Does AP = permissive (long0

[Monica]

Help!!! My 4 year old is so CHALLENGING! We are having such huge huge problems with him, I don't even know where to begin. I guess I feel like I was doing most things right with him. He nursed until 2 1/2, coslept until he left of his own accord about a month ago, I didn't believe we would spoil him by holding him or responding promptly to his cries. We redirected when he got into something not safe, Dh and I are very much into teaching him how to do things and not saying, "no, you are too little or don't touch" We have always let him explore. Our rules are simple...you can't hurt anyone else, you can't make more work for anyone else ie it is not fair to leave dishes in living room, because mom has to do extra work to round them up before doing dishes. Dh and I took a parent effectiveness course which advocates appealing to your childs values, active listening, problem solving, respecting your child's decisions even if they aren't what you would have made. We truly embraced everything we learned in the course. Ds has inherited a fiery temper (from dh) and Dh said he really needed an outlet, so we provided a blow up punching bag and tent, both of which were great for awhile. He was very polite, please and thank you, excuse me, the whole bit. Not to say that he was perfect, he did hit other children, was not very good at sharing, he was not that thrilled with his new baby sister...a pretty normal 3 year old as far as we were concerned. He is very bright (I am not just saying that because I am his mom :) and now he is 4 going on 30. Most of his offensive behavior had it's beginnings last spring (we were moving). Dh and I considered it moving stress and tried to give him a little room. Then we were in a bad housing situation with neighbors we were not prepared to for and he learned some name calling, the word stupid, and a few other bad things over the summer. We moved again over the holidays and are now settling into our new home. Again, I still think we are experiencing stress from the move and now Dh is going to sea for 2 months in a few weeks. (we are Navy) I know that this is stressful too. But ds is so out of control and I feel like we are just letting him get away with being a brat because he is stressed out. I am embarassed to go almost anywhere with him, I am embarassed for friends (mine)and family to be around him. I feel like I can't get out and try find some other 4 year olds, cause when their mom's meet my kid, they won't want us around. He is sassy, bossy, disrespectful, uses terrible language, he hits me if I try to talk to him. about 15 times a day, I hear "shut up mom" It seems he spends every waking moment looking for ways to be a brat. From harassing his sister to screaming in the grocery store, to calling EVERYBODY a stupid head. Today there was a newborn crying in the grocery store. My 18 month old was pointing and making her little "mom that baby is crying" grunt and I was telling her it was ok, that baby's mom was taking care of her, and my ds just started shrieking that the baby was stupid and it should "shut up." He spits on everybody we walk by and if a stranger says hi to him or compliments him, he spits on them and tells them to go away. I find myself praying that nobody will address him directly. There are so many times I have just wanted to slap him and I have to physically stop myself and just walk away. Dh and I were both raised by spankers and we are trying so hard to overcome that. I am just at my wits end. I feel like I know all the things I should not be doing (punishment based discipline) and don't have any tools for the things I should be doing. I feel like we are way to permissive, like he gets away with everything but I don't know how to set limits. Everything I think of is punishment. I know both our families are looking at us and thinking that we totally spoiled him with the way we parented him as a baby. I don't want to think that but he is just killing me. My brother in law has been here for 2 weeks and some of the words he has used to describe ds are...brat, spoiled, cry baby, lazy, mean. I don't want this for my son. Admittedly, there are some things I need to do that require a lifestyle change for us. He has never had a regular bedtime and of course things are worse late in the evening when dh and I need a break and he is still wound up, I have recently been doing some reading on sugar intake and think that he consumes way too much. Dh needs to work on reigning in his language, tone of voice, and constant put downs of strangers. (Dh is very bright also and has a slight superiority complex - only problem is he talks about how inferior most other people are much of the time - has always driven me crazy, never thought about how it would affect our children) Dh is very impatient when it comes to "stupid people" and I can see the same frustration is ds when you aren't "getting it." Frustration quickly turns to anger. I need to spend more time with him (moving has kept me so busy). I am seriously considering unpluging the TV the entire time dh is at sea. Not sure about restrictions on the computer yet. It is about50/50 the time he spends just playing and playing educational software. I am also considering a gymnastics class or martial arts where he can go and be physical in a big way. Wow, this has got to be the longest post on record. I am not even sure what kind of help I am looking for here. I guess I just needed to rant to other moms who understand my instense desire to not punish (all my other friends say he just need a good whooping) He is amazingly strongwilled and feels things so deeply. One thing is that his pride is hurt so easily that I feel like we are constantly tip toeing around him. I need to try and list some good things about him. I have been feeling so badly most of the time lately, sometimes I feel like I tell him I love him just to hear myself say it and try to believe it. ok good things...He plays pretty nicely with his baby sister most of the time, he is good at sharing his snacks and drinks with her when she asks, he is very smart, he is a cuddlebug and wants to be held often, he decided he wanted to have his own room and sleep in his own bed after we moved into our new house - we decorated it together and he loves it, he can write his own name, he is a wiz on the computer. THis is hard, I can only think of things he is good at and am having a hard time coming up with personality triats that I find admirable or even acceptable. Ok, his is strongwilled, despite it's challenges, I want him to emerge into adulthood strong willed. He is inquisitive. He likes to be read to and wants to learn to read. ok, I guess I have to quit. If you are still reading this, thanks for getting all the way to the bottom. If you have any insight, it would be much appreciated. If you can refer me to any good reading, (I have already read, Children the Challenge, How to talk, PET, Sears Discipline... If you have nothing to add, thanks for letting me get it all out. It is sometimes hard to talk to dh because he blames is own behavior for much of the problems we are having and of course no one in our families understands. (well except maybe my MIL who says dh was exactly the same as a child - but she used to whip him with a flyswatter handle and he was a WAY out of control teen. Trying real hard not to go there. Goodnight.

[Monica]

Wow, just reread this and still have so many thoughts...wondering if he is having some self esteem issues. He is also a perfectionist and does not tolerate is own mistakes well. Does anybody have any good books an self esteem?

[13moons]

Oh Monica! I was just going to bed and read your post and felt like i had to respond! I wish we lived nearer--we'd play with you! My ds will be 4 in march--this is such a hard period. They have so much going on and so much boy aggression! I have 2 dds who are 9 and 6 and, while this was a challenging age with them as well,it was different...not so physical I guess, but that's not quite it. Anyway, your ds sounds like a great normal kid responding to the stresses in his life (the moves,etc.) in the way that his temperment leads him. I have so much to say, I can't say it all right now and I don't know how helpful it would be anyway. It sounds like you've done a good job and it sounds like you have already pinpointed some things that might help. Particularly diet and probably a good bedtime routine will help. I find that if I let my kids straggle off to bed when they feel like it, only one of the three will go right away when she's tired. My other dd will stay awake reading until all hours of the night but then be very cranky the next day and my ds will hit a point where he just gets spun out and then can't go to sleep because he's too wound up. BUT, if I hit that window where they are getting tired and slowing down and get them into bed, read some stories, good night, have sweet dreams, bedtime is now, it's all good. I don't like to force a routine on them as far as when they eat and when they sleep, etc. but I definiely have found that if i can manage to keep dinner time fairly consistent (and not let it get too late) and bedtime fairly consistent with a minimal routine, it can help the evenings run a lot more smoothly.
Which does not help you for the rest of the day, though. I feel like a lot of it will probably pass. I agree with you that dh should be more careful now about what he says about others when ds is listening, turning off the TV for a period always works wonders in my house. I think the fewer the rules and the simpler the rules the better too...just consistently bring everything back to the rules. When you hit, it hurts people's bodies, when you spit and call names, it hurts people's feelings and the rule is "no hurting". There are natural consequences for behaviors like that though that can be effective; in my opinion, the natural consequence for behaving in a way that disturbs other people might be that you can't be in the room with those other people right now. If one of my kids is yelling, or being rude, or throwing things, or whatever, I will ask them to leave the room until they can calmly come back and then we'll discuss whatever the problem is. It's not a punishment--the natural consequence of losing your cool is you take a breather and get it back. This is probably all stuff you know anyway. :rolleyes:
Basically, I want to offer my support and my humble opinion that with patience and consistency in enforcing your rules and positive reinforcement and, probably acceptance that your son's tempermant is playing a role here...this too shall pass.
Book suggestions...
Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka
Raising Boys
Your Child's Self Esteem
darn it, I'll have to get back to you with the authors of the other two-sorry.
Anyway, good luck and we are here to listen whenever you need us!
:hippie

[13moons]

-slightly OT-
Funny (well, not really) but my MIL says my dh and BIL were that way when they were kids too. She used a whiffle ball bat on them...the sucker apparently stings like all heck but leaves no mark.:(
Didn't work for them either...they were both wild and violent teenagers. In fact when I first met dh he was 16 and on probabtion for beating some other kid up.:eek After weeks of court ordered anger management therapy and some positive attention, he was a changed man (well, not quite a man yet....)
So, anyway, the violent parenting didn't work, but some good techniques for dealing with the tempermant he was born with and someone appreciating the good things about him did.
:hippie

[mamaduck]

I think that diet, a bedtime routine, and extremely limited TV will go a long way toward helping him. Also, it sounds to me like your DH needs to find a way to curb what he is modelling, but also to find a way to get connected now, and stay connected with your son while he is away. It sounds like a lot of his "stress" is caused by your DH's job, and your DH's travels, and I think your DH needs to take some responsibility to reassure and provide a sense of security for your son. I think it can be done -- kids are resilient in this way, and lots of love and affection can stabalize them in the midst of change.

I don't want to say you are permissive, because I don't like that word at all. But it does sound like you are using your son's "stress" as an excuse to ignore or tip-toe around his negative behaviors. Thats not helpful to him. He needs to learn to act well *even when things are hard.* Of course, this is a life long process and you can't expect instant success. But for him, the learning period is NOW. And he can't learn if you are cringing and turning the other way when he does terrible things.

I would make a commitment to stop and addresss *every* negative behavior, immediately. Get down on his level, look in his eyes, and tell him its not okay. Tell him that he is hurting feelings and making people angry, and that its a big problem. Expect him to stop and address every negative behavior with you. Its not okay to call someone a nasty name, and then expect life to go on as normal. Things don't work that way.

I'm learning as my children get older that name-calling and intentional rudeness is in the same catagory as hitting. Name calling falls under the simple family rule, "No hurting." Just because it isn't physical doesn't mean it is not an assault. It is bullying, and there should be no tolerance for it.

Many parents here do not use time-outs, and personally, I avoid measures that feel like punishment. However, my children do get time-outs when they intentionally hurt someone -- whether it be by hitting or by name calling. My logic is that if you hurt people, then you can't safetly be around people -- and you need to take a few minutes to yourself to pull yourself together. My kids accept this -- its the only time they are asked to either sit on the steps or in their room (their choice) until they are able to interact constructively with the people around them. If there was intentional hurting in public, we would probably go home.

[pamelamama]

:hug

You should get some good support from the mamas here! Good luck .

[Liz]

Your son sounds just like my nephew (5 will be 6 next month) who came pretty close to ruining Christmas dinner for our family with his behaviour. I watch my brother and SIL struggle with him every time we are together. I think they were too "permissive" earlier on but they are much more diligent now. Just as Mamaduck suggests, they try not to let any transgression go by unaddressed. This was hard on Christmas because they wanted to talk with the rest of us and enjoy themselves so some behaviours snuck by then WHAM he takes the ball and runs with it. He is so intelligent he never misses an opportunity to push the boundaries. It's hard to like him but given the right circumstances he can be great. This past summer our two families spent a day at the beach. We just laid around on the sand, making sand castles, collecting shells, letting the day happen. It was wonderful!

I don't know if this has been helpful. :confused: I do agree with all MamaDuck's suggestions. Also if your dh doesn't like his ds's behaviour he should take another look at his own. Sounds like your dh is the one person who can understand your son's behaviour so he might be able to get through to him in some way.

Good luck,

Liz

editted to clarify: I do not think my brother and SIL's early "permissiveness" is the cause of his present behaviour. He is just a challenging child to parent and they let him get away with some things thinking it would pass. I think they now realise that it isn't going away it's getting worse as he gets smarter (he really was an "easy" baby!). So please do not think that your AP ways made your son like this. But your AP ways will definitely help you all through it. :thumb

[scoutycat]

I read somewhere that kids that feel out of control will sometimes act out in a subconcious desire for someone to set boundaries or limits for them. Is it possible with all the upheaval of moving, etc. he just needs something predictable? Maybe a routine, or set of routines, would help? The world is a pretty scary place when you're not sure what you can count on anymore.

[mamaduck]

Yeah, Scoutycat -- thats a good suggestion. My kids depend much more on having a "routine" when our life is going through major transitions. I do think it helps to stabalize them.

Also -- I was thinking about this thread this afternoon, and wanted to come back to suggest regular 1:1 time with your son -- either him alone with you, or him alone with your DH. Maybe take him out to lunch alone once a week (no baby sister) and concentrate on connecting with him, and also use it as a time to focus on learning manners. My oldest seems to rely a lot on our precious 1:1 time, but he especially did at around ages 3.5-5 yo.

[Marsupialmom]

You could have been writing about my son when he as five. We had our world turn upside down because of uncontrollable situations. The rest I am going to write might not make others happy on this board.

I implemented something I thought I never would. It is called 1,2, 3 Magic by Thomas Phelan. I did modify it: I always let him know what he was doing wrong. “We don’t say hurtful words” I did not follow the sleep advice (he is not a co-sleeping advocate).

From the day we implemented this different type of discipline we got immediate results. Our world was so out of control he needed something insanely consistent and predictable. I also needed a rescue because I could not “think” to discipline appropriately.

We did work away from this method. It was a band-aid my son needed while we worked on other things. I would encourage you to look into other reasons for this behavior. I would not means think 1,2,3 Magic be a perminant fix.

I do agree with the perfectionist issue. I think that is/was why my son had his most problems because he could not control anything so he try to control everything else. My son has always needed a scedule/routine to be happy.

I would also look into an autism spectrum disorder called aspergers.

Please e-mail me if you want to talk about this more.

[DaryLLL]

Can not say enough good things about Raising Your Spirited Child, and its accompanying workbook.

I have 2 spirited kids and one spunky. We are surviving, they are now 15 and 12 yrs, the oldest spunky one is 18.

I lived by that book and How To Talk. Mine didn't say I hate you, or You're stupid --to me. They would call each other idiots (gotten from TV). Dd would hit and shove. She didn't have a firm grasp that other people had feelings for the longest time.

Patience is a virtue. I learned so much about patience and sacrifice from those kids. I had to repeat repeat repeat the rules, describe the situation, and use the consequences of bad behavior (mistakes).

I was lucky in that all mine had verbal skills very early. If yours doesn't (not a 4 or 5 yo, but I am addressing moms with younger spirited kids), perhaps sign language would help?

I always made (make) a point of reinforcing positive behavior. I think this is more efective than responding to bad bahavior. Too much attn for bad behavior reinforces it.

Now, if Dad is cussing at the kids, or absent too much at work or activities, or just b/c he is watching TV when he should be helping with bedtime, you've got a huge obstacle to oevercome. If
dad was/is spirited and raised punitively, big trouble. Moms can only do so much. So don't blame yourself if Dad is dropping the ball.

Do what you can. Remember to nurture yourself. Get Dad to watch kids if he is willing, or try hard to find a cool babysitter and pamper yourself now and then. You need some perspective. If you're burnt out, you will have less of the all-important patience.

Playgrounds, hands-on museums and karate-gymnastics-soccer-ceramics lessons were good stress relievers for mine too. We could not stay cooped up in the house all day.

HTH!

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

First, good for you for recognizing that there is a problem here and reaching out for some insight and suggestions.

You list a lot of behaviors of his, but not much about how you are addressing them now. There is a big difference between gentle discipline and NO discipline. Even if he is "stressed out" by everything around him, you still have the right and responsibility to expect reasonable behavior. So, if you don't want to "punish", then you need to come up with some logical consequences for bad behavior. Frankly, I'm not all that sold on the "no punishment" idea and do use very limited time outs (just for hurting others). You could also use restricting TV or not going on outings (because TV is giving him something negative to copy and because if he can't be trusted to behave then he can't go with you). Or whatever works for you, but he needs to know that this sort of thing isn't acceptable and there will be consequences for it.

Modelling proper ways to interact with people is always good. So is praising any positive interactions that he has. "Thank you for addressing me nicely", "Thank you for saying please" ... that sort of thing will go a long way.

Finally, he may be doing all of this to get your attention, which is probably, very understandably, scattered at the moment. As a reward for good behavior, you might try more one-on-one time or special "time with Mom" treats. Maybe "if you can behave nicely at the grocery store, then we can go to lunch" or whatever.

Good luck!

[Melissa S]

Hi,
Just want to say that not everyone in your situation would be able to handle it with such grace. You may not be feeling very patient but the times I'm *feeling* least patient is when others compliment me on my patience.

Anyway, I'm currently converting from physical discipline and attempting as many alternitives I can. I have never punished my kids for name calling or rudeness, etc... Time outs work but are used not punitively but as an attempt to teach them how to take a step back, breathe, evaluate their actions....they come out whenever they feel they're ready to face the world in a calm manner - they set the time, not me.

When mine act out like this they are usually looking for a reaction. I ignore the negative behavior and praise them when they are kind. They soon learn that their tactics for attention are not getting the results they want.

I also have a husband whose work takes him away for periods of time. Our first child really struggles, esp. when he first gets home she tests his authority. Mom has been boss so long she wants to know where she stands. I think really it's a means of finding out how secure she is. She wants to know exactly where her boundaries are so she feels safe.

It's not a bad idea to get rid of the sugar and high sweet snacks that are in your house. We did this a month ago. It's amazing how much more clear-headed and happy we're all feeling. DD#1 used to be a big problem...hypersensitive and overly emotional...all gone now. It's amazing how much sugar you consume in a day: jam, even the innocent looking cereals, yogurt, juice, etc... it all builds up. And if you have not yet got the cleaning chemicals and personal care chemicals out of your house, this can cause hyperactivity and ADD/ADHD. An article I recently read also points out that the chemical used in bread products so manufacturers can bag it while it's hot (calcium chloride I think) caused the same response in a test group of children. We bake our own bread most of the time.

I hope this helps, can't imagine the difficulty you're having right now but my heart is with you.

Melissa

[Monica]

Wow, thanks for all the support and ideas. I am using or have used all of the methods suggested. I have read 123 Magic but this will not work with him. I am not sure what it is about him but it is absolutely unacceptable to him to feel like we are imposing a punishment on him. I don't mean unacceptable like the kid is mad they got in trouble, I mean the minute I change my expression or tone he freaks out and screams that he doesn't want to hear it. Even when the "punishment" is discussing why we don't hit or whatever. It is almost as if he recognizing he did something wrong but can't swallow the pride to apologize or make it right. 9 times out of 10 if dh and I don't react to a mistake or grievence that he has commited sometime later in the day he brings it up and talks about how it makes him feel or what he did wrong. Time out just doesn't work because he won't stay where I put him, or leave the room if directed. I have even tried removing myself and he follows and continues whatever behavior is causing the problem. As far as ignoring goes, I do that at home great but just can't manage to ignore him when he is screaming continuously at the top of his lungs in the grocery store or at church. I have and will continue to immediately drop my shopping and leave when he is so out of control in public. Of course he is very smart and he know which situations are the best ones for acting up. ok very late and baby crying so will come back sometime this weekend. Thanks so much. I needed this.

[Monica]

ok, I am back quicker than I thought I would be...first I am going to get Raising your Spirited Child and read it ASAP. Next I will get us all on a better routine, reduce the sugar in this house, and get us unpacked and settled. I was thinking about the TV thing and wondering why he seems to be watching so much lately and I realized that 95% of his toys are still in boxes. We moved in 3 weeks ago and are getting new carpet today so our house has been a mess the whole time, we have been trying not to unpack so much so that all the boxes could go out into the garage on carpet day (today:bgbounce ) Anyway should get us mostly settled in a week. I need to get back to spending my day with my children, afterall, that is the reason I chose to stay home with them. Going to find him an organized outlet for some of his energy. Somebody on here said I need to be more direct and tell him that xyz behavior is not OK when he is doing it. I tried that and walked away (to disengage myself) and he calmed down. I have been saying "your behavior is unacceptable" He probably hasn't understood me clear enough, but to say it is not ok...that he got. I also told him that freaking out was not the correct emotional response to something that is mildly distressing and he stopped crying and looked at me kind of funny. I am not sure where he learned some of these behaviors, obviously dh and I rewarded them somewhere a long the way. After I get us settled a bit I will reevaluate and probably come back here for more ideas. I know that he has a huge anger management problem that we need to guide him into some self control. The frustration with not being perfect at everything he tries will probably linger for a long time. Often dh just stares at one of ds's outburst and says, "I understand exactly how he feels...I wish my parents would have recognized everything I was feeling" That's great I say now tell me how to help him. As far as dh going to sea, that will be stressfull, but I am looking to that time as an opportunity to really BE with ds. There won't be any pressure to fix meals, or get uniforms washed, or clean up messes. Thanks for listening and if you still have something to suggest please do, I will be popping in here again. Thanks for letting me unload.

[nancy926]

I don't have a four-year-old but I will someday! I'm sending out hugs and good thoughts!

Some thoughts to take or leave:

I also grew up wanting to do everything perfectly. I still feel that way sometimes! Maybe you could do something new with your son, together, that you don't know how to do? So he can see you learn and make mistakes and see that it's okay? I found that once I committed to doing something I thought I was "bad at" and realized i could learn and get better, a lot of that frustration went away. (Of course I was 32 at the time!)

Can he try to express his feelings in words? Paintings? Sculpture? Puppetry? Telling him that freaking out at something small is "not the correct emotional response" sort of scares me because who's to say what's correct emotionally?I freaked out a few nights ago because DD woke up 5 times in 4 hours. Whether it was correct or not to do that, I did it! You know? I am not good w/anger so I had to freak out first, and then talk through how I was feeling and why. If you can help him to describe what he's feeling and maybe explore why, he might not need to freak out next time.

And yes, I know I'm emotionally immature in the anger realm....! I am just figuring this out now that we have a toddler of our own.

Best wishes,
nancy

[Melissa S]

One day my mom figured something out with my strong willed 3yo dd. When she started to freak about something my mom looked at her, laughed, and said, "this is rediculous, you're being sooo silly!". dd started laughing and it totally dispelled the negative emotions. I do this now from time to time and she just snaps out of it, weird.

If you're at home you might also want to give him a peice of paper and crayons and tell him to draw his feelings. This worked with dd #1. She's now 8.

I can really see how all the turmoil could be causing this behavior, esp. if he's a kid that need order and routine. I'm sure things will calm down for him once you're settled and structured again.

:D

[Monica]

Nancy, I understand your concern about me telling ds what is appropriate as far as responding to his emotions. But I really think he just doesn't know how crazy his behavior is. I am not saying this is a permanent or even the right way to respond to him. But at this point, there is NO talking it out. The minute I try it escalates. Even if I say in a cheery voice, "Lets color out your feelings" He throws the crayons across the room and screams louder or starts to hit me. I need something to snap him out of it, get his attention, so that we can talk about how he feels. I try not to make him feel bad, or sorry, or embarassed, I just want to help him talk out his anger and frustration. I do recognize that sometimes the best thing to do is let him finish his tantrum and revisit it later. I do that often but every once in awhile I need to seize the moment. Honestly, when he was preverbal, I helped him learn his emotions by giving them names when he was feeling them, somewhere a long the way, I have stopped doing that. To me telling him when his behavior does not match his emotions or pain level is going to the next level of emotional health. It is hard to live with a child whose response to everything seems emergent. I have a hard time telling when he is really hurt (physically or emotionally) because the response is always the same and always hysterical. Maybe if somebody had helped you in this way as a child, you wouldn't be struggling with it now. I don't know, but that is my thinking. Dh was the same way and couldn't get a handle on it until he went to a military academy after high school. I don't want my ds to have to wait that long.

Melissa - the crayon thing doesn't work, I think he needs to release in a physical way. I am going to try have us act like the animal he is feeling like, roaring like a lion when he is angry or frustrated, hopping like a kangaroo when we are happy, what ever hits us when he is emotional. Thanks for the idea though. Will keep it mind when dealing with dd in the future.

[Melissa S]

Quote Monica, "I try not to make him feel bad, or sorry, or embarassed, I just want to help him talk out his anger and frustration."
___________________________________

I may not be reading this right but this statement concerned me. Maybe at four he needs to learn that it's not all about him, that he should start to feel bad, sorry, and embarrased. To not expect these emotions could be to expect him not to have a conscience. I'm not saying those feelings should be imposed on him - that is manipulation, but to make him aware that others have feelings and that his behavior is hurtful, that he should feel regret and embarrassment at his bad behavior. Neither am I saying that you should humiliate him, but there is a place for being ashamed for behaving poorly. Maybe helping him talk it out is not what he needs right now. Maybe you need to take the focus completely off him. I'm not an expert on your kid, just going with the info I've got. I also want to say I'm not judging you, just trying to help solve a problem from my eyes.

Melissa :D

[Melissa S]

Also wanted to add that if you are trying alot of new ideas in dealing with this problem you may be confusing him. Each new approach should be done consistenty for a period b4 you will see any results. Don't expect to see changes in just one day.

Melissa

[Piglet68]

When reading through your post, I couldn't help but get the strong feeling that you are dealing with a very angry little boy. It sounds to me as if something deep down inside him is bothering him. Since he probably has no way of knowing that, of expressing it, of even figuring out what it is, it just manifests itself in all sorts of negative ways.

There are two communication methods that you might try to start up a dialogue between you and your son with the goal of helping him to identify what is making him angry, what triggers it, communicating that to you, and figuring out ways (with your guidance and wisdom) of expressing those emotions in non-negative/destructive ways.

One way is to converse through play. Lawrence Cohen describes this in detail in his book "Playful Parenting". You might try taking some time out each day to get on the floor and play with your son, making up scenarios, or following his lead, and seeing where it takes you. I'm pretty sure this book is available at most libraries.

The other communication method is through intentional dialogue. This is described in detail in Harville Hendrix's "Giving the Love that Heals". What's good about this book is it also addresses the issues we as adults pass on to our children. It is rather comprehensive, however, and is part of a larger series. The book "Getting the Love you Want" is about intentional dialogue between partners, as opposed to parents and children. DH and I have found it an invaluable way to deal with our own issues, and you might find it helpful, but it is not a short term solution.

"How to Talk so Kids Will Listen" is what I consider to be a "short course" version of the above. The dialogue technique espoused in this book is very similar to the above intentional dialogue technique, but in a very easy-to-read format.

I hope this helps!

[Melissa S]

I'm thinking you have probably had your fill of advice and if I were in your shoes would be getting frustrated by now. Here's an idea - pray. It's the simplest solution to a complicated problem:D .

Melissa

[Monica]

Melissa - I just wanted to address what you said and maybe clarify... I think when I wrote that I was thinking more along the lines of when he makes a mistake or has an issue with something he has done that isn't necessarily bad or offensive to me or anyone else. I guess I meant that I want to have conversation WITH him and not lecture him. I think you were more right in using the work humiliate. I want him to feel whatever the heck he is feeling, what I don't want is to impose feelings, humiliate him, make it impossible to recover his pride etc. I am dealing with so many things with him, I am confused most o f the time and I probably haven't even described most of what is going on very well. I know this is part of the problem I am having. I can't even figure out what is going on. Tonight I got so angry at him I couldn't be objective and dh had to step in. He punched dd (18mos) right in the face. and I mean punched. I have never seen him do that before. I won't say that it was unprovoked. But It just made me see red. I can't believe how angry I was. As soon as I started yelling, dh came running. I ended up taking the baby and nursing her. Dh later came to me and said he was never able to talk to ds because he sat under the table with his fingers in his ears and screamed that every one was a stupid head and called dh "Mr. bossyhead" He said he sat with him and quietly waited for him to stop but he kept it up for 15 min and dh went back to what he had been doing. Eventually ds came out and went about the rest of his night like nothing happened. i tried to talk about punching in a nice tone, as non threatening as I could, while he was in the bath and he went back to screaming with his ears covered.

I am so frustrated by this behavior because I feel like he is "getting away with it" the hitting I mean. Sometimes I think that him feeling bad about punching his sister should be punishment enough, that he will learn that it doesn not feel good to hurt other people, but then I am not sure that he does feel bad. So did dh do the right thing tonight? I don't know what we could have done differently. Maybe I need to wait a week, not a couple of hours, before talking about punching? I think tonight that ds did feel bad, but he refused to apologize to her. I still feel like he hit and got away with it but maybe that is because if had been me and my sister, punishment would have been immediate and clear. So maybe I just think that is the the way it should be, but what dh did tonight is really ok and maybe was the right way to handle it. ok, I gotta quit, cuz I am confusing myself. The real problem is I am walking the fence between an upbringing and culture that says "spare the rod, spoil the child" (yes I am aware of what it really meant by this in scripture - not what spanking advocates say it means - but I was raised by a spanker) and this enlightened way of instilling values, teaching morals, and parenting.

piglet - thanks for your advice I will take it to heart and do some of the reading you suggested.

also having another small problem that maybe you have some ideas for... everytime ds encounters someone (like a neighbor out in the yard) or meets some one new, he spits at them and then mumbles any one of a variety of things I would rather he not say. It always makes me very uncomfortable and I end up apologizing for him. It is really hard to ignore behavior that is directed at friends, neighbors, strangers etc. I always feel like I have to address it.

[mamaduck]

My older child also did the cover his ears and scream thing when whenever we needed to correct him. Had he hit his sibling, or spat on anyone, we would have picked him up and carried him straight into his room. So long as he wasn't kicking or hitting us, we would have sat in his room with him (so that he wouldn't feel abandoned) for as long as it took to get the clear message to him that, "We don't punch or spit at people." We could all leave his room as soon as he addressed what happened. But we *never* just let life continue as if nothing happened.

Because he had an extreme need to always be "right" about things, it often helped to listen to his side of the story first. So I would say, "When you are finished screaming, I'm ready to hear you tell me what happened." He would usually (eventually) give me some complicated rational for why he thought he should hit or spit. Justification. Then I would acknowlege his feelings, and ask him if there was a better way he could have accomplished whatever he felt he needed to accomplish.

I'm struggling for the correct words for this -- but I think the strong need to be right (perfectionism) in my son is something we've really had to work at helping him to self-manage. He needed to learn that he is not always right, that nobody is always right, that everyone makes mistakes, and that mistakes can be dealt with. We've used the word "problem" a lot with him, and we've emphasized that he is very capable of "solving problems." Along with being a perfectionist, he is very cerebral. He likes to think of things in terms of "problems" that can be solved with some good thinking, and he likes to think that even when he causes a problem -- he is capable to deal with it. I think it would have been a grave disservice to him to let him go through these hard stages convincing himself that he is blameless. Before a kid can learn to accept himself or take responsibility for himself, he needs to learn that he makes mistakes. Its a hard thing to address with sensitivity.

[captain optimism]

There is really nothing more to say after what Mamaduck wrote. She is so on the money. It gives me hope that I will be able to handle this stuff when my son gets to this tough age.

But I do have an observation: you seem to be afraid of your son's emotions. You are doing him a disservice. He is looking for you to help him cope with his emotions. If you act like it never happened, it will stop him from gaining a crucial piece of his early self-control. It was age-appropriate for you not to let him cry when he was a baby, but now he is four and that is a different age. I wouldn't let this behavior go by at all, but would interrupt it--gently, but interrupt it.

I was thinking that maybe a good time to discuss some of the self-control issues is story time, either before bed or before dinner or whenever you read stories together. There are always good guys and bad guys in stories, or conflicts that have to be resolved, and you can talk about your own lives then. Or even, fictionalize some of the stuff that's happening in your lives and make that the story. Sometimes it's easier to talk about intense things in the third person.

[TingTing]

The problem I have with punitive discipline is that it takes the focus of the lesson we’re attempting to give kids off its natural/intrinsic value (ie. if you hit someone, it hurts, makes them sad, turns them away from you, etc.) and onto the avoidance of punishment. I personally would prefer that children learn not to physically or verbally attack someone because it’s hurtful and thus wrong, rather than because punishment (eg. withholding toys, being sent into isolation, etc.) awaits them if they do so. Otherwise, in instances where they know they can get away with something without punishment (particularly common as they get older) what’s stopping them? Of course, even kids who are disciplined punitively (yours truly included) tend to learn the intrinsic reasons not to hurt others as well, but I think it’s a good idea not to confuse the issues in the formative years of their lives.

I prefer for children to learn the natural consequences of their actions. I remember reading some well known parenting book (the name escapes me now) which gave as an example of “natural consequences" an incident involving a family whose 5 or 6 year old son had a habit of senselessly slamming his bedroom door to close it. When he didn’t comply with his parents’ requests to stop this, his parents removed the door from its hinges while he was out, so that when he came home he had no door on his bedroom. The author cited this as an example of showing children the “natural” consequences of misbehaving. I had to laugh because I’ve known plenty of adults to slam doors and have never known the door to be gone the day after. Natural? Please. Natural, in my opinion, is being told, in the kind of respectful manner adults expect for themselves, that slamming the door is loud and disturbs people. I suppose if you slam a door long enough, it will eventually show some signs of wear or even fall off – that would be a natural consequence! But I prefer not to use my inherent physical dominance over children to get them to behave the way I want them to, unless it’s an instance that requires shielding someone from bodily harm.

For a long time I had no interest in the “non-punitive” childcare model. To this day I’m turned off by most of the books I’ve read promoting it because of the often condescending tone the authors take towards parents, and their total disregard for families’ diverse economic and otherwise personal situations. Rather, it took 3 years of working in Early Childhood Ed. for me to embrace the concept, based almost entirely on my actual experiences with kids. So while I hear a lot about these spoiled brats borne out by non-punitive/attachment parenting, I have to say that the children I worked with whose parents did practice it were easily among the most respectful, non-violent, kind, empathetic kids I’ve known (and we’re talking out of a total of probably over three hundred that I’ve worked closely with for an extended period of time). That was in fact the main reason that I decided to have a closer look at the broader non-punitive parenting concepts.

My hat goes off to you, Monica, for you’re obviously a making genuine effort in what seems like a difficult situation. I think the changes you proposed making all sound like good ideas, and your identification of your son’s stress factors sounds right on target. At this point, if I were you I would try to keep situations where he’s liable cause public disturbance (eg. insulting strangers) to a minimum, and focus on improving things at home. That’s not always easy to do of course, and all of us make mistakes so try not to be too hard on yourself. If it makes you feel any better, my cousin was the mother-of-all brats as a child – she threw tantrums, she insulted, the whole bit – and my mother used to grumble about my aunt being too easy on her (they used to gently tell her why they didn’t like her behavior, but never punished, plus they co-slept). Today, admittedly to our collective surprise, my cousin is a fantastic 18 year old – kind, considerate, hard working and even obliging. It took long enough, but evidently my aunt and uncle’s patience paid off. I’ve also used non-punitive communication/”discipline” with kids classified as behaviorally disturbed with great results. It can take a lot more patience (read: time) to see results this way but for me – and, I think, for the kids I’ve cared for – it’s worth it ultimately. One of my rules of thumb is to always put myself in the child's shoes (as hard as that can be sometimes!) and treat them the way I would like to be treated, even in instances where I've been wrong.

Whatever path you choose, I wish you all the best.
:)

[Monica]

Thanks for all the info. I have received "Raising your Spirited Child" and "8 cries of the spirited child" and I am finding my son in the pages of both books. Things have actually been really good this week despite the fact that dh is leaving in a few days. We have been out to eat and managed to run a few errands without incidence. I think he is settling into our new place (other stress related behaviors are starting to disappear - picking at lip, chewing on sleeves etc) So we may be putting the move behind us. We are working on handling the stress of Daddy leaving and I think we are doing pretty well. I have been looking for ways to prevent power struggles, since that is where things seem to get ugliest. Thanks ladies for all your insight.

[pixie-n-hertwoboys]

I just popped here to say that I too have a son VERY VERY similar to yours (my ds is 3). You have gotten some wonderful advice so far so I won't add much.

The book on spirited children should help you - at least it did me in helping me understand my ds better. Also, its helped me not to join him in his frenzy/anger but to help him work it out.

Another thought I had is: I know some of the issues my ds has is food allergies. He can't drink milk - it makes him meaner than a hornet. Also, getting rid of sugars helps too. Ds can't have food dyes, artificial additives in any foods - neither can I for that matter. Walnuts make me a VERY mean person. I say that for the benefit of looking over your sons diet and noticing any changes in behavior after he eats something.

For me having a BOY in general is like me moving to antartica.... its something I know so little about!! I grew up in an all girl house (besides my dad) so having a spirited boy is even more of a mystery to me. :LOL


From one understanding mama. :hug

[Sleepymama]

I am nowhere near this with my spirited 13 month old, but my brother had similar issues growing up, complicated by my parents' divorce. What helped him a little was a good counselor, even at a young age (4-5). You might try to find a good AP friendly marriage and family therapist if things don't get better with all this advice. An objective observer might help you get to the bottom of what's making him so angry.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I briefly read through this thread and have only one thing to contribute, which is that a move can be really hard, on everyone. I look back on our family’s move when my daughter was a little over a year and there were months of hardship for all of us. Good luck and I hope things continue to look up.

[lilyka]

Sorry I haven't read all the responses but need to go make dinner and wanted to add a few things. My dd was right where your son was. People were beginning to really dislike her. And I couldn't blame them. I didn't particularly liek hanging out with her. I just thought I would share some of what we did.

First bed time. I couldn't believe how much this helped. Actually this has improved the attitudes of all three of my children dramatically (you would think after the first one I would have started the others at birth but I am slow learner). Some books that helped me were The No Cry Sleep Solution and The 7 O'clock Bedtime (the second may be more helpful to you since your child is older but I thought the No Cry Sleep Solution was also very helpful with my 2 1/2 year old who never slept. She went from about 6-8 hours of sleep a day (from six months on) to 2 hour naps and bedtime at 8:00 wake time at 9:00

Consistancy every where. Having a bedtime brought more routine and rituals to our day which I think helped. the predictability and structure helped her feel secure. Also exerting more control in her life helped her see she was not he all powerful person she thought she was. And she needed to know that :). I also started enforcing rules consistantly. When she said somehting snotty, hurt someone or was defiant she went to her room. I would remind her why we had that rule (I don't like to be hurt, Those are mean words, Mommy gets to decide XXXX not you)and send her to her room. if she didn't go, I took her. She had to stay there at least 5 monutes after she calmed down. I think it only took about 2 weeks before we started seeing drastic improvements. I read the book 1-2-3 magic and it helped us implement this plan. I can't remember the last time I got to three and we just started around thanksgiving. I know a lot of people here think time outs are too punitive but I didn't want people hating my child. Sometimes kids need a little help learning self control and how to act in certain situations and this helped our dd. It is still pretty gentle when compared to spanking, screaming) Whatever you do need to set some rules (one or two will be enough to start, and be consistant eith consequenses. When he sees you are consistant he will know you mean business when you implement other rules. Also your dh needs to watch his mouth and temper. He is probably the biggest inluance on your sons behavior. Also I think ditching the TV is a great idea. you will be surprised how easy it is. Certainly can't hurt.

i think martial arts is a great idea. We put my dd in several months ago and she loves it. My second child is counting the days until she gets to start (10 more by the way) Things she learned: She is not the best and thats OK so long as sh e does her best. poor girl. Whining, tattling, and hitting doesn't help you (in class it gets you sent home..) You show respect for people who are better than you even if you don' t like them, don't want to or think they are better than you. You only hit in self defense (if you use TKD on anyone outside of self defense or competition you get stripped of your belt at our school).. Also she is really getting fit which is somehting she can be proud of.


Good luck. I know how frustrating this can be.

And to answer the question "Does AAP = permissivness" I think no but a lot of people interpret it as that. I still consider my self firmly attatched and dedicated to meeting my childrens need and sometimes our children don't know what thier need are and sometimes parents missinterpret thier wqants as needs and become over permoissive. IMHO