Are there any decent guys out there?

[madmama]

I seem to really dislike men alot lately. I work in a hockey rink so i am around alot of guys. I've been here for 6 years and it never really bothered me before, but since ds came along i am really annoyed by the way most men act. What i mean by that is, women bashing (verbally), fighting, temper tamtrums, and the way they talk about women like they are pieces of meat. I am even annoyed by dh's friends. I over hear thier conversations and think to myself what PIGS they are. I am sooooo worried about my ds. I don't want him to grow up to be like that. Are all men secretly like that, and only show it when they are around other men? or are there decent guys out there who respect women and don't act like babys when they lose a game?
I posted this here because i wanted a mans opinion, please help!

[supakitty]

Wow, I want to preface this by saying that I am not trying to flame you. I have to say that reading your post, as a woman, makes me feel defensive. I guess I put the shoe on the other foot and imagine a man coming to a forum devoted to being a mommy and posting something akin to "All men are pigs." Perhaps it would be "All women are nags" or some other type of catch phrase that pushes our buttons.

If you truly have a desire to understand the behavioral differences that exist among men and women I would suggest coming at it from a less hostile angle. If you're wanting to vent about men and disguise it as a question, then I suppose that's what you've done already.

Do you honestly believe that there are no decent men in the world? And if men are all secretly like that and there are no decent men in the world... why ask men if it's true?

This reply is really in the spirit of debate and not an attempt at anything else. I hope I haven't offended.

:)

[Ame]

There ARE decent men.....

I used to think the same way, for the most part. I had one bad experience after another. I have always had twice as many male friends than female friends and heard all the down and dirty crap, it was disheartening to say the least.

I couldnt imagine being with a man who was more sensitive, less mechanically inclined, basically a whimp. So, I thought I had two options........a whimp or a.....<CUSS WORD> bad guy. Had NEVER met a man who was a little of both. I figured I would be single for the rest of my life after some pretty bad relationships.

THEN .......I met a friend and we grew closer, what I would consider best friends. After about a year our relationship suddenly and unexpectedly went from just friends to much more than friends. Then, as the fairy tale goes, we lived happily ever after. Funny thing, I used to complain to him about how difficult men are, and some of the same complaints you metioned and then I'd moan and say "why can't I find someone more like you?" I really never meant that I wanted him......guess my conscience mind was not aware of what was really transpiring.

Sounds corny, but believe me its true.....

[Ame]

Well I am not a man BUT I have a little different persepective being that most of friends are male and I hear all the "guy talk."

I think part of why some men act that way is that they are a product of their environment. How they were raised, their role models, etc.
Unless a man explores interpersonal relationships and who he is in the world, he is likely to follow the path he was sent down. Men who explore who they are and how they affect the people around them are more likely to change the path they travel on.

Okay enough...I'm not a man, but thats my opinion.

[papabliss]

I don't mean to pick on Yammer since he is a hockey player, but monster truck racing is the only activity I can think of that oozes more testosterone than hockey.

By the way, what is a "decent guy"? I know lots of guys I figure would be stereotyped as "decent" but that is just one guy's view of another. You mentioned what you don't like, but what DO you like or want to see in a guy.

Taking the antithesis of hockey, I would assume your decent guys are hanging out in science libraries, poetry readings, and monthly gatherings of the tropical fish society. This view would, of course, be based upon stereotypes of the folks in those groups.

But seriously, I do not think the actions of a bunch of men together represents those of any individual man, nor do the actions of a group of women fairly representative of the individual behavior of any single woman in the group.

To answer you question, I think men run the full spectrum when it comes to attitudes, behaviors, and maturity. Just like women. Your concerns about your ds are warranted, and also concerns I know await me in a few years when my son is old enough to absorb the actions of other males. Maybe I’ll get a fish tank now instead of later.

Happy searching!

[amy mama]

I know lots of awesome men. Men who truly love and respect women. Men who can have great conversations about current events, music, movies. Men who are fabulous cooks, and are really clean. Men who are wonderful with children. And, they're all gay!!!:D

[oneyellowbug]

I'm oneyellowbug's dh. She wanted me to read this with her so i begrudgingly did. Truthfully, I don't mind, I like to see what other people think about the way my wife is choosoing to raise our children. I like it most of the time. I agree with it most of the time. I just don't know much about a.p.
This was the first article I saw and after reading some responses I thought I might chime in. I love to wrestle, slap-box, watch martial arts etc. I get very excited when X-Games are on, etc. on the other hand I've played piano for twenty plus years, garden--love orchids, do chess and am willing to listen to and read her tree hugging babble:D Seriously, I put into practice the things which we both feel effective. I say all of this to point out that people are all different. In a hockey rink guys are more likely to trash talk. Yammer, through football, track, wrestling, in fact in all the sports I've done except rock-climbing I've heard trash talk in every locker-room. From women bashing to simple foul language. Mad mama, If you pay attention I think you'll find only some of the men are foul. The foul ones just happen to be the loudest and think they have the most to say. The decent ones are the ones giving courtesy laughs. Anyway, for whatever this was worth, there it is.
P.S. My wife dictated this;)

[jasnjakesmama]

And I have to say he's more than decent, he's wonderful :love
Sure there are times when he gets on my nerves and I dutifully bitch about him but those times are few and far between. And they are rarely serious issues. Rather minor annoyances.
It bothers me alot when women view men in generalities or as stereotypes. I have had some crappy men come into and out of my life but I have mostly had some great men that I love and cherish. Same as women. I have met some huge bitches that broke my heart and were horrible to me. Just as I have been fortunate enough to have some amazingly loving and supportive women to call my own.
It's pretty unfair to lump any group of people as either good or bad. People just aren't that way. I believe that for the most part people are good and they sometimes do bad things. And yes some people are just not nice.
I can give you specific examples of how wonderful some of the men in my life are but I'm not sure that you want that. I'm really hoping you are just annoyed and ranting. I'm hoping you really don't believe that there are no decent men out there....

[levar]

I just wanted to add [I am a girl, but hubby is a boy] that trash talk occurs everywhere, male or female, everywhere. Every go to a beauty salon and listen? YIKES!

Hubby works at a Rock Climb Gym where men and women instructors/clients are about 50/50. The trash talk amongst them worries ME too! But, only because my son is too young to understand that that is just what it is... trash talk. And trash talk can be fun and healthy! How else would I have ever found out that, lo and behold, my husband really isnt the only one in the whole wide world that *never* cleans up after himself... ;-)

~Sandie

Mommy to Taylor 4/15/00
Wife to Joe 3/20/99

[amy mama]

Is the word "bitches" really one that we want to use here to describe women? Just a gentle inquiry...

[jasnjakesmama]

Well, since I used the word- Yes. It is the one I chose. I do not use it to describe women in general but a few that I have had bad experiences with. Could I have used a better word? Possibly. But I said it, it's done with and I'm not going to change my post.
Sorry if you got offended.
I will try to be more sensitive in the future.

~Jennifer

[amy mama]

whoa mama-it was a gentle inquiry, not meant as an attack.

[jasnjakesmama]

I should clarify. I'm blunt. I'm not eloquent but I try hard to get my point accross.
I guess I did feel attacked despite the "gentle" disclaimer. It probably has something to do with the fact that there is so much drama going on here lately and so many people being attacked or having their posts ripped apart. (Not that that's what you did) just letting you know where I am coming from.
In your first post you basically implied that the only decent men are gay men. I can't tell you all the ways I disagree with that.
Yet I chose to let it be. It's your opinion. Mine is different.
You obviously don't think that we should ever call women bitches. I disagree.
We are both entitled to our points of view.
I don't want to rairoad this thread anymore so I will only post stuff that is pertinent to the question or the dialogue on decent men.
Peace,
Jennifer

[laurajean]

My husband is a sweet, gentle and loving man. He is also honest, kind and just. I love him very much.

(Of course we have issues and difficulties. No relationship is perfect. In the end, we work through them.)

My dh is one of the most decent men I know. And, I know he has a great deal of respect for women in general.

~Laura

[amy mama]

I was trying to be humorous in my origingal post here. Guess I failed. I don't actually believe that only gay men are decent men.

[member]

(((Amy Mama))) I thought it was pretty funny. :D

As for decent men inquiry... I am not a man. I agree with much of what Yammer wrote in the above. I have pretty high expectations of both men and women. Many of the men I have close relationships with have many of the same interests as me and we tend to talk about those subjects... but I'll be the first to admit that I am only close with politcally radical men with pro-feminist agendas... wish I had more advice for your specific situation, Madmama. Good luck.

[MomtoMia]

Amy Mama -- I thought your post was VERY funny and obviously meant to be so - I could have posted it myself, except I would have added ' . . . men with an excellent sense of fashion':D
Mary

[jasnjakesmama]

Self edited

[familyman]

men are pigs and dogs and every other foul thing you wish to call us. but ask your self are we worth it? is it better that we act competivly with each other or bring it to our relationships? i find that if i am pissed about nothing important sounding off to the men in my life lets it go. i dont bring it home where it can develop into a fight. that is not constructive. in addition sometimes we jest in the line of " i used to walk 20 miles to school" " oh yeah i walked 20 miles half way on my hands" etc. it is a tool that helps me love my wife even more because i heard even worse stories about someone else, and think "i got it really good" most of the trash talk between me and the men in my life is simply trash. meant to blow off steam. if you hear it out of context it can sound hurtfull. so dont make it real, let it stay in the trash. i bet most of these men are commited husbands and fathers. dont hate us for blowing off steam for it is just that.
on the other hand if what is being said is truly hurtfull and distructive to the reationship it is up to the other men present to bring that man back to honor. we do love women and our lives are enriched by your presence. you are the mothers of our children, the keepers of our most prize accomplishments. would it be better if we bragged about how great our wives and girlfriends are?, i do. my wife is the most beautiful, powerfull, intelegent, sexy, loving , feminine, and all around perfect woman for me. not to mention i couldnt choose a better partner to help raise our kids.
am i a pig? yes. are you a sow? i hope so.

[fionnsmom]

ditto

yes why cant we seem to give the guys the option of being diverse creatures, isnt that what a lot of woman "complian" about not being given?

i can be one heck of a "b" and just as strongly be compasionate.

i think men are the same, theres no reason to pick one group of men in one single situation and label that "the way men are!"

i know for a fact that i and many of my girl freinds have questionable ways of blowing off steam and men should be allowd to do the same

it takes all kinds to make life interesting, what would we all have to talk about if noone was rude?;)

[silving]

Just think, what would we do without all those awful, bad, dishonest, oversexed, lowlife, messy, smelly, lying and trash talking men??????????
This site would be, Where???
Anyway, there are one really wonderful, funny, nice, beautiful, caring, loving, sexy man and he is MINE! So hands off!!

Silving

[Pema's Father]

Everyone is innately good. Our perception of others depends alot upon how we are looking. See everyone as a Saint and you will be surrounded by Saints, regardless of their gender.

If however we focus on their shortcomings only, then we will be surrounded by jerks. Other people function as mirrors of our own mind in this way, They are perfect teachers, helping us to understand ourselves better, and hopefully, act as a stimulus for us to grow and evolve in a positive way.

[Poddi]

I don't personally know any man who's not decent. Sure I have heard some girls complain about how terrible their ex-boyfriends are but I've never seen them anyway. If you ask me I'd say most guys are decent. :D I have a guy friend who's very intimidating looking but I know he's a sensitive, funny and hardworking man. You can only see who they are once you get to know them.

[Bladestar5]

The men my mom works with are all a bunch of PIGS. They talk so nasty to and about women. I unfortunately dated one of them in my teen years. When I tell my hubby the things my mom tells me about what they say, he is appalled. My dh would never talk that way about women, so yes...there are SOME decent men out there. I will say, though, in all fairness...I think women can be just as bad about men.

[LoveBeads]

I really believe that the people who are in the happiest marriages are those that understand the differences between men and women. There are great differences. Men act like men, women act like women. My DH could pick apart all of the "womanly" things that I do (such as going to a party for a woman that I truly don't care about because I "don't want to hurt her feelings") just as I could pick apart his (describing a woman he sees in the parking lot as a MILF: Mother I'd Like to F***).

Instead, we both find our differences amusing, endearing, and yes, sometimes annoying. But we embrace them because we recognize that we are different species.

My DH has tremendous respect for me and women in general, not all women, but in general. I feel the same. I think part of the reason I respect men in general is because I respect my DH and I have strived to understand the differences between men and women.

There are lots of books on the matter, I suggest reading them. One in particular is "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". It's enlightening.

With respect,
LoveBeads

[Bladestar5]

If my husband ever called a woman a MILF in front of me, he would have a black eye!! There is nothing wrong with thinking that, but it is very disrespectful to voice that to your wife, unless you know that she thinks that is funny and acceptable. In our relationship, it is NOT...although, we both think Angelina Joli is incredibly sexy..and I am not even gay or bisexual!:p

[LoveBeads]

Well that's sorta my point...he knows that I do find it funny as un- PC as that may be. I joke about men's hineys to him as well. We've been together for almost 20 years and there are times that we talk to each other like "best friends" instead of "husband and wife".

I do agree with you that it is not acceptable if you don't see the humor in it, I'm just one of those that does.

LoveBeads

[Bladestar5]

Hmmm... I must have unsubscribed here, because I never saw your response:confused: :p
I am sure dh and I will get to the point where I trust him like that. I have major trust issues, but I also joke about guy's butts!! He and I both talk about how a woman is attractive, but he won't say anything about guys. Men are odd like that. He and I usually think different women are attractive, and he picks out guys for me that I don't usually find attractive. Well, at least we agree on some:LOL

[oatmeal]

Asking the people here who thought men come in all flavors (both good and bad):

So, with my history of questinable instinct about such matters, how can I tell if I am getting involved with a decent man or one who is going to give me the emotional smack down in the not-to-distant future. (the ones who have done so i nthe past were not the blatant trash talking pigs described above, but more stealthy than that)

We all know there are the predatory types out there. I not so long ago posted about one such man I felt I had ran into at Home Depot and decided not to call.

But I met someone who I think may well be a decent man. But I doubt my instincts because of past mistakes. Deep inside I harbor the distant fairy tale of one day meeting a decent man and having an actual family with minimal dysfunction. I wonder how much this dream could drive me to hook up once again with an a**hole.

Anyway men. How can I tell - any suggestions? I haven't felt that dread knot in my stomach as yet, but I don't know if that is a fair indicator or not.

Thanks.

[Bladestar5]

Good question! I am not sure. I guess it helps to date them in public for a while before being alone with them. See how they act around your friends. Ask what their pet-peeves are. What were their past relationships like, and why did they end? If a guy trash-talks his ex then I would steer clear. A man can be angry at someone and still be mature about how he talks about her.

[papachee]

oatmeal - tough question

IMHO one of the most dangerous things are the expectations we all have going into a relationship.
Both optimistic and pesimistic expectations are equally dangerous.

Optimistic expectations get you hurt, pesimistic expectations rule out most Mr. (or Mrs.) Rights.

You know there are nice and not-so-nice guys out there, If you find a guy he is probably one of those two flavours. But you won't know until you get to know him.

Getting to know people is fun. Relax and try and enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it, then it's work and most people don't like to get 'worked' on.

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules for judging people, but I almost always trust people who are good around children.

I hope this mixture of my junk philosopy, and experience helps and doesn't offend

[oatmeal]

No offense at all. I should probably just take it at face value that he says my baby is a huge plus.

I just wish I could go somewhere to get my choosing mechanism fixed. Too bad they don't have a diagnositc test for it!!!
:)

[zannaL]

oatmeal, a friend of mine from a tremendously dysfunctional background once said that she could tell that she'd made huge progress in her therapy because she was starting to attract nice guys instead of jerks. The better she got, the nicer the guys got.

Thing is, we all have a picture of what we expect in a partner, and those pictures get formed in the durnedest ways. It's well worth taking a careful look at what you find attractive in a man and what you expect out of a relationship to see if, unconsciously, you're being attracted to guys who aren't good for you. Sometimes, that takes professional help, because we're often not aware of how we rate potential partners. I know I needed therapy, not so much to pick a decent partner, but to find ways to make the partnership I'm already in work. So that might be an option for you to explore.

Of course, that's easy for me to say, because I have insurance to cover it. But if you can manage the financial end, it's well worth it to do the emotional work, if only so that you can trust your own instincts instead of being constantly wary.

Are there decent men out there? Of course. But it can be hard to sort them out from the hard-to-live-with kind, and like women, none of them are perfect. And like women, men carry their own histories with them, and tend to repeat them unless they do the emotional work to learn better.

[Teresa]

There are lots of great men out there. Just check out places besides a hockey rink to find them. Look instead at children's museums, LLL conventions, parks & playgrounds, churches, temples, etc. Yes, there will be a few of your more. . . ah, shall we say 'frat-boy' types in these places (Balls, babes & beers, buddy!) but then there are probably a few 'decent' guys to be found at the hocey rink, too--just operating under your radar.

Having said all that, there's also the company-of-men effect.
My husband is regarded by all as a tender, loving partner and father, but upon seeing him with some sailing buddies, more than one friend has remarked, "I've never seen him so 'animated'!

Now, I'm gonna go read what everyone else said and see how much I'm repeating!

[Alexander]

Frankly madmama, you are in the wrong job.

Have you considered work in somewhere like an opera house or for an orchastra?

a

[flatheadjane]

As a mom of a ds, I can relate to your concern over how to raise a decent guy...my answer is this...

put him in touch with decent men.

they are everywhere. you just need to look.

boys learn from their moms, dads, but they also need non-parent healthy male mentors in order to see good man behavior. just as little ladies need to see good women.

in todays society, the stereotypes are incredibly strong and sad.
children need many peoplein their lives to show them how to be friends, spouses, lovers, and concious individuals.

A man need not be entirely soft or hard. my lovely man is very compassionate, tender, patient, respectful and sincere. he works all day in a montessori preschool and is an incredible father.

he is also all MAN...playful, loud, intense, thrill-seeking, and at times, a real challange.

I absolutley adore him:love :love :love

so go find yourself some real men and invite them to be a part of your sons life.

[BowenTherapist]

I recently went to a science teacher convention (with my work), and was waiting outside the womens bathroom for one of my co=workers, and i overheard some women talking saying" am i showing enough thigh?" and stuff like that. when they came out they looked like sluts! and i noticed some more women here and there lookin and struttin like they wanted some. men and women BOTH can be pervs when they want to be.
but at the same time i know what your saying. i dont find myself to be a macho guy, or die trying to prove my worth. At the shooting range near me i see ALOT of guys trying to prove something. they're all about taking out the biggest 44 magnum and making noise. i myself am a target shooter only, and dont get many onlookers:)
anyway, im sorry to hear you have to hear that stuff from men, but it is a free country, and you have the freedom to say something
kev

[BowenTherapist]

sorry !! that last post is me bowens husband:) not my wife

[G-Dawg]

Believe it or not, men are not completely 2 dimensional. In a lot of ways they will exhibit as much testosterone as they are allowed. If you are around men behaving badly, take a quick testosterone reading. Levels are highest where there is competitive physical activity and no women present. Hence the term locker room talk. If the reading is high, don't judge too harshly. It is mostly chest pounding. If they are low, like at the opera, then be concerned that a man doesn't have balance. Chest pounding at the opera means he is out of his element and wishes he was in he locker room where he was more comfortable.
There are limits, however. If I ever pointed out a MILF to my wife, she would probably invite me to try my luck with her, because it was over with her. Not that our relationship is on the rocks, but that joking about infidelity is demeaning to her and that specific terminology should be offensive to all women.
Dividing women according to wether or not you would like to sleep with them is very adolescent. Every action grows out of the seed of thought.

G-Dawg's DH

[OpiumDream]

Just keep on looking and you will find your beautiful man. They are out there, you just got to sort thro the trash. take heart.

[Gitti]

It also depends a lot on how you present yourself.

Be classy, elegant, reserved, kind, nice and a inferior guy will get cold feet.

Be indecent, raunchy, loud, vulgar and you will pick up the type of guy that appreciates that sort of woman.

First thing to find out about a guy is whether he is gainfully employed and for how long. I do believe a person has to be able to keep a job to have self-respect. All the fancy clothes will not do that for him unless he has a low character.

Good Luck!

P.S. I just happen to come by.

[Cotton38]

I have not read all the replys to this thread, but my answer is yes. This comes from the point of view of a single father who sometimes asks that same question "Are there any decent Ladies out there".

[SamuraiEarthMama]

with respect to "how do you know a guy's not a jerk?"...

my best advice is to STAY FRIENDS with a guy as long as you can. both of my longest-term relationships were with guys i knew at least a year beforehand, one through my job and the other through a hobby.

ALL the relationships that started with a sexual element in the early stages were just that... flings with no substance.

building a friendship develops the foundations of something stronger in the long term.

another litmus test i like is, observe carefully how he treats his mother. it will tell you a lot about how he will eventually treat you.

btw, i'm married to a very decent guy, and i do know there are a LOT of 'em out there! and i can tell you that the guys i know who play hockey are not guys i'd ever be interested in for anything serious... i know there are gals out there who like that type, it's just NOT me!

k

[davidspalding]

Originally posted by madmama
I seem to really dislike men alot lately. I work in a hockey rink so i am around alot of guys. I've been here for 6 years and it never really bothered me before, but since ds came along i am really annoyed by the way most men act. What i mean by that is, women bashing (verbally), fighting, temper tamtrums, and the way they talk about women like they are pieces of meat. I am even annoyed by dh's friends. I over hear thier conversations and think to myself what PIGS they are. I am sooooo worried about my ds. I don't want him to grow up to be like that. Are all men secretly like that, and only show it when they are around other men? or are there decent guys out there who respect women and don't act like babys when they lose a game?
I posted this here because i wanted a mans opinion, please help!

try leaving the hockey rink and visiting a bookstore or poetry reading. not all men are knuckle-dragging, hockey rink jerks.

[ajsdad]

Forgive me in advance for rambling. This is my first post. I’ve been reading the dad’s forum when I have a chance and stumbled on this thread tonight. I have to admit I haven’t read all the posts, some finally moved me to weigh in. Either a huge proportion of women have more bad experiences with men than good, or those with bad experiences are more likely to post. Either is sad.

Some of my best friends play hockey. The two hockey playing men I know are among the most devoted, faithful, scrupled, intelligent people I know. One is a PhD who plays guitar for his church music group. The other is a biology teacher for gifted children. Both are animals on the ice. Except for different professions, the two hockey-playing women I know can be described with the same adjectives. None of them are gay. (not that there’s anything wrong with that!) :D

I find it hard to believe they are exceptions when my life is filled with non-hockey players of equal character. One post likened the process of finding a good man to sifting through garbage. My experience of people has been that there are far more jewels in the world than garbage.

I agree with others. The rink is not the place to see men at their tender best. The assumption that what you see and hear rinkside is all there is to them, however, is IMHO terribly simplistic. Men are truly more complex than most would have you know. I agree with the post suggesting you be the person you want to attract, and most importantly, be a friend to who you choose to love.

BTW, my hockey playing women friends’ language at the rink would make a longshoreman blush.

Bye now, gotta go feed my tropical fish and wash my monster truck.

[toothmkr57]

Yeah there are good ones of our kind, you just have to look hard. A family member once told me you are who your friends are. It still rings true to this day!

[steff]

Amy mama

I laughed when you made the joke about them being all gay. Thought it was very funny.

steff