is it possible to never punish--really never?

[captain optimism]

Our 18 year old niece visited this weekend. Her mom is a lot like my mom was--a yeller and a hitter, flying off the handle easily, etc. Except I think her mom might be worse? Anyway my niece lies to her regularly, in a vain attempt to stop her from getting angry. One thing that makes my SIL angry is when my niece forgets things. At 18, dn forgets things all the time. It's amazing to me that she is so forgetful! I think being yelled at and hit for it made things a lot worse. (Of course the lying has exacerbated the existing lack of mutual trust to a point that is totally ridiculous...)

So last night my dh and I were talking, and I said, "that's why I don't want to punish ds at all." He thought I meant that I wanted to be completely permissive! I said, no. I want to have discipline and guidance, just no punishment.

Then we got into a conversation about the difference between "consequences" and punishment.

Is there any model of parenting where you don't use "consequences" at all? I don't like the idea of being on the opposite team from my son. For instance, if he forgets things, I don't want him to lie to me about it. I want to be able to help him with behavior, not force him to behave.

He's not a toddler yet so we haven't dealt with anything more serious than constant biting. (Oy! he bites me!:eek But of course we don't use "consequences" on a 10 month old, that would be crazy! We just move our bodies out of the range of the teeth!) We are going to be moving into toddler-land soon. Can we stop bad behavior without using punishments, or are we going to be stuck being punitive?

[simonee]

Look in the archives here, or do a google, for Taking Children Seriously. It's a taboo-ish subject here because fo the way previous discussions went, but it might be inspiring for you.

[captain optimism]

I've read about Taking Children Seriously. I didn't know it was taboo here, but I don't think it's my thing.

I'm a little too mainstream for that.

I guess, rereading my OP, that does sound like a match to what I was asking.

[NoraJadesMama]

Hi captain optimism,

I sometimes think of "non-punitive disicpline" as a short-hand for gentle-discipline.

To my mind the concept of punishments is based on the ideas that (1) a child learns best by feeling bad, and that (2) the parent's job is to shape them by supplying the right bad experiences to shape behavior. We don't agree with either. As for #1, I think each person learns in their own style, and some may benefit from suffering/regret (eg., going outside without a hat, feeling cold, and then remembering it in the future) but some may benefit more from positive experiences without needing negative ones to keep them on track (eg., it feels warm to wear my hat--I will put it on). Many good lessons can be learned without suffering/shame/guilt/etc. As for #2, I feel that my best chances for guiding my children lie in being on their team, like you said. So if anything we're trying to build ever more positives into our discipline approaches.

If my dd gets out of control, it often helps for her to be alone for a while (perhaps because it helps her become grounded again, I'm not sure) and I will require that she do so, but not as a punishment, simply as my best idea for what might help. I would give her options of where she could go. Often she goes to the nursery, and we have a great selection of books-on-tape for her to listen to and a guinea pig for her to pet. Even when she goes reluctantly (after all, she was out of control) she always gets lost in her own world there and re-emerges in a brighter space. For us this in non-punitive because the intention is not to have her suffer and therefore be more motivated to try harder to be "good", indeed I try to make it as pleasant as possible for her--the whole intention is just to solve the problem in the best way I know how (while also trying to figure out the underlying problem).

Each situation that arises we try to address in the most positive and effective way we can. If we slip into an oppositional role, it's not because the situation requires it, but because we are too tired/ confused/ cranky/ overwhelmed to see the positive opportunity that is available to us. Our intention is always to be on her team, always striving to be more empathic to her needs, feelings, and perceptions, and always seeking to treat her with respect, helping her feel good/strong/whole whatever her behavior.

Warmly,
Hilary

Edited to say: I used the being-alone example because It's one of the few things we do "against her will", and therefore shows (to my mind) the difference that our intention makes in whether it is a punishment or not. Fortunately we can solve most problems more overtly as a team.

[Dar]

A punishment is either adding something unpleasant or taking away something pleasant when a behavior occurs, with the goal that this will decrease the likelihood that the behavior will recur. Generally what people call a "consequence" or a "logical consequence" is a punishment with a prettier name. Saying "You didn't clean your legos up when I asked so now they're going to be put away in the closet for a while" is an example of a punishment.

I try very hard to parent without punishment, and I'm about 99% succesful. The exceptions come when I'm stressed or triggered and feel trapped, and I generally rescind it when I calm down. That happens maybe twice a year. I also try to help my child avoid "natural consequences", because I think that's the kind thing to do. So if she seems to be dressed inappropriately for the weather but says she won't be cold, I will throw a jacket in the car anyway. I'd rather model kindness and being prepared and allow her to learn from that than model "tough luck, you should have brought a jacket".

dar

[captain optimism]

Okay! This sounds more like it.

Now, let me bring up my dh's objection. I said, "I want to help ds shape his goals for his behavior, and help him achieve those goals." he said, "You are assuming that children behave rationally toward a well-articulated goal." So then we each brought up examples from our childhoods.

My dh used to sneak candy. he was a very sneaky little guy, apparently! He did a lot of secretive things. His parents never hit but he did have consequences. He said, "What if ds wants to eat a lot of candy, and sneaks it behind your back?"

So I said, "Well, first we would talk about it, and try to come to some solution to the behavior. After all, the reason we don't want him to eat a lot of candy is that the 'natural consequence' of eating a lot of candy is a tummy ache, and also potentially cavities and other health problems. So maybe we would decide to give him sweets regularly so that he wouldn't feel like he had to sneak them."

My dh said, "I had sweets regularly, I just really wanted to eat more."

Uh oh. I'm getting boxed in, not by my own child, but by the child my dh used to be!

I know that my MIL believes in being interventionistic with her children NOW, when they are adults. maybe my dh was sneaking candy to express his desire for autonomy?

What if my ds feels like he needs autonomy, and does something bad for him? Wait, doesn't that happen like all the time with 2 and 3 year olds?

[pamelamama]

:eyes very interesting thread :eyes

captain optimism, you have great posts. I'm gonna start following you around mdc. :wink

[NoraJadesMama]

With a punitive discipline style it may be more possible to come up with an advance plan (or penalty) for such things as candy sneaking. With GD it's always so much more individual. Problem solving is much more relationship-based than based on a specific behavior, since the meaning of the behavior and the family's options are so individual.

With the candy sneaking, if we had candy around I certainly wouldn't blame my little ones for just helping themselves, and wouldn't try to make them see it my way so that they resist the temptation. What a recipe for a battle! While our children are small we have solved the problem by not having candy around (we don't eat it ourselves). Since all of the foods that are around are ones we are fully comfortable with, they can eat anything at any time. Then when we go somewhere where there's likely to be junk food we let them have whatever they want. That way they get a "green light" in both situations. When they're older if they want to have candy at home, we'll talk to them about their desires and thoughts and we'll share our perspective/ personal needs and as a team we'll come up with a solution that everyone is comfortable with.

But the larger issue with sneaking is the relationship--it's a red flag for communication break-down, and thus an opportunity to improve the relationship. Your dh did not feel he could trust his parents to listen to his problem (including listening for unspoken but important unmet needs, eg., autonomy, attention, fun things to *do*...) and come to a real solution.

To me this example is a great argument IN FAVOR of GD. Wouldn't he have preferred it if his parents had thought about things from his perspective instead of leaving the candy out and then condemning him for "sneaking"? Wouldn't it have been great if he'd been able to trust them to work through the problem with him?

Lots of us are afraid when we consider our own childhoods! But keep in mind all of the things that are different, including the type of relationship you and your partner are already forging with your sweet baby. Working together you will be able to respond in positive ways to whatever problems do arise.

[Suzetta]

As a classroom teacher, I see discipline as something I teach children to have for themselves, not as 'punishment' or 'consequences'. I have yet to meet a child (even the ones who seem the most defiant and rude) who does not wish to please an adult who shows them respect, kindness and love. The harsh/rude children often behave that way because they are doing what is 'expected' of them, as their reputations precede them.

Obviously, that approach is workable, as I can reason with them once they reach school age

Society has consequences for poor behavior...if you speed, you might get a ticket. Children need to be raised to understand that is the case. That does not necessarily mean that every single infraction a child causes needs to be followed up with a consequence. This is where parents get tired and frustrated. Nobody can keep up with such a ridiculous system. However, if adults consistently let the children know what to do/not to do in certain situations, they will eventually get it.

Too many times I see folks endlessly telling kids what not to do, and yelling at them for it. When do they tell their kids what to do? When do children see a role model for good behavior?

In this respect, I see that discipline should be pro-active, rather than re-active.

Adults who yell, get frustrated, and spank kids are often (not always) out of control and angry. They are reacting. Their behavior at this time is time is not geared to 'help' the child who is the focus of the discipline. It is more of a way of venting their frustrations. In my opinion if you must yell or hit, you should do it to someone your own size...then they can defend themselves. To treat a small child that way is no better than the schoolyard bully picking on a younger child.

When dealing with smaller children and babies, you must be creative at promoting good behavior proactively. Even your infant knows the difference between a smiling face and sweet voice and an unsmiling face and stern voice. When you like their behavior, tell them how proud you are of them. Before going some place, tell them how you want them to behave. When they fill your expectation, make sure to tell them how you like this behavior.

Also...I must add that as much as I do not believe in 'punishing' poor behavior, I also do not believe in giving material 'rewards' such as gifts and treats for good behavior. Giving rewards makes children behave for rewards. They eventually realize that the reward is insignificant, and as a result they do not feel the need to do the proper behavior unless the reward is better. By making their reward your approval, they internalize the need to behave as a result of their respect for the adult.

[Piglet68]

What a fabulous thread!

I was just like your DH, Captain. I had a sweet tooth and I snuck candy. As an older child, and especially as a teenager, I lied any time I figured that asking would result in "NO". Obviously their reasons for saying no meant nothing to me, as I honestly didn't believe they cared about my feelings in the matter. I felt they had "my best interests at heart", but a very warped sense of what my best interests were.

Avoiding punishment was foremost in my mind, but I didn't do that by submitting, I did it by becoming subversive. I was always *desperate* to be independent, from the time I can remember, I hated rules and restrictions and to this day I still do. The distinction being that when a rule makes sense to me I have no problem following it. The phrase I hated most as a child was "Because I am your parent and I said so". I was spanked, not severely, but looking back that is not what really bothered me, it was the in-your-face inequality in power that I struggled against from day one.

I think what people are saying about the nature of the relationship is key. Your son should not feel any reason to lie to you, if you raise him to believe that his feelings matter, and that limits are not placed on him at random. At least, this is what I'm hoping to acheive. That by being someone who helps DD resolve problems, and who validates her feelings, that she will be free to come to me with issues, questions, requests, desires and will also be able to truly "hear" me if I offer reasons why maybe it's not a good idea, because she won't be in "defense" mode, or mistrusting of my motives.

[sparklemom]

To answer the original question, it is absolutely possible to parent without punishing. We live our life that way---our dds are 4 1/2 yrs and 3 yrs. We do NOT nor have we ever punished them.

I agree that the sneaking is the bigger issue with the story about your dh sneaking candy as a child---not the candy.
As far as the candy part, we don't make any issue of food in our home (food being anything you eat including candy). We keep healthy food in our home and they eat what they want when they want. And if they ask for something while we're out, including candy, they get it. Because of that it's just no big deal to them. They can take or leave candy and desert, and they love healthy food. It's just not an issue.

What I value most about having a non-punitive home is the amazing trust within our family. This is something I never felt with my parents as a child.

Rewards and punishments are the lowest form of education.

[JeanetteL]

I agree with the others, what a great thread!!

I struggle with this often. I WANT badly to parent non-punitively - and in our house we don't use time-outs, or hitting, etc.

I'm very interested in what you said, Dar, about consequences being a nice way to say punishments. That does make sense. I try to read each and every one of your posts - because you always have such incredible wisdom to share. Do ya wanna write a book? :)

Where I'm failing though, is in punishing with words. I'm struggling with how to express my feelings about something, especially if they are negative feelings, without shaming or punishing. I know there has to be a way, but I'm just not sure how to do it.

I'll be following this thread with great interest. Thanks Captain Optimism for starting it!

Jeanette

[Dar]

It has helped me to think of and practice the lines I will use when I'm angry at my kid. I'm always better at it when I have half an hour to refine it. I try to talk about my feelings, if it's about me "I'm feeling really frustrated now because food was left in your room again and now there are ants all over the dresser." I try to say things like "I'm frustrated because..", or "I wish..." or "I would really appreciate it if you..." I try not to focus on "you did this thing", but on how I'm affected and what I would like to happen in the future.

It seems like since Rain knows there isn't a punishment waiting, she's more apt to try to problem-solve, or in some way work with me.

Sometimes I really need to get some space before I talk to her, or I will explode. She, otoh, likes to settle things right away, so we have struggled on and off over my trying to get space and calm down and her following me around saying, "No, I want to talk about it *now*." Sometimes giving her an actual time to talk helps, like 1:30 - I usually give it 20 minutes or so.

And occasionally I just explode and yell mean things, but I'm working on it, always.

I don't like the idea of "training" children to do the things that make you happy and not do the things that annoy you. I mean, to some degree that's part of living harmoniously with another person, but generally it's a give and take, and it's not a conscious manipulation. I want Rain consciously chosing her behaviors, not being "trained". I rarely tell her what to do at all; instead, I tell her my concerns about things she's doing or thinking of doing, and I try to help her find a way to do what she's wanting to do in a way that seems reasonable to me.

She rarely sneaks; the only thing I can think of that she's been sneaky about is brushing her teeth. Perhaps not coincidentally, when she was really little I was really anal about her doing this, and I think the first time I ever got angry at her was when she was 15 months or so and refusing to have her teeth brushed. I've come a long way, although I still get more upset of this issue than probably any other.... and I think the effects are still there, and so we walk a fine line over tooth-brushing.

I think she still has Halloween candy somewhere. It's not an issue, and for eveyrone we know who has never restricted sweets, it's been a non-issue.

And thanks, Jeanette... maybe someday I'll wrote a book! I started a novel for National Novel Writing Month in Novemeber, but I didn't finish it...

Dar

[Mommiska]

I, too, really want to parent non-punitively. But I struggle with that, having a 4 year old and a 2.5 year old (and a 3.5 month old, but he's easy, at the moment!).

Those of you who do parent non-punitively - how do you deal with it when your children completely ignore you? We try to engage them in creative ways, make things fun for them, try to help them to want to do what needs to be done.

Often, these kinds of techniques work. But sometimes they don't. So - what would you do if your 4 year old and 2.5 year old were crawling all over the car, having a ball, and refusing to get into their carseats to go home? And you needed to be home in 10 minutes, as company was arriving?

This situation happened to me just the other day - I resorted to picking them up and putting them in their car seats. Which wasn't too bad, as they both just thought that was a laugh as well, but I was sooooo frustrated at the time.

I'm also curious about how it works when you don't restrict sweets. I keep no candy in the house, but dh is a chocoholic, so we always have chocolate floating around. Mostly, the girls don't see it, so it isn't an issue. But there have been a couple of times when they have found chocolate and just eaten it all - for example, a few months ago, they found a 100 g bar of dark (70% cocoa solids) chocolate and ate almost the whole thing between them before breakfast one morning (I was in the shower and thought they were with dh. He thought they were with me, so he was working in the study. :rolleyes: ).

So - it scares me to give them free-reign with stuff like that! They were both in pretty rotten moods the rest of the day - I'm sure the chocolate gave them headaches, etc, in addition to making them not want to eat anything else until mid-afternoon, which didn't help their moods.

Anyway - a couple of different issues here, I realise. I'd love to hear any and all ideas. :D Sorry this is so long!

[NoraJadesMama]

FWIW, to my mind, it is possible to use consequences without them being punitive. Here are three examples.

When my two-and-a-half-year-old boy was learning to "aim" at the toilet I found myself talking to him about the need to "aim" and then cleaning up the mess frequently. Then we got some dilute Dr. Bronner's in a spray bottle (he loves spray bottles) and put it with a sponge by the toilet. When he "misses" we are right there talking to him about cleaning up and we stay with him while he cleans it up. He loves it so much I almost worried that he would spray more!--but instead within a day or two he had really made the connection that "aiming" makes sense. This was not a punishment--it was enjoyable by everyone. It helped him take responsibility for the consequences of his choices and helped me not care if he missed since I didn't have to clean it up five times a day. Even though Kids Are Worth It doesn't have much on toddlers, this approach came out of my reading that book.

As for the example of carseat avoidance, we have only rarely encountered this, but when we have it has been frustrating for everyone. Now when carseat avoidance we have a two-tier plan: (1) talk to them about why they are avoiding, and see if a compromise can be worked out (often it's because they would prefer to stay "out" than go home, and we can set a new time for departure that everyone can live with, and if it comes to it, we move to (2) we say that they have one minute to get strapped in (which is ample) and if they don't, we will do it gently for them. We are consistent and carseats are no longer a battle. Worst case scenario we have to put them in and do the strap, but it's not done in anger or to teach a lesson, just to move everyone forward and avoid a stalemate in which everyone gets angry.

As for the legos, I agree that there's a way of threatening toy removal that is punitive, the objective being to motivate with fear. But I recently removed the legos and it was not a punishment in my book. We have a policy for the study that they can have toys in here that they are willing to put away--and that the many-little-pieces-toys must stay in the study (so that they don't get evenly distributed throughout the house). They adore their blocks and will put them away pretty regularly, not always right away, and often with help--fine. Legos...Legos seem more like a confetti toy to them; they love to get them out, throw them in the air or shoop them across the wood floor, and then walk away. So I talk to them about whether they really like to play with legos enough to put them away, or should I put them in the toy closet for a while. After a few days of me being the one to put them away, I suggested they may not be ready to really enjoy legos enough to want to put them away when they're done. My almost-three-year-old said, "No mama, just put them in the toy closet." To me this was a problem-solving session and we both felt good about the outcome. I am certainly not trying to "teach" or "train" them to put toys away by giving them a sad/guilty experience of losing toys--indeed the discussions have always been no judgement, matter of fact, "what's the best thing to do about this problem" sort of discussions. This overall approach to study toys seems to keep me from feeling resentful about cleaning up toys they don't seem to value, and gives them a way to have out all the toys that they do value (and have my help cleaning them up when it's a good time for them).

Each parent sorts through the meaning behind their options/choices differently. This is just how we've worked it out and it feels right to us for now.

[Dar]

I'm not sure I consider those things to be "consequences", at least in the way the term seems to usually be used regarding discipline. It sounds like you used good, creative problem-solving skills with the toilet thing, and you encouraged him to take responsibility in this area and he was agreeable - or thrilled, even - to do so. That's a good thing. FWIW, anything involving spraying and wiping has been something Rain considers fun for the last 8 years! Learning that they are competent in real ways is really important for kids, IMO. And your goal (or at least a large part of your goal) was to solve the problem, not to "teach him a lesson" or make him experience something unpleasant as a result of doing something he didn't want to do. If he had been unhappy about having to clean up, I assume things wopuld have gone differently.

I don't know about the lego, since the "policy" about them didn't seem negotiable; it seemed like they were trapped by your rules into doing something they didn't want to do. saying yes, put them away seemed to mean "I'd rather have no legos than have to put them away", not "I don't want to have legos to play with anymore". I don't know if you tried things like "Let's spread a big blanket that covers the floor of the study before we play legos", or getting one of those bulldozer-type lego cleanup toys that make it actually fun, or moving legos play into a smaller area that makes cleanup easier (Rain used to play inside a shower stall sometimes, she thought it was charming and cleanup was a snap).

Dar

[Piglet68]

Originally posted by JeanetteL
I try to read each and every one of your posts - because you always have such incredible wisdom to share. Do ya wanna write a book? :)

No kidding! I'll be jostling Jeanette for a place in line to buy that book, Dar!

Seriously though, I really do love your posts. You are SUCH a big help to us mamas of younger kids as we tackle all these issues.

:love

[JeanetteL]

Out of my way Piglet - I'm first in line for that book. I'll pay in advance Dar, if you'd like :)

[captain optimism]

Originally posted by Piglet68

Avoiding punishment was foremost in my mind, but I didn't do that by submitting, I did it by becoming subversive. I was always *desperate* to be independent, from the time I can remember, I hated rules and restrictions and to this day I still do. The distinction being that when a rule makes sense to me I have no problem following it. The phrase I hated most as a child was "Because I am your parent and I said so". I was spanked, not severely, but looking back that is not what really bothered me, it was the in-your-face inequality in power that I struggled against from day one.


This is what I saw happening with my niece for the last 8 or 9 years. With me it was a little different.

I mean, my mom was a hitter, not a spanker--it wasn't like, "oh, you did something wrong, and your punishment is a spanking" it was more, "something you said or did has set me off and I am going to get wound up until I am totally screaming and hit you." Kind of a scary adult tantrum. Obviously I have my dh's strong support not to parent like my mom!

(My mom also did use punishment to discipline me, sometimes appropriately. She also did some of the other kind of discipline, the more reasonable kind. It wasn't all abusive craziness, that's just the part I really don't want to emulate!)

What I'm thinking right now is that punishment, even punitive use of time-outs, shouldn't be part of our repetoire. Not that punishment is never effective. I just think it's so rarely useful in the way it's supposed to be.

So, my dear mamas, what would you do with Carolyn's chocolate example? Here's what she said:


I keep no candy in the house, but dh is a chocoholic, so we always have chocolate floating around. Mostly, the girls don't see it, so it isn't an issue. But there have been a couple of times when they have found chocolate and just eaten it all - for example, a few months ago, they found a 100 g bar of dark (70% cocoa solids) chocolate and ate almost the whole thing between them before breakfast one morning...They were both in pretty rotten moods the rest of the day - I'm sure the chocolate gave them headaches, etc, in addition to making them not want to eat anything else until mid-afternoon, which didn't help their moods.

Would you, if your child ate way too much candy, have something good to say to her to help her not want to try that again? Something to help her connect that behavior with the unfortunate consequence?

[JeanetteL]

Would you, if your child ate way too much candy, have something good to say to her to help her not want to try that again? Something to help her connect that behavior with the unfortunate consequence?

Hmmm...

Well, I'm thinking that the ill effects of the chocolate overload could be thought of as a true natural consequence in that it was a direct result of the action, and not externally applied as a way to "teach" the children that sneaking chocolate is wrong.

In this instance, I'd think that simply discussing the situation with the child, and helping them to connect the physical side effects with the chocolate consumption would be the extent of my response. It might be that they just don't connect the two things by themselves in a cause/effect manner and I could (with the benefit of many chocolate overloads in my past) explain that too much junk food can have real physical consequences. I think I'd probably start by observing that they seem to feel crappy, and are acting unhappy - and ask them if they knew why that might be so. I hope that I'd be able to guide them to the correct answer, without heaping on guilt or shaming them for swiping the chocolate stash.

Other than that, I don't believe I'd do anything. And - if they found chocolate again and experienced the same thing, I'd just repeat my earlier discussion. After all - it has often taken me more than one mistake before I made a change to my behaviour (how many college hangovers did I endure before becoming mature enough to realize that the drinking itself was silly?). AND - I know that there are times in life when even grownups (myself included) say "To heck with the after-affects, I just want the immediate gratification". I think it would be unreasonable to expect that my child could be more mature and reasonable about it than I could.

Can't wait to hear from others!

J.

[Dar]

I think, when I saw my child eating all that chocolate, I might say something like, "Sometimes when people eat a huge bar of chocolate all at once, their tummies feel kind of sick afterwards." Personal stories have always worked really well for me as a way of sharing information, so if you remember a time when you ate too much candy and urped, share it in a non-judgemental way. Rain has always loved stories about when I was a kid, about mistakes and hard time I had, and how I felt. I am careful not to imply that she will feel the same way, or have the same reactions - some people can eat a huge candy bar and feel fine afterwards - but there is a suggestion that she might, and it's normal and natural if she does. I even admit to embroidering the truth on a few stories, when I needed a very gentle, low-key way to discuss something she was sensitive about.

I think it's natural to overdo when something is new. When we first got our laptop we were both on it all the time, Rain playing games and me surfing at the speed of light, while cozied up on the couch. It was wonderful! But after a day or two I had a headache from staring at the screen all day, and after a week or two of staying up until all hours with The Sims Rain decided to start going to bed earlier. And we'd had desktops since she was 2, so it wasn't like computers were new to us.

Chocolate has always been around, so it's not such a big thing, although there are days when one of us Really Wants Chocolate in a big way (for me, a day or 2 before my period starts), so we may eat Ben & Jerry's for dinner with a side of Ghiradelli.

I have talked with about t effects of sugar on a body, especally refined sugars, and about the importance of protein. She was really succeptible to low blood sugar issues when she was smaller; she's better today. So a huge candy bar wouldn't make her tummy hurt, but it would make her really crabby a half hour or an hour later. We talked about this, and I would encourage some protein with sugary stuff, a glass of milk or piece of cheese (cheese and cake is a Yorkshire thinbg, and it's actually good!). It was about helping her have what she wanted without making herself sick, anmd since she wanted that, too, she was generally pretty agreeable.

If, OTOH, I waited until after her blood sugar had sipped and then tried to get protein into her, it didn't work so well, so being proactive was really important.

Dar

[captain optimism]

Thank you all for your excellent responses so far! I shared them with my dh and he had some great things to say. First it gave him a lot of insight into his own childhood behavior, which was interesting. He said that his mom did try to discuss things with him, with an eye to coming to some more rational behavior. He would feel very uncomfortable!

Some of this is comparing apples and oranges--my dh is remembering his behavior as a preteen and teenager and we are mainly, though not exclusively, talking about toddlers. (Dar, I don't know how old your daughter is.)

What I see here is that it's really tough to guide a child's behavior with zero punitive speech, anyway. That's not the same as saying everyone has to punish, just that no matter how hard you try, your speech may feel bad to your child. I guess it's something I'm going to have to both work on and come to terms with. I have plenty of time! One good thing is that my dh is super careful about our language with ds and I think that will help me a lot.

[Mommiska]

Your replies are pretty much what we did about the chocolate - we just talked about the possibility of feeling yucky after eating so much chocolate, and I asked them to talk to me before taking chocolate like that again.

Of course, when they find chocolate these days, they will still take without asking, but then I guess that is normal for a 4 year old and a 2 year old. :D What I don't like is that they run and hide with the chocolate, even though I've never punished them when I find them with chocolate that has been taken.

I even try to stay calm - just remind them that eating lots of chocolate isn't good for us and we need to talk about when and how much chocolate to eat. But then - I don't let them eat until they stop when I give them chocolate, so I guess that isn't much fun for them.

Dar - did you ever let your daughter, at a very young age, just eat as much chocolate/candy/whatever as she wanted - let her decide when to stop? I'm so afraid to do that, but I really want kids who know when to stop - and I'm afraid my restricting them isn't helping towards that goal. :confused: I'm confused about this one.

The car seats thing - they were just having fun playing in the front of the car and didn't want to stop. Usually getting into the car seats isn't a huge issue, but stopping their play time (especially when they are being 'silly' together) to do something else is a big issue around here.

Understandably, I guess - who wants to stop playing and having fun to get in a car seat/have a bath/brush teeth/eat dinner/whatever? I can see their point of view, really I can! But sometimes we need them to do what needs to be done, you know? I try to give them lots of warning, we agree we'll have a set amount of 'silly' time and then do 'x', etc. and a lot of time all of those things work - I just wonder what you can do when they don't?

I'd also love input on what to do when they say hurtful things (I obviously have lots of questions about this!)? DD1 was calling me silly/stupid the other day - just trying it out, I think. I told her that it hurt my feelings when she talked to me like that. She just kept right on.

So, when 5 minutes later she asked me to read her a story, I told her that I still felt sad about being called 'stupid', so I didn't feel like reading a story right then.

So, she apologised and maybe 10 minutes after that, we read the story.

So - was this punishment? Or teaching her that her words affect other people? Any other ways to handle this?

[JeanetteL]

I was just thinking more about this thread while I was cleaning up earlier - and I came up with a question for you Dar....hope you don't mind.

You seem, from all your posts here on this forum, to be strongly on one end of the continuum as far as parenting goes - the gentlest of the gentle discipliners :). I am just wondering if there are any words/actions/circumstances that you consider truly off limits or totally unacceptable in your house (either now, or when Rain was younger – say, for instance, hurting a person or animal). If there are, I was just wondering how you handled (or would handle) those cases?

Thanks in advance for letting me pick your brain
Jeanette

[JeanetteL]

Carolyn

So, when 5 minutes later she asked me to read her a story, I told her that I still felt sad about being called 'stupid', so I didn't feel like reading a story right then.

To me, this does not seem like punishment at all - or at least not like punitive parenting - although others may feel differently. From my viewpoint, what you did was give your daughter an honest response about how her words affected your feelings, and thus your desire to interact with her at that moment. You didn't make her apologize immediatly, or get angry at her and tell her that she was wrong or bad to have said such a thing....you simply gave her a very good experience about how words really do have an affect on people....

I think that you did a great job!
J.

[journeymom]

This is a really great thread but I only got about half way through it, and I wanted to say before I forget:

Wow wow wow, Piglet, your 12/26 post about your childhood very succinctly described my childhood! You put into words accurately the same thoughts and feelings I had about the way my parents parented me. They spanked me, and it wasn't the spanking that bothered me per se, but the attitude that went with it.

I think if parents can lose the attitude that "it's us against them!" and "We've got to get a handle on the little blighters before they get away with anything. (Because they're born wanting to get away with naughty behavior.)" then there's room for gentle discipline.

[Dar]

Rain will be 11 on the tenth.

I have tried restricting sugar, at various times. When she was having explosive low-blood-sugar outbursts at 6 I tried, and it became a huge hairy issue after a week and I stopped, and she ate a handful of chocolate chips and then said something like, "And now I want to eat broccoli, so please don't try to stop me because I want it!" Now she wants to give up sugar like her friends who are on the Atkins diet.

There are actually lots of things that are totally unacceptable to me. Hurting our animals would be, but it hasn't come up since Rain was old enough to understand what she was doing - I would be seriously worried about a 10 yr old who was intentionally hurting an animal. When she was little I did things like create places that the cats could get to but she couldn't, and remind her to be gentle, and not leave her unsupervised with them.

I did know a woman who wanted to raise her children in the "free", TCS-way, but her interpretation of that was that she should basically stand by while they did whatever, including hurting animals intentionally at 7 and 10, and destroying her home. I think a lot of it was due to her spending hours online and not much time with them, except whining at them every few hours to stop what they were doing, or stop bugging her. Kids do need parents, as involved participants in their lifes. I may not punish, but I'm there, commenting and advising and negotiating and explaining.

I think it's important that all children understand what behavior is considered socially acceptable, so they have the knowledge to decide whether or not to behave in this way. I also it's good to help them see the implications of their choices - if you talk about your birthday party in front of people who aren't invited, it may hurt their feelings. I think that's unkind. I value kindness. I can't think of a time Rain's been intentionally unkind like this, but there have been plenty of times when she has inadvertently been unkind because they didn't have the wisdom to see all the repercussions of her choices.

I also try to be honest about my feelings, and what I want to do. There are a lot of times when she asks me to read to her and I say I'm too tired, it's too late. And sometimes that's okay, and sometimes we negotiate - will I read a chapter if she gets the book and comes to my bed? Can we play frog juice instead? Will be have time to read in the morning? Generally we find a solution that works for both of us. If not, it's usually due to some larger issue, like the year Rain went to school everything got messed up, and doing away with the school piece cleared up nearly all of the other problems.

[chellemarie]

Originally posted by pamelamama
:eyes very interesting thread :eyes

captain optimism, you have great posts. I'm gonna start following you around mdc. :wink

I do this already. I'm captain's cyber-stalker. We could be like a cyber-stalking team.

Do we have a creepy smilie?

Okay. Now I have to read the whole thread.

[e&r]

I mostly lurk, but found this thread facinating. What good mamas you are!

This is actually my first time on the "Gentle Discipline" threads, my DS is just 14 months so it has not been immediately relevant to my life 'til now.

I am a Montessori teacher, trained through AMI, and we were taught that basically the guidelines that everyone should follow (adults and children) are:
Respect yourself
Respect others
Respect the environment (all of the environment - this includes your house, car, belongings, as well as the bigger "environment")

These three things have been my guide for many years. They work!

Also, no punishment *and* no rewards. Alfie Kohn speaks to these issues well, and has spoken at Montessori conferences as well as to mainstream educators and businesses. This includes traditional "time out."

Sometimes, though, a child needs some space. Then the child should be treated well, perhaps isolated from a situation, and given an opportunity to choose some activity (someone above said that they do the same with their child - choose a space and an activity). This really works.

When I first became a teacher, mainstream teachers that I knew thought that I was, perhaps, a bit arrogant by stating that I don't believe that yelling works. They thought that it would be just a matter of time before I went toward the yelling-punitive model.

Well, I didn't. Respect worked. I truly respected the children, and they respected me. I've seen it work with many others, too. I know adults who had parents who raised them this way and they are wonderful people with wonderful relationships with their parents.

Keep up the good work, mamas, and wish me luck with my own. I know that being a parent is much more work and is much more challenging than being a teacher. As a teacher I went home at the end of the (sometimes long) day, and as I said many times to parents, "well, the children in the class don't see me in my underwear.", by which I meant that they couldn't push my buttons as easily as if we lived together and they knew every nuance of my existence.

Ellen

[ekblad9]

Wow! I love this thread! I've been feeling a bit lost lately and I think this brought me back. I'd forgotten how I had been parenting and let stress get the better of me. I have nothing to add but wanted to say thanks.:love

[TingTing]

There are lots of great replies here already...

In my experience, yes, it is indeed possible to raise kids without punishment. In fact, as someone who was raised in a house with quite a lot of yelling, time-outs and otherwise punitive discipline (albeit not corporal), working with kids (in Early Childhood Ed.) who'd been raised without punishment/rewards was precisely what opened me up to this parenting approach, so impressed was I with kids themselves. My first real experience with this approach was as a teenager when I was babysitting regularly for a single father. He was totally commited to non-violent parenting. He never, ever raised his voice at his kids, never punished, never rewarded. Coming from my house, it was a revalation! lol I was impressed with his self-control, and they were sweet kids, but I remember privately thinking, based on my own preconceptions about child-rearing, that they were probably going to be utterly wild adolescents as a result. Well, shock of shocks, I reconnected with the kids through a mutual friend after years of not seeing them (they'd moved) and they must have been the nicest, coolest, most thoughtful teenagers I've met. And no, they're not giving their father a harder time than any other decent kids their age.

Based on my own experiences, I think problems with non-punitive parenting often arise when a child's unnacceptable behavior is simply ignored. A friend of a close friend of mine who was ostensibly a proponent of non-punitive parenting used to laugh when her 3-4 year son threw toys, kicked plant pots and generally destroyed their home. "Oh dear," was about the most I ever heard her say by way of discouraging him. Naturally, he was out of control. Punishment is neither necessary nor ultimately effective, in my opinion, but we have a responsibility to convey to our children - in the kind of respectful manner we appreciate for ourselves - when something they do is innapropriate/hurtful and why. Like my old single-dad buddy, I would have taken such an opportunity to calmly, respectfully explain to my son or daughter why the behavior was upsetting to me, and swiftly shift the focus to co-operative resolution (ie. cleaning up).

[nancy926]

What a great thread -- thanks to all of you for all this wonderful info.

We are definitely going the GD route with DD (14 mos), but sometimes we hit sticky points. Like last night she wanted to give the dogs a treat (a dog biscuit). then another...and another....and another. DH wanted to make her stop, but I was fine with her continuing until she got bored with it. (So were the dogs!!) After about 6 feedings I asked if she wanted to go upstairs and read books, held out my hand for her to take, and off we went.

I guess if she'd wanted to feed them 40 treats, it would have been a different story...or we would have just gotten out the dry dog food and given her pieces of that instead.

Anyway...my "light bulb moment" came a couple of weeks ago -- dinnertime, DD in her highchair, throwing pasta on the floor. I freaked a bit, said something like "Well, you must be done," and took her out of the chair none too gently. SHe started crying and I said "and you're going to help clean it up!" Marched into the kitchen and got a cloth...and darned if she didn't get right down with me and start picking up pasta. It about broke my heart. I apologized to her for yelling...and really have not gotten upset about throwing food again. We clean it up afterwards and that's it. It's hard to break out of the mentality that she's doing "wrong" things "on purpose" -- that's so ingrained in a lot of us!

Thanks again for all these great stories and advice!

Nancy

[tofumama]

All I can say is WOW! I am so excited I can hardly type! I had no idea what GD was, (being a newbie and all) so I read. YAY!!! This is exactly what I am trying to do/want to do! I come from a VERY abusive background, and although I know I will never be abusive towards my kids, I can understand how some parents 'loose it'. Everything that has been said here is fantastic, wonderful advice. I do have a question...what is the deal with time-outs? Are they a bad idea??? My son is VERY intense, and he is one of those that sometimes gets overwhelmed and needs to leave a situation. Usually this means going into his room, either alone (if he chooses) or I go with him, hold him, we talk, calm down, etc. I have used time-outs maybe a handful of times for something really harsh like if he hits his sister, or bites (both have happened MAYBE 2 or 3 times) and I always tell him why he is having one, and I go to him after and remind him of other ways to deal w/ said situation, and we always end with a hug. (dh does the same parenting type stuff I do) So....I am confused ....

[NoraB]

I struggle very hard w/ this b/c I was raised in a very punative home. I learned to lie, sneak, hide, etc. I did not want the same thing for DD or any other children. I am still a work in progress though. Sometimes, when my emotional and/or physical reserves are low and DD is in high gear, I am so tempted to yell and/or hit. I am ashamed to say that I have hit my DD before. I was immediately sorry and my heart still hurts to think about it. I am getting better all the time though.

I have used time-outs maybe a handful of times for something really harsh like if he hits his sister, or bites (both have happened MAYBE 2 or 3 times) and I always tell him why he is having one, and I go to him after and remind him of other ways to deal w/ said situation, and we always end with a hug. (dh does the same parenting type stuff I do) So....I am confused .... I think time-outs can work as long as it's clear they are for the little one's benefit and not a "punishment." If the little one is acting out and hitting, I'd say, "You seem really agitated right now. I think you need a little time to yourself. Let's go in your room and read a book...or listen to some music...or draw...etc" whatever makes the child feel better. You could also discuss some of the reasons why the child might be acting out, letting the child form the conclusions as much as possible.

I really liked the book Raising Your Spirited Child. It gave me so much insight into not only my DD but myself. Now that I understand why I react in certain ways, I am much more capable of dealing w/ my DD.

I also like the book Positive Discipline (though I hated the book Positive Discipline: The First Three Years ). That was my introduction to the idea of "no punishment." At first, I couldn't wrap my mind around the idea that discipline w/ no punishment was possible. I was against spanking, shaming, yelling, etc, but no punishment seemed like an impossible concept to me. Once I accepted the idea, my whole outlook on discipline chaged.

I also think many ppl see GD and "no punishment" as the same thing as "no discipline." I have explained the difference to ppl until I was blue in the face, but most ppl I've met refuse to see. I do think it's important to raise children w/ respect and to be respectful. It's okay to not want your child to color on the walls, or rip up your books, or kick, or hit, etc. The key, I think, is to convey the message w/ the same level of respect the parent wishes the child to display. KWIM? I think it's also key to get the child involved in the problem solving process. If the issue is leaving toys out, perhaps the family can have a "meeting" to discuss the issue. The parents can say that they are bothered by toys being left out b/c it makes more work for them and it makes the house less pleasant to live in, etc then ask the children what can be done about it. Then, every tries to work towards a solution that works for everyone. I think kids are also more likely to stick w/ a plan that they have come up w/ themselves.

I think it's also okay to have certain rules. Society does have rules and many rules have a good reason. We have a seatbelt rule in our car. Seatbelts are never off unless we are parked (not just stopped) b/c that's how we stay safe while driving. We do not hit ppl or animals b/c hitting hurts and it's not okay to hurt ppl. It's not okay to lie b/c lying is wrong (though we don't have that issue yet b/c DD is only 18 months).

[nancy926]

Just a quick comment on NoraB's mention of lying... to me, "lying is wrong" is sort of vague....as a kid I used to lie all the time because I feared my parents' anger. To me, lying protected me so it wasn't wrong!

I brainstormed a bit about lying and came up with these reasons...they might not all work w/a toddler but you never know.

lying doesn't help solve problems
lying can cause the other person to stop trusting you and wanting to be with you
lying doesn't make the situation go away (ie., lying about breaking a lamp doesn't fix the lamp)
lying can be dangerous (ie., lying about trapping the cat in the attic so no one knows where he is)


It's a fascinating thing, lying....does it happen less with kids raised with GD? Because to me, if I knew I wasn't going to be yelled at or punished for something I would be much more likely to tell the truth.

[Dar]

I don't think we have rules so much as philosophy of life...

Rain has lied about having brushed her teeth, and it's probably not a coincidence that this is the one issue I've always tended to obsess and become rigid over, since she was tiny.

The only other lying I can think of it not really lying, but "storytelling", when she was 3 or 4 or 5. She would tell me about fantastic creatures that had come to her room to play with her, for example...

DAr

[tofumama]

Thanks NoraB, I am definitely going to check out those books!:thumb

[NoraB]

Just a quick comment on NoraB's mention of lying... to me, "lying is wrong" is sort of vague....as a kid I used to lie all the time because I feared my parents' anger. To me, lying protected me so it wasn't wrong! I totally see your point. As a kid, I learned to lie as well as I told the truth b/c it protected me from severe punishment.

I brainstormed a bit about lying and came up with these reasons...they might not all work w/a toddler but you never know. I see your point here too. I think it's better to give specific reasons than to be vague. Thanks for the suggestions.

It's a fascinating thing, lying....does it happen less with kids raised with GD? Because to me, if I knew I wasn't going to be yelled at or punished for something I would be much more likely to tell the truth. That's certainly my hope. I want my children to be able to come to me when they've made a mistake rather than hide it out of fear of punishment. But I don't know if any parent can totally avoid that happening w/ a child sometimes.

The only other lying I can think of it not really lying, but "storytelling", when she was 3 or 4 or 5. She would tell me about fantastic creatures that had come to her room to play with her, for example... I definitely see that as different from lying. I know parents who don't understand the difference though and punish their kids for it. Oddly enough, my mom did understand my storytelling and encouraged it. Thank goodness.

This talk about lying reminds me of something my mom used to do that drove me nuts. She would deliberately try to catch me in a lie. She'd know I did something (knock over a picture or something) and then ask me about it as if she didn't know. Out of fear of getting spanked, I'd lie. Then, of course, I'd get spanked for both infractions. I think it's totally sick for parents to put their kids in a position to feel they have to lie, then punish them for it. If my child lied to me in fear, I'd feel sad rather than angry at him/her. I'd want to know what I did to make my child afraid to tell me the truth. KWIM?

[tofumama]

I also would feel really sad if my kids lied to me...I grew up in a house that you almost HAD to lie to survive, and it was out fo fear, then having the fear of getting caught, ugh. I know kids lie, its part of them developing their understanding of right and wrong, but I hope my kids never lie b/c they feel they have to to avoid punishment. My son is only 2.5, and if he 'lies' about something, I think its more b/c he doesn't understand, and we don't make a big deal about it, we just correct him...ie- 'Did you brush your teeth? Yes. Hmm, let's go check. (knowing that he didn't) Your tooth brush is dry, how about we brush them now/together/etc'...that's just an example, I couldn't think of an actual situation off the top of my head...