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Can We Discuss DTaP and Transmission?

post #1 of 42
11/14/08 at 2:08pm
Thread Starter 
I think most of us can agree here that the pertussis vax does not prevent transmission.

However doesn't it prevent some transmission? If you have pertussis but no symptoms you're much less likely to spread germs. You're not coughing all over the place, nose running, etc.

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post #2 of 42
11/14/08 at 2:24pm
I believe it could reduce transmission.
post #3 of 42
11/14/08 at 2:40pm
I might be wrong here, but the vaccine is against the toxin which causes the 'whoop' in WC and not the bacteria. So, you would still get the runny nose and even a cough, but just not the 'whoop'. You could spread it like a common cold without knowing that *that* particular cold was WC.
post #4 of 42
11/14/08 at 3:12pm
My understanding is that the vaccine helps to build resistance to the toxins from the bacteria.

So, you can of course carry the bacteria. The bacteria does its job of multiplying and in the process cause by-products which are the toxins.

Normally you would show a reaction to the toxins. This buildup of resistance though prevents that. It does not however prevent you from carrying and spreading the bacteria around. And that without symptoms.

See how ineffective the vaccine actually is?

You have whooping cough but don't know it. This prevents you from taking any precautions.

here is a good article - http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/...s-yo-yo-stats/
post #5 of 42
11/14/08 at 5:58pm
I thought much of the problem of transmission is that the pertussis part of the vaccine is supposed to reduce the symptoms from the toxin, but the bacteria's been busily multiplying for a couple weeks, I think, before the coughing gets bad. I thought pertussis presented as a fairly regular cold for a week or two, and then the bad coughing would set in, and I thought that was when the body was really feeling the effects of the toxin. But the person has still been spreading bacteria while they just felt like they had a regular cold, and that part isn't affected by the vaccine. By the time the coughing gets bad, I thought the person was becoming less contagious anyway.
post #6 of 42
11/14/08 at 6:58pm
I'd understood that the same principle applies to the diphtheria portion as well, that it's a vaccine for the toxin, not the bacteria, so it too wouldn't prevent carriage. Top it off with tetanus not being a communicable disease, and DTaP appears to contribute not one iota to herd immunity.

In answer to your original question, I believe you're right, that if you aren't actively coughing, there is less likelihood of transmission. Whether the subclinical case is because of the vaccine or not is debatable though.
post #7 of 42
11/14/08 at 9:23pm
Thread Starter 
Ok that makes sense. I thought you wouldn't feel sick at all, no sneezing, runny nose, etc.

So in the end it's probably about the same: You have DTaP and don't feel very ill so you're out spreading the virus unknowingly, or you don't have DTaP and feel bad but you're coughing is spreading the virus. And that of course doesn't even touch on DTaP's actual effectiveness.
post #8 of 42
11/14/08 at 10:35pm
I recently asked this exact question to my son's Infectious Disease doctor (he has a primary immune deficiency with t-cell deficit, so he's followed very closely) He told me that this is incorrect, that the pertussis portion of the DTaP vaccine IS against the bacteria, it's the tetanus and diptheria portions that are against the toxin. So therefore it WILL prevent transmission. I pointed out to him that the CDC's own webpage says (in a foot note, I believe) that "it's not clear that TDaP [the adult version] prevents transmission" even though the market it heavily to parents and grandparents of infants.

I'm still trying to get verification, but this is what he told me, and as an Infectious Disease doctor, this is supposedly his specialty...take that for what it's worth I guess...
post #9 of 42
11/14/08 at 10:40pm
did the infectious disease specialist ever send you those canadian references?
post #10 of 42
11/14/08 at 10:41pm
Here is the package insert which in the very first sentence says that it's Diptheria toxoid and Tetanus toxoid, but Pertussis bacteria (acellular because the old whole-cell bacteria was thought to be the cause of the adverse reactions in the DTP vaccine; that's what the "a" in DTaP stands for) It appears that Connor's dr was right, the pertussis portion of the vaccine DOES protect against the bacteria, so in theory SHOULD prevent transmission.

I'm guessing that the issue is the efficacy of the vaccine. PLUS, immunity is wearing off, most adults no long have immunity, and adults tend not to have the classic "whoop", so they are ill with pertussis without knowing it and spreading it around.

It's a very frustrating vaccine...
post #11 of 42
11/14/08 at 10:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lirpasirhc View Post
did the infectious disease specialist ever send you those canadian references?
Not yet, I"ll probably get them in the mail when I get his records from that appt. That takes up to two weeks. THe Canadian studies were supposed to show that the vaccine actually is effective against transmission...supposedly...we'll see.
post #12 of 42
11/14/08 at 11:11pm
I think I'm going mad. I could have sworn I read in the Pink Book chapter on pertussis that the vax doesn't prevent transmission and now I can't find that passage. Did they rewrite it in the last couple of months or am I really going nuts? : I'll read it more carefully, but this is strange.
post #13 of 42
11/14/08 at 11:31pm
WEll, here are a couple of studies quoted -

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/...-transmission/

So, who is right?
post #14 of 42
11/14/08 at 11:32pm
Hmmm... it may have to do with how it works then. I know that the IPV doesn't prevent transmission either (virus instead of bacteria of course, so whole different creature...)

-Angela
post #15 of 42
11/15/08 at 6:03am
Quote:
Hmmm... it may have to do with how it works then. I know that the IPV doesn't prevent transmission either (virus instead of bacteria of course, so whole different creature...)
Angela,
Do you have info about this? I'd be interested to learn more about this. I thought all vaccines were suppose to prevent transmission... Thanks!
post #16 of 42
11/15/08 at 8:01am
Yeah, some studies do report that the vaccine prevents transmission. And theoretically it could work if protects against the bacteria.

I guess to me the proof that it doesn't work is the prevalence of the disease. If it did prevent tranmission then would the disease be endemic among recently vaccinated children? I don't think so.
post #17 of 42
11/15/08 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chelsmm View Post
Angela,
Do you have info about this? I'd be interested to learn more about this. I thought all vaccines were suppose to prevent transmission... Thanks!
Not Angela, but I asked this question several months ago and got this answer:

Quote:
Inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) needs to be injected and works by producing protective antibodies in the blood (serum immunity) - thus preventing the spread of poliovirus to the central nervous system. However, it induces only very low levels of immunity to polivirus locally, inside the gut. As a result, it provides individual protection against polio paralysis but, unlike OPV, cannot prevent the spread of wild polio virus.
http://www.polioeradication.org/vaccines.asp
post #18 of 42
11/15/08 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2boyzmama View Post
Here is the package insert which in the very first sentence says that it's Diptheria toxoid and Tetanus toxoid, but Pertussis bacteria (acellular because the old whole-cell bacteria was thought to be the cause of the adverse reactions in the DTP vaccine; that's what the "a" in DTaP stands for) It appears that Connor's dr was right, the pertussis portion of the vaccine DOES protect against the bacteria, so in theory SHOULD prevent transmission.
The first sentence says it contains antigens for the pertussis toxin, not the bacteria:

INFANRIX (Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Acellular Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed) is a noninfectious, sterile combination of diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and 3 pertussis antigens [inactivated pertussis toxin (PT)
post #19 of 42
11/15/08 at 2:21pm
insert

Quote:
INFANRIX (Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Acellular Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed) is a noninfectious, sterile combination of diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and 3 pertussis antigens [inactivated pertussis toxin (PT) and formaldehyde-treated filamentous hemagglutinin (FHA) and pertactin (69 kiloDalton outer membrane protein)] adsorbed onto aluminum hydroxide. INFANRIX is intended for intramuscular injection only.
post #20 of 42
11/15/08 at 4:20pm
Sorry, my bad

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Mothering › Mothering Discussion Forums › Health › Vaccinations › Vaccinations Archives › Diptheria, Pertussis, & Tetanus › Can We Discuss DTaP and Transmission?