PC/Hib Reaction

[ColwynsMommy]

Hey guys -

So, I've been reading about this DTaP scream. Fiona had DTaP (Tripedia) at 2 months and had no reaction. She got PC and Hib at 3 months. About 3 hours after the shot (before she was due for her next dose of Tylenol), she started crying unconsolably, and it took me an hour to get her calmed down. Now, it wasn't a high pitched scream, like.. a horror movie type scream, but it was definitely loud, constant, pained crying. Can PC and Hib vaccines cause the same type of screaming as DTaP? It never occured to me that it was a reaction.. I figured her leg was just sore and the Tylenol had worn off.. but my other kids never cried that hard for so long. I'm worried that she had some sort of encephalitic reaction and that when she gets them again (her appointment's in 2 weeks), it'll happen again, worse.

I'm pro-vax, but prefer to space them out.. but I don't want to brush off something that might have been a reaction. What do you think?

[alegna]

Could go either way... what's your mommy-gut say?

Personally I wouldn't vax after that sort of response.

-Angela

[Emmeline II]

You do not have to go to that appoinment in two weeks; if you go you do not have to vaccinate. Do you think that the risk of your child getting those diseases is great enough to risk another (possible worse as reactions are generally progressive) reaction?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ht=DTaP+scream

The scream is called cry-encephalitis. The cause is infection of the brain from the vaccine virus/bacteria.
When the body is injected with virus/bacteria it can travel to the brain and cause encephalitis.
Encephalitis can be a reaction to any vaccine but the DTaP is notorious for it.

Encephalitis without being vaccinated generally follows an illness.
When it happens due to an illness, the doctor will treat it in the correct way.

But when you call and give the exact same symptoms and the doctor knows the child has just been vaccinated, he will tell you it is a normal reaction to the vaccine and will simply say to give the child some Tylenol.
_____________________________________________

1. Name of the disease
2. Description of the disease
3. Length of time from initial infection to end of all symptoms
4. Infectious period
5. Normal symptoms of the disease
6. Known serious consequences of the disease
7. Proportion of persons infected developing serious consequences
8. Transmission route of the disease
9. Prevalence of the disease
10. Treatments of the disease and efficacy of those treatments
11. Relevant research about the disease
12. Name of the vaccine
13. Company that makes the vaccine
14. Contents of the vaccine
14A. The significance of whether or not the vaccine is live
15. History of development of the vaccine
16. Known side-effects of the vaccine and rate of incidence of those side-effects
17. Possible side-effects not yet acknowledged by the vaccine maker
18. Relevant research into the vaccine
19. How effective is the vaccine at preventing the disease?
20.What is the vaccine meant to do? (Many vaccines are not meant to prevent infection or transmission).
21.Number of cases reported each year.
22.Number of deaths reported each year from the vaccine and natural disease.

Here are some sources to help you out:

Inside Vaccines

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/mmwr_wk.html (download the current issue)
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...k-chapters.htm
http://vaers.hhs.gov/pdf/PackageInserts.pdf
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...40451107552&q=
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...87981735&hl=en
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...ses&deaths.pdf

[Marnica]

Certainly sounds like a reaction to me. I would hold off until you can learn more about what is being injected (and the possible effects these ingredients can have) into your LO.

[ColwynsMommy]

I know I don't have to go. I know I don't have to consent to vaccines. That wasn't my question.

My question was whether or not that sounded like an encephalitic cry or just crying because of soreness in the injection site.

She cried long and hard, but not for over an hour, and it only happened the once. It was not extremely high pitched, just loud and pained. She felt warm, but she always feels warm when she cries.

My initial instinct was that the first dose of Tylenol had worn off and her leg was hurting. When the nurse was giving her the shots, it looked like she was having trouble. I couldn't figure it out exactly at the time, as I was busy holding my screaming child, but it looked like she may have pushed the needle in more forcefully than I've usually seen, or held it in longer.. I couldn't really put my finger on why it seemed off, but I did think the way she did the shots was a little off. This is still what I tend to believe.. that it was just pain in the injection site, but if there's a chance that it was due to encephalitis, then I'm not sure what to do.

I worked in an ER for many years, and I saw so, so many sick children.. not all of whom pulled through. It's just a trade off.. if she has to have a sore leg to prevent a few of those diseases, fine.. but if it's something more serious, I need to reconsider giving her the PC and HIB shots.

So, again.. does that sound like crying due to soreness or encephalitis? I've never seen/heard the encephalitis cry before.

[ColwynsMommy]

Originally Posted by Marnica

Certainly sounds like a reaction to me. I would hold off until you can learn more about what is being injected (and the possible effects these ingredients can have) into your LO.

Thanks! I reread through the relevant sections in the Dr. Sears book last night, and aside from the viruses themselves, she wasn't exposed to anything that wasn't in the DTaP vaccine, which she didn't react to.

We're planning on switching doctors for the kids.. I'll probably cancel the shot-only visit at the old pedi and switch them, then wait to do the PC/HIB (if at all) until after her 6 mo. visit with the new doctor.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by ColwynsMommy

I know I don't have to go. I know I don't have to consent to vaccines. That wasn't my question.

My question was whether or not that sounded like an encephalitic cry or just crying because of soreness in the injection site.

She cried long and hard, but not for over an hour, and it only happened the once. It was not extremely high pitched, just loud and pained. She felt warm, but she always feels warm when she cries.

My initial instinct was that the first dose of Tylenol had worn off and her leg was hurting. When the nurse was giving her the shots, it looked like she was having trouble. I couldn't figure it out exactly at the time, as I was busy holding my screaming child, but it looked like she may have pushed the needle in more forcefully than I've usually seen, or held it in longer.. I couldn't really put my finger on why it seemed off, but I did think the way she did the shots was a little off. This is still what I tend to believe.. that it was just pain in the injection site, but if there's a chance that it was due to encephalitis, then I'm not sure what to do.

I worked in an ER for many years, and I saw so, so many sick children.. not all of whom pulled through. It's just a trade off.. if she has to have a sore leg to prevent a few of those diseases, fine.. but if it's something more serious, I need to reconsider giving her the PC and HIB shots.

So, again.. does that sound like crying due to soreness or encephalitis? I've never seen/heard the encephalitis cry before.

There's really no way to tell.

Statistically, neither prevnar nor hib reduce cases of meningitis due to the way they cause serotype replacement. Add to that the fact that hib is now nearly non-existent, and it seems to me to be a big risk to take to give either of those again in case it WAS a significant reaction.

-Angela

[CookAMH]

Originally Posted by alegna

There's really no way to tell.

Statistically, neither prevnar nor hib reduce cases of meningitis due to the way they cause serotype replacement. Add to that the fact that hib is now nearly non-existent, and it seems to me to be a big risk to take to give either of those again in case it WAS a significant reaction.

-Angela

:

Also, you also need to go by how YOUR child reacted. They say Hib is a less reactive vaccine, but perhaps not for your baby.

[Sileree]

I'm fairly certain I've read in the package inserts for Hib and Pc that encephalitis/crying is an adverse reaction reported either during the clinical trials or after marketing.

[nicoliani]

I think use something stronger than Tylenol, to prevent a similiar reaction.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by nicoliani

I think use something stronger than Tylenol, to prevent a similiar reaction.

Not sure what you're suggesting... but tylenol won't prevent a vax reaction.

-Angela

[AutumnMama]

Some good advice here. Like some of the PP's said, there really is no way to tell if it was a reaction to one of the ingredients in the vaccine, or just soreness in the injection site.
I did want to add that just because your little one did not have a bad reaction to one DTaP shot does NOT mean that she won't in the future.

DD had at least 2 DTaP shots before she reacted (typical DTaP scream, scared the ever-loving crap out of me). I think sometimes it can be a cumulative effect.

Good luck with your decisions, it can be so hard to know what the "right" thing to do is

[momtokev]

DS also had screaming after the Hib and Prevnar given at the same time.. which I ended up assuming was the Prevnar, as the nurses and doc said is a more "mean" shot in terms of pain at the injection site. ?? Anyway he cried for more than an hour and I worried about the same things you're asking about.

We only do one shot at a time now and spaced out, and only selective shots, but we did do Prevnar again even though I was worried about the same or a worse reaction, I prayed like crazy and thank God he was and is fine. He was also fine with the Hib separately which he's had two more of now.

Like everyone else said it is hard to say, and we of course were very fortunate that the reaction did not happen again or get worse, but you'll have to trust your instincts and decide what is best for your LO. GL!

[mama1803]

Not to be disprespectful of your decision to vax, but

I worked in an ER for many years, and I saw so, so many sick children.. not all of whom pulled through. It's just a trade off.. if she has to have a sore leg to prevent a few of those diseases, fine.. but if it's something more serious, I need to reconsider giving her the PC and HIB shots.



But my guess is that those sick children in the ER weren't sick from polio, mumps, rubella, diptheria, measles, tetnus, hepatisis or chicken pox.

[ColwynsMommy]

Originally Posted by mama1803

I worked in an ER for many years, and I saw so, so many sick children.. not all of whom pulled through. It's just a trade off.. if she has to have a sore leg to prevent a few of those diseases, fine.. but if it's something more serious, I need to reconsider giving her the PC and HIB shots.



But my guess is that those sick children in the ER weren't sick from polio, mumps, rubella, diptheria, measles, tetnus, hepatisis or chicken pox.

I'm not questioning whether to vax for those things. My question had nothing to do with polio, mumps, rubella, diptheria, measles, tetanus, hepatitis, or chicken pox (though I did see a child who needed treatment for Rubella), so I'm not sure why you're bringing them up. I'm questioning about vaxes for diseases I did see frequently. Pertussis, meningitis, etc.

[ColwynsMommy]

Originally Posted by momtokev

DS also had screaming after the Hib and Prevnar given at the same time.. which I ended up assuming was the Prevnar, as the nurses and doc said is a more "mean" shot in terms of pain at the injection site. ?? Anyway he cried for more than an hour and I worried about the same things you're asking about.

We only do one shot at a time now and spaced out, and only selective shots, but we did do Prevnar again even though I was worried about the same or a worse reaction, I prayed like crazy and thank God he was and is fine. He was also fine with the Hib separately which he's had two more of now.

Like everyone else said it is hard to say, and we of course were very fortunate that the reaction did not happen again or get worse, but you'll have to trust your instincts and decide what is best for your LO. GL!

Thank you so much for sharing your experience! If after talking with our new doc, we decide to vax for PC and HIB, we'll do them separately. Thanks so much!

[mama1803]

I brought it up because

there is so much misinformation floating around regarding vaxes and the diseases they supposedly prevent. To me your comment implied that ERs were full of kids sick with VPDs (you didn't specify which ones). And while I realize that some kids who do get VPDs do get seriously ill and die, that is not true in the vast majority of cases. Even the CDC statistics show this. So I would hate for anyone to read such a comment and think that it is commonplace for children to not only catch a vpd, but to require hospitalization because of it. Furthermore, there are many reported cases of vpds in kids who are vaccinated--as you know no vaccine is 100% effective and many don't prevent transmission.

As I stated before, I respect your decision to vaccinate your child based on your own set of beliefs, risk factors, etc. just as I hope others respect my decision to not vax based on what I believe to be true.

[MadameXCupcake]

Originally Posted by mama1803

there is so much misinformation floating around regarding vaxes and the diseases they supposedly prevent. To me your comment implied that ERs were full of kids sick with VPDs (you didn't specify which ones). And while I realize that some kids who do get VPDs do get seriously ill and die, that is not true in the vast majority of cases. Even the CDC statistics show this. So I would hate for anyone to read such a comment and think that it is commonplace for children to not only catch a vpd, but to require hospitalization because of it. Furthermore, there are many reported cases of vpds in kids who are vaccinated--as you know no vaccine is 100% effective and many don't prevent transmission.

Thank you for bringing it up! Its always nice to have a reminder, same for Alegna who mentioned despite prevnar and Hib meningitis cases aren't any lower.