Assault weapons - Page 2

[mesa]

Originally Posted by kriket

I totally respect that right!

Just for the sake of argument, what would you say if our kids were friends and I asked if your's could come to my house instead of your house because I was uncomfortable with your guns?

I understand and respect your right to keep your kids away from guns. I would totally be ok with you asking my kids to come to your house instead of ours, even though we feel that our storage system (locked gun safes, trigger locks, and ammo elsewhere) is perfectly adequate. As a matter of fact, I'd be thrilled if you were even THAT open minded. You'd be surprised how many people don't want their kids anywhere near ours just because we have a few guns in the basement. The funny thing is, they wouldn't even have known we owned guns if we didn't come out and tell them straight away.

[Annie44]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

I guess this is where the logic breaks down for me. I understand the argument for private citizens being able to purchase shotguns and pistols. What I do not get is why any "honest citizen" would need military type weapons that could kill forty or fifty people at a go. What legitimate purpose do they have outside a battlefield?

You can't find a weapon that will kill forty or fifty people at a time as a regular civilian. You cannot get actual military weapons as a civilian. My husband was a range NCO in the Marine Corps.. The only people that get them are criminals and that takes work. Saying that people can get military LIKE weapons is like comparing a military Humvee to the one they sell at a dealership for civilians. Yet the media runs off at the mouth with this and tries to get people to think that we are all running around with huge weapons that are used in war. Its simply not true. If you want to hear the differences my husband will gladly tell you for HOURS...

In the end the criminals have these firearms and we have plenty of gun control laws. We don't need anymore for the honest citizens. These laws don't help solve the crime issues. When you look into areas (Washington DC was a good example) that have serious gun control laws the murder and crimes rates are through the roof. Why? because when criminals KNOW that not one person has ANYTHING to defend themselves the criminals run WILD. They have no reason to not do what they want.

Here in Texas criminals think twice before because the majority of homeowners are gun owners. London has a total ban on guns and they have 500 times more gun crime than NYC. We have a close friend who just retired from the military over there and he said you can get a fully automatic AK for fairly cheap! Switzerland and Finland have NO gun control at all and they have almost no crime.

My frustration with people that are against my right to bear arms is they don't use facts when debating the issue. Most people come at me with emotions. In the end fact wins over emotion. If you are going to hate firearms and be against them at least have education on firearms. Heck it will actually help you when talking about the issue!

[SAHDS]

Originally Posted by kriket

Also, a lot of people carry guns for "protection" (yes, my state has a concealed carry license ) I have found aiming a bow at a person far more effective then a gun.

I've yet to see a person walk around with a bow strapped to their back and a pocketful of arrows. A gun is small and can be concealed. It's not for intimidation, it's there if needed.

Also, exactly how have you "found aiming a bow at a person far more effective then a gun"? I'd love details.

Originally Posted by kriket

Just for the sake of argument, what would you say if our kids were friends and I asked if your's could come to my house instead of your house because I was uncomfortable with your guns?

My DH is an LEO and all of our guns are kept in a safe that is bolted to our bedroom floor. However, if you had a problem with that, I wold respect it. I'd actually be impressed that you asked. I've only had one person ask me about weapons (of any sort). I ask parents about any weapons and animals the may have.

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

I could imagine a housewife wanting one and being safer overall with it (not only in terms of self-defense, but in owning a gun that can be handled).

I have my own AR15. I've shot it multiple times and feel MUCH more comfortable with that in my home than I would a handgun (although we have those also). I've seen, from personal experience, that a person shot 6 times with a pistol (a .45 even) can keep on going as though nothing happened. For me, that was a pretty chilling scenario and, I know, an assault rifle would have made that impossible.

Although, I do think a handgun is much easier to handle. Smaller, so less awkward. Lighter, so easier to aim and hold. Racking rounds are easier in handguns, imo, and they're equal when it comes to loading/unloading (since they both use magazines).

Originally Posted by ShwarmaQueen

And what good is a gun in a safe, locked by combo IF someone is breaking into your house?

It's not difficult to unlock the safe and grab a firearm.

Originally Posted by Annie44

In the end the criminals have these firearms and we have plenty of gun control laws. We don't need anymore for the honest citizens. These laws don't help solve the crime issues. When you look into areas (Washington DC was a good example) that have serious gun control laws the murder and crimes rates are through the roof. Why? because when criminals KNOW that not one person has ANYTHING to defend themselves the criminals run WILD. They have no reason to not do what they want.

Here in Texas criminals think twice before because the majority of homeowners are gun owners. London has a total ban on guns and they have 500 times more gun crime than NYC. We have a close friend who just retired from the military over there and he said you can get a fully automatic AK for fairly cheap! Switzerland and Finland have NO gun control at all and they have almost no crime.

My frustration with people that are against my right to bear arms is they don't use facts when debating the issue. Most people come at me with emotions. In the end fact wins over emotion. If you are going to hate firearms and be against them at least have education on firearms. Heck it will actually help you when talking about the issue!

[athansor]

Originally Posted by Annie44

Here in Texas criminals think twice before because the majority of homeowners are gun owners. London has a total ban on guns and they have 500 times more gun crime than NYC. We have a close friend who just retired from the military over there and he said you can get a fully automatic AK for fairly cheap! Switzerland and Finland have NO gun control at all and they have almost no crime.

Do you have a cite for this number (500 times more gun crime in London than NYC)?

Also, it's probably just me, but we have a few guns in the gun safe. I don't and won't ever hunt, but I have gone out shooting cans. However, in a crisis, it takes me so long to remember how to open the gun safe, and then loading something, etc...basically the guns are useless to me in self defense. With little kids, though, if we have to have these things, I'd much rather keep them locked up.

[ShwarmaQueen]

Originally Posted by Annie44

Here in Texas criminals think twice before because the majority of homeowners are gun owners. London has a total ban on guns and they have 500 times more gun crime than NYC. We have a close friend who just retired from the military over there and he said you can get a fully automatic AK for fairly cheap! Switzerland and Finland have NO gun control at all and they have almost no crime.

I've lived in TX almost my whole life and I only know a handful of homeowners who own guns. And in general, those who do own guns have a sorta paranoia attitude about all of the what-ifs in life- I'd rather just put my faith in god to protect me from all of the "unknowns".

As for these statistics, I would also like to know where you get them from- cite please? I lived in Europe (in a major city) for a year and I never heard of a single child shooting- here in the U.S. it's a normal weekly event.

[Wildwomyn]

Knife crime is a big deal in the UK. And NYC has fairly strict gun control as the US goes.

[SAHDS]

Originally Posted by athansor

However, in a crisis, it takes me so long to remember how to open the gun safe, and then loading something, etc...basically the guns are useless to me in self defense.

You should practice more. Get more familiar with the safe, the guns, loading, what to do in case of a jam, etc. It will make you feel much better.

Originally Posted by Wildwomyn

Knife crime is a big deal in the UK.

Exactly. Take away knives and it would be baseball bats or clubs.

[Wildwomyn]

Originally Posted by SAHDS

Exactly. Take away knives and it would be baseball bats or clubs.

Not my point - I doubt they that would actually have time to get worked up over knives if they had a big gun problem. It's a lot easier to kill someone with a gun, accidentally or on purpose. Basically, my point was that I doubt all of the claims made in that post. (I don't believe Texas has an especially low crime rate either, but I live in NYC and I've read about the London thing just lately so I'm more sure of those.)

[ShwarmaQueen]

Originally Posted by Wildwomyn

Basically, my point was that I doubt all of the claims made in that post (I don't believe Texas has an especially low crime rate either, but I live in NYC, and I've read about the London thing just lately).

And you're absolutely right, Texas doesn't have a low crime rate that's for sure. See stats http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/08s0301.pdf

Guns don't deter crime. Guns just create a false sense of security.

[Annie44]

Give me some time to get a Works Cited together for you. I have NO problem doing that. I am sure you have noticed from my previous posting that I know my stuff.

[kriket]

Originally Posted by SAHDS

Exactly. Take away knives and it would be baseball bats or clubs.

hum, I can defend myself against a knife, bat or club. Its not hard to teach people how to unarm another person. I can even unarm a man with a gun, if I can get close enough before he shoots me.

I agree that guns offer false security, the risk/reward ration ratio is too low for me.

[Suzukimom]

I don't see the reason why someone can't wait three days before getting a gun. In my opinion, assault weapons aren't need to protect yourself, unless you live in a warzone, which is what many of our inner cities are becoming.

Has anyone read the book by Geoffrey Canada (director of the Harlem Children's Zone), Fist, Stick, Knife, Gun?
I chronicles the history of violence in the inner city and his own life.
Read the reviews on Amazon. This is a powerful book which may change the way you view guns and gun control.

http://www.amazon.com/Fist-Stick-Kni...6350279&sr=8-1

[Goimir]

Originally Posted by Suzukimom

I don't see the reason why someone can't wait three days before getting a gun. In my opinion, assault weapons aren't need to protect yourself, unless you live in a warzone, which is what many of our inner cities are becoming.

Has anyone read the book by Geoffrey Canada (director of the Harlem Children's Zone), Fist, Stick, Knife, Gun?
I chronicles the history of violence in the inner city and his own life.
Read the reviews on Amazon. This is a powerful book which may change the way you view guns and gun control.

http://www.amazon.com/Fist-Stick-Kni...6350279&sr=8-1

No, I haven't read that book, and I really have no use for it. I live in a rural environment. The state police took about an hour to respond to an armed bank robbery out here, and the bank was half an hour closer to the state police barracks than where I live. When the offal contacts the air circulating device, I'm worried about me and mine.

What difference does it make if a first-time criminal robs your house tomorrow or on Friday? Why should I be subject to a 3 day waiting period to defend myself? Would society be better off if the Chinese Invention had never been used for weapons? Perhaps, but that can is long-since opened. The worms are everywhere. You cannot avoid gun violence by burying your head in the sand. The DC handgun ban did nothing for gun violence except give the city the dubious distinction of having the highest murder rate in the US.

What exactly IS an assault weapon, anyway. :

[SAHDS]

Originally Posted by Goimir

What exactly IS an assault weapon, anyway. :

A butter knife. IF you assault someone with it. Sorry, all snarkiness aside, DH and I were just chuckling at the title of this thread.

Originally Posted by kriket

I agree that guns offer false security, the risk/reward ration ratio is too low for me.

Then you shouldn't have one. BUT, for people who use and view them as a tool and know how to use one as such, should be able to.

Criminals are going to have guns. Why should law abiding citizens be unarmed? Tips the scales in the wrong way.

Originally Posted by Wildwomyn

It's a lot easier to kill someone with a gun, accidentally or on purpose. Basically, my point was that I doubt all of the claims made in that post. (I don't believe Texas has an especially low crime rate either, but I live in NYC and I've read about the London thing just lately so I'm more sure of those.)

Then you've seen the stats on England? How the rates have skyrocketed and the majority are from knives. Of course, people still have guns, illegally, and use those too. Bats/blunt objects take a chunk as do fists. My point is, take away guns and people will find another way OR they will find guns illegally. The only people that suffer are the ones who obey the law. Sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me.

Being a female who weighs less than 100 lbs. and with a DH that works the graveyard shift, I do feel better knowing that I, at least, may have a fair fight if anything were to happen. God forbid.

[ShwarmaQueen]

Originally Posted by Goimir

The DC handgun ban did nothing for gun violence except give the city the dubious distinction of having the highest murder rate in the US.

I have a hard time believing that that the handgun ban is related to the rise in the murder rate. Poverty is more likely responsible.

[Wildwomyn]

According to the London Metropolitan Police Authority, the number of murders in 2006-2007 (official stats appear to be March to March, for some reason) was 162. The UK gives the population for London in 2007 as over 7.5 million. For 2007 (presumably, calendar year), the FBI lists the amount of murders in New York City as 496, with a city population of 8,220,196.

[taterbug1999]

Regardless of whose stats come from where or are most correct, gun laws only affect law abiding citizens. Can that point actually be argued? Criminals skirt the law as they please so any type of gun bans don't smack at them. As for law abiding citizens who follow the rules to obtain ANY form of firearm, I don't care. It is not the guy who waits his time, fills out his permits and then takes home an semi-automatic to his gun safe that I worry about. It is the punk who breaks into my house in the middle of the night with whatever gun he stole or bought on the sly having followed absolutely no laws to obtain his weapon of choice.

For many generations before ours guns where a part of family life. They hunted for food or shot for sport as a family. They were taught a respect for such a weapon and what could come of improper use. It was part of their lifestyle and therefore common place and "no bid deal". It is not the guns that have changed over the generations, it is us as humans. Taking away the right to bear arms for lawful citizens would not change the evil side of humanity.

Accidents do happen, horrible ones sometimes, but you take a much greater risk driving with your child to the grocery than having any form of gun in your home.

[Annie44]

Here are a few mistakes you have made in that comparison. First the murder weapon of choice in London is a broken beer bottle. (per my friend retired military and police officer from there.) Your next problem is England didn't like the way their gun crimes stats were looking as a result they got rid of their gun crime category and lumped it into what they now call Offensive Weapons. Check out those stats on your link. Thankfully they have recently broken it down to gun and knife which is lower down. These are the stats we used in comparing this NOT the murder rate. The other problem you have here is you just compared London Metro area to NYC proper NOT the NYC Metro Area. The population for the NYC Metro Area is about 21,976,224. Then finally I would like you to take note the INSANE stats on Londons common assaults which are 44,315. Wow thats a lot of assaults most likely because they know they can get away with it.

In the end we also need to keep in mind that crime stats aren't always true for both sides of the debate. Most cities fib when it comes to their crimes stats and a lot of crime goes unreported. If you honestly believe they don't fudge the numbers then its pretty obvious to me that you don't have a family member in law enforcement. In one big city they would put what really was a murder into another category so they would have the highest murder rate in the US again. Here is an article about Londons gun crime despite their stupid ban: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2317307.ece (I have more where that came from)

The crime rate in Texas has gone up since Hurricane Katrina that however has nothing to do with firearms. Here are a few articles on that: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06239/716412-84.stm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...020500884.html

This is a good article:
Crime & Criminal Justice More Guns, Less Crime (Again) in 2007 *
Gun Ownership at All-Time High, Violent Crime Near 30-Year Low
Over the last two decades, many "gun control" laws have been eliminated or made less restrictive at the federal, state, and local levels. Numbers of privately-owned guns and Right-to-Carry states have risen to all-time highs. Every step of the way, "gun control" groups predicted violent crime would increase. Instead, violent crime decreased dramatically.
Less "Gun Control": The Brady Act’s handgun waiting period expired in 1998, in favor of the NRA-supported National Instant Check System. Some states thereafter eliminated waiting periods or purchase permit requirements. The federal "assault weapon" ban expired in 2004. Since 1987, 30 states have eliminated prohibitory or restrictive carry laws, in favor of Right-to-Carry (RTC) laws; there are now 40 RTC states. All states have hunter protection laws, 46 have range protection laws, 47 prohibit local jurisdictions from imposing gun laws more restrictive than state law, 44 protect the right to arms in their constitutions, and Congress and 33 states have prohibited frivolous lawsuits against the firearm industry.1 Studies by or for Congress, the Congressional Research Service, the Library of Congress, the National Institute of Justice, the National Academy of Sciences, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have found no evidence that "gun control" reduces crime.2
More Guns: The number of new guns rises by about 4.5 million every year.3 There are 250+ million privately-owned firearms in the United States.4
Less Violent Crime: Since 1991, the nation’s total violent crime rate is down 38 percent. (Murder is down 43 percent; rape, 29 percent; robbery, 46 percent; and aggravated assault, 35 percent.) Violent crime dropped every year from 1991-2004, to a 30-year low; increased slightly in 2005 and 2006; and decreased to nearly the 2004 level in 2007. Every year since 2002, the violent crime rate has been lower than anytime since 1974. Every year since 1999, the murder rate has been lower than anytime since 1966. States with RTC laws, compared to the rest of the country, have lower violent crime rates on average: total violent crime by 24 percent, murder, 28 percent; robbery, 50 percent; and aggravated assault, 11 percent.5
Notes:
1. For fact sheets and gun law information, visit www.nraila.org/Issues/.
2. Roth, Koper, et al., Impact Evaluation of the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act of 1994, March 13, 1997, www.urban.org/url.cfm?ID=406797; Reedy and Koper, "Impact of handgun types on gun assault outcomes: a comparison of gun assaults involving semiautomatic pistols and revolvers," Injury Prevention 2003, http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/9/2/151; Koper et al., Report to the National Institute of Justice, An Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban: Impacts on Gun Markets and Gun Violence, 1994-2003, June 2004, http://www.sas.upenn.edu/jerrylee/jl..._aw_final.pdf; Wm. J. Krouse, Congressional Research Service Report for Congress, "Semiautomatic Assault Weapons Ban," Dec. 16, 2004; Library of Congress, Report for Congress: Firearms Regulations in Various Foreign Countries, May 1998, LL98-3, 97-2010; Task Force on Community Preventive Service, "First Reports Evaluating the Effectiveness of Strategies for Preventing Violence: Firearms Laws," Morbidity and Mortaility Weekly Report, Oct. 3, 2003, www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm; National Research Council, "Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review," National Academies Press, 2005 , http://books.nap.edu/books/0309091241/html/index.html.
3. BATFE, Annual Firearm Manufacturers and Export Reports, www.atf.gov/firearms/stats/index.htm.
4. BATFE estimated 215 million guns in 1999 (Crime Gun Trace Reports, 1999, National Report, Nov. 2000, p. ix , www.atf.gov/firearms/ycgii/1999/index.htm). The National Academy of Sciences estimated 258 million (National Research Council, Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review, National Academies Press, 2005). The Bureau of Justice Statistics reports 72 million approved new and used firearm transactions by firearm dealers through the National Instant Check System between 1999-2007 ("Background Checks for Firearm Transfers, 2007," http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov./bjs/pub/ht...bcft07st01.htm).
5. FBI http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_04.html Bureau of Justice Statistics, http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/. RTC comparison based on data in the FBI table.*


Another article on assault weapons: http://www.armedfemalesofamerica.com/sunsettheban.htm

Books to read: From My Cold Dead Fingers: Why America Needs Guns by Sheriff Richard I. Mack (this one being a favorite), More Guns Less Crime by John R. Lott, Thank God I Had a Gun: True Accounts of Self-Defense John R. Lott,

Okay let me know if you would like more... I could be here all day maybe all year.