the positive ones. I use the formula from NVC (Non-Violent Communication) as a guide. "When I (see, hear) ____, I feel ______, because I need/value ____." So, as an example, "When I see you reading quietly by yourself, I feel happy, because I needed some Mama Time" Then when I got comfortable with that, I added in a few negatives. For example, "When I hear the books hit the floor, I feel nervous, because I'm afraid the noise might disturb the neighbors downstairs and I value being considerate."

The NVC book has a nice list of feelings/emotions. I'm still learning to use a bigger "emotional" vocabulary. Turns out, I really do have more emotions than just happy and sad!

HTH!!