Preschool or Kindergarten

[Ellen Griswold]

Ds is currently in preschool at our church, part of a K-8 school. Per their recommendation, we didn't send him on to kindergarten because of his social development (the easiest way to describe it is that he is immature), and now I regret my decision. He seems to be tangling with another, equally immature boy. I also think that we're also missing a critical reading window. I'm freaking out that if for some reason he would ever have to be retained, then he wouldn't graduate high school until age 20.

What would you do?

He is kindergarten age and resides in our public school district - meaning they would have to take him. This would be a huge, major, and potentially tramatic change for him. I realize that a retention would probably happen, but maybe not.

I'm open to just about any advice at this point because we just can't figure out how to proceed.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

It seems to me that you are looking to solve a problem -- interactions with another child -- with a solution that doesn't fit. You don't say that he is actually ready for K. If you were saying that he was bored, reading 1st grade books, something like that, then you would have the right solution. But if he's having social issues, then having him change schools is only likely to change *who* he is having issues with (there is always someone to tangle with), not eliminate the problem. And you would add a host of other issues at the same time. Unless there is more to the picture that you aren't sharing, seems like a poor bargain.

What are his teachers doing about the social issues? What do they recommend? What have you tried?

In terms of reading, is the preschool not teaching reading readiness? Phonics, that sort of thing? How is he doing with that? Lots of people think that we push reading too early anyway, so unless you see that he is ready to read but his teachers are holding him back, I wouldn't stress. If you think they are holding him back, then talk to them about that. Or teach reading skills at home.

[ChristaN]

Can you supplement the reading at home as the pp suggested and work with him on the social issues with this other boy both at school and out of school (helping him with strategies to approach his end of the situation differently)?It may be possible to have him just go directly into 1st in the ps next year rather than K if you feel that is in his best interests at that time as K is not mandatory in most states.

How old is he? Your comment about him being 20 when he graduated hs if he were to be retained a grade has me assuming he would be 6 now. eta: I'm seeing in your siggie that he'll be 6 in May. That actually isn't unreasonably old to start K next fall if you stay where he is for now. Did his current school have any ideas on dealing with immaturity other than delaying entry to K? Could you meet with the ps and see what they think?

[Ellen Griswold]

The solution to dealing with the immaturity was waiting another year before starting k. I guess I'm also concerned that he's showing some signs of reading readiness that I don't think ps is addressing. However, you are right in saying that as far as the social interactions go, there will always be another child to not get along with if I do move him. Unfortunately, the solution with the other boy is that they are (at least for right now) to just stay away from each other. I know that this isn't great, however, my son is so easily influenced by this particular child, that this is probably the best solution. Is he bored? Well, maybe. But I'm not sure that kindergarten would solve that problem. I'm getting some family pressure (kind and understanding, but pressure) that we shouldn't have held him back. FWIW, my sister (who is a former kindergarten teacher and the current parent of a kindergartener) thinks there isn't any reason to keep him out of kindergarten and she would move him. My child just seems to sink to what I would call the lowest common denominator child...he's not a leader. Is it better for him to be the most immature child and possibly be influenced for the better? Or is it better for him to try to develop some leadership potential?

Thanks!

[eepster]

IMO put him into K. Being an immature kindergartener has few lifelong consequences, but being an 18 yo highschooler with low selfesteem often does. Holding him back is good for the school, but may not be for your DS. He will more likely learn maturity by being around more mature kids who model mature social skills than he will hanging out with less mature kids, especially if he tends to be a follower.

I assume that the reason you would switch to a different school isn't simply to get away from a single kid who he does't get along with. I would hope that by switching schools the new school would want to help him to become more mature instead of simply taking the easy (easy for the school) way out. Kids usually out grow these maturity issues anyway. If doesn't seem to be out growing his maturity issues after he has spent a year in K, then you might want to have an evaluation to see if more is going on.

Heck, in many places K isn't required at all, you could just keep him home and enroll him straight into 1st grade next year.

[eccomama]

K would probably be the last time a child can act immature by school standards and get away with it. dd was in preschool and even though she's immature in a lot of ways the teachers recommended moving her to pre-K during the summer on trial basis. she went from being very nilly willy about shcool and challenging herself to loving school.
her preK/K is only 10 kids. it's more structured so it's challenging dd. her social skills are also coming along as she has more boundries set around her behavior and wants to fit in.
good luck

[Girlprof]

If the PS said he wasn't KG ready, I would put a fair amount of faith in that. Especially if it is social issues that are coming up now as well. That being said, they should be figuring out what to do so that these two boys reach some kind of appropriate relationship. Actually, this is a perfect problem to be addressing in preschool - learning how to get along with others or how to manage someone that you can't get along with.

In terms of reading, I don't know that there's some window of opportunity that opens and closes. If he's ready to learn to read, do more reading with him and he'll learn.

[ChristaN]

It sounded from your op that it was the preschool that said he wasn't ready for k, not the public school. FWIW, both of my dds are young for grade w/ bds just at the cut-off and both of my dds' preschool/prek teachers told me to wait a year to start them. My younger dd's teacher told me that she was too shy and didn't think that she was ready. We started them anyway b/c I thought they were ready and had read research on both sides of the issue that seemed to support starting them.

Both of my girls are really good students and have not had any social issues related to being on the younger end. The research, for the most part, does not support holding children out of K an extra year as being beneficial in terms of social outcomes or academics (other than for the first few years of elementary). The academic benefit that kids gain from being older doesn't last long term.

Boys often do have a lot of energy and being immature at 5 is not unusual. I do find that a lot of teachers and even administrators go with anecdotal stories and personal feelings in making recommendations about starting younger kids in K, though. My biggest concern with moving your ds now is having him be the new kid in class and the trauma of the change. Is preschool daycare for you or can you cut back his hours at preschool and hs somewhat the K material? How about if you approach the public school and tell them that you intend to start him as a 1st grader next year and what would work better -- moving him in as a kindergartener now or hsing K and then sending him next year? Would some variant of these ideas work?

[Ellen Griswold]

Originally Posted by ChristaN

Is preschool daycare for you or can you cut back his hours at preschool and hs somewhat the K material? How about if you approach the public school and tell them that you intend to start him as a 1st grader next year and what would work better -- moving him in as a kindergartener now or hsing K and then sending him next year? Would some variant of these ideas work?

On the contrary, preschool (the driving to and from) is a major pain for me with my toddler. I don't think he'll be ready to go to grade 1 next year without kindergarten now. Homeschooling would be a really great idea and dh has been trying very hard to work with him, however my personality and ds's personality aren't a great fit for homeschooling. And since I think a lot of his trouble stems from socialization, I don't want to pull him out of what he gets.

It also frustrates me, and I'm not entirely sure that this is true, that if I pull him out of preschool, send him to public k, that I won't be able to easily send him back to private school for gr 1. I'm sure it happens, but I'm trying to solve his schooling issues for the next 8 years! Can you tell I'm stressed?

Thanks for any and all advice mamas. My dh (public school teacher) is going to go observe him tomorrow, so we'll see if that reveals anything else.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by Ellen Griswold

It also frustrates me, and I'm not entirely sure that this is true, that if I pull him out of preschool, send him to public k, that I won't be able to easily send him back to private school for gr 1.

While this will vary from school to school, it might not be a problem if they have plenty of room in preK. Quite often parents drop out of private school and move their LOs to public when they get old enough to save money, this will leave slots open in the higher grades.

Is there a reason that you don't want him in the public school for the next 8 years?

[Mizelenius]

I would want to know how he is at home. Saying he is immature is too vague for me . . .I see more of a problem (in general) of a mismatch between the structure of schools and many boys (and some girls) vs. a boy actually being immature.

[lisac77]

I am always leery of preschools that recommend holding kids back. Not only is it a personal opinion of the teacher/director, there is also a financial benefit for the school of holding a child back a year.

My DS was born in June, and we had some concerns about his maturity going into K. The director of his preschool had told me from the beginning that he was "too young to go to Kindergarten." I agonized over putting him in or keeping him in pre-K for another year. Finally we put him in at grade level and crossed our fingers.

And it has been fine. Just fine. He is still working a bit below grade level but he's made huge, absolutely huge strides in his academic ability since he started school 9 weeks ago. He is even reading now... this is a kid who refused to learn his letters until he got into this classroom!

When I spoke to his teacher in our parent-teacher conference I mentioned that we were worried about him and whether he would do well in K, and she said that the current conventional wisdom is to keep the kids at grade level and do supplementary work with them at grade level as needed. DS has not needed any supplementary help, though. He is doing very well.

[Ellen Griswold]

Originally Posted by eepster

Is there a reason that you don't want him in the public school for the next 8 years?

Two really. The first reason is that we like the seemless transitions between religion and learning. They just incorporate learning the morals and stories and whatnot into their daily lessons. It is our church, so we agree with pretty much everything. My dh went to a private day school for most of his elementary years and he credits this with his high values today. We're Lutheran, if anybody cares.
The second reason is more from me. My dh is a public school teacher in our very small local school district. If my children attend school here they will eventually have their dad as 8th grade science teacher because he is the only one. My hang-up with this is the stigma of being a teacher's kid. I just can't handle the fact that someday my kid might be sitting in the cafeteria, doing something stupid, and some other teacher say to another, "You know who that is? That's Mr. R's kid." It puts too much pressure on the kid.

In the back of my mind, it has occurred to me that the preschool does benefit financially by me keeping him in their program. It is a new program, 5 half days a week, and it isn't full.

The behaviors? Well, he's wiggly, loud at times, trouble concentrating on things he has no interest in. Last year's teacher was concerned that he didn't seem to want to develop an close relationships with any other students except for one girl. For instance, he didn't gravitate to an activity because a friend was there, he just wanted to do his own thing. This is not a major issue, just an example of some of the stuff. He would do more parallel play. However, at the risk of being extremely rude, the pool of friends to chose from was a little shallow. We have a regularly scheduled conference on Tuesday if we let it go that long, and again, dh will be in class with him tomorrow.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by Ellen Griswold

The behaviors? Well, he's wiggly, loud at times, trouble concentrating on things he has no interest in. Last year's teacher was concerned that he didn't seem to want to develop an close relationships with any other students except for one girl. For instance, he didn't gravitate to an activity because a friend was there, he just wanted to do his own thing.

Is he bored? What does he do at home?

[bremen]

what about waiting until christmas, talking to the school director, and maybe moving him to kindy either at the same school, or public school then?
the transition might be a lot easier for him at a time like that

[Mizelenius]

Originally Posted by Ellen Griswold

The behaviors? Well, he's wiggly, loud at times, trouble concentrating on things he has no interest in. Last year's teacher was concerned that he didn't seem to want to develop an close relationships with any other students except for one girl. For instance, he didn't gravitate to an activity because a friend was there, he just wanted to do his own thing. This is not a major issue, just an example of some of the stuff. He would do more parallel play. However, at the risk of being extremely rude, the pool of friends to chose from was a little shallow. We have a regularly scheduled conference on Tuesday if we let it go that long, and again, dh will be in class with him tomorrow.

Your son sounds completely FINE. He sounds like a Kindergartner. As long as he has a teacher who understands what is developmentally appropriate work (CHOICE!) he will do well.

RE: the teacher as parent thing . . .yeah, that was me. My mom and her friend started the school I attended (and worked there), so my claim to fame (so to speak) followed me everywhere. It was fine. No stigma at all. When I got my master's, she was my professor! (And seriously, we all loved her!)

[ChristaN]

Originally Posted by Ellen Griswold

Last year's teacher was concerned that he didn't seem to want to develop an close relationships with any other students except for one girl. For instance, he didn't gravitate to an activity because a friend was there, he just wanted to do his own thing.

Is that just his personality, though? Some people just aren't extremely "middle of the party" types -- they like their time alone. I was given a similar reason by dd#1's prek teacher about not starting her in K. She's 10 now and still has the same personality. She likes maybe one close friend; keeping her in preschool for another year wouldn't have changed her personality.

I'm not totally clear -- is the school where this preschool is located the same school where you intend to send him for private elementary? If so, could you request a meeting with his current teacher, the kindergarten teacher and the director and see if they'd be willing to give a trial run of moving him to the K class there? Maybe if they gave it a quarter or so they'd see how he did in K as compared to pre-K and, if it didn't work, you could always repeat K there using the excuse with your son and the other kids that he was young and hadn't had a whole year of K this year, so he was going to do it again.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Originally Posted by ChristaN

I'm not totally clear -- is the school where this preschool is located the same school where you intend to send him for private elementary? If so, could you request a meeting with his current teacher, the kindergarten teacher and the director and see if they'd be willing to give a trial run of moving him to the K class there? Maybe if they gave it a quarter or so they'd see how he did in K as compared to pre-K and, if it didn't work, you could always repeat K there using the excuse with your son and the other kids that he was young and hadn't had a whole year of K this year, so he was going to do it again.

I think this is definitely worth exploring.

[mommy68]

I would consider holding him back and keeping him at the best level for his maturity level. My DD was in kindergarten last year and while most children were turning 6 there were also some kids in her class that were already 6 and were repeating kindergarten and turned 7 while in class, which meant they would be 8 in 1st grade this year. It didn't seem like those parents had a problem with it. In fact, the couple of moms with boys in kindergarten that were turning 7 years old in the spring months said they "chose" to hold them back and do two years of kindergarten.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by mommy68

I would consider holding him back and keeping him at the best level for his maturity level. My DD was in kindergarten last year and while most children were turning 6 there were also some kids in her class that were already 6 and were repeating kindergarten and turned 7 while in class, which meant they would be 8 in 1st grade this year. It didn't seem like those parents had a problem with it. In fact, the couple of moms with boys in kindergarten that were turning 7 years old in the spring months said they "chose" to hold them back and do two years of kindergarten.

It works great in kindergarten, and first grade. However, around 3rd or 4th grade the teasing starts. Often when they do well on school work or in sports it's attributed to their being older instead of b/c they worked hard or have talet. In junior high/middle school the kid starts to feel really odd when they hit puberty early. By high school their self esteem is shot, and to top it all off they reach the age where they can just drop out and get job in a much earlier grade.

Early elementry school and preschool teachers get to see how well it works in the beginning, but miss how badly it often falls apart by high school. The parents of kindergarteners who are so happy with it now may find themselves wondering what went wrong in highschool. Not getting an A+ in plays well with other and doesn't eat the sand from the sand table never kept anyone out of college. However, dropped out of school as a high school junior may. Obviously the exact out come isn't the same for everyone, but statistically it is better to say no to holding kids back.

This isn't something that only effects a kid for a year or two, it effects them for their whole lives. Doing what is easy right now can lead to a much harder time down the road.