any radical feminists on MDC?

[princesstutu]

Lately, I feel so bogged down by patriarchy. I wanna discuss life with women who "get it".

Plus...I want to know what other rad fems are doing in this world. You know...w/o reading their blogs. :D

[lolar2]

I guess that describes me philosophically, but I don't really DO much about it at present (in terms of activism). Someday when I have more time, I guess.

[princesstutu]

Hi, again, 1hautemama! Hi to you, too, lolar2!

I feel like I'm at a standstill politically. I almost didn't vote in the last election, but voting is such a strong issue for me, I couldn't allow myself to not do so. I ended up voting for Obama, but I didn't think he was a good choice and I feel like that's borne out. In the end, he is representative of the patriarchy and I think his democratic leanings will allow some benefit for women, I think we (women) really need to rethink how much energy we put behind male politicians and female politicians who want to play with the Big Boys.

I feel like we're at the scraps portion of the day and I want to know what we can do to get past this. It feels so intimidating!

BUT! I finally called the YWCA about volunteering today. I kept forgetting to do it until it was too late in the day (I really need to get back to making lists), but since I was sitting here reading, I picked up the phone and called. I generally volunteer with social community efforts, not ones that are more political, but I really feel the need to get extra political lately. One step at a time!

I don't worry about Roe v. Wade being overturned. There are many reasons for that and maybe I'll get into later. I am boggled by women who are not pro-choice. I understand it's their right, but...I just don't comprehend how one feels that's even a possibility. How could you NOT think you should be able to do what you need to do with your own life and body?

Actually, I'm boggled by a lot of things women do. I really don't think most of us see clearly. I guess that's the plan, tho.

peace

[Hazelnut]

I guess that describes me philosophically, but I don't really DO much about it at present (in terms of activism). Someday when I have more time, I guess.


sort of me too, and I probably don't appear to be much of a radical feminist by how I am currently living. Frankly I think a lot of women feel threatened by some feminists (I stress "some") who put down childcare, and other things that women have traditionally done like cooking, sewing, etc. I think, however, that rejecting feminism b/c of this is as misinformed as putting down these activities in the first place. We need a restructuring so people (and not just women) can work and have kids, with less power imbalance. Well that's not all we need, but I do think that's why some women reject it. My take anyway.

I also fear that I've become apathetic. I'm not okay with sexism when I see it, but there's this acceptance that it all just sucks, and it doesn't go away, and I haven't the thick skin for all the backlash I suffered from saying the simplest things.

[Teenytoona]

My ideal self is closer to radical feminism, but I suppose I look like someone who's feminist when it suits me, and I suppose lately that's how I've been. I'm working on it, but am not the greatest at balancing life and ideals!

But I wanted to say I'm here too! :wave

[PiePie]

I'm pretty hardcore in my feminist convictions. However, I have to say that at the moment the vast majority of my energy is centered on my family, which I experience as a political act (DH would differ). Lots of thoughts and ambitions around work/family restructuring, which i guess is more of a liberal feminist goal. I guess I should be :joy: that it's moving mainstream.

[princesstutu]

I also fear that I've become apathetic. I'm not okay with sexism when I see it, but there's this acceptance that it all just sucks, and it doesn't go away, and I haven't the thick skin for all the backlash I suffered from saying the simplest things.

That was my fear for a while, too. Then, I realized that I'm (still) very angry and I decided to use that anger instead of trying to get rid of it. I feel like I had a thicker skin when I was younger. As I get older, I feel more compassionate and I feel more, period. I wonder if that's just part of being a woman? Sometimes I feel like I carry all the pain of the world on my back. It's draining, but I'm working on channeling all that so that I don't become a depressed, lethargic mess.

Good to see you both here, Hazelnut and Teenytoona!

Oh, and I was gonna speak on the "feminists put us down" mentality. I understand that. I'm one of those feminists who will question a feminists claim to feminism if she's trying to put limits on women. I'm not a feminist b/c I want to be more like a man! I'm a feminist b/c I love being a woman and I think I deserve the opportunity to express that however I wish to do so. I'm a human and I have rights.

My "be more like a man" isn't about doing things that have traditionally been "male fields" but more about behaving like a cog in the patriarchy machine. I keep trying to find uninsulting language for these concepts, but I'm not sure this is the time for that. I really think this is the time for bluntness and unrepentant honesty.

I think the time is ripe for a social overhaul, but I feel like I'm not sure how to participate in it/get it going. I'm not Ralph Nader! :lol

[princesstutu]

Hi, PiePie! I agree that focusing on the family is a political act. How could it not be in this day and age?

[the_lissa]

I guess that describes me philosophically, but I don't really DO much about it at present (in terms of activism). Someday when I have more time, I guess.

This is me right now too.

[calpurnia]

i'm here too! definitely a radical feminist, but like most of the others, i am not really active. & i am very conscious that i don't "look" like a feminist atm, especially since i am a young mum & i'm sure people think i was just dying to get into the kitchen & start raising babies, iykwim. that might just be my paranoia though!

i live in the uk, & all the mums i know through antenatal class etc are going back to work since our babies are nearly one. i am currently obsessed by the "work/life" balance, "mommy" track, maternal profiling, childcare, paternal input etc issues. there doesn't seem to be a feminist movement around these things??

[MittensKittens]

I'm in! :wave I'm Olivia, solo mom by choice of two great kids, living in Serbia, and trying to figure out where to go next in terms of life choices. This is a pretty uncharted place as far as feminism goes, although many locals wouldn't agree. Society is very patriarchal here, and I have to admit I have a hard time dealing sometimes. I want to be get active. The brands of feminism that exist here are not ones that I personally identify with, at all. OK, so that's me. I really hope to see this thread grow as well!

[princesstutu]

Hi, the_lissa, calpurnia, and MittensKittens!

i am currently obsessed by the "work/life" balance, "mommy" track, maternal profiling, childcare, paternal input etc issues. there doesn't seem to be a feminist movement around these things??
I think it gets encompassed in certain feminist tracks, but it certainly doesn't get a positive level of attention, IMO. I've read books by mommy feminists and I came away feeling like those women had a lot more privilege than your "average" woman and due to that, their perspectives were quite superficial. I certainly agree that there is not a movement. That is something I'd like to see change in feminist circles.

Maybe we can discuss that here?

[boigrrrlwonder]

:hola:

I'm a feminist and young parent. I remember trying to get through <i>The Maternal Is Political</i> and it just didn't jive with my parenting values or the experiences I have as a young parent in a blue collar family.

[princesstutu]

We can still post links on MDC, can't we?

If we can, read this (http://www.truthout.org/article/maya-schenwar-feminist-education-beyond-textbook) article about homeschooling as feminist venture.

[flapjack]

I'm kind of here: more of a socialist feminist, tbh.

Melissa Benn wrote Madonna and Child: the politics of motherhood, which is a good read IMO. Calpurnia, Naomi Standlen wrote What Mothers Do, and I know she has links with the Active Birth Centre in south London.

[MittensKittens]

I'm kind of here: more of a socialist feminist, tbh.

Likewise, very socially oriented.

Do you folks have any wisdom to share with me? I have been active in existing movements before, but never set one up from scratch - that's something totally different. Any of you know about the logistics of this? I have been brainstorming over a non-governmental org to empower women on birth options, that is, to open up non-existing options to them, and to educate. Where I am, this seems to be one of the most pressing issues. Obviously, I'd need funding etc. Any ideas?

[Astrogirl]

I think I am, although I'm not sure what the "quintessential radical feminist" is. Maybe i should google. :D Personally, my inner convictions may be controversial in that I think women should proverbially rule the world, so I try to keep those opinions somewhat discrete and do my own thang. :p


I think it gets encompassed in certain feminist tracks, but it certainly doesn't get a positive level of attention, IMO. I've read books by mommy feminists and I came away feeling like those women had a lot more privilege than your "average" woman and due to that, their perspectives were quite superficial. I certainly agree that there is not a movement. That is something I'd like to see change in feminist circles.

Maybe we can discuss that here?

I agree, and I would love to be involved in such a discussion.

[katmann]

Likewise, very socially oriented.

Do you folks have any wisdom to share with me? I have been active in existing movements before, but never set one up from scratch - that's something totally different. Any of you know about the logistics of this? I have been brainstorming over a non-governmental org to empower women on birth options, that is, to open up non-existing options to them, and to educate. Where I am, this seems to be one of the most pressing issues. Obviously, I'd need funding etc. Any ideas?

I can't say I have any advice, but I think this is a great idea. I was really struck during my pregnancy how the issue of birth options is NOT part of the feminist agenda. Reproductive choice is a huge issue for me, and it should include protecting our choices in the way we deliver. An OB can represent the patriarchy just as well as a politician, IMO.

As far as my personal feminist philosophy, my mom was a feminist writer and came from what I think of as an old school of feminism. She really focused on childcare, the pro-choice movement, protection of victims of domestic violence, and equal pay for equal work (those things still being crucially important, of course). I feel more like feminism now is a part of human rights in general, and is tied to basic human needs like clean water, reducing hunger, and environmental protection. We need to address all these issues to truly empower women around the world.

[greenmamapagan]

*Puts hand up* I consider my choice to meet my children's needs as fully as I can a political act.

Reproductive choice is a huge issue for me, and it should include protecting our choices in the way we deliver. An OB can represent the patriarchy just as well as a politician, IMO.


Agreed. There is a bit of feminist birth activist movement here in Aus, here are some articles from a friend of mine:
http://www.ilithyiainspired.com/2008/03/wild-birth.html
http://www.ilithyiainspired.com/2008/04/personal-is-politicalfor-everyone-but.html
By the way, most of the feminist womyn I know here would point out that "Pizzas are delivered, babies are BORN." Language can be subtly disempowering.

[princesstutu]

Do you folks have any wisdom to share with me? I have been active in existing movements before, but never set one up from scratch - that's something totally different. Any of you know about the logistics of this? I have been brainstorming over a non-governmental org to empower women on birth options, that is, to open up non-existing options to them, and to educate. Where I am, this seems to be one of the most pressing issues. Obviously, I'd need funding etc. Any ideas?

Maybe put flyers up around town and start off as a group of women helping women. Find some doulas who've worked in your local hospitals and talk to them about what they see as pressing needs in your birthing community. First get the ppl involved, then do the politicking. At least, that's how I look at it. Have dinners with other women who are concerned about the birthing scene (potluck, of course ;)). Invite women from LLL, API, etc. See what happens.

I keep meaning to do this myself, which is why I posted this. :lol

I happen to be a socialist (really an anarchist and I support socialism as a move toward the anarchy goal), as well. I agree that feminism is a part of human rights (how could it not be? we are human), however I think it's still pertinent that we look at how patriarchy corrupts. I see it as the starting point when it comes to ignoring the basic human rights of others, so I feel like dealing with patriarchy inherently deals with everything that stems from it, which is a LOT. It covers violence, social programming, poverty...everything.

I'm trying to figure out a good way to start a convo on '"work/life" balance, "mommy" track, maternal profiling, childcare, paternal input'. Maybe we can start with work/life balance. How do we feel feminism is already addressing this issue and how do we think it should improve?

[Ambystoma]

I like to refer to myself as a "superfeminist". I was really active in pro-choice movements, women's groups, etc until I moved at the beginning of the year and grad school bogged me down. I am also in a much more politically conservative area, so I have been baby-stepping forward. I try to subtly enlighten my students if ask about anything in the realm of feminism, repro rights, etc. And I always post super-feminist links on facebook (which incidentally makes most of my family uncomfortable, but my newly divorced mom is beginning to embrace her woman power).

But, I guess, as a crunchy, hippie, biologist pagan earth and goddess-worshipper it was natural for me to be consumed with women's rights :lol

[MittensKittens]

It is great to see this thread grow!

Maybe put flyers up around town and start off as a group of women helping women. Find some doulas who've worked in your local hospitals and talk to them about what they see as pressing needs in your birthing community. First get the ppl involved, then do the politicking. At least, that's how I look at it. Have dinners with other women who are concerned about the birthing scene (potluck, of course ;)). Invite women from LLL, API, etc. See what happens.

I keep meaning to do this myself, which is why I posted this. :lol

I happen to be a socialist (really an anarchist and I support socialism as a move toward the anarchy goal), as well. I agree that feminism is a part of human rights (how could it not be? we are human), however I think it's still pertinent that we look at how patriarchy corrupts. I see it as the starting point when it comes to ignoring the basic human rights of others, so I feel like dealing with patriarchy inherently deals with everything that stems from it, which is a LOT. It covers violence, social programming, poverty...everything.

I'm trying to figure out a good way to start a convo on '"work/life" balance, "mommy" track, maternal profiling, childcare, paternal input'. Maybe we can start with work/life balance. How do we feel feminism is already addressing this issue and how do we think it should improve?

Yeah, you are already addressing some of the problem here - no doulas. In fact, fathers are mostly not allowed to attend births either, and in the hospitals where that is allowed, it is a service you have to pay for (!?!). I know one midwife who is interested in getting something going, the midwife who attended my daughter's birth. But she's scared of getting into some trouble.

There is so much to be done here when it just comes to basic respect for women. It is difficult to know where to even start.

[boigrrrlwonder]

If we can, read this (http://www.truthout.org/article/maya-schenwar-feminist-education-beyond-textbook) article about homeschooling as feminist venture.

I LOVE IT!

So, I want to vent. I went to an activist conference this weekend. They said they were going to have childcare. My DD is just getting past her separation anxiety, so I was going to give it a whirl. Even though they said they were going to have childcare for both days, they only had it for part of one. They only had one person in the room, and they wanted sometimes to only have one man in charge (and the organizers thinking they were being progressive by making sure all the childcare wasn't being done by women). They didn't screen or train volunteers AT ALL. If you signed up on the sheet, you got to do childcare. Period. And people wonder why the anarchist scene has so few families involved. UGH.

[princesstutu]

Yeah, you are already addressing some of the problem here - no doulas. In fact, fathers are mostly not allowed to attend births either, and in the hospitals where that is allowed, it is a service you have to pay for (!?!). I know one midwife who is interested in getting something going, the midwife who attended my daughter's birth. But she's scared of getting into some trouble.

There is so much to be done here when it just comes to basic respect for women. It is difficult to know where to even start.

Do you have WIC in your area? Does your WIC have peer breastfeeding counseling? If so, you might want to see about meeting with her/them and seeing if you can do something for the community using WIC clientele. Do you have birth coaches in your area? If so, maybe you can talk to them about surveying/giving a talk at a birthing class.

Where are you located, if you don't mind my asking?

I know when I've started programs/groups for women/mothers, I just posted fliers at the library and told ppl I knew thru LLL and WIC. I didn't usually get a big turnout, but I find that getting ppl involved in activism in my town is a job in-and-of itself.

They didn't screen or train volunteers AT ALL. If you signed up on the sheet, you got to do childcare. Period. And people wonder why the anarchist scene has so few families involved. UGH.
So, do you think you could approach the coordinators of the conference and offer to help handle the childcare for the next one? Or at least let them know that that area is one they need to work on?

I don't know how difficult it would be to work the childcare angle. I'd think the most difficult part would be getting ppl to agree to it, but it could be a purely phone and computer thing. Phone around asking ppl if they'd be willing to give two hours of childcare assistance, then order background searches on them. You'd have to have a fax machine, too, if the ppl aren't local, probably.

[MujerMamaMismo]

:thumb Socialist feminist here. Hi. I am currently on maternity leave with my 1st babe from a feminist mothering organisation and have had a lot of time to sit and ponder. It's been a strange transition from knowing to doing. I live in an inner urban, super progressive area yet still, most of the women in my mum's group complain about unsupportive partners and the lack of value placed on motherhood. We also each host the group week-to-week and trip over ourselves to clean our houses and bake a freakin' cake on our week...me included. It blows me away! I feel like we haven't moved an inch from the consciousness raising groups of the 70's.

It's been a while since I've been active politically outside of my job but I think it's time to get back in the saddle.

BTW -there is another femo tribe somewhere though it's been a long time since it's been active!

[Shabbers]

*tacklehugs the thread*:joy:

Okay...so I don't identify as radfem...but some of the women I respect most do! Put me at the more radical end of liberal feminism here, I suppose.

I dunno - I've never understood why more women *don't* identify as feminist. It just seems so absolutely clear to me...but then, I was quite literally raised on "Free to Be You And Me" by a feminist single mom...so I drank it in with mother's milk so to speak. :D

[MittensKittens]

Do you have WIC in your area? Does your WIC have peer breastfeeding counseling? If so, you might want to see about meeting with her/them and seeing if you can do something for the community using WIC clientele. Do you have birth coaches in your area? If so, maybe you can talk to them about surveying/giving a talk at a birthing class.

Where are you located, if you don't mind my asking?

I know when I've started programs/groups for women/mothers, I just posted fliers at the library and told ppl I knew thru LLL and WIC. I didn't usually get a big turnout, but I find that getting ppl involved in activism in my town is a job in-and-of itself.


So, do you think you could approach the coordinators of the conference and offer to help handle the childcare for the next one? Or at least let them know that that area is one they need to work on?

I don't know how difficult it would be to work the childcare angle. I'd think the most difficult part would be getting ppl to agree to it, but it could be a purely phone and computer thing. Phone around asking ppl if they'd be willing to give two hours of childcare assistance, then order background searches on them. You'd have to have a fax machine, too, if the ppl aren't local, probably.

I'm in Belgrade, Serbia :). No LLL, definitely no WIC... just patriarchy and some EU advocates who wrap themselves up as semi-feminists. There are some strong women in the parliament here, but they are only interested in the agenda's of their respective parties, rather than furthering the feminist cause. Because there is an awful lot of work to be done here, I think a single issue campaign would be best. It is also likely to gain more support, I think. I have already looked into getting subsidies for non governmental orgs, and there are quite a few possibilities. There is one organization for parents that seems quite good as well, and I might find some good people there. Getting locals involved in a movement is key, of course. Well, I AM pretty much a local now, I guess... when I first came here I was told I would not achieve anything, anywhere in this country, unless I "started behaving as a woman". One woman even explained to me in detail how I should "work the patriarchy" to get anything I wanted. Well, no thanks... :)

[TwinsTwicePlusTwo]

Who, me? Radical? :loveeyes:

Really, I'm a radical everything. I never approach issues half-way. I've been involved in politics and protest since I was nineteen years old and had a potent revelation that one person really can make a difference. It was because of the tornado that hit OK City. I was on the front lines of the disaster relief, and realized that one person (OK, four people and pick-up truck) can make the difference between life and death. Nothing was ever quite the same after that. :wink

The issue I've been involved with most heavily is GLBT rights/marriage laws, but I've been involved in lots of feminist issues as well. Pro-choice, birth choice, and I got one of our local newspapers to stop the annoying and sexist habit of specifying when a female police officer did something (they didn't specify when the officer was male). I also do a lot of volunteer work with victims of spousal abuse.

I've always preferred the personal approach. Help one person, educate one woman, you've changed one person's life and I believe this has ripple effects across the world. That was something I learned during my disaster relief. Sure, it's just one shingle, but then you put down another and another and pretty soon you've put a roof back over a family's heads. Then you move onto the next house, and then one day you stand back and see that where there was once nothing but rubble, there's now an entire neighborhood. Damage CAN be undone and change CAN happen, no matter how overwhelming the 'big picture' may seem.

IMO, the feminist movement has seriously dropped the ball on our birth rights. They fight and fight for abortion rights, but if we choose to have the baby, our birth rights have less protection than our termination rights. I do everything I can to educate the women I meet, though, have served as a lay midwife, and have paid for a professional midwife when the woman's insurance wouldn't cover home birth, so I think I'm doing what I can. I figure every woman I can facilitate a home birth for will then tell other women, who will tell others, and so on. Finding MDC has been so helpful with this. I now direct women to these forums because there's more information here than I could ever give (not that I ever get tired of telling my twin birth stories :wink).

MittensKittens, I can only imagine what trying to uphold the feminist cause in a country like Serbia is like! Many loud cheers to you for refusing to 'work the patriarchy'! I strongly agree that picking a single issue is the best way to go. Then you can hopefully attract a few like-minded women, and start a real campaign. Fliers can be an inexpensive way to tell people you exist, though I've had problems with them being taken down or defaced by people who disagree. The internet can be a powerful tool. We've had good luck with buying classified newspaper ad space, putting ourselves on Craigslist, and several of the different meet-up websites. There must be something like that in Serbia. Good luck! Living in a less progressive US state has taught me not to look at us as 'behind' other places (though we are), but rather to see how many more opportunities there are to enact change here.

Sorry to ramble on for so long. I'm too enthusiastic for my own good sometimes. :shy

[MittensKittens]

Who, me? Radical? :loveeyes:

Really, I'm a radical everything. I never approach issues half-way.

Me too :D. I am afraid that some of my views are even too radical for MDC :o.

Birth rights are very important to me, especially right now as I am realizing the depth of some peoples' prejudices with regard to UC. As for abortion, *Yeah, I know MDC's policy on discussing that* I strongly feel that in this country, it is not one of the rights that women have fought for, but rather, something that many women are coerced into much of the time, because of lack of economic possibilities for single moms. Abortion "rights" are well established here, and it is not something I would ever campaign for.

I haven't done much yet, I'm trying to set up a business right now so my focus has been on that. What have you folks been up to?

[Hazelnut]

Regarding abortion- Very interesting, I agree. Reading Germaine Greer's (sp? it's been a while) opinion on that years ago really shed some light on that. The choice goes both ways, and for certain demographics it is really indirectly encouraged. What is MDCs opinion, anyway? Are we not allowed to discuss it?

eta: duh, I just saw that you are in Serbia! Well I feel the same here. I am pro-choice, but I feel the same wrt single mothers here.

I'm not doing much. Just wondering how I'm going to counter all those societal messages my boys get in school. I wish we were in a crunchier neighborhood. They loved to play with girls too, play with dolls at home, along with the "boy" stuff. Since starting kindergarten it's like he's had a crash course in what is OK for boys to do and what is not. :irked:

[MittensKittens]

I'm not doing much. Just wondering how I'm going to counter all those societal messages my boys get in school. I wish we were in a crunchier neighborhood. They loved to play with girls too, play with dolls at home, along with the "boy" stuff. Since starting kindergarten it's like he's had a crash course in what is OK for boys to do and what is not. :irked:

I am already worried about that, and my kids are almost three, and four months. I want to homeschool. I am not yet even sure whether that is a legal possibility here, but if it is not, it could be a reason for me to move on to another country.

[provocativa]

Hello, another anarcho therefore socialist feminist signing in. If you google birthrape you will find why much of the conversation about birth rights doesn't move forward. It's too intense for the media.

As for starting movements, use the technology- we can now act globally as we act locally. Make a website. Use the internet locally too, like local yahoo discussion groups. At any event of like minded people, get names start an email list.

[TwinsTwicePlusTwo]

Regarding abortion- Very interesting, I agree. Reading Germaine Greer's (sp? it's been a while) opinion on that years ago really shed some light on that. The choice goes both ways, and for certain demographics it is really indirectly encouraged. What is MDCs opinion, anyway? Are we not allowed to discuss it?

eta: duh, I just saw that you are in Serbia! Well I feel the same here. I am pro-choice, but I feel the same wrt single mothers here.

I'm not doing much. Just wondering how I'm going to counter all those societal messages my boys get in school. I wish we were in a crunchier neighborhood. They loved to play with girls too, play with dolls at home, along with the "boy" stuff. Since starting kindergarten it's like he's had a crash course in what is OK for boys to do and what is not. :irked:
Ugh! This is one reason all of my boys are homeschooled. DD1 probably won't be returning next year to the private school she's attended since first grade either because she's every bit as radical as I am and it's causing her a lot of problems in her (very conservative!) school. The problems are bad enough that she's ambivalent about going back herself, even though she enjoys the classes themselves.

Abortion rights is a cause I'm involved in, because Oklahoma really has some terrible regulations and laws. It's bad enough here that one of the clinics the crisis center I volunteer at is involved with is in another state, despite the fact we're in a major metro area.

I totally agree that the choice goes both ways, though, and am involved from both ends of the issue. Home birth, abortion, adoption, I'm involved in all of it. I think these are all issues fundamental to women's rights, and don't think I could choose between them. :wink

I am already worried about that, and my kids are almost three, and four months. I want to homeschool. I am not yet even sure whether that is a legal possibility here, but if it is not, it could be a reason for me to move on to another country.
Not being allowed to homeschool would be an issue I couldn't compromise on either. :( As much as I love where I live, I would have to leave if I couldn't homeschool. Luckily homeschooling is one of the things Oklahoma has right--our right to homeschool is protected under our state constitution. I don't even have to keep up any paperwork. :thumb

provocativa, I love your user-name! I wasn't feeling very creative when I joined MDC, obviously. :eyesroll

[MittensKittens]

Abortion rights is a cause I'm involved in, because Oklahoma really has some terrible regulations and laws. It's bad enough here that one of the clinics the crisis center I volunteer at is involved with is in another state, despite the fact we're in a major metro area.

I totally agree that the choice goes both ways, though, and am involved from both ends of the issue. Home birth, abortion, adoption, I'm involved in all of it. I think these are all issues fundamental to women's rights, and don't think I could choose between them. :wink

I feel all guilty about having been so lazy the last few years now. It has been three years since I was involved in any organized activism no, and it is time to change that!

[suzywan]

:hola: Laziest red-fem, also dabbling in eco-fem, on the planet, reporting....

My activism consists of writing checks, but as we have seen throughout history, for better or worse, the hand that writes the checks rules the world. I would like to see that system dismantled, but can't forsee how that could be done any time in the near future.

[noordinaryspider]

:wave

I think I can be a bit lazier-than-thou, but i was also thrown for a loop when my long-awaited donor conceived Persephone Siobhan had to have her name changed at birth because of an unexpected penis, which rules out my separatist fantasies, and I was also involved in that whole Encyclopedia Dramatica thing (I am NOT Biting Beaver, but I don't think she did anything wrong) and I was kind of a bumbling idiot because I didn't understand what was going on.

Anyway, i've already been forgiven by the people who matter to me, have fallen madly in love with my son, Terran-Sage Revolution, who is now fifteen months old, and am ready to get on with life.

[noordinaryspider]

As for abortion, *Yeah, I know MDC's policy on discussing that* I strongly feel that in this country, it is not one of the rights that women have fought for, but rather, something that many women are coerced into much of the time, because of lack of economic possibilities for single moms.

Because of MDC's policy and some hurt that was caused by the inevitable misunderstandings, I took my Phoebe Rose's pink angel out of my siggie, but yea, ITA, have personal experience, and would find it very healing to talk to you at that other place.

I'm in the US and never expected to find another UCing Single Mom by Choice even online. If you're old too, I think I'm going to fall out of my chair in shock.

[MittensKittens]

Because of MDC's policy and some hurt that was caused by the inevitable misunderstandings, I took my Phoebe Rose's pink angel out of my siggie, but yea, ITA, have personal experience, and would find it very healing to talk to you at that other place.

I'm in the US and never expected to find another UCing Single Mom by Choice even online. If you're old too, I think I'm going to fall out of my chair in shock.

Noordinaryspider, nice to "meet" you . Did you have another username before? I am asking because I have come across someone else with your son's name (don't know about the middle name) before, also an SMC. If you are not her, now THAT would be a coincidence.

Living abroad can be liberating too. I am Dutch/American, and people tend to see me as "that crazy foreigner". Just raising my kids and being a solo mom could be considered activism, actually. That would be a bit lazy, though :D.

And about the unexpected penis, I am wondering what other mamas' views and experiences are with regard to raising sons? What are the issues that you come up against, and how do you solve them? Mine is only little, but already people offer up expectations for his future.

[ursusarctos]

Woohoo! I think I have found my tribe! Hello everybody! I love radical feminism because imo it's pretty much the only one that questions the whole system instead of trying to integrate women into it. If I had to choose I would call myself ecofeminist though as far as activism goes mine is limited to arguing with my friends and choosing my purchases carefully :o (I buy organic, local and seasonal as much as possible and try not to buy much anything else :lol).
I am in Finland and the feminism here, while prevalent and "accepted" by the state, is very much focused on getting women into the job market with equal wages, as if that means women would be equal. There is little to no focus on the underlying social structures that devalue birth choices, parenting, focusing on being a human being instead of being a cog in the consumer machine, etc.

I'm a feminist b/c I love being a woman and I think I deserve the opportunity to express that however I wish to do so. I'm a human and I have rights.

My "be more like a man" isn't about doing things that have traditionally been "male fields" but more about behaving like a cog in the patriarchy machine. I keep trying to find uninsulting language for these concepts, but I'm not sure this is the time for that. I really think this is the time for bluntness and unrepentant honesty.

I think the time is ripe for a social overhaul, but I feel like I'm not sure how to participate in it/get it going. I'm not Ralph Nader! :lol

This!

Hi, PiePie! I agree that focusing on the family is a political act. How could it not be in this day and age?

Yes! This is why I often find conservative patriarchal movements such as quiverfull to be almost more feminist than the "feminists" sometimes!


I've read books by mommy feminists and I came away feeling like those women had a lot more privilege than your "average" woman and due to that, their perspectives were quite superficial. I certainly agree that there is not a movement. That is something I'd like to see change in feminist circles.

Maybe we can discuss that here?

I agree. I do have issues myself with feeling superficial though as I myself am very privileged in the grand scheme of things (just another middle-class white college-educated heterosexually-partnered woman here). I know that feminism is not about having a "who's the least privileged" contest, but I can't help questioning whether or not I am focusing on the "really important" things.

Likewise, very socially oriented.

Do you folks have any wisdom to share with me? I have been active in existing movements before, but never set one up from scratch - that's something totally different. Any of you know about the logistics of this? I have been brainstorming over a non-governmental org to empower women on birth options, that is, to open up non-existing options to them, and to educate. Where I am, this seems to be one of the most pressing issues. Obviously, I'd need funding etc. Any ideas?

Find like-minded women through the internet and start meeting? There must be at least a couple other women in Serbia who are similarly disillusioned with the birthing environment. In Finland there is a total of ONE organization that is pro-natural-birth-and-birthplace-choice and I believe it was started by a small group of concerned women. They produce a quarterly magazine that you get by paying a small membership fee. It was very small when it started in the 80s but has been growing consistently since then. Finland is a very small country population-wise and very unquestioning of "the establishment" but there are still enough alternative-minded people to be found - Serbia has more people, there must be some chance of finding other people with your feelings?

I can't say I have any advice, but I think this is a great idea. I was really struck during my pregnancy how the issue of birth options is NOT part of the feminist agenda. Reproductive choice is a huge issue for me, and it should include protecting our choices in the way we deliver. An OB can represent the patriarchy just as well as a politician, IMO.

As far as my personal feminist philosophy, my mom was a feminist writer and came from what I think of as an old school of feminism. She really focused on childcare, the pro-choice movement, protection of victims of domestic violence, and equal pay for equal work (those things still being crucially important, of course). I feel more like feminism now is a part of human rights in general, and is tied to basic human needs like clean water, reducing hunger, and environmental protection. We need to address all these issues to truly empower women around the world.

Yes, yes, yes! I have been reading Vandana Shiva and the rights of the world's women are SO tied up with the exploitation of 3rd world countries. And I think it is the same underlying system/mentality that justifies the patriarchalness of western birth options and the plundering of the 3rd world.


There is so much to be done here when it just comes to basic respect for women. It is difficult to know where to even start.

I can totally see why you feel that way based on everything I have heard about Eastern Europe. It will be really interesting to hear about your experiences if you start some sort of organization or movement! You must feel something like how feminists felt in the states in the 50s...


IMO, the feminist movement has seriously dropped the ball on our birth rights.

Oh yes. That's the case here too. If the Nordic feminist movement was ever even holding that ball :eyesroll I don't think radical feminism ever really made it here. And I think it is too system-questioning to be listened to seriously over here - Finns do love working with their systems and very few actually question the status quo. Perhaps part of that is that on the surface everything is so good here. For example with birth rights - most births are attended by midwives in the hospital, and the rate of interventions and c-sections is far lower than in the states (though increasing all the time :eyesroll). There is less of a crying need to change things than in the states or in eastern europe, so it is harder to get people really mad about how it is virtually impossible to choose a homebirth here.

Me too :D. I am afraid that some of my views are even too radical for MDC :o.

Birth rights are very important to me, especially right now as I am realizing the depth of some peoples' prejudices with regard to UC. As for abortion, *Yeah, I know MDC's policy on discussing that* I strongly feel that in this country, it is not one of the rights that women have fought for, but rather, something that many women are coerced into much of the time, because of lack of economic possibilities for single moms. Abortion "rights" are well established here, and it is not something I would ever campaign for.


:nod I think that, despite the attack from the right, women in the states too are often forced into abortion due to lack of options for single mothers. I came across this site a while back - Feminists for Life (http://www.feministsforlife.org/). Not sure how religious they are or aren't, but I like their premise: "women deserve better than abortion". I think they focus on the need for better social resources for young mothers so they actually have a CHOICE about having an abortion. I haven't read through the entire website though so please don't get mad at me if there's something there you don't like - chances are I wouldn't like it either. And it's not my website anyway :innocent I just thought it was an interesting example of feminists who noticed that the be-all and end-all of reproductive rights is not just access to abortion services.
Here I have no quarrel with the abortion resources/pressure. It is certainly possible for a young single mother to survive quite well due to the welfare state, and abortion is legal, cheap or free, and easily accessible until the end of the 3rd month. This makes for the real possibility of choice about whether or not to keep one's pregnancy and less of horrific late term abortions. Public opinion takes these services for granted. So the main problem here is the birth rights. It doesn't help that everyone is convinced that birth is a horrible emergency and that every time a mother accidentally gives birth outside the hospital that it's a huge miracle that both mother and baby survived :eyesroll
Anyway, looooooong post, sorry! Looking forward to following this thread.

[greenmamapagan]

For ursusarctos
A new site by a Finnish homebirther. I don't speak or read Finnish so I have no idea how feminist it is but I know she's pretty passionate about natural birth so I thought you would find it interesting :)
http://www.bebesinfo.fi/

[A&A]

Here's an essay about intactivism being a feminist act:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

[ursusarctos]

Greenmamapagan, thank you for the site! I am exploring it now. While it doesn't say much about homebirth, it does have a lot to say about how to get a natural birth in the hospital and what "natural birth" is, which is great! I love the internet! :love The pictures provided of the rooms in the two birth centers I know of also made me realize that they are not a real option for me and that homebirth for future babies is definitely going to be my goal. Btw, they are trying to close down one of those birth centers (again) right now :eyesroll due to "lack of funding". As if it were cheaper to have a highly medicalized birth. Not that that's where the state should be cutting their budget anyway! Sigh...
I'm curious though, do you personally know the Finnish homebirther who set up the site? Because we are ttc right now and so far my search for a hb midwife has been fruitless. I would be really interested to know how she found a hb midwife.
A&A, that is an interesting article, thank you.

[greenmamapagan]

I'm curious though, do you personally know the Finnish homebirther who set up the site? Because we are ttc right now and so far my search for a hb midwife has been fruitless. I would be really interested to know how she found a hb midwife.

No, I don't know her personally. She is on a local attachment parenting list I'm on. I know she's back in Finland now and that her last bub was born there, I'm not sure but she may have had her fist homebirth when she was living here (Australia). Perhaps if you contacted her she would try to help you find a mw.
How frustrating about the birth centre :angry

[MittensKittens]

Talking about pictures on the internet, I thought I might share this (http://www.majkahrabrost.com/fotoNFWC1997.htm). These are pictures from Serbia's most "prestigious" L&D hospital. The website is there for women to share their horror stories. I don't think they are doing much to change the conditions though )some half-hearted attempts), and they are not interested in homebirth.

Isn't it funny how you run into the same people all the time on MDC? Lots of UC-ers on this thread - do you think it is a coincidence?

Greenmamapagan, thank you for the site! I am exploring it now. While it doesn't say much about homebirth, it does have a lot to say about how to get a natural birth in the hospital and what "natural birth" is, which is great! I love the internet! :love The pictures provided of the rooms in the two birth centers I know of also made me realize that they are not a real option for me and that homebirth for future babies is definitely going to be my goal. Btw, they are trying to close down one of those birth centers (again) right now :eyesroll due to "lack of funding". As if it were cheaper to have a highly medicalized birth. Not that that's where the state should be cutting their budget anyway! Sigh...
I'm curious though, do you personally know the Finnish homebirther who set up the site? Because we are ttc right now and so far my search for a hb midwife has been fruitless. I would be really interested to know how she found a hb midwife.
A&A, that is an interesting article, thank you.

[ursusarctos]

No, I don't know her personally. She is on a local attachment parenting list I'm on. I know she's back in Finland now and that her last bub was born there, I'm not sure but she may have had her fist homebirth when she was living here (Australia). Perhaps if you contacted her she would try to help you find a mw.
How frustrating about the birth centre :angry

Ok, thanks, I will probably try to contact her. I realized from the website actually that I was directed to the same place by a Finnish MDC member recently... I think it's time to go check it out.
Yeah, I have been stewing about the birth center (actually it's just a small local hospital specializing in natural birth but it's the closest thing Finland has to a birth center) all day :irked: I really hope they don't shut it down... People come there all the way from Russia (probably because birth conditions there are similar to Serbia's I would think).

Talking about pictures on the internet, I thought I might share this (http://www.majkahrabrost.com/fotoNFWC1997.htm). These are pictures from Serbia's most "prestigious" L&D hospital. The website is there for women to share their horror stories. I don't think they are doing much to change the conditions though )some half-hearted attempts), and they are not interested in homebirth.

Isn't it funny how you run into the same people all the time on MDC? Lots of UC-ers on this thread - do you think it is a coincidence?

Oh my goodness, MittensKittens. Those pictures are... harrowing :( The place is a dump - does this send the message that women/their reproductive functions are garbage, much? :gloomy: Are people really not willing to work towards change even with sites like these where obviously a decent number of women had terrible experiences and are publicly complaining about them? Could you contact the person who started that site and see if she would be interested in putting up some sort of notice of a meeting or something on her site? See if you could get a few women together who have had enough? (I'm only asking these things in the context of you asking for ideas about activism... probably you have already thought of these though!)
I do not think it is a coincidence at all :thumb Since radical feminism involves questioning the whole system altogether, I think it makes perfect sense... Not that you have to UC to really "get it", not at all, but I think when you get into rad. fem. enough you are seriously going to question routine hospital birth.

[honeybee]

Hello! I just found this thread and am reading with interest. I don't know if I qualify as a "radical" feminist, but I am definitely a feminist. But I agree that we need a new "face" to feminism. I read an article in my mother's More magazine, bemoaning how the younger generation (meaning us) has "dropped the ball" and use statistics about the growing number of educated, professional women dropping out of the workforce to stay home with their children as an example of that. I can't tell you how much that gets my goat! :angry

Anyways, I totally agree with you all on how feminism has totally passed over the birthing rights issues. I am just getting started in activism. I'm president of a non-profit friends group trying to support midwifery and eventually be part of a movement in our state to license CPMs. I am finding this very difficult right now. I have so many things I want to do with this organization, but I am so exhausted and overwhelmed just trying to take care of my 3 children. They are so young right now... but now is the time things are happening here, and honestly, if I don't do this I don't know who will. The Board of our Friends group has changed over a few times already, and we just had another member who had to step down due to health reasons and nobody has yet to fill that place. So, I am trying, even though I feel like I'm only doing a half-a** job of it.

So, yah, I'm having a hard time figuring out that balance between mothering and outside "work" -even unpaid, volunteer work. I've also done some WAH in the past, but not for about a year. I'm finding it difficult.

As a young adult, I did a lot of reading about issues surrounding girls and women, especially as it related to my field, education. I learned about sexism in schools and the gender gap, etc. Then I had my first child... a boy. Then I had two more boys. At first, I was concerned with making sure my boys would grow up to be sensitive men who would be full partners to their wives. I still am concerned about that. BUT, I have also done a lot more research and have come to understand how our gender stereotypes and expectations are also so harmful to boys and men. Now I am primarily concerned with how to protect my boys in this world. I want to protect them from the aggression and dominance images that saturate our media. I want to protect their emotional integrity so they don't feel they have to cut off a part of themselves in order to fit in with society's image of a "tough guy." Yet, I still want to honor the boyish parts of them... the tendency to want to compete, a need for rambunctious play and a lot of movement, their concern about fair play, etc. And now I am pretty annoyed at how little attention is made to the needs of boys in our schools... the gender gap goes both ways, and boys are being shortchanged in many ways.

Anyways, I find myself in a strange dichotomy. My friends from high school (who I am becoming reacquainted with through facebook of all things!) are primarily professional women who are politically active and identify themselves as feminists--yet do not seem to question the status quo/mainstream in regards to rearing children. My friends here in town are wonderfully crunchy, but most are pretty conservative and seem hesitant to identify themselves as feminists.

I am also wondering what will happen once all my kids are all school age. I still have this idea that I should have a "career" and I really do want some time to pursue outside interests in some form. But, I am becoming more open to the idea of SAH while my kids are in school. I would like to pursue activism and creative endeavors (would really like to write that book I've been wanting to write!)... but then I wonder if it is fair to expect my husband to carry the financial burden of supporting our family for so long. Doesn't he deserve to pursue activism and creative endeavors, too?

And then I wonder what kind of example I'm setting for my boys, since I am finding myself in a "traditional" gender role. But, then, they do see their dad cooking dinner and cleaning the house and caring for babies, too, so we are not completely traditional. I do feel a bit guilty when something needs to be fixed, and I say "wait for Dad to get home." :o I feel like I'm not holding up my end of the bargain... but unlike my own mother I'm actually not very good at mechanical/fixing things and don't really like to do it.

In general, I'm just struggling with what it means to be a feminist stay at home mom.

And that saga turned out a lot longer than I meant it to be... I have been thinking about theses issues for quite a while.

[katmann]

Birth rights are very important to me, especially right now as I am realizing the depth of some peoples' prejudices with regard to UC. As for abortion, *Yeah, I know MDC's policy on discussing that* I strongly feel that in this country, it is not one of the rights that women have fought for, but rather, something that many women are coerced into much of the time, because of lack of economic possibilities for single moms. Abortion "rights" are well established here, and it is not something I would ever campaign for.


But I think that's why women's rights are so tied to other social issues. Like in the US, if we had affordable healthcare and paid leave from work (and paid leave for our partners), abortion would be less of an issue. Now it's women over 30 who are having more abortions, often because they can't afford another child. So I think feminism is tightly tied to socialism. That's one of the reasons I can't call myself ONLY a feminist, although abortion rights have always been a major issue for me. I'm really more of a socialist in general because I think socialist policies tend to benefit women more than capitalist policies (not that the two are mutually exclusive - they just tend to be in the US).

[ursusarctos]

And then I wonder what kind of example I'm setting for my boys, since I am finding myself in a "traditional" gender role. But, then, they do see their dad cooking dinner and cleaning the house and caring for babies, too, so we are not completely traditional. I do feel a bit guilty when something needs to be fixed, and I say "wait for Dad to get home." :o I feel like I'm not holding up my end of the bargain... but unlike my own mother I'm actually not very good at mechanical/fixing things and don't really like to do it.

In general, I'm just struggling with what it means to be a feminist stay at home mom.

And that saga turned out a lot longer than I meant it to be... I have been thinking about theses issues for quite a while.

Hi honeybee! I agree that boys are shortchanged in this society as well... feminism is so not just about women! It's about changing the relationship between the sexes to be less rigid and oppressive for everyone.
I don't think you should feel guilty! If you're not good at a coincidentally traditionally male skill that doesn't mean you don't provide a different contribution that's just as important. Perhaps you do more housework than your husband, for example. The main thing I think is that all kinds of work and contribution to the family are seen as valuable, including cooking, cleaning, fixing stuff, earning wages, etc. etc. because traditionally "men's work" has been seen as more valuable, important and fun than "women's work" and I think that's half the problem right there.

But I think that's why women's rights are so tied to other social issues. Like in the US, if we had affordable healthcare and paid leave from work (and paid leave for our partners), abortion would be less of an issue. Now it's women over 30 who are having more abortions, often because they can't afford another child. So I think feminism is tightly tied to socialism. That's one of the reasons I can't call myself ONLY a feminist, although abortion rights have always been a major issue for me. I'm really more of a socialist in general because I think socialist policies tend to benefit women more than capitalist policies (not that the two are mutually exclusive - they just tend to be in the US).

I think you are right to a large extent. Here in Finland they have a much more socialist system than in the states and it has been a major contributor to gender equality - at least in the public sphere. It is much easier to have a career and also a family here due to paid maternal and paternal leave, public childcare, public healthcare, public assistance, a "child bonus" from the government, single mothers are not officially stigmatized, etc. etc. HOWEVER, women still do most of the housework and cooking even if they work 9-5, which they are expected to do much more here than in the states. The structures are in place to help women live a life "equal to" (which here is interpreted as "the same as") a man's life, but the attitudes and expectations of gender roles in private life have not changed all that much. For example, women here still know how to see dirt, whereas men don't, and so women clean because men don't know it's time to clean. I'm sure this is a "training" issue because I have taught my DP to "see" dirt slowly over the past few years, and I know I was taught to see it more than my brother ever was - because my mom just assumed that men naturally don't know how! And I think this is a very prevalent issue. Men just aren't taught to care, or that they should care, and by the time this becomes an issue in a private relationship women are already 10 times faster and better at caretaking than men due to years of practice so they just do it rather than forcing the men to learn how. I notice this in my dealings with DP - it's much easier to just wipe up the counter after him than to teach him how to do it thoroughly, or cook the sauce myself rather than letting him learn the most efficient way to do it through experience as I have.
So while more socialist policies definitely help, there isn't going to be true equality in any system until the underlying expectations people have of gender roles change.
Also, while I do believe that it is extremely important for women to have the same opportunites to interact in public life as men have, I think that funnelling all women into the rat race with men (as has been the focus of feminism in Finland) is not going to help anyone be happier in the end. What really needs to change is the culture of wage earning being the superior activity to non-paid activities such as parenting, housekeeping, volunteering, etc. Of course, one could definitely blame capitalism for that too... Sigh, it's all so complicated.

[ursusarctos]

Oh, I wanted to ask everyone: how "out" are you as a feminist? I am not terribly much - I don't call myself a feminist, for one thing. I don't stint to argue with people about the safety of homebirth or to point out that one rape affects all women, but I don't generally use the word "patriarchy" to explain why births are centered in hospitals, or anything else for that matter... Probably only my DP really knows the extent of my beliefs.
I am starting to care less and less what my friends know about my ideas though (my facebook is full of feminist quotes :innocent). Perhaps part of what's holding me back about becoming more outspoken is that, while I find it easy to point out what's wrong, I don't really have a theory about what would make things better. One thing I believe is that politics won't change anything - call me cynical, but I believe power is always going to be in the hands of the rich and well-connected no matter what kind of system or laws you have. I think the way things change is through grassroots efforts - but I don't know what kind of effort to make, where to focus myself, or even how. I also feel that I don't know enough about the world to formulate a theory of how things should operate - but then I look around and I see that many people in power have even less insight into things than I do! :nut

[calpurnia]

i have lots to say to this thread but no time! i will be back!

just wanted to post a link to this article - you can never have too many mothers (http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/05/11/mothers_others/index.html) which i thought was interesting

What I'm saying is that human mothers are unusual in how much support they need. I'm also trying to expand the concept of what children need to include other people as well as mothers. Mothers need a lot of social support, and having more than one caretaker is very, very useful.

[ursusarctos]

Ok, I'm posting yet again :o I'm really not trying to hijack this thread, I'm just at work and procrastinating :innocent

i have lots to say to this thread but no time! i will be back!

just wanted to post a link to this article - you can never have too many mothers (http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/05/11/mothers_others/index.html) which i thought was interesting

Calpurnia, that article was very interesting, I think I will have to check out some of this woman's books - have you read any of them, out of curiosity?
Her theory sounds right to me. Most societies, including ours until a hundred years ago, operate/d on an extended family/small community basis, with lots of alloparents to go around.
It would make sense that we, who have evolved for an alloparent context, would have trouble in a system that confines caretaking to one person.
I also think it's interesting in the implications for daycare. It doesn't seem to be a bad thing for a child to not be raised 24/7 by its mother, but the average daycare attendant is not at all the same as the grandmother or aunt or sibling of the child in terms of providing loving, emotionally meaningful, and caring support and social interaction. The difference between modern alloparenting substitutes and the traditional alloparenting context is that childcare was historically provided by people who had a vested interest in the child and its survival, not strangers.

[noordinaryspider]

Just a quick check-in because the hijacking of Mother's Peace Day by the advertising industry hit me like a ton of bricks yesterday and i'm still bawling and wanting to singlehandedly turn it into a National Day of Mourning the way the native american movement has been able to do for thanksgiving.

Never mind, just United Statesian stuff.

MittensKittens, I think it's yet another coincidence! I posted as Anonymon in the feminist blogosphere, but I think the ddos attacks on the people I can't mention because of MDC's UA during the incident I can't mention because of MDC's UA happened long before Terran's birth and i've been kind of hiding out since then. There is another Anonymom (which i didn't know when i began posting under that username) who i fear might have borne the brunt of attacks intended for me.

Anyway, the whole encyclopedia dramatica incident was very dramatic and relatively peripheral to this discussion. I'm a baby Radfem who is pretty devoted to my mentors, who are controversial figures in the blogosphere. I am open to having my ideas and perceptions challenged, but not to ad hominems on two fairly well known Radfems who have been there for me during some very difficult periods of my life and I have never posted under the name "Biting Beaver".

Honeybee, i am so thrilled to have someone else to talk to about Boys Rights! As i said during my pregnancy, i wish Terran's gender were not so important, but it did determine the direction my own life is going to take over the next 20 years or so. I have an older son, who i feel that i have failed miserably, and i need to get excited about the challenges that lay ahead of Terran and I and become more confident in my own ability to deal with them.

THIS son shall not be taken from us to unlearn all that we have been able to teach
him of charity, mercy and patience.

[MujerMamaMismo]

nak with lots to say but probably not enough time to say it...

But I think that's why women's rights are so tied to other social issues. Like in the US, if we had affordable healthcare and paid leave from work (and paid leave for our partners), abortion would be less of an issue. Now it's women over 30 who are having more abortions, often because they can't afford another child. So I think feminism is tightly tied to socialism.
Exactly. It's my opinion that capitalism is bad for everyone but as you run through a checklist of disadvantage and oppression it blows my mind that women, that's half the population(!!!), do so freakin' poorly in all aspects. Of course, class and race pull up pretty poorly too and we can't forget that.

Oh, I wanted to ask everyone: how "out" are you as a feminist?
Very out. Though less so with my newer mama friends. I do try pretty hard to sneak a bit of consciousness raising into my mothers groups though. But in general it's hard for me to be 'in' given my personal and professional history.

Just a quick check-in because the hijacking of Mother's Peace Day by the advertising industry hit me like a ton of bricks yesterday and i'm still bawling and wanting to singlehandedly turn it into a National Day of Mourning the way the native american movement has been able to do for thanksgiving.

THIS son shall not be taken from us to unlearn all that we have been able to teach
him of charity, mercy and patience.

I know what you mean re Mothers Day - can you imagine if mothers rallied in the streets instead of the stores? We might actually have a chance at a real, large and meaningful womens movement.

I also wanted to say something about the sentiment that you failed your older son. You didn't! Society may have, but you are not solely responsible for the social education and upbringing of your kids, no one is. We don't live in a vacuum and we're all products of something much bigger than our parents and upbringing.

more t say but have a fidget midget on my lap and should pay him some attention before he loses the plot!

[MittensKittens]

Is this thread dying a slow death, or are you all out campaigning? I do hope it's the latter!

[calpurnia]

i'm revising for finals! i shouldn't be here at all.

quick question: what do you do when people say things like "you can have the pink one, because you're a girl!", or "look at her kicking! she's going to be a ballet dancer!" (or, blue = boy, kicking = footballer). do you nod & smile, or do you interject the other option? dd is only 11 months & we are getting SO MUCH of this from people we see a lot - friends, mothers in law etc... i don't know how much to let slide & how much to challenge.

[MittensKittens]

i'm revising for finals! i shouldn't be here at all.

quick question: what do you do when people say things like "you can have the pink one, because you're a girl!", or "look at her kicking! she's going to be a ballet dancer!" (or, blue = boy, kicking = footballer). do you nod & smile, or do you interject the other option? dd is only 11 months & we are getting SO MUCH of this from people we see a lot - friends, mothers in law etc... i don't know how much to let slide & how much to challenge.

I hate that. It happens all the time in various forms. When DD was younger people frequently called her "him" because I am a bit resistant to pink. Depending on who makes the comment, I either explain my views, make a rude comments, or just ignore it.

Another question for you all - on the "case against circumcision" board, I frequently read comments about how society protects our daughters, but is biased against our sons. It talks about institutional bias against men. While I am anti-circ, the way in which these comments are formulated rub me the wrong way. What are your opinions?

[MittensKittens]

And any good links on feminists raising boys?

[MujerMamaMismo]

As the mother of an intact son, I am definitely not concerned with the institutional/systemic oppression of men. It's a simplistic argument to even try and assert that routine male circumcision is oppressive, just as it's simplistic to assert that female circumcision is oppressive. In my view, female circumcision is one of the many tools used by the system/patriarchy/whoever you believe to be responsible, that contributes to and maintains the oppression of women and girls. It is simply not the same for males. Cruel and unnecessary, yes. Systemically oppressive, no.

And on the gendering of our kids...it drives me 'round the twist. DP's mother has recently picked up on my flippant comment that I don't want DP's racing car driver brother anywhere near DS once he's old enough to understand - I said it in jest because racing cars scare the sh*t out of me and I don't want DS to die. Simple concept, but a joke nonetheless. DP's mother will not let it go and has gotten into such a flap about it. She's suddenly all morally panicked that DS is being raised by 2 women who clearly are bringing him up to be a girl??!!!? Now, every time we see her she talks about what a great football player he's going to be and how he needs to get some football socks or that his uncles need to take him to the football this year. Um, he's 5 months old. I really don't think any babe, boy or girl needs to go to the football that young. I also make the point, regularly, that I am thrilled for DS to have a million interesting things in his life, his uncles and football included, if he so chooses, but that my biggest priority is giving him the tools to decide and express whoever and whatever he wants to be. Still, she's determined to buy him a tonka truck for his 1st birthday. Anyway, that's my massive gripe about her. My step-mum also recently said to him 'look bubby, there's a truck, that's a BOY thing.' I almost lost the plot over that. This is one hard battle to have.

I have to admit though, I do get some pleasure when people mistake him for a girl. I don't dress him in blue (or pink) ever so there are a few folks that we see around the neighbourhood who are a bit unsure. I love it! I never correct people when they get his sex wrong either. It's so unimportant, it's not worth the breath. When he's old enough to express gender then, with feminist sensibilities in mind, I'll be open to helping him do so in whatever fashion he desires.

[MujerMamaMismo]

And any good links on feminists raising boys?
Someone needs to write a really good book on this. I can't find much that grabs me.

[calpurnia]

i don't have a boy, & i haven't read this book for years, but i remember enjoying "the trouble with boys" by angela phillips. she also wrote the first "our bodies ourselves" edition for the UK. so not a ringing endorsement but a tentative one!

mujermamamismo:

[Quote=]In my view, female circumcision is one of the many tools used by the system/patriarchy/whoever you believe to be responsible, that contributes to and maintains the oppression of women and girls. It is simply not the same for males. Cruel and unnecessary, yes. Systemically oppressive, no. completely agree with you./]

i completely agree with you.

damn more to say but nap over!

[MittensKittens]

Glad I'm not the only one with that view on the circ issue.

I'm gonna get my act together very soon one of these days and actually do something! If I don't work to make this society more woman friendly, I will go crazy! Does it seem to any of you that women with children are so much less respected as well?

[ursusarctos]

Does it seem to any of you that women with children are so much less respected as well?

Actually I'm not sure about that. I wanted to agree at first, but actually I think that young single women without children are even less respected. In patriarchal society, if a woman is not defined by someone else (her husband, her father, her children) she does not have an identity. A woman who is not a wife, a daughter, a mother, a widow, or a nun is not categorizable in her own right, because she does not have a role. A woman without a "role", especially a young one, is a non-entity, not lableable, and therefore it is not necessary to treat her with respect. She's assumed to be waiting to acquire a "real" role (being a woman is not enough alone). At least a mother is not assumed to be a weak mindless sex object in quite the same way (no, mothers get to be madonnas! woohoo! :wink).
Though I'm not a mother so I can't say with much authority, I'm just pointing out what I've observed. I do agree that single mothers (particularly young ones) are not respected - perhaps in different ways? I mean, on the one hand a woman gets a certain amount of "weight" as a mother that she does not have as simply a woman, but on the other hand if she's single she's not going about motherhood in the "right" way so there's obviously a lot of judgement about that, spoken or not. And if she's young she'll get the BS and patronizing/ignoring that is given to young women anyway. So yeah actually, I don't know. What is "not being respected"? Being actively disrespected or just being ignored and trivialized? Both I guess. Sigh.
So I guess that didn't really answer anything at all :lol I guess I feel like young women are the least respected members of society regardless of circumstances, and some things can make it worse, like being single or being a mother (and we all know how much society respects and looks out for mothers, regardless of ideals about motherhood :eyesroll).

[MittensKittens]

About single mothers in particular, I see this attitude all the time, even here: "all single mothers are saints" is a quote from a post I saw here a while back. A neighbor told me last week "you are a hero", simply because I am a single mom. What does that mean? Apparently, women who go about raising kids WITHOUT a man carry a terrible cross on their back, and simply going on with life is a great achievement. I find this terribly annoying, because it reaches the very essence of patriarchy, without people even realizing. Single mothers with sons must be even worse.

Hazelnut, you have a very good point about motherhood getting approval, but not respect.

[almadianna]

Hello ladies!

As a staunch feminist I am glad that there is such a large population of feminists here on MDC.

I want to remind us all here that we cannot host negative posts about other threads here on MDC or other threads. I understand that there are things and beliefs that we may not all agree with and that is ok. We dont have to.

However, we do have to be respectful of those beliefs.

Please also remember that we do not host discussions about abortion on the boards.

I truly hope that this thread can stay active but please remember the User Agreement.

[calpurnia]

thanks alma.

i think i get a bit less respect (although respect is not quite the right word) for being a mother, but that is partly because i am young (not that young - 25 - but very young for my demographic of educated white middle class english girls) to be having babies. but i don't think if i were in my 30s i would be respected, i just would have conformed to the norm.

i've been thinking recently about how difficult people find it to acknowledge that mothers can have negative feelings about being parents. recently-ish, in the uk, a book came out in which a mother said quite openly that she had lost a lot of things in having her son, & there was an outcry. outraged people saying she was an unfit mother etc. what's that about? overhang from the angel in the house syndrome?

& the circ issue - granted i don't live in a circing country (my dad was circed, which was routine in his country, & my brothers weren't circed - it was never presented as an issue, just that it had been fashionable but wasn't necessary really) so really don't have a strong emotional reaction to the topic, but i also really struggle to see it as comparable to female genital cutting - which, i just looked up, gives an increased risk of infant death in childbirth of 15% - 55%, depending on the "type" & is directly responsible for the deaths of around 10,000 - 20,000 babies a year in africa... just want to repeat, in case anyone gets upset, that i am totally anti routine male circumcision. that's not what i'm debating, just whether it really can be compared to female circumcision in terms of "institutional bias" &, dare i say it, severity.

[MittensKittens]

OK, let's see if we can find something else to talk about :D. What are the little, everyday examples of misogyny that you find most annoying? And what do you do to stop them there and then?

[boigrrrlwonder]

I think that young mothers, regardless of whether they are single or not, get a lot of crap. I became pregnant at 19 and am 22 now - not really a young mother. But young enough that motherhood made others' estimation of me drop (since they decided that I must have gotten pregnant because I was irresponsible or too stupid to know to use birth control and then selfish for wanting to parent). I've been partnered for six years.

And that's another thing about youngish parenthood. Experiencing the difference between being a young mother versus seeing my partner parent as a young father. We are the same age. While my partner is a WONDERFUL father now, it took him longer to adjust to parenthood. And for a long time I was a full-time student while he worked part-time at a job (my parents supported us), and he did almost no childcare, housework, etc... And random strangers would see that he didn't dump my ass for being pregnant and praise him for sticking around - making it evident that they thought he was a good parent simply for sticking around or "taking responsibility" as they would say. No one praised me for "taking responsibility," because they already thought I was irresponsible for becoming a parent in the first place. They didn't think I was a good parent simply for having deciding to have any level of involvement in my child's life. But it was true for my partner.

And that right there is misogyny. That sticking around makes a good father but the standards are much much higher for a young mother. That there's this idea in this culture that as soon as a younger woman becomes pregnant she's trash and it takes a remarkable man to stick with her.

Okay, :soapbox over.

[MittensKittens]

ITA. The idea that your partner is a 'saint" for sticking with you if you are "stupid enough" to become pregnant at a young age is utterly repulsive and very insulting. I am sorry you are having to deal with that prejudice.

Something I have come across quite a bit is how lots of people in a business or political context will call women by their first name, while men attending the same meeting have somehow automatically acquired the right to be referred to as Mr So and So. Perhaps this is a minor point, but I find it very downgrading.

[Hazelnut]

I agree with this, both wrt to the circ issue and everything really. I am mostly discussing feminism or gender issues or even raising kids online rather than with irl acquaintances and friends, and in those communities this is an viewpoint I see a lot. I have three sons and gender roles and stereotypes do concern me, but I do not think that boys are at a disadvantage more than girls, and indeed I think they have less to fear and less discrimination to face. It shocks me actually, the hostility with which feminism is treated by some mothers. I think they really think it is an attack on boys and men, which I think is unfortunate.

As the mother of an intact son, I am definitely not concerned with the institutional/systemic oppression of men. It's a simplistic argument to even try and assert that routine male circum.

[Hazelnut]

What does that mean? Apparently, women who go about raising kids WITHOUT a man carry a terrible cross on their back, and simply going on with life is a great achievement. I find this terribly annoying, because it reaches the very essence of patriarchy, without people even realizing. Single mothers with sons must be even worse.
t.


This is such an interesting and enlightening point to me. I had never thought of it that way. Frankly, I am usually in awe of single mothers, :bag: simply b/c I always thought it would be so difficult to be the only adult responsible for them or bringing in income, and yet they are successful. I don't run around saying that b/c I did imagine it would be repetitive and annoying :o . Although there are times when I think it might even be easier. My spouse is always parenting when home, but there are so many other areas of household responsibility where it is sometimes all me and I just think, wouldn't this be easier if I only had myself to consider? I recall another feminist mother telling me it was so much easier when she was single, b/c she didn't have to "take care" of her spouse or clear anything with him.

I've been curious if the disrespect young and/or single mothers get has let up at all in recent years in the U.S. I'm guessing not.

[MittensKittens]

I agree it is often easier parenting solo. When I hear women talk about their husbands, it is often like they have another, very obnoxious, child. I guess that might be offensive to some - not meant like that :hide:.

[1littlebit]

:wave

i don't know if i am radical per se.. in fact i didn't know some of my little peeves were feminist issues until this thread. :lol

i got pg at 19 i will be 22 in a couple weeks. one of the things that still boggles my mind is that no one expect DP to stick around when i got pg. people talk about how amazing it is that he has stayed with us and supported us. WTF is up with that? so when a man gets a woman pg it is expected that he will leave her because of this? and then no one blames them for leaving because well.. what do you expect him to do? I expect him to step up and take responsibility for his child. maybe more young men would step up if that was the expectation... but apparently leaving is the manly thing to do.

DP stayed with me and DS he supports us, he loves us, he is my partner and the father of my son. i love him and appreciate him but i don't think he deserves an award or anything. he should be expected to stay... if he loved me before i got pg i don't see why me getting pg would make him love me less. :shrug


my current cause i support for young pg women. i think when women are unexpectedly pg they are presented with three choices. abortion, adoption, and obviously neither. now there is tons of information about abortion and adoption but if she chooses to keep the baby (which is apparently a radical choice) there is very little information and support.

i am working on starting an organization geared towards helping these young women get the information and support they need. i think a good birth experience and a successful nursing relationship can be incredibly beneficial to someone whose pregnancy was unexpected. i want to give them the information they need to realize that they can do this, that they were made to be mothers, and that you don't have sell your kidney on the black market to afford a baby. the simplest, cheapest way to raise a baby is the natural way... most people just doesn't realize that b/c there aren't any commercials for it.

young moms get a raw deal. people assume they have no idea what they are talking about so just ignore their wishes. they are not given the same encouragement to have a natural birth, to breast feed, to co sleep etc. they are always told oh parenting is so hard without that. wth? thats the easy freaking way. washing bottles, buying formula, and CIO sound pretty darn hard to me. but apparently only older and wiser moms who are married and financially secure can do those things. :scratch: breast milk is free, natural birth is cheaper then drugs or a c section, cribs are wicked expensive, and the hormones from bfing would be really helpful to a new mom with very little support.

[almadianna]

What does it say about our society that partners are given a figurative "medal" for sticking around? How can we change this? Why this double standard?

I am truly concerned about the messages thsi sends out to young women, that they are somehow "lucky" that they got a partner to stay with them.

How do you handle these messages with your daughters? (or how would you, for those of us with daughters).

[1littlebit]

i haven't the slightest idea. it seems to be the "your not pregnant she is" thing. i dont know where this came from... it doesnt make any sense.. its awfully hard to accidently get pregnant all by your self.

[almadianna]

i haven't the slightest idea. it seems to be the "your not pregnant she is" thing. i dont know where this came from... it doesnt make any sense.. its awfully hard to accidently get pregnant all by your self.

yup, something about it taking two to tango....

[the_lissa]

What does it say about our society that partners are given a figurative "medal" for sticking around? How can we change this? Why this double standard?

I am truly concerned about the messages thsi sends out to young women, that they are somehow "lucky" that they got a partner to stay with them.

How do you handle these messages with your daughters? (or how would you, for those of us with daughters).

I hate this attitude. I find it so frustrating how if a man is a good, or hell, even adequate dad, he gets praised to death. Like that should be standard, and how often do women get praised, especially for doing the minimum.

[almadianna]

I hate this attitude. I find it so frustrating how if a man is a good, or hell, even adequate dad, he gets praised to death. Like that should be standard, and how often do women get praised, especially for doing the minimum.

I hate it too. I actually find it demeaning to men as well as women.

It is like we should not expect anything from them because they are "just men" or how the fact that they are a "man" is used as an excuse for incompetent behaviour. On the other hand just regular good parenting is made to seem like it is a needle in a haystack when it comes to men...

For women it is so vicious, if a child gets hurt... why is is always mom's fault? Why is the first question out of people's mouths "where was that child's mother?". I knew of a case in real life where a child died in the care of her father and you would not believe the vitrol towards the poor mother... as to WHY she was working. WHY was the child alone with their father. WHY werent you watching her.. it was astounding.

[Arwyn]

When I hear women talk about their husbands, it is often like they have another, very obnoxious, child.
I hear that a lot, quite explicitly. Like a friend of mine who refers to her "two toddlers: the little one and the big one". It drives me up the wall.

But I don't think that means it's easier to parent solo; I think it's just a reflection of patriarchy, using women to keep women down. The only domain allowed to a SAHM is the home, therefore she must be best/only good one in the home, the man must be incompetent, and that keeps her at home and the man in the public sphere. It's really insidious.

Although, there's the other angle where thanks to the patriarchy, a lot of men really DO suck in the domestic sphere, and I'm not sure where the line is between not bitching about one's guy to avoid perpetuating patriarchy, and agitating for change so that he carries his own load. The patriarchy is amazingly good at setting up double binds like that, where either way it wins and women lose.


What does it say about our society that partners are given a figurative "medal" for sticking around? How can we change this? Why this double standard?
Well, I think it exists because it's the flip side of the above: men can do no wrong, women can do no good. (I wrote a blog post once, in reply to a "quiz" for moms led to the answer "you're a bad mom"; every answer for the dads in mine was "you're a great dad".) If men don't participate in the home, it's just a shrug and an eyeroll and "boys will be boys"; if they do, they're super heroes deserving of medals and awards and ridiculous heaps of praise.

The only way I've figured out to change it is just by refusing to participate; men are supposed to do housework, and parent their children, and I refuse to either praise them for doing it or write them off for not.

I don't know how I would address the issue with a daughter, but it is one area where I think I'm benefited by being male-partnered: the Boychick learns how to behave, and what is expected of him, by having a dad who models full and equal responsibility in the house and in parenting, without expecting or receiving praise, excuses, or belittlement.

[MittensKittens]

I hear that a lot, quite explicitly. Like a friend of mine who refers to her "two toddlers: the little one and the big one". It drives me up the wall.

But I don't think that means it's easier to parent solo; I think it's just a reflection of patriarchy, using women to keep women down. The only domain allowed to a SAHM is the home, therefore she must be best/only good one in the home, the man must be incompetent, and that keeps her at home and the man in the public sphere. It's really insidious.

You have a great point there, and I totally agree. The remark from your friend shows the expectation of women to be the caring parties in a family - to "care" both for children and men, to meet their every needs. That is not what I meant though... since I explicitly chose not to share my path with a man, it seems easier not to, to me, since I don't want to be partnered up.

Having said that, I think it is so important that more child friendly employment opportunities are opened up. What are your experiences? I am in the process of setting up my own little business since I lost my (at home) writing job because of the crisis. Surprise surprise, it turns out to be in an acceptable field - sewing. I'm making carriers and kids clothes. I guess it is one of the limited options available for a WAHM.

[Teenytoona]

quick question: what do you do when people say things like "you can have the pink one, because you're a girl!", or "look at her kicking! she's going to be a ballet dancer!" (or, blue = boy, kicking = footballer). do you nod & smile, or do you interject the other option? dd is only 11 months & we are getting SO MUCH of this from people we see a lot - friends, mothers in law etc... i don't know how much to let slide & how much to challenge.

It depends on the moment how I'll react. If it's someone in passing or someone I know will just be jerkish about it, I'll let it slide. If it hits me on the right day I might give a snappy comeback. Other times I might give a quick fiery comeback, or maybe even give a mini-lecture.



Another question for you all - on the "case against circumcision" board, I frequently read comments about how society protects our daughters, but is biased against our sons. It talks about institutional bias against men. While I am anti-circ, the way in which these comments are formulated rub me the wrong way. What are your opinions?

This does drive me up a wall male circumcision and FGM are so different. If they were comperable it would be akin to cutting off the penis and then sewing it up to give a little hole to pee through. Ain't no bleepin' ballpark.

Actually I'm not sure about that. I wanted to agree at first, but actually I think that young single women without children are even less respected. In patriarchal society, if a woman is not defined by someone else (her husband, her father, her children) she does not have an identity. A woman who is not a wife, a daughter, a mother, a widow, or a nun is not categorizable in her own right, because she does not have a role. A woman without a "role", especially a young one, is a non-entity, not lableable, and therefore it is not necessary to treat her with respect. She's assumed to be waiting to acquire a "real" role (being a woman is not enough alone). At least a mother is not assumed to be a weak mindless sex object in quite the same way (no, mothers get to be madonnas! woohoo! :wink).
Though I'm not a mother so I can't say with much authority, I'm just pointing out what I've observed. I do agree that single mothers (particularly young ones) are not respected - perhaps in different ways? I mean, on the one hand a woman gets a certain amount of "weight" as a mother that she does not have as simply a woman, but on the other hand if she's single she's not going about motherhood in the "right" way so there's obviously a lot of judgement about that, spoken or not. And if she's young she'll get the BS and patronizing/ignoring that is given to young women anyway. So yeah actually, I don't know. What is "not being respected"? Being actively disrespected or just being ignored and trivialized? Both I guess. Sigh.
So I guess that didn't really answer anything at all :lol I guess I feel like young women are the least respected members of society regardless of circumstances, and some things can make it worse, like being single or being a mother (and we all know how much society respects and looks out for mothers, regardless of ideals about motherhood :eyesroll).

I seem to have missed the comment Hazelnut made, but I do agree with the "society needs to have a role to put a woman into" concept. It's really wierd being a non-category. I've been that one for years, before I was partnered and then after partnered being a stepmom (but not officially since we only fairly recently married). People don't know how to react to you, you don't fit in. I feel like I"m more accepted as an adult now that I'm "really" married and am a "real" mom, but it's different.

ITA. The idea that your partner is a 'saint" for sticking with you if you are "stupid enough" to become pregnant at a young age is utterly repulsive and very insulting. I am sorry you are having to deal with that prejudice.

Something I have come across quite a bit is how lots of people in a business or political context will call women by their first name, while men attending the same meeting have somehow automatically acquired the right to be referred to as Mr So and So. Perhaps this is a minor point, but I find it very downgrading.

On the first point, with how young moms are treated, I know I used to be one of those that looked on them with scorn, though from a different perspective than average society). For me, for a long time, having kids at all was akin to putting onself in prison for a man who wasn't worth it (issues from upbringing). So I'd look at a young mom and wonder why she'd willingly get into that trap, no man was worth it. But, I've learned and evolved and am working much harder at getting to know the individual/situation before placing a judgement on it. Well let me rephrase that, I do snapjudge in my mind, but then I call myself on it (usually) and rethink that initial judgement.

Oh, yeah, that Mr So and So Vs Jill. Or better yet there are men and girls in the workplace. :eyesroll I knew some older women in their 60-70's who still got called girls and they'd ask how old did they have to be to be a "woman" ya know?


I agree with this, both wrt to the circ issue and everything really. I am mostly discussing feminism or gender issues or even raising kids online rather than with irl acquaintances and friends, and in those communities this is an viewpoint I see a lot. I have three sons and gender roles and stereotypes do concern me, but I do not think that boys are at a disadvantage more than girls, and indeed I think they have less to fear and less discrimination to face. It shocks me actually, the hostility with which feminism is treated by some mothers. I think they really think it is an attack on boys and men, which I think is unfortunate.

Sometimes I think that there's a different and more difficult responsibility with boys. How do we teach them to not only not be misogynists, but to empower them to do the right thing, overcome societal norms and call out their peers on it? IMO men calling other men out on sexism makes more an impression than a woman calling a man out on it.



i am working on starting an organization geared towards helping these young women get the information and support they need. i think a good birth experience and a successful nursing relationship can be incredibly beneficial to someone whose pregnancy was unexpected. i want to give them the information they need to realize that they can do this, that they were made to be mothers, and that you don't have sell your kidney on the black market to afford a baby. the simplest, cheapest way to raise a baby is the natural way... most people just doesn't realize that b/c there aren't any commercials for it.

young moms get a raw deal. people assume they have no idea what they are talking about so just ignore their wishes. they are not given the same encouragement to have a natural birth, to breast feed, to co sleep etc. they are always told oh parenting is so hard without that. wth? thats the easy freaking way. washing bottles, buying formula, and CIO sound pretty darn hard to me. but apparently only older and wiser moms who are married and financially secure can do those things. :scratch: breast milk is free, natural birth is cheaper then drugs or a c section, cribs are wicked expensive, and the hormones from bfing would be really helpful to a new mom with very little support.

Awesome! Such a great idea, I'm glad to see this.

I hear that a lot, quite explicitly. Like a friend of mine who refers to her "two toddlers: the little one and the big one". It drives me up the wall.

But I don't think that means it's easier to parent solo; I think it's just a reflection of patriarchy, using women to keep women down. The only domain allowed to a SAHM is the home, therefore she must be best/only good one in the home, the man must be incompetent, and that keeps her at home and the man in the public sphere. It's really insidious.

Although, there's the other angle where thanks to the patriarchy, a lot of men really DO suck in the domestic sphere, and I'm not sure where the line is between not bitching about one's guy to avoid perpetuating patriarchy, and agitating for change so that he carries his own load. The patriarchy is amazingly good at setting up double binds like that, where either way it wins and women lose.



Well, I think it exists because it's the flip side of the above: men can do no wrong, women can do no good. (I wrote a blog post once, in reply to a "quiz" for moms led to the answer "you're a bad mom"; every answer for the dads in mine was "you're a great dad".) If men don't participate in the home, it's just a shrug and an eyeroll and "boys will be boys"; if they do, they're super heroes deserving of medals and awards and ridiculous heaps of praise.

The only way I've figured out to change it is just by refusing to participate; men are supposed to do housework, and parent their children, and I refuse to either praise them for doing it or write them off for not.

I don't know how I would address the issue with a daughter, but it is one area where I think I'm benefited by being male-partnered: the Boychick learns how to behave, and what is expected of him, by having a dad who models full and equal responsibility in the house and in parenting, without expecting or receiving praise, excuses, or belittlement.


OMG yes, if you're a woman and you bring your kid into work one day you're at best, a nuisance. If you're a man you're an amazing father! I too am of the mindset of not complimenting for somethign that should be standard. Of course that's my ideal when it comes to raising kids too, but I don't always meet it.


Now that it comes down to it, I reckon there was something else I wanted to say, but popped outta my head... ah well...

[Shabbers]

Teenytoona - did you used to post at the old Ms. Boards? Your name is familiar...

[Teenytoona]

Yeap, same SN there. I take it you did too?

[Shabbers]

Yep! I was Oni no Maggie there... nice to see you again :D

[honeybee]

What does it say about our society that partners are given a figurative "medal" for sticking around? How can we change this? Why this double standard?

I am truly concerned about the messages thsi sends out to young women, that they are somehow "lucky" that they got a partner to stay with them.

How do you handle these messages with your daughters? (or how would you, for those of us with daughters).

I have only boys, and once someone discovers that baby #3 is indeed a boy, I inevitably get, "Oh, you're lucky they're boys! So much better than all girls. Boys are so much easier..." It always baffles me that people seem to feel a need to console me when I'm really happy with my boys. And then when you try to narrow down why they think boys are easier, it usually comes down to worrying about your teen girl getting pg. I don't get that. Why would I worry less about my boys? If they get a girl pg, I assume they will be just as affected as the mother. And they may have no say over what happens to that child (because of course it is her body, her decision with everything from whether/how/where to birth, whether to bf,etc.). But there is a societal expectation that pg is not a problem for boys. :scratch

I don't think there's much point in debating which gender is most harmed or oppressed. The fact is that patriarchy harms both males and females. It just harms them in different ways. Maybe I'll keep notes so I can eventually write that book about raising boys as a feminist mom! :wink I have really been toying with the idea of starting a blog along these lines, but I'm pretty unfamiliar with the blogging world in general.

[Arwyn]

honeybee: that was what made me start my own blog! And of course, after I started it, I discovered there is actually a pretty large group of feminists blogging about parenting, and parenting boys in particular. But I always think adding another voice is a good thing!

There are some really interesting responses to the question "what does a feminist mother look like?" here (http://bluemilk.wordpress.com/category/10-feminist-motherhood-questions/).

[honeybee]

Thanks for the link! It looks really interesting. I think I will have to investigate blogging a little more to see if it's something I'm really interested in. I love to write, and I keep thinking about all these ideas I want to write down... but then again, I'm pretty strapped for time these days. :p

[honeybee]

So, I found a really GREAT book in the used section of Schuller's yesterday, and I just wanted to share with those who will understand my excitement.:joy:

It's called The Wandering Uterus, and it's about reproductive rights, looked at from a feminist perspective. BUT, it challenges the idea that all these new technologies are actually improving womenkinds reproductive choices or freeing them from patriarchy. I've only read the first chapter, but I'm finding it really fascinating. This goes way beyond the A debate, which I know is banned from discussion here. It is talking about everything from fertility treatments to birthing, etc. The first chapter really hit home on how women's reproduction is regulated all over the place, but there are NO regulations on the corporations and businesses profiting from them (as infertility treatments is BIG business). The book was written in 1997, so I'd be interested to find out if any more regulations have come into place since then.

[Hazelnut]

Yep! I was Oni no Maggie there... nice to see you again :D

oh I remember you! I was eisbaer. hi. :)

[Teenytoona]

Yep! I was Oni no Maggie there... nice to see you again :D

Nice to see you again too! :)

oh I remember you! I was eisbaer. hi. :)

Ahh the reunions! I love it!

[MittensKittens]

That link is really interesting - thanks Arwyn!

[MittensKittens]

Are you all still alive? :)

[Hazelnut]

I was going to ask you all what you thought of that whole Letterman thing. I don't watch him, but it was in the papers.

[transformed]

I do not know If I am a feminist. LOL. Certainly more so than when I started here at mdc.

I enjoyed this immensely: http://www.peaceworkmagazine.org/node/681

I am completely disenfranchised that my choice to stay at home is 150% not valued y my husband OR society.

I just read a story about "cougars" in NPR that made my blood curdle. Just at the mere mention of the word.

I find myself increasingly wondering why men can have bachelor parties with naked women and sex and women aren't supposed to. And why it is glorified.

I asked my husband if he thought I could et a shirt altered and he said "No, you just need larger tits."

I am trying to start a business and that makes me a lazy a$$ but if my husband was trying to start a company - he would e an "entrepreneur"

:irked:

I am kind of.


I have my opinions. Some of them fit into that definition....certainly some dont....I dont know what that "makes me." :lol

[ursusarctos]

Discussion question: how does radical feminism shape your religious/philosophical views? Yes, I know that's vague... or perhaps "open ended" is a nicer way to put it :p

One thing I get really worked up about is how I am supposed to just "get over" the fact that the great majority of philosophers both western and eastern were explicitly misogynist. You read about their ideas of what humanity's problems are and their solutions, and then you come to the "about women, the other, separate group that cooks, cleans and bears our babies" part. Women just didn't fall under these guys' definition of "human". So now that the definition of human has expanded to include women, words originally intended only for men are supposed to apply to me too? The argument "but they were important thinkers!" doesn't really cut it for me anymore - I don't care what the sociohistorical context is, if a man thinks of women only as objects (as opposed to subjects) it causes me to seriously question the validity of the rest of his opinions.
The more I identify as a woman, not a "human" (which means male-identified as the term is used in our society) the less I am able to let "just a little misogyny on the side" slide. For example, as a teenager I very much liked the Beats - Jack Kerouac especially. Then I realized that women had no place in their idea of humanity - in their world women existed to take care, to bail out, to put out, to wait at home while the men had their counterculture adventures. Again, women were objects, not fellow subjects. And as I identified more and more as a woman, I realized that they were not speaking to me, and their work mostly lost its appeal for me.
As for religion, similar problem as I have with philosophers - women are left out, on the side, if they are not directly put down. And now that women are people too, we are expected to just pretend that all these old males were actually speaking to everyone, not just men. Which was simply not the case. Am I making any sense here?
I also find it interesting how the ideas of a lot of enlightenment thinkers helped to form the society that eventually enabled feminism to exist as an open movement - yet also formed the basis for the materialist, mechanistic worldview that invalidates the subjective, physical, emotional, intuitive and is currently destroying the environment and quality of life of pretty much everyone in more or less blatant ways.
Anyway, just a little ramble - anyone else have thoughts?

[MittensKittens]

Absolutely. "When you ignore the misogyny, their work is actually really good" doesn't do the trick for me. Of course, there are philosophers who are not misogynist.

[ursusarctos]

Absolutely. "When you ignore the misogyny, their work is actually really good" doesn't do the trick for me. Of course, there are philosophers who are not misogynist.

Of course... I think. But then I try to think of some (especially males) and I can't come up with any :innocent It seems that sympathizing with the plight of women is what counts for non-misogyny in the minds of most people - but that doesn't always add up.
Though I certainly don't have a degree in philosophy. Quite possibly I am missing a lot :o

[Hazelnut]

Interesting post, ursaarctos. I agree. I've had the same issue with writers. And you almost feel grateful when reading about them and literature about them even acknowledges that they were misogynist. Like, well that sucks, but thanks for thinking it worth mentioning...I'll stop reading Alexander Pope now, lol.

I would say it's the same for all male historical figures. We're supposed to just shrug off their misogyny as their being a product of their times...which would indeed seem to invalidate some of their greatness, imo. I recall at work bringing this up wrt some history textbooks and my point was largely ignored. I just thought it should be acknowledged. I think it's just a testament to the lingering misogyny- the apathy.

And then what gets me is that any time the "Are you a feminist?" question comes up, so many say that they're a "humanist!" as if we're all equal, and have been for so long, and this feminist word is so alienating to men. Grr.

[ursusarctos]

And then what gets me is that any time the "Are you a feminist?" question comes up, so many say that they're a "humanist!" as if we're all equal, and have been for so long, and this feminist word is so alienating to men. Grr.

Yes! I agree. I used to be one of those people too - until I realized that I'm a woman, that is. If a lable basically invalidates your way of being/experiencing the world/experiences of discrimination (as the word "humanist" does to all subjectivities not white heterosexual male), it's not a lable you want to be claiming.
I think part of the fear of calling oneself feminist comes from the bad image feminism has been smeared with. It also invites conflict and disapproval, which is not something people want to deal with. And of course women especially are not supposed to seriously dissent.

[MittensKittens]

Of course... I think. But then I try to think of some (especially males) and I can't come up with any :innocent It seems that sympathizing with the plight of women is what counts for non-misogyny in the minds of most people - but that doesn't always add up.
Though I certainly don't have a degree in philosophy. Quite possibly I am missing a lot :o

Well... I would like some help on that one too, because I might be missing something, and if that is the case, I would certainly be very interested in some new reading material. Perhaps even mentioning those I was thinking of might be controversial but indeed, they are the only philosophers I can think of who are not misogynist - Marx and Engels.

[1littlebit]

what i don't get is the perspective of some people (feminists included) that consider some of my beliefs and practices anti feminist. i am a SAHM b/c i choose to be... but some people think this is an insult to feminists... huh? i have a choice... i made my choice... thats the point of feminism IMO. I don't understand why some people consider not using birth control, opting for out of hospital or drug free births, SAHMing, extended BFing etc. anti feminist. i actually think that birth is a huge feminist issue and anyone who believes advocating for our right to birth at home, vaginally, with our intervention etc as anti feminist is totally missing the point.

same for extended BFing, AP, and other things that 'tie me down' ... i see these as huge women's rights issues... the right to NIP, pump at work, extended maternity leave etc are not demeaning to women... at least IMHO they are empowering, and they are choices we should have the right to make. what do you all think?

[MittensKittens]

what i don't get is the perspective of some people (feminists included) that consider some of my beliefs and practices anti feminist. i am a SAHM b/c i choose to be... but some people think this is an insult to feminists... huh? i have a choice... i made my choice... thats the point of feminism IMO. I don't understand why some people consider not using birth control, opting for out of hospital or drug free births, SAHMing, extended BFing etc. anti feminist. i actually think that birth is a huge feminist issue and anyone who believes advocating for our right to birth at home, vaginally, with our intervention etc as anti feminist is totally missing the point.

same for extended BFing, AP, and other things that 'tie me down' ... i see these as huge women's rights issues... the right to NIP, pump at work, extended maternity leave etc are not demeaning to women... at least IMHO they are empowering, and they are choices we should have the right to make. what do you all think?

I absolutely agree. The right to self determination includes the right to stay at home with your children, of course. It wouldn't be a choice if you HAD TO work outside the home, right? Unfortunately, deciding to be a SAHM seems to be something that is met with an awful lot of resistance today, and I personally see that as something that is going to turn into a feminist issue.

Birth rights are so very important to me, especially after my recent experiences with the lack of them. I had a UC, and was told by SO MANY PEOPLE that I should have "just gone to the hospital" like "normal women" do. I had huge trouble getting the birth certificate. In fact, I still don't have it but it should be OK now. My lawyer told me that "the fact you gave birth outside the hospital is something that hugely irritates everyone". Outside of the hospital, like giving birth in a hospital is the default. I won't bore you with the whole story but it was horrible. Not quite as horrible as a hospital would have been though. I think that birth is one of the big feminist issues, but one that has been largely left behind by feminism, until recently.

[1littlebit]

exactly! telling women that the is only one 'real or right' choice for where to give birth is about as far from feminism as it gets. although i have noticed that there are many women who say that they are not feminists ... this is another thing i don't understand. why would you not want women to have a choice? i don't understand why a woman would not be a feminist. is there something about this i am not understanding? to me feminism is about a woman's right to make her own choices in her life, her body, her spirit, etc. how is someone not in favor of this?

[ursusarctos]

Well... I would like some help on that one too, because I might be missing something, and if that is the case, I would certainly be very interested in some new reading material. Perhaps even mentioning those I was thinking of might be controversial but indeed, they are the only philosophers I can think of who are not misogynist - Marx and Engels.

Hmm, Engels was the one who wrote about the origin of women's subjugation being in non-communist society, right?
Yes, here we go. I knew there had to be some dirt. This (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/apr/29/friedrich-engels-prostitution-suffrage) article is rather trite but notifies us of the unsurprising fact that Engels behaved just like every other 19th century man with money :eyesroll
I don't know much about Marx, though I do know that in the days of Communist revolutions women's rights were explicitly sidelined as irrelevant: when class-based oppression ceased, then so would sex-based oppression, automatically.
Also, I don't like the Communist emphasis on work outside the home as the path to equality for all. I think that that's just the other side of the patriarchal/protestant work ethic coin. I mean, if your meaning in life is based on work, how is that inherently against anything in a patriarchal/capitalist society? Where is the emphasis on home life? On love, friendship, intuitive knowing, respect for nature, balance, emotional health, etc. etc. all the things that patriarchal society gives women responsibility for and then reviles?
I don't know if that's Marx though, since I've only actually read excerpts of him :o Though I do remember being struck by how little he seemed to differ in his basic attitude about the world from other men of his time.

what i don't get is the perspective of some people (feminists included) that consider some of my beliefs and practices anti feminist. i am a SAHM b/c i choose to be... but some people think this is an insult to feminists... huh? i have a choice... i made my choice... thats the point of feminism IMO. I don't understand why some people consider not using birth control, opting for out of hospital or drug free births, SAHMing, extended BFing etc. anti feminist. i actually think that birth is a huge feminist issue and anyone who believes advocating for our right to birth at home, vaginally, with our intervention etc as anti feminist is totally missing the point.

same for extended BFing, AP, and other things that 'tie me down' ... i see these as huge women's rights issues... the right to NIP, pump at work, extended maternity leave etc are not demeaning to women... at least IMHO they are empowering, and they are choices we should have the right to make. what do you all think?

Totally agree!

I absolutely agree. The right to self determination includes the right to stay at home with your children, of course. It wouldn't be a choice if you HAD TO work outside the home, right? Unfortunately, deciding to be a SAHM seems to be something that is met with an awful lot of resistance today, and I personally see that as something that is going to turn into a feminist issue.

Birth rights are so very important to me, especially after my recent experiences with the lack of them. I had a UC, and was told by SO MANY PEOPLE that I should have "just gone to the hospital" like "normal women" do. I had huge trouble getting the birth certificate. In fact, I still don't have it but it should be OK now. My lawyer told me that "the fact you gave birth outside the hospital is something that hugely irritates everyone". Outside of the hospital, like giving birth in a hospital is the default. I won't bore you with the whole story but it was horrible. Not quite as horrible as a hospital would have been though. I think that birth is one of the big feminist issues, but one that has been largely left behind by feminism, until recently.

So true. Glad to hear that your legal situation is looking up, btw!

[MittensKittens]

Sure, I am totally with you on many of those points. I have also seen first hand that the introduction of communism does not shatter the basis of patriarchy, or even class society for that matter. In practice, communism often takes away choice, rather than offering it. This is one of the many issues I have with the concept of communism. If you ask me about the issues I have with capitalism, I'll have to write a novel though :).

[ursusarctos]

Sure, I am totally with you on many of those points. I have also seen first hand that the introduction of communism does not shatter the basis of patriarchy, or even class society for that matter. In practice, communism often takes away choice, rather than offering it. This is one of the many issues I have with the concept of communism. If you ask me about the issues I have with capitalism, I'll have to write a novel though :).

Hehe, I'm with you about capitalism. And in fact, would communism in itself be such a bad thing? Or is it only a bad thing when grafted onto a pre-existing capitalist sexist society? Or when theorized and put into practice by men whose worldview is really no different than that of the capitalists?

[MittensKittens]

Hehe, I'm with you about capitalism. And in fact, would communism in itself be such a bad thing? Or is it only a bad thing when grafted onto a pre-existing capitalist sexist society? Or when theorized and put into practice by men whose worldview is really no different than that of the capitalists?

I only have real life experience with communism grafted onto an ex colonial, former feudal system (Korea). I can tell you that that ain't pretty. However, having been to both parts of this country (communist north, capitalist south) I can honestly say that - not commenting on other aspects of both societies - both halves are equally misogynist. In different ways, but definitely equally.

[1littlebit]

so are there any gov. and economic set ups that aren't misogynist? i have issues with capitalism and communism... but then i don't think following any system 100% is a good idea... a combination of different aspects from each makes more sense IMO

[princesstutu]

so are there any gov. and economic set ups that aren't misogynist?

It's the ppl enacting the set ups that are misogynist, which lends problems to the set ups. I think if you get non-misogynist ppl to run governments, you get non-misogynist governments (after work to overcome difficulties presented by the old ways of doing things).

Of course, that doesn't exist anywhere in the world, I don't think. Not yet, anyway. ;)

Are there any good books written about socialism by women?

And, wait...I just remembered: anarchy isn't misogynist. Altho, that doesn't mean anarchists can't be. :eyesroll

[ursusarctos]

It's the ppl enacting the set ups that are misogynist, which lends problems to the set ups. I think if you get non-misogynist ppl to run governments, you get non-misogynist governments (after work to overcome difficulties presented by the old ways of doing things).


:thumb Exactly. I think the reason capitalism and communism haven't worked out is due to the attitudes of the people making up the system. Doesn't matter what kind of political structure you theoretically have, if you worship power and money and selfishness, misogyny, and disregard for the natural world/cycles are rewarded then you're going to get a pretty f***ed up system.

And yeah, anarchism probably goes along the same lines. Selfish, misogynist anarchists out of touch with nature will result in anarchy that doesn't work out.
It isn't inherently misogynist though, you're right. In fact there's even anarchafeminism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchofeminism).
As for feminist socialism, there have been many feminist socialists and I think they used to be more intertwined in the 70s (at least Germaine Greer's earlier work was socialist and feminist), though I can't remember any names.
Oh interesting, I just read the article I linked to:

In modern times anarcha-feminism has been noted for its heavy influence on ecofeminism. "Ecofeminists rightly note that except for anarcha feminist, no feminist perspective has recognized the importance of healing the nature/culture division."

I usually identify myself as an ecofeminist but it seems not all that separate from anarchafeminist...
It also seems that voluntary (not institutional) socialism is part of a.f.:

They refer to the creation of a society, based on cooperation, sharing, mutual aid, etc. as the "feminization of society."

[transformed]

so my husband and I were having a discussion last night about how our fathers are calm, cool and collected and our mothers are crazy as loons. (:rolleyes) I was trying to articulate that it was how society wants us to view women but I really didnt have much to ride on. I couldn't articulate myself at.all. I didnt even really know what I was talking about - I just had a feeling that he was wrong. (Even though I think these women are crazy often.)

Anyone have any info? I am looking to explore this topic further. perhaps a book?

I think one of the hardest thins about branching out and learning about feminism, and women is that I, myself am still inherently brainwashed and that is a lot to contend with. 28 years of it. but I can see myself grow in spurts.

[princesstutu]

transformed, I have no book ideas, but hopefully someone else will. I'd love to read a book or two on that topic.

I was discussing that very issue with my father a couple weeks ago. Men are socialized to view women as crazy and then when an actual crazy woman comes into their lives, they blow off her craziness as something expected. Women are socialized to expect the males who like them to be mean to them and so it can take a while for many women to understand that they're being abused (if they see it at all).

It's all a trap to keep us unevolved.

[barefootmama0709]

I feel that my views of feminism are somewhat different than the traditional-after all, I am by choice a stay-at-home mom and I do many traditional "mom" things. However, I feel that true feminism recognizes that a woman is equally important no matter what role she decides to take and a feminist need not reject the traditional female role-I don't feel repressed because I chose this path; I was not forced into it.

[greenmamapagan]

I feel that my views of feminism are somewhat different than the traditional-after all, I am by choice a stay-at-home mom and I do many traditional "mom" things. However, I feel that true feminism recognizes that a woman is equally important no matter what role she decides to take and a feminist need not reject the traditional female role-I don't feel repressed because I chose this path; I was not forced into it.

:thumb Two threads that always seem to come up next to each other in my subscriptions box are this one and one about "traditional home-making" and personally (although I think it's funny) I don't see any discrepancy in that :D

[umami_mommy]

:twothumbs

[Hazelnut]

I really value the work I do at home. I feel it's society that doesn't. That being said, I would never want a women who would rather go to work to stay at home. And for me, the only part that feels in discord with that my feminism is the financial dependence that results. Whether or not I trust my spouse, that position has not served women well. However I think there are solutions to that that do not involve my running off to work full-time. Maternity leave, paternity leave, work flexibility., part-time work. Heck I have part-time work and I can barely do it with my dh's FT job. He's not in a high powered job by any means and his hours are still long. Where it gets murkier and more confusing for me is staying at home beyond the early years. By that I don't mean that I disapprove or it's wrong or unfeminist. I just think it becomes stickier for women, at least in society as it is now.

[princesstutu]

That is exactly why I have an issue with capitalism. It is inherent within capitalism to oppress, whether it's the oppression of women, children, men, or the planet.

A woman should not have to suffer within her society and then suffer moreso simply b/c she chose the role of continuing the human population. What we allow as normal in society would represent mental dysfunction in an individual. I'm not sure why it's so hard for most ppl to understand that and get motivated to do something about it.

I used to think bucking societal norms by taking my children everywhere a revolutionary (if not exhausting) act, but...I'm thinking it's time to advance the revolutionary aspects of motherhood beyond simply doing the opposite of "mainstream" mothers.

I don't have any ideas, yet, tho. Maybe this pregnancy will inspire me.

[amitymama]

Just reviving this thread, glad to see it here on MDC. I haven't been on here in quite awhile, mainly because I could't find many like-minded radfems to chat to. Now I might be lured back in if this thread gets more active!

So, hello. :)

[MittensKittens]

Just reviving this thread, glad to see it here on MDC. I haven't been on here in quite awhile, mainly because I could't find many like-minded radfems to chat to. Now I might be lured back in if this thread gets more active!

So, hello. :)

Hi

What have you all been up to lately in terms of activism etc? Me not much, other than attending a lactivist demonstration.

[amitymama]

I'm attending a conference on feminism in London in October and hope to get more involved with some more hands-on activism through contacts I make there. I've also just started writing a book about feminism and motherhood so that will keep me busy for quite awhile!

Have any of you read "My Mother Wears Combat Boots: A parenting guide for the rest of us" by Jessica Mills? She's a punk musician/anarchist/radfem and it was refreshing to read a parenting guide by someone who discusses the issues that matter to me. I highly recommend it.

As for whether I'm "out" as a feminist...very much so! I'm not constantly walking around talking about it or anything but my friends and family all know I'm pretty into feminist issues. If they didn't know before, they knew when I walked around at a family gathering with my "This is what a feminist looks like" t-shirt on when I was 7 months pregnant last summer. :D

[MittensKittens]

That sounds great. I haven't been to London in a long while, but I am glad to hear that feminism is alive and well over there. Does the conference have any particular theme or subject?

Haven't read the book, but it sounds good. The problem with living in third world countries is that it is tricky to order books in other languages, particularly that kind of book.

I'm attending a conference on feminism in London in October and hope to get more involved with some more hands-on activism through contacts I make there. I've also just started writing a book about feminism and motherhood so that will keep me busy for quite awhile!

Have any of you read "My Mother Wears Combat Boots: A parenting guide for the rest of us" by Jessica Mills? She's a punk musician/anarchist/radfem and it was refreshing to read a parenting guide by someone who discusses the issues that matter to me. I highly recommend it.

As for whether I'm "out" as a feminist...very much so! I'm not constantly walking around talking about it or anything but my friends and family all know I'm pretty into feminist issues. If they didn't know before, they knew when I walked around at a family gathering with my "This is what a feminist looks like" t-shirt on when I was 7 months pregnant last summer. :D

[princesstutu]

Welcome! I'm glad to see more interest in this thread, although I don't post often on MDC, I do come around.

MittensKittens, maybe someone can order it for you and mail it to you? You could paypal the money or something? A relative or someone in another country or something?

I would offer, but I'm in the process of moving to San Francisco. I'm looking forward to seeing what the activist scene is like there these days. :D

[ursusarctos]

Have any of you read "My Mother Wears Combat Boots: A parenting guide for the rest of us" by Jessica Mills? She's a punk musician/anarchist/radfem and it was refreshing to read a parenting guide by someone who discusses the issues that matter to me. I highly recommend it.


I flipped through it when I saw it in the bookstore! It looked very good. I <3 the birth/parenting section at my local bookstore (ok, actually the largest and best bookstore in Finland, but still...). Even though the mainstream birth and parenting culture is still rather "conservative" here this bookstore consistently stocks books on natural birth and childrearing :love

so my husband and I were having a discussion last night about how our fathers are calm, cool and collected and our mothers are crazy as loons. (:rolleyes) I was trying to articulate that it was how society wants us to view women but I really didnt have much to ride on. I couldn't articulate myself at.all. I didnt even really know what I was talking about - I just had a feeling that he was wrong. (Even though I think these women are crazy often.)

Anyone have any info? I am looking to explore this topic further. perhaps a book?

I think one of the hardest thins about branching out and learning about feminism, and women is that I, myself am still inherently brainwashed and that is a lot to contend with. 28 years of it. but I can see myself grow in spurts.

Transformed, I've been thinking about this a lot lately, especially after I read your post. When I was growing up and especially as a teenager I was used to thinking of my mom as this crazy, unstable, nagging unpleasant person who drove my dad to be absent, irresponsible, keep his personal life from her. As I've gotten older I've gotten to understand my mom more, and now I've started to see how much my dad's behavior ("normal" for a male in our society) actually drove her to be how she is ("crazy" - obsessive about cleanliness, morally black-and-white, overly protective, "overly" enthusiastic about holidays, family reunions, etc., somewhat "nagging"). I see more and more how my dad refused to put energy into making a family and keeping up a household, even though he did work long hours to support us. I see how his actions drove my mom to "crazy" behavior which he then used as a justification for not respecting her or participating in life with her as a true partner. I see how my mom saw this as a normal relationship dynamic due to her conditioning as a girl and young woman and how my dad saw it as normal due to his conditioning.
My mom also tried to live up to a standard of "housewife and mother" that is impossible to attain alone (and men, husbands, are not supposed to help a woman be a good housewife but rather battle her efforts the whole time). When one doesn't attain the impossible housewife standard, one is vilified by society for being a bad woman, and when one does attain it, one is vilified for being "crazy" (obsessive about cleanliness and morality, uptight, scourge of "more relaxed" men and children everywhere). It's like when women with large breasts are given advantages for being large-breasted, which encourages women to desire large breasts, and then when a woman gets breast implants everyone laughs at her for being so insecure and looking "ridiculous".
It's so unfair: women are given the role of "keeper of morals" (upkeeper of social mores and duties), conditioned to the duty from very young, and then they are accused by men and women who have rebelled against that conditioning of being "uptight". Even people my age, university guys in their mid 20s, complain about their female partners making them come home from partying earlier, eat vegetables, not ride unsafe motorcycles, use hand sanitizer, stop smoking, exercise, have nice dinner parties, go to bed early, pick up their underwear, be "nice" - see a pattern? And yet they choose to be with the type of woman who finds such things as the above extremely important, having almost a moral quality, and they complain about their women's "restrictions" in a way that lets you know that they actually want and like their women's "uptight" behavior. So the woman gets complained about, the man gets to feel righteous, the woman gets to feel righteous, and there is no true communication or trust. Women like me, who do my utmost not to take on the role of moral lifestyle police, get to hear their friends complain, with utmost sincerity, about how uncivilized and wrongheaded their male partners are for not picking up their underwear or not stopping before that one last beer or not wanting to clean the house on saturdays - and while I want to validate my friends as people with real concerns, I hate the fact that they have been socialized to consider those things to be almost as important as the fact that they love their partners and their partners love them. And I also hate that men have been socialized to consider such things completely trivial. So instead of women communicating to men that, when they live with someone, they would really like it if both parties could be neat and pick up their own dirty clothes, or share the cleaning equally, and men respecting that for the small, reasonable, personal-responsibility issue it is, or women communicating to men that when they pick up their underwear it shows that they care and makes them feel loved and men accepting and respecting that, we have women getting enraged at men leaving their underwear on the floor and men completely disregarding that rage because they think a messy floor is trivial.
I'm rambling here, am I making any sense?

[MittensKittens]

I have been hanging around mainstream Serbian parenting forums recently, and they are full of weird, fascinating comments. What is your take on a woman saying "I can't really expect my husband to be in the delivery room with me, can I? I mean, I know that's the moment when I first hold my newborn is magical for me, but us women can't really expect men to also be able to love a bloody, objectively ugly newborn, can we?"

Everyone agreed!!!

I am just hoping that my son will grow up to be a normal man.

[greenmamapagan]

Wow Mittens! Most men here would be devestated to be kept out of the room their child was born in.

[Hazelnut]

Of course it makes sense! Women can't win. I never quite understood the paradox, but it seems obvious. You are vilified for not doing what is expected, but also put down for fulfilling that particular woman's "role," regardless of what it is. I think so much of how male partners act contributes to it as well, though they are left off the hook mostly.

I feel it in my own home already. I am always telling my dh that he has to help teach our kids to clean up too, to touch on just the cleaning topic. I have three boys who are very young, and I often feel like we're already on the path toward what I want to avoid.

I feel like what I'm doing could be seen as petty, but hello! Who the heck else is going to do what I'm doing? It all falls on me. Of course I'm gonna mini freak out at messes. I'm primarily the one who is expected to deal with them, and they get worse, not better. I'd be an idiot to be lax and let it snowball into disasters. And yet if I run around obsessing over it...I get to feel petty.

[Hazelnut]

Of course it makes sense! Women can't win. I never quite understood the paradox, but it seems obvious. You are vilified for not doing what is expected, but also put down for fulfilling that particular woman's "role," regardless of what it is. I think so much of how male partners act contributes to it as well, though they are left off the hook mostly.

I feel it in my own home already with my kids. I am always telling my dh that he has to help teach our kids to clean up too, to touch on just the cleaning topic. I have three boys who are very young, and I often feel like we're already on the path toward what I want to avoid. I clean up after them. I try to have them learn to clean up after themselves, but dh doesn't really. So guess what that makes me?

I feel like what I'm doing could be seen as petty, but hello! Who the heck else is going to do what I'm doing? It all falls on me. Of course I'm gonna mini freak out at messes. I'm primarily the one who is expected to deal with them, and they get worse, not better. I'd be an idiot to be lax and let it snowball into disasters. And yet if I run around obsessing over it...I get to feel petty. We've been seeing a therapist to help deal with my oldest's difficult behavior, and he was talking about how when one parent is laxer (usually the father) it usually results in the other parent (usually the mother) being even stricter to then deal with the consequential behavioral fall out. It often takes two.

I think this is very true:
I see how his actions drove my mom to "crazy" behavior which he then used as a justification for not respecting her or participating in life with her as a true partner.

My husband is not really old school at all and will clean, cooks, watches kids, etc. and I still see certain dynamics creeping in.

[ursusarctos]

I feel like what I'm doing could be seen as petty, but hello! Who the heck else is going to do what I'm doing? It all falls on me. Of course I'm gonna mini freak out at messes. I'm primarily the one who is expected to deal with them, and they get worse, not better. I'd be an idiot to be lax and let it snowball into disasters. And yet if I run around obsessing over it...I get to feel petty.

Yes. This. I see now how this happened to my mom. When I thought of her as nagging and uptight about chores, she was just trying to get a little help cleaning up a house that we *all* messed up. Since none of us liked cleaning, and my dad wouldn't clean given the choice, we saw my mom as this crazy woman who insisted on us cleaning, like it was her thing or something, and if she just wouldn't be so uptight then everything would be fine. I'm so sad about that now. She must have felt so alone. I also think that my parents' backwards relationship conditioning from the 60s didn't allow them to see that this was the actual situation, so there was just resentment and misunderstanding from all sides.

My husband is not really old school at all and will clean, cooks, watches kids, etc. and I still see certain dynamics creeping in.

Uh huh. My own relationship with a not-at-all-old-school man is exactly what has led to me understanding my mother so much better than I did before. Again with women being saddled with the "lifestyle police" role - girls are taught to "see" dirt, boys aren't (this was a big one in my childhood, I remember - because boys are "naturally" dirty and untidy so why teach them to clean and pick up?). So who sees that an apartment is dirty and needs cleaning? The woman. Since the man doesn't see it, she is forced to ask for his help in cleaning if she doesn't want to do it herself, which, when the request is repeated (which it will be because the man continues to be passive about mess), can often become "nagging" or can be interpreted as nagging by the man, who has been trained to think that cleaning is unnecessary and to be avoided unless someone (mother/wife figure) makes you. So when the man continually avoids cleaning the woman gets frustrated and will overreact to things that she would have been more reasonable about had the man just done it himself without her asking. I remember my mother being distraught over having to ask my dad for the gazillionth time to wash dishes or something. I didn't understand her rage at having to ask. Now I do.
Men are overwhelmingly not taught to take care of themselves, let alone others, nor to take responsibility for the upkeep of shared spaces. No wonder married men do so much better psychologically than unmarried men. It's a crying shame, for the girls who have to take on the burden of responsibility for everyone's wellbeing from such a young age, and for the boys who are not taught that caring for themselves and others improves everyone's quality of life and so end up with major handicaps when living alone as adults and later in relationships.

[freestylemama]

Hi there! I'm here! I'm not totally sure where I fit in on the feminist spectrum- probably somewhere between second and third wave. Anyway, I'm definitely a feminist.

Are any of you also struggling with raising a super girly girl? My LO loves having her nails painted and wearing pink tutus and all of that stuff. She's also very tough and daring and athletic. So far, my MO has been to just let her lead and support whatever. We've avoided the Disney Princess stuff so far, but I'm not sure how much longer this will be possible.

I want her to feel free to express herself how she wants to, but I don't want her to get sucked into the consumerist "girls and supposed to do and buy ____" trap.

I'm also not very girly, so a lot of this is kind of weird for me. I don't wear makeup or get too into my hair, so this is pretty different.

She's two fwiw. How have some of you veteran feminist mamas dealt with your super sparkly girly girls?

[Tattooed Hand]

Hi everyone!

I just wanted to share some recent experiences and challenges that I have been facing since I got pregnant and see what people think and if they've had similar challenges.

First off, I'm a PhD student who is finishing up her dissertation. My adviser is a feminist and feminist scholar. She has two children. When I told her I was pregnant, her response was to say that now I had a firm deadline and she put my on a pretty rigorous completion schedule. I wasn't able to keep up with it, especially since we came up with it when I was 8 weeks pregnant and I was nauseaous, exhausted, emotional and headachy well into my 14th week. I told her I was not feeling well ahead of time and then when I went into her office, she told me that I "looked fine" and she expected me "to look much worse." As if she didn't believe me. Then she told me that she only had trouble with the smell of baked goods when she was in first trimester. (ALL food made me want to gag).

During this deadline creating meeting she also advised me to sign up for daycare right away so that a slot would be available by the time the baby was 3 months old. I told her that I didn't want to put such baby in daycare and that the places she recommended accept fulltime babies (8:30-5:30) and that I wanted to breastfeed. She said that she put both her kids in that daycare full time from when they were 3 months old and they are just fine. "How else can you teach full time?"

While I respect her choices, I really felt strange, like she was part of the larger institutional system that was penalizing me because my body was acting out of script with the presumed (male) academic body that policies and progress are based on. Because I fell behind with my deadline, I was forced to pay an additional semester of tuition instead of being given a leave of absence based on a medical exemption. (Long story, details boring, but I wrangled long and hard and I have no recourse.) But I felt like my adviser had no room in her feminist professional views other than to expect me to behave like a man. I should just produce at the same rate and adopt parenting practices that allow me to function like a man in a professional setting. Instead, I am only teaching part time in an adjunct position and not applying for jobs this year because at interview and application times I will be either trying to complete my diss before the baby comes, heavily pregnant and/or with a newborn that I don't want to leave to fly across the country for all day conferences/campus visits. I'm happly to take it easy for a couple of years and have this laid back schedule that allows me to breastfeed and keep my baby out of daycare until it's a year old (though we might get some part time help to come to the house.) Then, the plan is that when I get a tenure track job, to have my husband be the primary parent with the less demanding job (or no job for a while).

Speaking of which, the second topic is the challenge to the relationship. My husband is a feminist (in practice and in study). But this pregnancy has really underlined the physical differences between us alot. Everything from certain physical limitations I face to different feelings we have about the birth are really strange for us.

I'd love to hear what you guys think. Sorry if this has been covered in the thread, I only read 3 pages of the 7...

[ursusarctos]

She's two fwiw. How have some of you veteran feminist mamas dealt with your super sparkly girly girls?

Well I don't have any kids yet but I was a super sparkly girly girl when I was little :lol pink was my favorite color, cinderella was my favorite disney movie, and I actually refused to wear pants at all until I was around 10, only skirts. Fwiw I currently don't wear a bra or shave regularly and have never worn everyday makeup. I'm very far from a girly girl in my behavior and pastimes - I guess I just sort of grew out of it gradually. I would say don't worry about it, as she gets older and you expose her to feminist values she will pick those up. There's nothing wrong with little girls liking frilly girly things, just as long as they aren't badgered into it by rigid gender expectations, which it sounds like your daughter isn't.

Tattooed Hand, I'm sorry to hear about your situation. It does sound like your adviser is expecting you to pretty much deny your physical reality in order to pursue an academic career in the "normal" way, that is, like a man with no family. Which is wrong and unfair imo - she's missing a big part of feminism if she can't see how the system totally neglects the needs of mothers and children and therefore won't cut you any slack. It's wrong that the "standard" of human being in our society is (unattached) man and women are expected to conform to that standard if they want to "succeed". There needs to be more maternity/paternity leave available and respected.

[TwinsTwicePlusTwo]

Hi, ladies! I just came back to MDC. So glad to see this thread still hanging around on the first page.

Hi there! I'm here! I'm not totally sure where I fit in on the feminist spectrum- probably somewhere between second and third wave. Anyway, I'm definitely a feminist.

Are any of you also struggling with raising a super girly girl? My LO loves having her nails painted and wearing pink tutus and all of that stuff. She's also very tough and daring and athletic. So far, my MO has been to just let her lead and support whatever. We've avoided the Disney Princess stuff so far, but I'm not sure how much longer this will be possible.

I want her to feel free to express herself how she wants to, but I don't want her to get sucked into the consumerist "girls and supposed to do and buy ____" trap.

I'm also not very girly, so a lot of this is kind of weird for me. I don't wear makeup or get too into my hair, so this is pretty different.

She's two fwiw. How have some of you veteran feminist mamas dealt with your super sparkly girly girls?
Ugh. My youngest daughter is girly to the extreme. I admit that I have a hard time handling it. There seems to be nothing for her and I to connect over. We don't enjoy any of the same activities, nor is she interested in hearing about the issues I care about like my two older girls are. She thinks all the volunteer work and activism I do is "boring". :( All she wants to do is talk with her friends, watch movies, and go shopping. I don't know how to make her care about less trivial issues and it has created a real rift between us.

Sorry. That turned into a rant about my daughter. None of it was meant to apply to your daughter, lol. My oldest went through a 'girly' phase when she was little, but now she's become her own person, not a tomboy or a girly-girl, just Beth. :) I'm very proud of her.

My little twin boys like girly stuff too, lol. Sparkles and frilly clothes. I have pictures of them playing dress-up that ought to totally horrify them when they're teenagers.


But I felt like my adviser had no room in her feminist professional views other than to expect me to behave like a man.
This is so common, among feminists and people in general. I feel it's less a matter of expecting women to act like 'men', and more a matter that people of both genders in professional careers are expected to put their work ahead of their families. There's a profound lack of paternity leave and accommodations for working fathers, just as there's a lack of maternity leave and accommodations for working mothers. Society seems to think children should come second. It's difficult to fathom why this is, since without children there would soon be no more society, but there's a real prejudice against children at work here.

[minkajane]

I am very much enjoying this thread! I've been finding myself to be more and more staunchly feminist the older I get (I'm 26, but I've been thinking this way since I was 16 or so). My main cause is birth and breastfeeding. Women are abused in birth, just flat-out abused. And they are THANKFUL for it! That's the part that gets to me. They've been so trained and conditioned to think of birth as this horrible thing, that it's so painful they couldn't possibly be strong enough to handle it without drugs, and that they should just be a good girl and do what the doctor tells them to do. Then when iatrogenic problems crop up and the doctor "saves" them or the baby, they're so grateful to be saved from their faulty bodies.

Then comes the breastfeeding. They are expected to not let the child interfere with their independence and continue the same lives they had before children. They have to feed the baby when the parents decide it's time, not when the baby is hungry. It's no wonder so many women think they don't have enough milk!

When women talk about their births, it's so hard to keep my mouth shut when they go on and on about the wonderful epidural and how great the birth was, when they had an elective induction, pit, pushed on their backs, and had a huge episiotomy. I don't want to take away from the joy of their birth, but I would so love to be able to help people realize that this is NOT NORMAL and that birth could be so much more. I feel like I'm helping perpetuate the myths surrounding birth and breastfeeding if I don't say something, but I realize that it wouldn't do anything but upset the woman if I did, so I bite my tongue. I try to dispel the myths before the situation arises by increasing awareness of informed consent and refusal, alternative birth methods, and the risks of intervening in the process. I know of a few people who have investigated birth because of me and at least two who are very adamant that they will be birthing all their babies at home. So at least I'm making some difference.

[delfin]

I am very much enjoying this thread! I've been finding myself to be more and more staunchly feminist the older I get (I'm 26, but I've been thinking this way since I was 16 or so). My main cause is birth and breastfeeding. Women are abused in birth, just flat-out abused. And they are THANKFUL for it! That's the part that gets to me. They've been so trained and conditioned to think of birth as this horrible thing, that it's so painful they couldn't possibly be strong enough to handle it without drugs, and that they should just be a good girl and do what the doctor tells them to do. Then when iatrogenic problems crop up and the doctor "saves" them or the baby, they're so grateful to be saved from their faulty bodies.

Then comes the breastfeeding. They are expected to not let the child interfere with their independence and continue the same lives they had before children. They have to feed the baby when the parents decide it's time, not when the baby is hungry. It's no wonder so many women think they don't have enough milk!

When women talk about their births, it's so hard to keep my mouth shut when they go on and on about the wonderful epidural and how great the birth was, when they had an elective induction, pit, pushed on their backs, and had a huge episiotomy. I don't want to take away from the joy of their birth, but I would so love to be able to help people realize that this is NOT NORMAL and that birth could be so much more. I feel like I'm helping perpetuate the myths surrounding birth and breastfeeding if I don't say something, but I realize that it wouldn't do anything but upset the woman if I did, so I bite my tongue. I try to dispel the myths before the situation arises by increasing awareness of informed consent and refusal, alternative birth methods, and the risks of intervening in the process. I know of a few people who have investigated birth because of me and at least two who are very adamant that they will be birthing all their babies at home. So at least I'm making some difference.


ther's this great author im reading, who talks a lot about what she calls the robotization of mothers, of the patriarchal mothers, handling all desicions and care of children to whomever wears a uniform. Her name is Casilda Rodriganez, and her books are free for dowload at her wbsite, but she is spanish! I highly recommend her.

[TwinsTwicePlusTwo]

I am very much enjoying this thread! I've been finding myself to be more and more staunchly feminist the older I get (I'm 26, but I've been thinking this way since I was 16 or so). My main cause is birth and breastfeeding. Women are abused in birth, just flat-out abused. And they are THANKFUL for it! That's the part that gets to me. They've been so trained and conditioned to think of birth as this horrible thing, that it's so painful they couldn't possibly be strong enough to handle it without drugs, and that they should just be a good girl and do what the doctor tells them to do. Then when iatrogenic problems crop up and the doctor "saves" them or the baby, they're so grateful to be saved from their faulty bodies.

Then comes the breastfeeding. They are expected to not let the child interfere with their independence and continue the same lives they had before children. They have to feed the baby when the parents decide it's time, not when the baby is hungry. It's no wonder so many women think they don't have enough milk!

When women talk about their births, it's so hard to keep my mouth shut when they go on and on about the wonderful epidural and how great the birth was, when they had an elective induction, pit, pushed on their backs, and had a huge episiotomy. I don't want to take away from the joy of their birth, but I would so love to be able to help people realize that this is NOT NORMAL and that birth could be so much more. I feel like I'm helping perpetuate the myths surrounding birth and breastfeeding if I don't say something, but I realize that it wouldn't do anything but upset the woman if I did, so I bite my tongue. I try to dispel the myths before the situation arises by increasing awareness of informed consent and refusal, alternative birth methods, and the risks of intervening in the process. I know of a few people who have investigated birth because of me and at least two who are very adamant that they will be birthing all their babies at home. So at least I'm making some difference.
Yes, everything you said is spot-on. I'm not good at keeping my mouth shut about birth, and have opened up some of my friends' minds to natural birthing practices. I've managed to make some enemies with my opinions too, but the positive effects are more than worthwhile.

I've had (and am continuing to have) too many of my own issues with breastfeeding to be much of a spokeswoman for that. :(

[chirp]

subbing while i catch up on such a great thread!!!

glad i found this!!

[minkajane]

Another thing I see a lot that drives me absolutely batty is the difference in attitudes towards dating and sex. Men are always talking about sitting on the porch with a shotgun when their daughters go on dates. I was watching Click with Adam Sandler last night and there was a scene where his kids made some comment about sex (I forget what it was) and he said, "How do you even know about that? You shouldn't even be thinking about that for another ten to thirty years. Ten for you (gesturing towards his son), thirty for you (gesturing towards his daughter)." I hate the attitude that boys should be encouraged to date in their teens, but girls need to be locked up till they're 30.

[ursusarctos]

Another thing I see a lot that drives me absolutely batty is the difference in attitudes towards dating and sex. Men are always talking about sitting on the porch with a shotgun when their daughters go on dates. I was watching Click with Adam Sandler last night and there was a scene where his kids made some comment about sex (I forget what it was) and he said, "How do you even know about that? You shouldn't even be thinking about that for another ten to thirty years. Ten for you (gesturing towards his son), thirty for you (gesturing towards his daughter)." I hate the attitude that boys should be encouraged to date in their teens, but girls need to be locked up till they're 30.

YES! I had that same thought process when I watched that movie too! Argh, how annoying! That movie was chock full of irritating cultural standards being taken for granted though...

[transformed]

Is it at all a feminist issue that I cannot get a job because I "dont have job experience" due to staying at home with my children? I am irked. It is a freaking lot of work to raise kids. :irked: I suppose it would apply to a man also....I dunno...

[Teenytoona]

Another thing I see a lot that drives me absolutely batty is the difference in attitudes towards dating and sex. Men are always talking about sitting on the porch with a shotgun when their daughters go on dates. I was watching Click with Adam Sandler last night and there was a scene where his kids made some comment about sex (I forget what it was) and he said, "How do you even know about that? You shouldn't even be thinking about that for another ten to thirty years. Ten for you (gesturing towards his son), thirty for you (gesturing towards his daughter)." I hate the attitude that boys should be encouraged to date in their teens, but girls need to be locked up till they're 30.


Oh god, how I hate this attitude. Yes I see it alot. I also hear it here and there in casual conversation, esp at work (I work in a male-dominated profession).

Is it at all a feminist issue that I cannot get a job because I "dont have job experience" due to staying at home with my children? I am irked. It is a freaking lot of work to raise kids. :irked: I suppose it would apply to a man also....I dunno...


I think it is. If it were a man who stayed at home with the kids, I'm sure he'd be more "saintly" in others' eyes.

ITA on the birthing issue too.

I'm enjoying the discussion on "cool dads and neurotic moms" I quite agree there too.

Wish I was feeling more analytical and deep today, but just wanted to pop in with an "I hear you."

[Hazelnut]

Yeah one of the things I love about living in the suburbs is that it's not nearly as homogenous and conservative as I thought, AND AND I get more respect as a SAHM. Yeah I read the news, but for now as a SAHM and barely pt wahm, I have no desire to hear all the public discourse bashing mothers and SAHMs that I hear so often when I dip my foot in the topic online elsewhere, or when I am out with childless friends.

Also that "lock your daughter up" humor? It's not even funny anymore, if it ever was! So trite. I think if a comedian put a spin on it more often, it would be original.

[transformed]

I was listening to an interview on the radio this morning (from July when the Warped Tour was here) and the DJ said "So, what do you think about all the chick bands on the tour? Do you think that was deliberate? "

"Oh yeah, just luck..."

:irked:

:tsk

[simplespirit]

subbing...

[princesstutu]

Is it at all a feminist issue that I cannot get a job because I "dont have job experience" due to staying at home with my children? I am irked. It is a freaking lot of work to raise kids. :irked: I suppose it would apply to a man also....I dunno...

Definitely a feminist issue! I've started listing the work I did as a SAHM as volunteer work. :lol

[basje]

Subbing

[greenmamapagan]

Gald to see this thread is still alive :) FAK so can't catch-up. Have you seen this:
http://mothersforwomenslib.com/2009/09/14/fourth-carnival-of-feminist-parenting/

[oceane]

hi everyone! :wave I'm pleased to see this thread and hope to join the discussion. gotta go right now though.

[princesstutu]

I think something that's kinda dangerous to the well-being of little girls is to negatively judge them for being "too girly". How can one be too much of a girl? If a girl likes stereotypically girl things (such as the color pink and sparkly stuff and being a princess), that's okay. Us making a big deal about it (even if only mentally) is tantamount to feminists claiming sahms set back the movement.

We are allowed to be however we want to be. Even if it falls within the realm of "stereotypically feminine". It's not my job or desire to redefine femininity. I am inherently feminine because I am female. And it's okay, no matter how I represent that.

[ursusarctos]

I think something that's kinda dangerous to the well-being of little girls is to negatively judge them for being "too girly". How can one be too much of a girl? If a girl likes stereotypically girl things (such as the color pink and sparkly stuff and being a princess), that's okay. Us making a big deal about it (even if only mentally) is tantamount to feminists claiming sahms set back the movement.

We are allowed to be however we want to be. Even if it falls within the realm of "stereotypically feminine". It's not my job or desire to redefine femininity. I am inherently feminine because I am female. And it's okay, no matter how I represent that.

ITA. There's only a problem when there is a prescribed, non-negotiable way to be feminine (or masculine for that matter). A girl being forced to wear skirts and pink for no reason other than that she is a girl (like my mom in the 60s) is something completely different from a little girl feeling happy and girly when she wears skirts and pink and therefore making those the center of her wardrobe (me as a child).

[oceane]

I think something that's kinda dangerous to the well-being of little girls is to negatively judge them for being "too girly". How can one be too much of a girl? If a girl likes stereotypically girl things (such as the color pink and sparkly stuff and being a princess), that's okay. Us making a big deal about it (even if only mentally) is tantamount to feminists claiming sahms set back the movement.

We are allowed to be however we want to be. Even if it falls within the realm of "stereotypically feminine". It's not my job or desire to redefine femininity. I am inherently feminine because I am female. And it's okay, no matter how I represent that.

I agree. But I also think it's often difficult in this society to know when behavior or preferences are forced on girls/sahm/us because of gender stereotypes and societal expectations. but you're absolutely right, shaving my legs or wearing nail polish does not make me any less feminist in my opinion.

[village idiot]

I think something that's kinda dangerous to the well-being of little girls is to negatively judge them for being "too girly". How can one be too much of a girl? If a girl likes stereotypically girl things (such as the color pink and sparkly stuff and being a princess), that's okay. Us making a big deal about it (even if only mentally) is tantamount to feminists claiming sahms set back the movement.

We are allowed to be however we want to be. Even if it falls within the realm of "stereotypically feminine". It's not my job or desire to redefine femininity. I am inherently feminine because I am female. And it's okay, no matter how I represent that.

Yeah that.

I agree. But I also think it's often difficult in this society to know when behavior or preferences are forced on girls/sahm/us because of gender stereotypes and societal expectations. but you're absolutely right, shaving my legs or wearing nail polish does not make me any less feminist in my opinion.

And that too.

[chirp]

going along the same lines that it's kinda dangerous to look down on a young girl's behavior for being girly...i think it just opens up a can of worms to call it girly no matter who's doing it.

my grown man husband loves flowers and butterflies. it was his idea to have a brightly colored butterfly garden. my son carries around baby dolls and likes to play dress up with jewelery and my clothing.

if i were to call their actions "girly" i would be saying that somehow their actions were unfitting for boys. when they're not. they are just part of who they are.

with a *hopeful* little girl on the way...i am so happy to be able to pass on the physical knowledge of being a woman to someone. but i recognize that i have to be careful with how i present girl and womanhood in general. We don't have television. So if she is genuinely interested in princess characters, and wearing make up then so be it. I think I can trust that she's not being programmed through someone else's standards. I wouldn't want to take away who she is just to fit my idea of "womanly." My mom has been telling me to carry a purse all my life...if my child decides that she would like to carry a purse then so be it. As long as it wasn't my mom who put her up to it.:wink

[princesstutu]

going along the same lines that it's kinda dangerous to look down on a young girl's behavior for being girly...i think it just opens up a can of worms to call it girly no matter who's doing it.


I agree, of course. Given that this is the language we currently couch these discussions in, I used it. I try to revamp the language, but it's a big job. In conversations with like minds, I tend to let my language guard down a bit.

Thanks for the reminder, though. :thumb

[chirp]

I agree, of course. Given that this is the language we currently couch these discussions in, I used it. I try to revamp the language, but it's a big job. In conversations with like minds, I tend to let my language guard down a bit.

Thanks for the reminder, though. :thumb

of course!! even i had trouble coming up with another word that was not "girly" but allowed mdc readers to get what we were talking about.

foofoo? lol. i think that's pretty judgmental. i'd prefer someone call my son girly...than foofoo. at least girly doesn't HAVE to be an insult...it just depends on who's saying it and how they mean it.

[~D~]

I wanted to comment if that's ok. I've been :lurk b/c I really think I have a lot to learn on this for many reasons. But this is what I really wanted to say about the word 'girly'... Chirp, I looked for a definition for this word and this all I came up with:
girl⋅ie
  /ˈgɜrli/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [gur-lee] Show IPA
–adjective Informal.
1.featuring nude or scantily clad young women: a girlie show; girlie magazines.
–noun
2.Offensive. a term of address used for a girl or woman.
Also, girly.

Origin:
1940–45; girl + -ie
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.
Cite This Source
|
Link To girly
girl·ie also girl·y (gûr'lē)
adj. Often Offensive

1.Featuring minimally clothed or naked women, typically in pornography: girlie magazines.
2.Weak, timid, or effeminate. Used of men.

So if something is deemed 'girly' it literally means offensive and weak? :eek Wow.

[chirp]

I wanted to comment if that's ok. I've been :lurk b/c I really think I have a lot to learn on this for many reasons. But this is what I really wanted to say about the word 'girly'... Chirp, I looked for a definition for this word and this all I came up with:
girl⋅ie
  /ˈgɜrli/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [gur-lee] Show IPA
–adjective Informal.
1.featuring nude or scantily clad young women: a girlie show; girlie magazines.
–noun
2.Offensive. a term of address used for a girl or woman.
Also, girly.

Origin:
1940–45; girl + -ie
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.
Cite This Source
|
Link To girly
girl·ie also girl·y (gûr'lē)
adj. Often Offensive

1.Featuring minimally clothed or naked women, typically in pornography: girlie magazines.
2.Weak, timid, or effeminate. Used of men.

So if something is deemed 'girly' it literally means offensive and weak? :eek Wow.


somehow i'm not surprised.

dictionaries are made by dictionary publishing companies who send out requests for definitions to authors, other publishers, and academics. sometimes they'll ask scientists or experts as the need arises.

those "chosen" few send back their definitions and the publishing companies synthesize them to create 1 defintion, or multiple, if the need arises.

i can't believe of all the people they petitioned for a definition of girly, not one of them took a non-derogatory stance on the word.

although the idea of being scantily clad...i'm wondering if the last people to come up with definitions for girly were in their 50s or 60s (or the last time they petitioned for a definition of girly was in the 50s or 60s) where the context was for "girly magazine."

still can't come up with an appropriate word. and we really shouldn't have to. we can just say, oh my child is interested in butterflies, flowers, trucks, babies, stuffed animals and play kitchens. without adding any emphasis on gender norms.

i'm wondering how you radical mommas have dealt with obvious differences in gender...that you thought wouldn't come up if you didn't foster it. but did anyway.

[oceane]

to be included in a dictionary it would also have been a documented historical meaning of the word, right? which doesn't necessarily mean the current publishers deliberately chose it but that it used to have that meaning! I think it's actually good that we know about words and their history and how they are/were embedded in power relations (though that was not mentioned in that dictionary).
I like what you said about simply describing the child's interestes without relating it to gender, chirp!

no children yet, but since my children will be surrounded by all kinds of influences early on, be it relatives, my friends, media... I guess it would be difficult to really pinpoint where gender differences stem from. plus: maybe they are just different traits of character being interpreted by us?
interested to hear what others who've btdt have to add.