Why is Merchandise the only consideration concerning Auto Safety?

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I’ve been wondering about the issues concerning Auto Safety, especially why the discussions always seem to revolve around what we can BUY to make automobile travel safer for our kids. I’m frequently involved in discussions with parents about which type of car is best, which brand car seat is safest, or what other gadgets (yes, gadgets…I saw one last week) can be used to increase auto safety.

So, here’s my gripe…Why aren’t we talking about limiting the time in the car? :scratch Not only does it have many, many, many other benefits but not driving the car in the first place is the only way to ensure that your kids not be injured in an auto accident.

I know that lengthy or frequent car rides are a necessity for some and to those, I TOTALLY understand why you would focus on all aspects of car safety, including the safest/best cars and car seats. I just wanted to say that because my intention is not to put anyone on the defensive. I am partially on the defensive, here so I wouldn’t want to add anyone else to the list.

I guess I’m motivated to write this because sometimes I feel I am perceived as being a careless mother because car seat/auto safety is not a huge issue for me. But it is a big issue for me but I focus on it in a different way; by reducing time in the car.

I have, proudly, gotten time spent in the down to less than an hour/week in the car! But I wouldn’t want anyone to feel like I’m a holier than thou type. I’m not…I’ve reduced time in the car to makeup for some big auto safety taboos! :eek
I’ll confess if the mood is right.

I have a few more thoughts on this but wonder if anyone would like to join me to discuss before I bring them up.
:D

[momto l&a]

Well we choose to raise our children out in the country so they can have fresh air and lots of room to run and explore ect.

Because of that we live 13 miles from town, 83 miles from where we do all our shopping.


I beleive we can get hurt doing anything, but am I going to restrict my kids from doing xyz because they 'might' get hurt? NO
I will just teach them to be carefull and use good judgement. And using good judgemant means driving a car you feel safe in, not driving late at night when there a bigger % of drunks ect.

So will I cut down the time we spend in a car? NO

I truely think carseats are over rated and I also think they need to be more padded.
doning flame proof suit

[grisandole]

Hmmmmmm.......well, I agree with you. But, in reality, kids are in cars a lot, so I think that even if you reduce car time, the fact is, they are still in one, so it's best to make sure the car/car seats are safe.

I actually wonder more about why cars aren't made safely to begin with, and why auto manufactures aren't held to a high safety standard. Okay, well, I know the answer is money. But it does really upset me that unsafe cars are even manufactured, when making them safe (or safer) isn't a huge deal. Sigh.

I am one who is trying to cut down on using the car; but I also live a car lifestlye.....I love to travel cross country, and I love to drive.

What are car alternatives? A bus without seat belts? Bike riding works, if the weather is good. Walking, too, if you aren't doing any heavy shopping.

Kristi

[Marsupialmom]

Yes and no. I live less than a mile from a library and several grocery stores. I don't know how many parents make 2-3 trips a day to grab milk, eggs, or other forgotten item. I can actually walk my 3 children walking to the pantry in less than 5 minutes (We are that close)

I ask myself it would be easier and quicker to walk.

I do think we can and should do things to reduce car useage but not just for safety. It is just an added enviormental benifit.

[Lucky Charm]

I live close, but not close enough to grocery stores, the bank, etc. i live in a no busing school district, but still, a mile and a half when its blowing snow (i live in Colorado) is too far. so i drive, probably too much for my own good.

However, even if i was in the car an hour or less a week, i would have the safest carseat available to my child.

Alot can happen in an hour. and carseats are not overrated. I work in an emergency room, and too often see the devastation and tragedy that happens when children arent strapped in. Ive seen too many dead children to count. Of course, carseats cant prevent every death or injury. But i wouldnt take my chances.

Still, less time in the car can only be a good thing!

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Just to be 100% clear, my intention is not to suggest that the safety of cars and carseats shouldn’t be a concern for parents.

My idea is just that that is not the end all solution to the terrible statistics involving children and automobiles. I didn’t want to direct this at any individual parent because I know that everyone has individual circumstances. My gripe was much more directed at auto safety campaigns and the current atmosphere surrounding carseat safety.

What I’m getting at is that I resent that a driver of a super save car with a center mounted super safe carseat is perceived to care more about their child’s safety than I am. I have felt this vibe many times. It usually comes through with words like, “Well, I really care about my kid’s safety” or “Safety comes first in our family”. I don’t know, am I crazy or does this not come off as if I don’t care about my kid’s safety if I don’t buy these things?

Sometimes I wonder if the reason they don’t push for less time in the car is because they really want us in the car. “They” (don’t ask…I’m new to conspiracy theories) want us driving and buying.

[Czen:)]

I think I see your point. I have many times been ofended by the
It usually comes through with words like, “Well, I really care about my kid’s safety” or “Safety comes first in our family”. comments. This usually because we have spent our parenting lives driving older, smaller vehicles. Can be very annoying. I've especially heard the talk among men. Almost like they are boasting to my DH and putting him down because we want to avoid the gas guzzlers and car loans.

(I must confess however that we just had to buy something bigger and newer due to the arrival of number 3. Multiple car seats just don't fit in every vehicle! It was quite a challange to finding one that worked be wasn't excessive in either size or price.)

[grahamsmom98]

Sometimes I wonder if the reason they don’t push for less time in the car is because they really want us in the car. “They” (don’t ask…I’m new to conspiracy theories) want us driving and buying

Well, duh! Sorry, I couldn't resist! OF COURSE "they" (being the car manufacturers and the other businesses out there that sell things) want us driving and buying. That's what commercialism and business are about! You don't make any money if people don't buy anything. As for the gadgets available, some DO add to the safety of driving and some just make the ride easier or more comfortable. I don't see any mass conspiracies in this. It's finding what many consumers want, and making it available to them. Don't like the gadgets, don't buy 'em.

What I’m getting at is that I resent that a driver of a super save car with a center mounted super safe carseat is perceived to care more about their child’s safety than I am. I have felt this vibe many times. It usually comes through with words like, “Well, I really care about my kid’s safety” or “Safety comes first in our family”. I don’t know, am I crazy or does this not come off as if I don’t care about my kid’s safety if I don’t buy these things?

I think you are getting a bit carried away here. We just bought a new car in order for ds to remain in that center spot for as long as possible because WE feel that this is the safest place for him when riding in a car. With this vehicle, he can do that for years and years!). We have but one child and can afford to do this.

Do we think that people with more kids and, perhaps, less money, don't care about their children as much if they don't do the same? Of course not! People must do what is right for THEIR families, and not worry about what someone else thinks.

Now, if you go around with your kids in the front seat or skip using seatbelts because you're just going for a short drive or hold your child unsecured while driving or being a passenger, then YES, you do NOT care about your children's safety. The same could be said for not putting sunscreen or hats on your kids when you walk them to the store on a hot August day or not teaching them to swim if you have a pool or live near water.

Safety IS an issue. And, sadly, one that is often ignored by too many parents.

Leslie

[SoHappy]

We chose our location based on our desire to stay out of cars as much as possible. We told our realtor we needed to be within 10 blocks of our downtown so we'd be within walking distance of shops, restaurants, the library and bookstores. Our preschool is 1 1/2 blocks away. Dh rides his bike to work. We sometimes walk into town 3 times a day for various things. But I still have the safest booster seat you can buy and use it in the safest manner possible with the utmost attention to detail. It only takes one second (or one idiot driver) to change or end a life. I see nothing wrong with minimizing the risks. It doesn't have to be "either/or".

<rant>My peeve is the people who buy all the safety stuff but drive like selfish fools. Where did these people learn to drive and do they have any idea how dangerous they are?? To them:
Use your mirrors, turn your head to look, stop behind the line, look both ways, hang up the phone, put your hands on the wheel, make eye contact with other drivers, stop for pedestrians, observe the laws, and acknowledge that you're driving a giant weapon. All the metal and plastic in the world can't save you (or the rest of us) from yourself!!!</rant>

Oooh, that was cleansing.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

As I reread my posts I can see why some of you think that I’m talking about an either/or type thing. I really didn’t want this to be about that.

When momto l&a said that she thought carseats were overrated, I think I know what she means. Carseats are overrated if people think that carseats alone are the solution to the problem of so many kids being injured in car accidents.

sweetbaby3, I wonder how many children you see at the hospital who were strapped in? What has got me me thinking about this was a tragedy in my hometown where a mother got into an accident while driving over a patch of ice. The mother and one child died and the other was seriously injured. ALL were strapped in properly and the car was considered on of the safest brands.

I know that some of you may have attended some infant and child safety public awareness programs or those carseat installation checks. Was reducing driving brought up?

My other ideas are making the roads safer in general. Thank you sohappy, I totally agree with your rant! And on the rant note, why does it always seem that the people driving aggressively around me are in big huge cars, thus quadrupling the danger of them crashing into me?

(OFF TOPIC: sohappy, do you mind telling us where you live? It sounds very nice. I'm in Heidelberg and we don't NEED to drive at all. I love that aspect of our town)

Also, I wonder if driving on safer roads would not be a possible solution. I know that when we lived in Santa Cruz, we drove the two lane coastal road to get everywhere. The speed on that road never goes over 30 miles/hour. It was when we were going start traveling over a dangerous commuter road that I really considered limiting that kind of driving.

Someone mentioned not driving at night. How about during high road rage and high speed times of day? What about limiting driving during bad weather? I remember being a kid and being snowed in! I was just in the US during a snow storm and everyone was out and driving thanks to big cars and a fast passed lifestyle.

And another person mentioned, installing seatbelts on busses to broaden the appeal to more parents.

And, yes, as so many of you mentioned the various environmental, cultural and physical advantages of just not driving as much should definitely be considered…always!

[tnrsmom]

Moving this to Parenting Issues. :hippie

[Clarity]

statisically (and physically) buses without seatbelts still have a lower injury/fatality rate than cars with carseats. A vehicle with that much mass absorbs a great deal of the impact. Plus being driven by a professionally licensed driver, and usually at lower speeds. So choosing a car over a public bus is a matter of personal perception more than actual safety.

articles that suggest limiting car seat time for newborns and preemies: due to oxygen sat. levels and apnea when in upright car seat or similar baby equipment. they suggest considering this issue in redesigning car restraints.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1526517.stm (lay article)
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0950/3_108/78536402/p1/article.jhtml
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0950/2_110/90622295/p1/article.jhtml (ped journal articles.)

I totally support driving less as a safety measure in addition to car seats. Plus dd hates the car, so it helps encourage it. :)

[Corvus]

IdentityCrisisMama, do you put your child in a carseat when you ARE in a car?

BTW, reducing "car time" is not an option for some people. I live in the country, in the woods. We are 15 miles from the nearest stores that we need to go to. Even if those stores were closer, it is not safe to walk on the roads (curvy roads, no sidewalks, etc). Also, I live in a cold climate; for half the year, it is far too cold to subject a baby (or any child or adult, for that matter) to a walk in sub-freezing weather.

And even if I were close enough to walk to the stores, how would you expect me to carry my child AND all the grocery bags? Even with a sling, I'd get pretty tired and worn down carrying all those bags. That's real safe. :rolleyes:

ETA: Even though you have "reduced car time," you should still focus on car-seat safety for the times that you ARE in a car. It's not appropriate to be lackadaisical about it just because you're not in the car often. Is it appropriate to be careless about co-sleeping safety just because one might co-sleep only once in a while? Of course not! It's still appropriate to follow safety guidelines! Anything can happen at any time; it doesn't matter how seldom you get in the car!

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally posted by IdentityCrisisMama


My other ideas are making the roads safer in general. Thank you sohappy, I totally agree with your rant! And on the rant note, why does it always seem that the people driving aggressively around me are in big huge cars, thus quadrupling the danger of them crashing into me?

Also, I wonder if driving on safer roads would not be a possible solution. I know that when we lived in Santa Cruz, we drove the two lane coastal road to get everywhere. The speed on that road never goes over 30 miles/hour. It was when we were going start traveling over a dangerous commuter road that I really considered limiting that kind of driving.

Someone mentioned not driving at night. How about during high road rage and high speed times of day? What about limiting driving during bad weather? I remember being a kid and being snowed in! I was just in the US during a snow storm and everyone was out and driving thanks to big cars and a fast passed lifestyle.

And another person mentioned, installing seatbelts on busses to broaden the appeal to more parents.

And, yes, as so many of you mentioned the various environmental, cultural and physical advantages of just not driving as much should definitely be considered…always!

[Corvus]

Originally posted by IdentityCrisisMama
Sometimes I wonder if the reason they don’t push for less time in the car is because they really want us in the car. “They” (don’t ask…I’m new to conspiracy theories) want us driving and buying. Auto-safety campaigns are in place to teach parents how to best protect children when they are in a car. The campaign is in response to the hypothetical question, "How can I keep my child safest when we are in a car?" The answer to that question is NOT "Well, just don't put your child in a car." That's not an answer to the question.

I go to the carseat specialist to check the installation of our carseat, and I ask, "Is this installed correctly, making this as safe as possible for my child?" If he says, "Actually, your child is only safe if you never put her in the car at all," that does not answer my question! I'm quite intelligent; I realize that she is safest from car danger if she is never in a car. What I'm asking is, "How can I make her safest when we ARE in a car?" And that is the question that is answered my the safety campaigns. It wouldn't make any sense for "them" to tell you to stop putting your child in a car.

You remind me of that old joke, in which a man says to his doctor, "It hurts when I do this," while bending his arm at the elbow. The doctor replies, "So stop doing it!"

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Cool, so I'm the doctor right? In the joke?:D

[SoHappy]

No fair! How come SHE gets to be the doctor? M-o-o-o-o-o-o-m-m-m-m-my, they never let me be the doctor.

[jeca]

I can understand what you are saying it doesd make alot of sense just doesn't seem evry practical. I guess maybe if you live in the city and can catch the bus or train or everything is in walking distnace. BUt as a few mamas have stated not all of us live like that. So focusing on the safety issue just makes more sense to me. It takes me 15 minutes just to drive to the nearest grocery store so I am certainly not about to walk there. laso it seems to me that if you are limiting teh time that your kids spend in the car doesn't that mean that they are stuck in or around the house all the time? Okay unless everything you do is in walking distance but city life is not for me so I don't think I'll ever have that option. Woudl love to find a nice suburb somewhere that I can walk around to I do love to walk.

[Corvus]

IdentityCrisisMama, do you put your child in a carseat when you ARE in a car?

[pageta]

I think I agree with the original post. We live in the country, and my husband gets upset at me if I go to the grocery store more than once a week. I used to live in the city and went to the grocery store at least three times a week. But, with a grocery list and menu, I have managed to cut it down to once a week. Part of that motivation is the trouble it takes to get ds in and out of the car. My husband's concern is the miles put on the car.

We have the least expensive car seat I could find (new, not used). Would a $250 car seat be safer? Perhaps. Perhaps not. We drive a small car, not a big SUV. When it snows, there are as many SUV's in the ditch as little cars like ours, largely due to the fact that people who drive SUVs think they're invincible.

Yes, I use a car seat, and yes, I try to drive safely. Avoiding an accident by avoiding unnecessary trips in the car and driving defensively probably saves more lives than $250 car seats in SUVs driven irresponsibly. Equipment isn't everything.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

On second thought, sohappy, you can be the doctor if I can be the midwife!

Corvus, Yea, I put my darling daughter in a carseat. :rolleyes:

[Piglet68]

To the issue of driving less to increase child car safety. Well yes, I think the less you use your car, the less chance of an accident. Also, from a health and environment perspective it's better to limit driving.

And, Corvus, it IS possible to sling a baby and buy groceries. One of the nice things about living close to the markets is that you don't have to buy a week's worth of groceries every time you go! :)

And yeah, I find it very convenient for the carseat manufacturers that they are constantly finding ways to improve carseats, virtually guaranteeing that you must buy a new seat for every kid you have, since by the time the eldest has outgrown his/her seat, it is not the "latest thing on the market".

With all that said, however, I believe in erring on the side of caution. I will buy the best seat I can, even though we try to use the car as little as possible. The consequences of an accident, no matter how much you reduce the chances of one, are still too grave for me to consider otherwise.

[cinnamonamon]

It's kinda like you're preaching to the choir, here, IdentityCrisisMama! I totally understand what you mean, though. My own dear mother & sister thought I was insane to bring up the idea of staying home more often. And I was talking not only of safety, but of the child's happiness (screaming baby hating carseat, etc.).

I have definitely stopped making so many unnecessary trips -- do we really need to eat out this often? If I stop at the grocery store now, I don't have to make a special trip tomorrow...

grahamsmom98 -- you commented that people who put their child in the front seat don't care about his/her safety. Did you mean vehicles with airbags? I have to say this is a situation where I've encountered raised eyebrows because my ds is in the front seat with me (no passenger side airbag, of course!!). I have a truck, so there is really no option. If I had a car (or ever got one) I would get one with an optional off switch for the passenger side air bag (assuming I even get that new of a vehicle!) so that baby could still ride up there safely. ITA that the safest place in a vehicle is in the center of it -- but if we are really prepared to follow that through, then shouldn't the front passenger seat be the last to use? If my dh and I actually get to go out to a movie (without ds) shouldn't I sit in the back center of his car while he drives? KWIM?

The way I look at it is that my ds was miserable if he couldn't see me. So I would rather have him in the passenger side seat (without airbag) so we can see each other and interact, than to have him screaming in the backseat and me a nervous wreck trying to calm him & drive. When he is happy I am a better driver, which is a BIG part of avoiding accidents, ya know? :)

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Hey, all

Thanks for your imput! I've been thinking about this issue and I can see that there is more that I can do besides ranting about it here.

I've written a letter:
(Because I think it makes sense for them to address this issue!)

Dear CPSafety,

Because you asked if there were anything I would like to see addressed on your web-site I will happily add my request. I’m concerned about the time the average American child spends in the car.

I wonder if you would be willing to include an article on the increasing amounts of time children are spending in automobiles. Surely, this is a major contribution to the rise in injuries and deaths among children in autos. From my perspective, carseats are becoming safer every year and are being consistently used by more and more people and yet the rate of childhood deaths keeps going up. Could it be time to add another strategy to your efforts?

I worry that when parents have completed all the carseat and automobile safety suggestions on your web-site they may feel they have done everything they can do to help keep their kids safe.

I think that an awareness campaign helping parents reduce the amount of time kids spend in the car would be a good contribution to your web-site. More importantly, I know that if parents limit the time their kids spend driving in the car (even by one trip a week), the number of children injured or killed will go down.

Please let me know what you think about this issue.

[DreamsInDigital]

I really think that's a good start. More mamas should get involved in this.
And I agree that spending less time in the car is a good idea to those who have the option.

[Clarity]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A47292-2003Jan26?language=printer

article on children and length of time in car. Nationwide, an hour a day, and longer probably for children not in school or in dense traffic areas...parents estimate 2-3 is typical. Apparantly, they never studied before how long children were in cars so they could calculate risk due to exposure... Brings up other issues of frequent car usage.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Awesome article, Clarity!! Thank you. I think I’ll e-mail it to CPSafety. Ya’ll gotta read it. It’s so much more eloquent and organized than I could ever be but really sums up what I was trying to say.

An interesting thing about the article is that it’s focused around the Washington, DC area. It was driving in that area in November that really got me thinking about the time kids are in the car. I couldn’t believe the amount of time Aya would have been in the car if I had done everything at the pace of my family and friends.

If you country mamas have a chance to read the article, you’ll see that my perspective wasn’t from a family driving down long country roads to the nearest store. My latest US driving experience was driving hours on long busy, commuter highways or families that do travel across town to get milk from Target instead of just going to the corner store.

[EnviroBecca]

Cinnamonamon wrote: ITA that the safest place in a vehicle is in the center of it -- but if we are really prepared to follow that through, then shouldn't the front passenger seat be the last to use? If my dh and I actually get to go out to a movie (without ds) shouldn't I sit in the back center of his car while he drives? Only if the center seat has a shoulder belt. For an adult, riding with just a lap belt (which is what my car has in the center) is riskier. It might be safer to ride at one side of the back seat than in the front, though. :confused: I know I have read that passengers who get killed were most likely to have been in the front seat, but that might be because that's where passengers are most likely to ride....

Thanks for the article, Clarity! I'm glad kids' "drive time" is being studied.

[Clarity]

long country drives are bound to be safer in most cases. But here in the DC area...parents have long commutes (1-2 hours), both parents usually work...kids often attend nonlocal schools, plus the many scheduled afterschool activities. Not just accidents...but physical issues (ergonomics of being in the seat) an developmental...not moving, limited activities. I mean, we criticize overuse of saucers/walkers/playpens/swings...so while car seats are important safety equipment, some of the same issues of overuse apply.

So there's a lot of things...a safe car, a safe car seat, good installation. And lifestyle...one parent at home, a part time babysitter like the mom in the story, fewer "enrichment" activities and organized sports, attending your neighborhood school, or living near your school of choice, living near your workplace (or likely workplace...for instance if you work in some professions, you know Tyson's Corner, Reston and Rockville are big employment centers...)

I have ranted before that the burden of child safety is mostly on the parent...the variability of each seat and each car make it so difficult for anyone but the most committed and educated parent. Even with LATCH. My brand new car does not have LATCH in the center rear position for example or in the third row. And some cars get a safer install using non-latch installation! When new cars are so $$$, I'd like to see a more integrated car seat safety technology. But I agree, I do see the perception that anyone who does not drive a new car with the latest safety equipment and the "safest" car seat (like a britax, that's also the most expensive) is sometimes treated as if they don't care about the safety of their child. When probably they bought somehting at the their local store assuming it would be safe if they followed the instruction booklet.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

So, Clarity, you¡¦re in the DC area! Man, the commute around there was brutal! :eek I fly into Dulles and my sister and cousin live in DC but I stay with my parents live in Baltimore. Driving those roads are stressful, to say the least. :splat

Thanks for saying that you understand my perception about parents seeming to care less about their kid¡¦s safety when they don¡¦t have the latest and greatest. I was beginning to feel like I was the only one (other Czenƒº, who understood me early on!).
:wave
Also, thanks to Piglet for bringing the ¡§convenient¡¨ (and profitable) new carseat technology, which makes parents feel like they need to upgrade for every new kid . :rolleyes: This is something that doesn¡¦t seem to happen as much in Germany, btw.

And Pageta, You get me too about what I mean when I say ¡§reduce¡¨ time in the car. I like that you can look at in terms that you can fit in your lifestyle. I know a lot of others mentioned that they too make and effort to reduce time in the car (I don¡¦t think anyone¡¦s kids are sitting at home itching to go out for ride in the car).

Collectively, if we could all (of most of us¡Xnot just MDC parents¡Xlike if there was a big focus, nationally) just cut out a few miles a day the roads would be safer for kids. Many people mentioned how they reduce time. I live downtown, which makes it easy to cut out lots of car time. Others mentioned combining trips to the store or walking to the local market. These are all things that mean ¡§reducing¡¨ time in the car! If you can¡¦t reduce anytime in the car, than perhaps, like me, you¡¦re already down to your bare minimum for your lifestyle¡Kcongrats...we¡¦re more similar than you think.
:D

[chellemarie]

My question is this: Why the hell is a (required by law) carseat $250? And if that's the safest, does that mean folks who can't afford the $250 shouldn't have a baby? That drives me insane. "The safest is XYZ. You can get it for a discount at ABC Store for $235! Bargain!"

Carseats expire in five years. But your kid has to be in one for six to eight.

Why oh why didn't I invent carseats!? I'd be a gazillionnaire!

Yes, I use a carseat. We bought the one we thought would work best for us. It didn't cost $250. But I really truly do love my kid. I swear I do.

Okay. So that was my rant. A lot of us moms here look suspiciously at formula companies and crib manufacturers and vaccine makers...but then we buy the gold-plated carseat and feel good that we got the best! Yes, I want my child to be safe and the safest place is probably in a doorway in our home. But we gotta go and I won't be robbed. If my $50, $80 or $100 seat isn't safe enough, someone's got some 'splainin to do ...why the hell is it on the shelf?

More on topic: I'd love to go days without being in the car. It's just not possible where I live. I think that's sad, too.

[chellemarie]

pageta...I'm in Nebraska, too. Hi. :)

[IdentityCrisisMama]

chellemarie, you're funny...not in a "you remind me of a joke way" just funny! I’ve always envied you mamas here at MDC who can just "tell it like it is" AND especially when you can spell something like splainin ...that's just so cool!

[sohj]

semi-:OT :

When I was young <cough, cough>, I had a safety harness in the car and, when I outgrew that, I had a booster seat. My booster seat was an eight inch thick, dense foam cushion covered in dark red vinyl with white piping. I would sit on it then fasten the lap belt over my lap and tighten the strap.

This was in the days when seat belts were something EXTRA you had to PAY for. My father was pretty involved in worker safety in his job so he took safety pretty seriously at home.

One fine day in 1971, my father's good sense let him down and he let my mother drive the car. They had been fighting for weeks and I suspect she might have had some wine at the friend's house we had been at (daylight hours, by the way). We were driving along one of the dozen hills in Minnesota (not a lot of 'em out there) and went off the road and ROLLED down the hill. Twice. Then we stopped, right side up. We had bounced on these rolls, so the front windscreen had buckled/broke dramatically.

I was fine. Belt held and I was wedged into this dense foam cushion. My mother was fine (unfortunately) as she was behind the steering wheel and had her belt on. My father's head had collided with the windshield as it was collapsing inwards. He had his belt on. We all walked away from the accident. Actually, at my father's urging, we were running, as he was concerned about the state of the fuel tank.

Moral of the story?

No matter what car seat you buy, the most important safety device is your brain.

[chellemarie]

sohj - Amen to that! Sorry to hear about your mother.

ICM - Thank you! I love it when people tell me I'm funny. :love

[srain]

PEEVE: When folks say "I HAVE to drive a lot because I live out in the country." Um, no, if you live somewhere far from where you can obtain your needs, without public transportation options, you have to drive a lot because you CHOSE to do so. It's like folks saying "I have to file bankrupcy because I have all this debt and I don't want to move to a smaller house."

[sohj]

srain: I second that. When I've lived waaaaaay out in the boondocks, we just drove into town about once every two weeks for supplies. (edited to say, after thinking about this, I think it was more like once a month. Time just went by for me at its own pace.) Maybe we drove somewhere for a barbecue at another farm. But even that wasn't more than once a week.

I've got a theory that there's a whole lot of people who have a romantic vision of how great it would be to live out in the real country, but then they are so terrified of actually being alone with themselves that they work really hard to turn that country into suburbia. And they are succeeding.

Living out in the boondocks is not easy. People staking a claim on the prairie in the 19th C. often went insane from the isolation. There is a reason that settlements of people....all the way back to the stone age.....tend to be groups. It is hard to survive without. This was done away with in the US in the 19th C. when the US gov't was in a big rush to populate the land west of the Mississippi with the white man. People had to live on their claims for a certain (large) percentage of the year. They couldn't live in a town and go out to farm it. The land was broken up into squarish rectangles. It is hard to have a town at the center of squarish rectangles....strips of land work much better for that.

And, now, we have people living in the real country who drive long distances every day. They don't really live "on the land", they sleep there and live elsewhere...like in their cars.

[SoHappy]

srain and sohj, thank you for posting what I didn't have the guts to say. I kept thinking it, but didn't say it. I'm with ya, sisters.

[Corvus]

double post

[Corvus]

Originally posted by srain
PEEVE: When folks say "I HAVE to drive a lot because I live out in the country." Um, no, if you live somewhere far from where you can obtain your needs, without public transportation options, you have to drive a lot because you CHOSE to do so. Oh, you mean I don't HAVE to drive 15 miles to get groceries for my family? Are you suggesting that I let my family starve? Or do you know something I don't know? I.E., do you know of a grocery store that is closer to me?

Yes, we CHOSE to live in the country, because we LIKE the quality of life in the country. And the town we CHOSE is the town that my husband grew up in, a town he loves. And it has the best school-system in our state. There are lots of other reasons we CHOSE this town, but I won't get into it here. Regardless, I'm not going to CHOOSE to live in a city just so we won't have to be in the car "so much." That's assinine. Also, most of the state we live in is quite rural anyway, and we're not moving to a state that is more "metropolitan" just so we don't have to be in the car "so much." Why should we move away from family that we love very much and are close to, just so we don't have to use our car? Your whole assertion is incredibly assinine and presumptuous. You do not know people's situations.

And beyond that, I'm not going to just sit in the house all day every day just to satisfy YOUR insistence that I keep my child out of the car. My child likes to have new experiences, see new things, visit friends and relatives. She likes going to new places. She much prefers that to being at home, in fact, where we fall into a boring routine and do the same thing all the time.

If you're just going to sit around at home all day every day because you're afraid of everything, then that's not much of an enjoyable life.

[chellemarie]

Corvus...I'm kind of agreeing with you, sort of.

It's not practical for me to walk my kids to school, daycare and then me to work. Really. It's also not practical for us to brave the elements and walk to the grocery store. We dont' live that far out of the way, even. Our community is just not set up for walking. I do think that's sad, but I'm not going to move to the part of town that is within walking distance of the store and the post office and such. And if I moved closer to work, my husband would have to live on the other side of town to live closer to his job.

I.don't.think.so.

We can't protect ourselves from every germ, commercial, bad idea, idiot or injury. We can do things to reduce our contact with those things, but there comes a point where it's excessive and your quality of life is diminished for all the worrying and attempts to avoid this or that.

As consumers and parents, we need to be mindful of who is reaching into our pockets and why the safest carseat is so expensive and why, if our children are to remain in carseats for 6+ years, you can't fit more than one seat in a regular old car - forcing many parents to dish out MORE money for a minivan.

I should have invented carseats AND gone into auto (minivan) sales. I'd be a babillionnaire!

[SoHappy]

Corvus, I'm sorry you're so offended by this thread. You sound very angry, but I haven't shared other threads with you, so I don't really know your communication style. I feel you may misunderstand the intent of the previous posts. They are not condemning you, telling you how to live, or saying people should cower in their homes. You sound happy with your life. You've chosen to live in the country, which equates to choosing to drive a lot. We're just pointing out that both are choices and they are interlaced, they do not stand apart with one being a choice and the other being an unexpected or uncontrollable fate.

On a personal note, and sorry if it offends, but I'd like to say I believe it is truly wonderful to stand up for yourself, but I'd love to see you share your thoughts using a less abrasive tone. I think it would contribute to better understanding. We're a generally kind and peaceful tribe, interested in sharing and learning. :hippie

[Corvus]

double post

[Corvus]

Originally posted by SoHappy
Corvus, I'm sorry you're so offended by this thread. You sound very angry, but I haven't shared other threads with you, so I don't really know your communication style. I feel you may misunderstand the intent of the previous posts. They are not condemning you, telling you how to live, or saying people should cower in their homes. You sound happy with your life. You've chosen to live in the country, which equates to choosing to drive a lot. We're just pointing out that both are choices and they are interlaced, they do not stand apart with one being a choice and the other being an unexpected or uncontrollable fate. I did not misunderstand the intent of the OP. She is saying that people think she doesn't place much importance on carseat safety, because she doesn't buy a Britax car seat and drive a new car. I would personally never think or say that to anyone. As long as you have an age- and weight-appropriate carseat for your child, it's installed correctly, and you use it every time you get in the car, then I think you are doing all you can to make your child as safe as possible when in the car. But the OP DOES sound like she is lackadaisical about carseat safety, and acts like staying OUT of the car automatically makes her a better/safer parent. It doesn't. Unfortunately, an accident can happen whether you are on the road 1 hour a week or 6 hours a day.

She (and others) are saying that I am putting my child at risk by *oh the horror* putting her in a car. Of course we CHOSE to live in the country; I stated that in my last post. But now that the choice is made, we HAVE to drive a lot to get things done. There is no longer a choice. Get it?

Originally posted by SoHappy
On a personal note, and sorry if it offends, but I'd like to say I believe it is truly wonderful to stand up for yourself, but I'd love to see you share your thoughts using a less abrasive tone. I think it would contribute to better understanding. We're a generally kind and peaceful tribe, interested in sharing and learning. :hippie Really? Is this quote by srain considered "kind and peaceful"?:

Originally posted by srain
PEEVE: When folks say "I HAVE to drive a lot because I live out in the country." Um, no, if you live somewhere far from where you can obtain your needs, without public transportation options, you have to drive a lot because you CHOSE to do so.

That reads like an attack to me.

[daylily]

Boy, I wish I'd discovered this thread before it ran into 3 pages.

Identitycrisismama, I totally get what you are saying. I get a bit peeved about the same thing--that there's always one more thing we must *BUY* to keep our children perfectly safe. Time spent in the car issue aside, I feel that parents are guilted into buying more and more expensive safety equipment.

One winter night when I was 3, I was buckled into an early '70s era car seat, in my mom's *corvair* and we were in a serious accident. The car was totalled. I was uninjured, as were my father, my pregnant mother and my 2 year old brother who was buckled into a similar car seat--one which would have modern parents gasping at its lack of safety features.

Would I use the same car seat for my children? No. But we drive a 14 year old volvo wagon instead of a nice shiny minivan with built in car seats as most women of my aquaintence drive. We can't afford a new car. We can't even afford a used one. I do wonder if the minivan brigade sniff at my old car and think I'm a bad mother for not buckling my little darlings into a state-of-the-art perfectly safe vehicle.

[SoHappy]

Corvus, I was talking about the immediately preceding couple of posts, not the original post. Sorry I wasn't clear.

I do not feel the quote from srain was offensive, but I understand that you did. I don't think the discussion between you and I will turn around and become productive, so rather than risk upsetting you further, I will wish you peace and bow out.

[Piglet68]

I'd like to remind everybody to please try and express themselves in a respectful manner. The purpose of these discussions is to learn from each other, and that's very difficult when the tone gets aggressive and accusatory. One can disagree, raise potentially controversial points, and yet still be respectful.

If you find a post offensive, please do NOT post that to the thread, but contact me or another moderator (if I'm not available) to complain.

I have sent out some PM's asking for post edits. In the meantime, I'd like to ask that people posting to this thread please keep to the topic at hand.

Thanks! :rainbow

[mcimom]

I have used secondhand carseats for all 3 of my dds - they are most definitely NOT the most expensive and to be honest :eek I have never even checked where they are on the "safety" rating (if there is such a thing? I assume so as it sounds like some of you have done your research)

I have never in my life ridden in a car seat and my parents used to make trips across our state quite often. I know it's not much of an argument, but I'm alive :D though I was in an end-for-end rollover accident in my teens that would have surely killed me had I not been wearing my safety belt.

I'm in my car all the time too and I don't have plans to reduce my driving time in the near future.

Why am I posting? I'm just rattling on. I guess to say that I would be one of the few who would not look down on you ICM and chelle - 'splainin! you betcha! so true!

[Clarity]

you did check that they weren't recalled, though, right? I hope? cpsc.gov has recall info going back many years.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Well, first I would like to thank everyone for this discussion. This idea had been rolling around in my head for a long time and I was having a hard time with it myself.

What I have gathered is that people who HAVE to drive, CHOOSE to drive, LOVE to drive don’t much like the insinuation that they are putting their children in danger by using the car. I don't blame you!

I messed up my approach specifically because I didn’t want to offend. I really didn’t want this to seem like I was superior because I don’t drive much. I still drive and I “have to”, “choose to” AND “love to”. I think that I straddle the line of automobile safety. On some levels I do all that I can to keep my kid safe in the car, including driving a nice safe car, use a carseat AND limit my driving time BUT on other levels I am very taboo in my opinions of auto safety.

One opinion that I have, which I think would be considered taboo is that all roads are NOT equal. I do not believe that a child driving in inner city grid lock traffic, a child on a country road and a child on a busy high-speed commuter highway are all a the same risk. Dare I say that a child driving through downtown Paris is not in as much need for a carseat as a child on Interstate 95 going through DC during road-rage commuter hell!

That said, I would like to address the issue of my "acting lackadaisical” because it is one of the issues I'm talking about.

My daughter is only in the car an hour a week, strapped into a carseat, however, we use a taxi without a carseat a few times a year (in downtown traffic). Now, even though my child is statistically MUCH, MUCH safer than those of a family who drives for 3 hours per DAY on I95 with their kids always strapped, those people are considered very safety conscious parents and I am considered lackadaisical. What’s up with that?
(This here, I know is very controversial).

Please know that my controversary (oops, controversy…freakin’ spell check!) is not directed at anyone of you. In fact, it is not directed even at the 3 hour/day mamas and papas. I know that people have their own circumstances, as I’ve said many times before.

On that vein, I would like to just give a little support to those mamas who “choose” to live in the country. I never meant to target you. I think the word “choose” should be used very carefully because we all know that what one ACTUALLY chooses varies considerably from person to person.

I do agree that it is a strange choice to move to the country and then expect all of the conveniences urban living and then just spend half your life in the car fulfilling both expectations but I doubt that most people are doing that. For those who are, may I suggest the suburbs? .:LOL

The reason that I try NOT to be judgmental towards people who drive often is because I’m aware of my good fortune in deciding where I wanted to live. We got lucky (in some ways/not in others-but that’s another story) and we were able to really “choose” where we wanted to live. I don’t really know where I’m going with this other then saying that I know that “choice” is a tricky thing.

Sohappy, I hope you are bowing out of the discussion between you and corvus and NOT, NOT, NOT this whole tread. I appreciate BOTH of your opinions. :D

[IdentityCrisisMama]

As long as you have an age- and weight-appropriate carseat for your child, it's installed correctly, and you use it every time you get in the car, then I think you are doing all you can to make your child as safe as possible when in the car. [/B]

I know what you are saying, here. I appreciate how you said "I think" and I DO agree with you.

My issue is that I think “automobile safety” should extend beyond when children are in the car.

I liken this to “safe sex”, which I believe should include a discussion on abstinence. I think that automobile safety should also include a discussion on “abstinence”, KWIM?