Counting to three.... - Page 3

[COVegMom]

Originally Posted by Bleu

I don't count. I don't expect respecting-a-child to look, feel or sound like respecting-an-adult, but there is something about counting that feels disrespectful to me ... to be perfectly honest, my dislike of it goes beyond what I can articulate. I was mostly reading this thread to see if someone else could name what it is that rubs me the wrong way about it so much!

Anyway, I do a few things and of course they've evolved as my dc has gotten older. I give ETAs: "We have to leave in five minutes. When you get to a stopping point, put on your shoes so we can go." So that way I set the expectation whithout any expectation of doing it now. Then I try to give one more ETA: "Two more minutes! Do your very last thing and then we will go." Then I will probably model putting on my shoes, then take his hand and walk him to the shoes without any more discussion. If I am getting pushback I will repeat that we need to go and why, and if that doesn't end the discussing, I'll boil it down to "Your shoes need to go on. You can put them on or I can put them on."

It's not as coercion-free as I'd prefer, but frankly, on us, consensual living degenerates into child holding veto power, and I'm not willing to wait that out, or clever enough to reframe it acceptably when he's tired / hungry / overstimulated, or patient enough to let go of my agenda long enough to let the consensus happen, or whatever alchemy it would take.

Yes, this is our approach as well.

I think that if you are choosing to use coercion, even if it is as gentle as putting a mildly annoyed child's shoes on because you need to leave for an appointment, you should let it be clear that that's what you are doing.

Giving the choice of doing it yourself now or letting me do it after I count to X is not really a choice. Even if the child "chooses" to do it now on his/her own, it is still a coercion because it is going to happen one way or another so it is a pseudo-choice IMO.

So if you are going to enforce something, I believe you should allow the child to express freely that they object and all of the emotions that go with being forced to do something they don't want to do.

ETA: I think counting also can tend to set up a dynamic where kids learn to dread the countdown and put everything off until the last warning and the last count. This seems like the opposite of what parents are usually trying to achieve, which is to be taken seriously when they ask a child to do something important/necessary.

My goal with GD is to create the kind of loving, respectful, and trusting relationship where, when I say "no" or ask my child to do or not do something, s/he is able to believe that it is for a really good reason. (It is NOT my goal to raise a child who obeys immediately or always follows orders!) Creating a false consensus by sheer power of will (waiting so long the child is exhausted and can't fight it anymore or offering pseudo-choices where there really is no option to reject what you are asking) undermines this trust and respect IMO.

[captain crunchy]

My goal with GD is to create the kind of loving, respectful, and trusting relationship where, when I say "no" or ask my child to do or not do something, s/he is able to believe that it is for a really good reason.

Isn't that most people's goal with GD?

What I am saying is, my three year old is no where near as mature or thoughtful or able to put herself into the shoes (ha, ha pun intended) of someone else like I am at 31 and I don't expect her to be. I would never see her complying with something because it is important to me or I have a good reason as a measure of how well I was doing to create a "loving, respectful, and trusting relationship."

We have a totally loving, respectful and trusthing relationship. But, she is THREE. The kid is three. This is why she thought it was an amazing idea to ride her bike down the second story flight of stairs -- and had I not "coerced" her by saying -- no way...sorry... she totally would have. It does not at all mean we don't have a loving, trusting relationship. It means, the kid has been on the planet for fewer years than some pairs of underpants I own.

I always bristle a bit at the suggestion that so long as we do everything "right" our children will always act as we think they should because well, we have worked so hard to create that loving, trusting relationship. What a big shock it is when a child has a mind of their own and despite our "loving guidance" still sometimes get their heart set on doing something that could potentially be disasterous.

In my riding down the flight of stairs on a bike example, no, I am not willing to sit and negotiate for an hour just so I can pat myself on the back and feel okay that no one was coerced -- when in reality it is coercion, just a way of "coercing" her into agreeing with my point of view and then congratulating myself because I sweet-talked her into not knowing it. When the ONLY agreeable solution is her actually riding the darn bike down the flight of stairs -- no, I am not prepared for the "natural consequence".

So back to counting -- there is no pseudo choice. I am extremely honest with dd, to a fault. We have an appointment, you *have* to come with me (because honestly, I am not reconstructing my entire day and imposing upon friends and relatives because a three year old doesn't feel like putting on shoes) -- and your shoes *have* to be on *at some point* -- when that point comes ... you can do it yourself, or I can help you and I will give you a concrete example of how long I am willing to wait after giving reminders/options. Where is the pseudo choice in that?

Then again, I jumped off the consensual living wagon about the time I sat outside a strip mall for three hours trying to "not coerce" my then 2.75 year old to leave

[Xoe]

I try not to count....but if I count I count to 1. For whatever reason, my DD1 has never caused me to go beyond 1. Perhaps it's the tone in my voice. Since I don't believe in counting, if she's done something that makes me count, she's pissed me off.

xoe

[transylvania_mom]

I understand that kids must listen to their parents when there is an immediate danger or go somewhere and shouldn't be late

BUT

to those who train their children to obey, don't you wonder if they will obey other adults without questioning, or their boss/husband/wife when they grow up? Or do you expect them to obey only you and magically be able to stand up for themselves in other situations?

[Xoe]

Transylvania....honestly, I do think DD1 will obey other people unless she somehow developes a spin of her own. Something about that child....you don't have to do or say much to get her to comply. She seems to have a people pleaser's nature. Hopefully, over time, I can teach her to stand up for herself. But you can't always change some character traits. My DH isn't a very tough person, either, to put it politely.

xoe

[transylvania_mom]

Originally Posted by Xoe

Transylvania....honestly, I do think DD1 will obey other people unless she somehow developes a spin of her own. Something about that child....you don't have to do or say much to get her to comply. She seems to have a people pleaser's nature. Hopefully, over time, I can teach her to stand up for herself. But you can't always change some character traits. My DH isn't a very tough person, either, to put it politely.

xoe

oh, I was asking especially the people who replied to this thread saying that they train their children to obey and expect instant obedience.
I understand the arguments in favour of counting as a transition tool or distraction for some children. It wouldn't work with my son as he would simply wait to see what I'll do when I get to 3

[Shami]

Originally Posted by transylvania_mom

I understand that kids must listen to their parents when there is an immediate danger or go somewhere and shouldn't be late

BUT

to those who train their children to obey, don't you wonder if they will obey other adults without questioning, or their boss/husband/wife when they grow up? Or do you expect them to obey only you and magically be able to stand up for themselves in other situations?

There are millions of people who are raised to obey parents immediately. It doesn't mean they can't stand up for themselves. I was raised this way and I stand up for myself. I don't think that one causes the other.

[DariusMom]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

Isn't that most people's goal with GD?

What I am saying is, my three year old is no where near as mature or thoughtful or able to put herself into the shoes (ha, ha pun intended) of someone else like I am at 31 and I don't expect her to be. I would never see her complying with something because it is important to me or I have a good reason as a measure of how well I was doing to create a "loving, respectful, and trusting relationship."

We have a totally loving, respectful and trusthing relationship. But, she is THREE. The kid is three. This is why she thought it was an amazing idea to ride her bike down the second story flight of stairs -- and had I not "coerced" her by saying -- no way...sorry... she totally would have. It does not at all mean we don't have a loving, trusting relationship. It means, the kid has been on the planet for fewer years than some pairs of underpants I own.

I always bristle a bit at the suggestion that so long as we do everything "right" our children will always act as we think they should because well, we have worked so hard to create that loving, trusting relationship. What a big shock it is when a child has a mind of their own and despite our "loving guidance" still sometimes get their heart set on doing something that could potentially be disasterous.

In my riding down the flight of stairs on a bike example, no, I am not willing to sit and negotiate for an hour just so I can pat myself on the back and feel okay that no one was coerced -- when in reality it is coercion, just a way of "coercing" her into agreeing with my point of view and then congratulating myself because I sweet-talked her into not knowing it. When the ONLY agreeable solution is her actually riding the darn bike down the flight of stairs -- no, I am not prepared for the "natural consequence".

So back to counting -- there is no pseudo choice. I am extremely honest with dd, to a fault. We have an appointment, you *have* to come with me (because honestly, I am not reconstructing my entire day and imposing upon friends and relatives because a three year old doesn't feel like putting on shoes) -- and your shoes *have* to be on *at some point* -- when that point comes ... you can do it yourself, or I can help you and I will give you a concrete example of how long I am willing to wait after giving reminders/options. Where is the pseudo choice in that?

Then again, I jumped off the consensual living wagon about the time I sat outside a strip mall for three hours trying to "not coerce" my then 2.75 year old to leave

Thank you, thank you, thank you for this! Great, articulate response that sums up how I feel completely! Especially the bolded part, which articulates what I've been trying think/write/say for ages now re: some aspects of CL (and we are CL around 80% of the time around here!).

[Mimi]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

Isn't that most people's goal with GD?

What I am saying is, my three year old is no where near as mature or thoughtful or able to put herself into the shoes (ha, ha pun intended) of someone else like I am at 31 and I don't expect her to be. I would never see her complying with something because it is important to me or I have a good reason as a measure of how well I was doing to create a "loving, respectful, and trusting relationship."

We have a totally loving, respectful and trusthing relationship. But, she is THREE. The kid is three. This is why she thought it was an amazing idea to ride her bike down the second story flight of stairs -- and had I not "coerced" her by saying -- no way...sorry... she totally would have. It does not at all mean we don't have a loving, trusting relationship. It means, the kid has been on the planet for fewer years than some pairs of underpants I own.

I always bristle a bit at the suggestion that so long as we do everything "right" our children will always act as we think they should because well, we have worked so hard to create that loving, trusting relationship. What a big shock it is when a child has a mind of their own and despite our "loving guidance" still sometimes get their heart set on doing something that could potentially be disasterous.

In my riding down the flight of stairs on a bike example, no, I am not willing to sit and negotiate for an hour just so I can pat myself on the back and feel okay that no one was coerced -- when in reality it is coercion, just a way of "coercing" her into agreeing with my point of view and then congratulating myself because I sweet-talked her into not knowing it. When the ONLY agreeable solution is her actually riding the darn bike down the flight of stairs -- no, I am not prepared for the "natural consequence".

So back to counting -- there is no pseudo choice. I am extremely honest with dd, to a fault. We have an appointment, you *have* to come with me (because honestly, I am not reconstructing my entire day and imposing upon friends and relatives because a three year old doesn't feel like putting on shoes) -- and your shoes *have* to be on *at some point* -- when that point comes ... you can do it yourself, or I can help you and I will give you a concrete example of how long I am willing to wait after giving reminders/options. Where is the pseudo choice in that?

Then again, I jumped off the consensual living wagon about the time I sat outside a strip mall for three hours trying to "not coerce" my then 2.75 year old to leave

yes,yes yes!
i agree with this 100%!

[transylvania_mom]

Originally Posted by Shami

There are millions of people who are raised to obey parents immediately. It doesn't mean they can't stand up for themselves. I was raised this way and I stand up for myself. I don't think that one causes the other.

Millions? How do you know that?
My experience is quite different. I've seen lots of people (I wouldn't say millions) who were trained to obey and continued to do so in their adult life.

[littlemizflava]

yes i do it but my way works i dont use it as a form of punishment when i reach 3 ur going to get XX this method actually helps me avoid battles and makes things move much smoother in this home...

i dont do 1-2-3. i deside how long depending on the situatuation how long to wait inbetween.

if i say i am leaving a store after standing there for xx minutes waiting on you looking at something. i have said lets go, time to go, lets go look at __, we have to go we are going to be late how many times so when i count to 3 i am walking away.

if i am out with my bestfriend and her 2 plus my 2 and they are running around i am not yelling out their names ____ come here 4 times. i will say 1.........2........3 and that just tells them that i want them back by my side.

if my 2 are fighting i give them count to 3 and if they dont stop fighting of XX i will step in.

this method works for my family because both my children hate someone to come and touch them (taking their hand/picked up) or sometimes even coming to them and saying "its time to go". the counting lets them know time is running out finish whatever and come. seriously i have a boy who would be amazing for horor movies with his high peircing scream and this avoids it for the most part.

[COVegMom]

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

Isn't that most people's goal with GD?

I think so, but I see some people saying in this thread that they want to train their children to obey immediately and that seems like they may have a different goal, like to be respected as the parent/authority figure. Maybe I am reading too much into that.

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

We have a totally loving, respectful and trusthing relationship.

I don't doubt this. I am not criticizing anyone here or their parenting. I am just trying to offer another perspective. The OP and a few others seem a little uncomfortable about using this method and I am trying (rather awkwardly it appears) to explain why I am uncomfortable with it.

Originally Posted by captain crunchy

In my riding down the flight of stairs on a bike example, no, I am not willing to sit and negotiate for an hour just so I can pat myself on the back and feel okay that no one was coerced -- when in reality it is coercion, just a way of "coercing" her into agreeing with my point of view and then congratulating myself because I sweet-talked her into not knowing it. When the ONLY agreeable solution is her actually riding the darn bike down the flight of stairs -- no, I am not prepared for the "natural consequence".

So back to counting -- there is no pseudo choice. I am extremely honest with dd, to a fault. We have an appointment, you *have* to come with me (because honestly, I am not reconstructing my entire day and imposing upon friends and relatives because a three year old doesn't feel like putting on shoes) -- and your shoes *have* to be on *at some point* -- when that point comes ... you can do it yourself, or I can help you and I will give you a concrete example of how long I am willing to wait after giving reminders/options. Where is the pseudo choice in that?

I think I am having trouble seeing how these two situations are really different (except that obviously one involves saftey and is more urgent). In both situations there is only one solution that is acceptable to you, i.e. not riding the bike down the stairs and getting the shoes on the feet. I am not saying that this is unreasonable. I think where I am getting hung up is that I see "helping" as assisting someone with something they WANT to do and are unable to or are having difficulty doing. If the person does not want to do it, it is not help it is force IMO. It may be gentle, reasonable, empathetic force, but is nevertheless a coercion. I get really uncomfortable with calling coercion something else (like calling punishment "logical consequences").

I'm not trying to pick on you Captain_Crunchy, you just offered some good examples to talk about and I'm not feeling creative enough to come up with my own. And again, I don't mean to criticize anyone, just trying to offer another perspective. Discussions wouldn't be very informative if we all agreed all the time. I had never heard of counting being used as a transition and I can see how that could work for some kids, like singing a song, or other transition activities.

[MamaKalena]

Originally Posted by ann_of_loxley

We count. I count to 10 when its time to leave a place. Though now I have graduated to a visual 60 second timer. DS needs a lot of help with transitions...that is, moving from one activity to the other - this might be from leaving the house to go to the playground, leaving the playground to go have lunch, etc.
BUT - and a big but here... I do not do anything to my DS if said time is up and he does not budge. A lot of people who I know who 'count' - then do something to their child if they didnt do said request. Be it spanking them, punishing them, physically forcing them, etc. DS has decided he was not ready to go and needed a bit more help with the transition a handful of times. Other than that, I have no problem with it. He knows I wont do anything to him. There is no obligation there. I just use it to help with the transition (and it really does help, beside the fact he has SPD and I suspect an ASD - most small children do need some help with transitions). If I felt I needed to use it to control DS, then I would have to take a step back and look a bit deeper at the issue at hand. (which means you would have to get more specific about what your child is not doing that you are requesting of them). Most people that I see who use 'counting' to control their child (besides how I use it, thats how they do use it) - use it as a quick fix to get their child to comply quickly to their wishes. They give them the false choice of either doing A or getting B (which is always a punishment of some kind). - That, I do not agree with.

We also use counting to help with transitions, like putting on his shoes and getting ready to go somewhere or coming to the table to eat lunch. DS has a harder time with transitions than the average kid and is also easily frustrated and very inflexible in general about almost everything all the time, so he needs extra help detaching himself from things. The casual "two more minutes" warning that I hear other parents use loosely at the playground NEVER works for us.

I try and make it fun and count in tickles. (i.e. one tickle, two tickles, three tickles). And then I really do tickle him. Sometimes I ask him where he wants his tickles, like under his armpits or on his head. He loves it and it **usually** works and keeps him in good spirits. But sometimes he has a meltdown when I start counting and screams his head off. Then I have to figure something else out. But first I try the tickle counting and pray that it works

[skreader]

Originally Posted by transylvania_mom

Millions? How do you know that?
My experience is quite different. I've seen lots of people (I wouldn't say millions) who were trained to obey and continued to do so in their adult life.

I think it's about teaching the kids to recognize legitimate requests from legitimate authority. For example, teaching your kids that it's a good thing to listen to the bus-driver when s/he says "no standing up on the seats" or listening to your parents when they say "time to brush teeth" or the teacher to "stop talking w/ your neighbor so all the children can listen to the story teacher is reading aloud", or from the neighbor "don't play soccer in front of my plate glass windows" is following legitimate requests that serve the child or the greater community.

Ar the same time, you also teach them that illegitimate requests from legitimate authority should be ignored or refused. If a bigger kid tells you in the playground "go kick so-and-so" you should refuse. If best-friend asks you to do their homework for them, you should refuse, and so forth.

It's subtle and also a constant learning process. It requires dialog. As children get older, it's a fun thing to discuss at the dinner table - examples of when someone should question authority and when it's not appropriate or right; when it's right and proper to sacrifice one's preferences or desires for "the greater good", and when it's not right.

For example, recently in the LegCo one of the legislators (a member of the League of Social Democrats) threw a banana at one of the members of Govt. during a debate on increasing the old age benefit known as fruit money. My take on it was that it was right and proper to question the Govt. official and to tell him what he was suggesting was wrong, but that throwing the banana in the LegCo chamber was wrong. Discussed it w/ the kids -what do THEY think about it.

Lots of learning and thinking opportunities in the years that they grow up.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by MamaKalena

We also use counting to help with transitions, like putting on his shoes and getting ready to go somewhere or coming to the table to eat lunch. DS has a harder time with transitions than the average kid and is also easily frustrated and very inflexible in general about almost everything all the time, so he needs extra help detaching himself from things. The casual "two more minutes" warning that I hear other parents use loosely at the playground NEVER works for us.

Part of it working is in watching the kid for signs that they're ready to transition and not actually timing out 2 minutes. But, yeah, I could totally see needing to be right there with a kid to work together on transitioning.

[SusieRain]

I use a timer a lot but I do not count. I will often set the timer for 10 minutes and tell the children that all the toys should be off the floor by time we hear the buzzer. Then, we can do something together. Or something similar to this. It is great to help them move from one activity to the next.

[MoonStarFalling]

We tried counting but it didn't work. It just made ds hysterical. If it's serious then I don't take the time to count. I just help him out right away. If it's not serious then I use a timer. I'll set it for 10 mins and tell him you have this much time to get dressed so we can go. Seems to work great for him.

[Tdunahoo]

My question is to those who are basically saying that they could not "force" their child to do something (for example, putting shoes on because you have an appointment) what do you do in those situations? Do you just say "oh well, I guess we're not going out today" or is there another method other than counting or saying "we're leaving in 10 mins so lets start thinking about getting ready and finish up what we're doing" and then putting on their shoes for them?

Basically i'm asking What if you say "hey i'm getting frusterated and I'd like you to get ready please" and your 3 year old says "no" and you don't believe in helping them put on their shoes??

I'll add that I have a 10 month old so i'm still a ways off of this, but i'm just very curious.

[~mermommy~]

No Way

Why are you giving your child 3 opportunities to disobey? You are saying to your child, "You don't need to listen to me know, but soon you will".

Your children are smarter then you are giving them credit for if you are counting. They can hear you. They can understand you. They are smart enough to listen the first time. You are only making yourself upset that they aren't listening.

[MamaKalena]

Originally Posted by Tdunahoo

My question is to those who are basically saying that they could not "force" their child to do something (for example, putting shoes on because you have an appointment) what do you do in those situations? Do you just say "oh well, I guess we're not going out today" or is there another method other than counting or saying "we're leaving in 10 mins so lets start thinking about getting ready and finish up what we're doing" and then putting on their shoes for them?

Basically i'm asking What if you say "hey i'm getting frusterated and I'd like you to get ready please" and your 3 year old says "no" and you don't believe in helping them put on their shoes??

I'll add that I have a 10 month old so i'm still a ways off of this, but i'm just very curious.

I usually give advance warnings approx. 10, 20, and 30 minutes before we need to leave and explain that we need to start getting ready to go to gymnastics, park, etc. so as not to surprise him. During this time, I am usually helping him get dressed or brush his teeth while he plays. I don't start counting until I am packed and ready to walk out the door and I really need him to get his shoes on.

And no, he never puts his shoes on himself. (Although I know he can do it himself when he really wants to go outside and he thinks I'm not there, because I've seen him do it.) But (sigh) he rarely ever will do it himself when I'm around. So I do it for him or start the process for him and ask him to tighten the velcro. I don't start counting unless he refuses to stop playing to come and sit by the door so I can help him put his shoes on.

When he DOESN'T come after counting and we are seriously in a hurry and will be late then I usually say, "Okay, I'm starting to get VERY frustrated that you aren't helping me get your shoes on." That works sometimes. If we aren't in a hurry and I have the time and patience, I'll tell a story or something really interesting, like I am a car with eyes and mouth who can talk and that ALWAYS works, and he will come running. But it takes a lot of energy on my behalf to do that every single time I need him to get his shoes on, so it's not a realistic solution for every day situations, KWIM.