the comment "anyone can be a mom"...

[LisainCalifornia]

Hi all,
I have posted here on the infertility board a few times, although my infertility days are behind me now. I am still infertile...but thankfully was able to get pregnant twice with the help of Clomid/progesterone suppositories/IUI. It took 2 years to get pregnant with my first, then with my second we used the same recipe (meds) and I got pregnant after 2 treatment cycles (that was way too easy, thank God!). We started trying to get pregnant with our 3rd (meds in hand, waiting for my period to return after almost 3 years of nursing) and that is when I found out I was postmenopausal at 33 (I was diagnosed with POF). We adopted our 3rd child from China and it was the BEST thing to happen to all of us. If you are considering adoption, I would be happy to talk to anyone about it.

Anyway, that is my background. I actually had a distinct feeling while growing up that I would not be able to get pregnant easily. My mom actually only had one pregnancy--me. So that was a clue...and probably led to my fears. But I also sensed that I would have trouble, and shared that with a few friends who thought it was weird to think that. When Mike and I started trying to get pregnant a few years after we got married I was hopeful and carefree. But after month after month went by and lots of sex and no pregnancy, it was like..."oh. tha't right--I expected this..." Did anyone else feel this way?

When I started treatment after a year of trying and was getting my blood hormone levels taken every month, I remember feeling that it was all so surreal. Charting my temps, taking the blood, doing the OPK's each month, having those awful infertilty tests (post-coital, anyone?) became a way of life that is so bizarre that if you have not lived through it you just can't imagine it. The pain of getting my period each month while other people I knew were getting pregnant by accident or after one month of trying were hard to take.

I will never forget going to this picnic with a group of friends and aquaintences and a woman there who was newly pregnant saying "My husband and I made a pact that if I did not get pregnant we would not stress about it or let it affect our relationship, because we know someone who tried for 5 years (with IVF's and 3 miscarriages) and she ruined her marriage because of it." I then asked her the million dollar question...

"how long DID it take you to get pregnant"...she paused and said "one month".:scratch It was so obvious to me that she was just so clueless as to the pain that infertility does bring to the lives that it touches. I personally think that my children are the most important thing in my life. To not "stress" about not being able to have them is like asking me to stop being human. People have negative emotions and stress when they are faced with huge life disappointments and health issues.

Recently I read the comment "anyone can be a mom" in relation to the fact that being a mom is not a thing of value. That really gave me pause--because obviously she was not saying that to be hurtful, but because she had never walked the infertility path with all of it's thorns and pain. What do you all think of the comment "anyone can be a mom..."?

Thanks for your opinions,
Lisa :)

[~member~]

I hate that saying. it's so untrue! and unfair. Being a parent means making a commitment to a child forever, and understanding that it is forever. It's not easy and it's not for just 'anyone'.
I don't like how unfair that saying is either. It totally devalues the strength of commitment, time and energy it takes to be a parent/mother/father.
just my .02

[AdinaL]

Originally posted by LisainCalifornia
"My husband and I made a pact that if I did not get pregnant we would not stress about it or let it affect our relationship, because we know someone who tried for 5 years (with IVF's and 3 miscarriages) and she ruined her marriage because of it."

:splat Yes SHE ruined her marriage. It has nothing to do with the infertility, or that her hubby may have had enough, or that she was truly depressed and needed help. As with everything in Infertility, it always seems that it is the woman's fault. Grrrrrr:splat

Anyway.

The idea that anyone can be a mom...well I am living proof that not everyone CAN. Coming up on 2 years..and I am still not a mom. I can't afford the $$$ that MIGHT help me become a mom. So no, not everyone can just go and be a mom. Wish it were true, but it isn't.

Now that is just in regards to fertility. I have met enough bad mothers to know that not everyone can be a mom, or at least not be good at it. So that really devalues the women who work for it and work at it...if anyone can do it it isn't very special when someone does it huh?

I also had a feeling that I wouldn't be able to get pregnant, from the time I was about 15. Never knew why, just always thought that. As I got older I figured that I was just being melodramatic and that I would be fine. Guess I should have paid more attention to the feeling. :shrug

And I DEFY that woman to not let infertility affect her relationship in some way.

[Suzetta]

I can only speak for myself...

to become a mother, took four years, $45,000 out of pocket, (In addition to a small fortune covered by insurance), and over four years of painful procedures, losses and almost unbearable emotional stress.

Most folks who find out my 'story' say they could never go through that much....I used to think that way too.

I have an amazing baby girl now...but through my efforts I have been in contact with many who are still struggling.

I think that the vast majority of people can get pregnant very easily. But being a mother takes so much more! :)

[AnnR33]

Sometimes all I can do is shake my head and walk away from comments like both of those. People who have never dealt with infertility can never really know what the hell they are talking about, just like I didn't know what the hell I was talking about before I had kids and thought I could be a mom and work full time :scratch (that's why I would not have a 2nd until i could stay home)
You have to fully experience it before you can understand it and what it means for you.
I find it sad that someone would say anyone can be a mom...it shows how little value raising children has since we see first had that NOT everyone can be a mom! You wouldn't say "anyone can do brain surgery or fly an airplane" and the same SHOULD go for being a parent-so sad that it is not this way.
Day after day we see children suffer at the hands of parents in obvious and subtle ways and it hurts "real" mothers to see this go on...especially when they want more children and can't have them.

And Adina, you already are a mother in so many ways, even without your baby, your dedication and passion already show your mothering skills! Hang in there!

Ann (TTC 14 mos)

[Laurel]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LisainCalifornia
[B]Hi all,
**I actually had a distinct feeling while growing up that I would not be able to get pregnant easily. But after month after month went by and lots of sex and no pregnancy, it was like..."oh. tha't right--I expected this..." Did anyone else feel this way?**

I can totally relate! I too had feelings that I would deal w/ infertility, even though as a youth I had no physical indications. My periods, etc. were totally normal. But even with the premonitions about it, nothing could have prepared me. I still found myself knocked off my rocker by the experience.

** "My husband and I made a pact that if I did not get pregnant we would not stress about it or let it affect our relationship,"**

I actually read a comment here at MDC awhile back that had a very similar feel. The poster basically said that if they couldn't have kids they'd just get over it and find another way to contribute to the world--and implied that the rest of us should do the same. My take is that it's very different to discuss a hypothetical situation than it is to actually deal with it. Infertility is about so much more than just not having kids--it's about losing your entire identity.

** What do you all think of the comment "anyone can be a mom..."?**

I agree with everyone else's response. This comment is extremely naive. Another thing that bugs me is the assumption of pregnancy/birth as a universal female experience and rite of passage. I understand that it is a profound bonding tool between women, but the fact is that not all of us have been there--even if we are mothers. It is NOT universal, and that fact hits even more home when you are one of the few left out.

This thread has made me wonder what are the most asinine comments you have experienced while going through infertility? The above comments definitely rank up there! The worst thing that was ever said to me was by a 21-year-old who was expecting her 3rd baby. She told me that God would never give us a trial that we couldn't handle, so she guessed that He didn't think I was ready to handle motherhood.:jaw The other worst was a sweet older woman who patted my hand and told me not to worry, someday I would "learn" how to get pg. Isn't ironic that because of not being able to conceive, the amount of knowledge I had about how conception occurs would probably fill a book, and with all her fertility, her knowledge would probably take up a paragraph or so?:D

[AnnR33]

OMG, don't get me started on asinine comments!!
Top ones...
"just relax, it'll happen when it's time" HATE HATE HATE this one
"I beat you" after my sister in law found out she was pregnant with her second after only trying for 2 mos and I had been trying for 1 year. I was so shocked she would say something so stupid and rude I just chalked it up to shock from finding out....
"isn't 2 enough?" what are they even thinking when they ask this??????
my favorite from my mom and MIL-"how do you expect to make another baby with your kids sleeping in your bed?"
UH-ya know you can have sex in places other than a bed! And since my first was still sleeping with us when DD was conceived we must have figured it out.

OK, now that I've vented I'm better...LOL:p

Sorry to steal your thread Lisa!
Ann

[AdinaL]

Asinine comments:

Relax, it'll happen when it is supposed to.(uh huh, stress is causing my infertility, that's it. Maybe if I meditate for a month and remain in a trance like state, dh can knock me up...)

Have faith, everything will work out. (yeah after two years...that is gonna magically work)

Stop trying, then you will get pregnant. That is always the way it works. (uh sure...cause trying hasn't worked...but not trying is surely the ticket!)

Maybe you weren't meant to have a baby. (Gee thanks sh*t head)

This must be G-d's plan for you. (goody.)

You obviously aren't ready for a baby, or you would have been pregnant by now. (ummm...hmmm...you think? so that explains women who get pregnant at the most inopportune times in their lives.)

Are you on the fertility drugs that make you have seven babies at a time? (huh?)

Is there something wrong with you or you dh? Are you having sex enough? What position do you use? (and a bunch more really personal questions)

blech.

[LisainCalifornia]

Thank you everybody--I really appreciate reading your points of view and your experiences...even as painful as some of them sound. I agree, that comment DOES devalue the commitment it takes to be a mom...whether by birth or adoption.


Adina, I know--when I heard that comment about the woman ruining her marriage it just made me ill...especially since it only took one month (just gone off BCPs and got pregnant the next month) for her to get pregnant, so she could never have any kind of idea what the other woman had been through. Sometimes it is so hard to be in public when you hear these comments, because you still want to be polite and keep the mood light. There you are with a plate full of potato salad, trying to feel normal when you hear a comment like this--and you suddenly realize that your two worlds are not even in the same solar system.

Suzetta, I have friends that are still struggling with this too--and I just feel so much for them. I am so glad that you were able to get pregnant through IVF. While you are going through it you don't dare think too positively, but at the same time you cannot help but think this time it might work for you.

Ann, I identified with what you said so much about thinking you could work full time before you had kids. I use to think that too--until I had my son Matthew and went "whoa! This is not going to work for us"...so I do know that when people make these comments they are just coming from a very different stance than those that have been through it. And that relax, it will happen when it's time is priceless. If I had just "relaxed" I would not have any of my 3 kids. Adopting from China was certainly not relaxing, it was very energy consuming and we had to step up to the plate every step of the way, but it is something that I am so glad we went through.

Laurel, it is so interesting that you and Adina and I all had these premonitions that we would find it difficult to get pregnant while younger. I know that without the fertility meds that I took (which I hated with a passion) I would have never gotten pregnant at all, and that is so shocking to me. But I think that somehow "knowing" that I would struggle with this ahead of time helped me--because I got off my duff and sought out doctors and asked for treatment early, rather than just living with it for years. Going through meno so early, if I had not been so proactive it would not have happened for me. And oh my goodness--what that old woman said to you!! If you did not laugh you would cry, right?

I appreciate you all taking the time to respond.

Hugs,
Lisa

[gonnabeamom]

I find this so disturbing for 2 reasons

The first is the idea that you can choose ahead of time what circumstances you will be in, and that you'll know how you'll react.

I can understand saying "I know doing that would make ME crazy, so I hope I never half to." but I just think it would be such a step forward if we could make individual choices about how we handle reproduction-because our culture can't seem to get enough of telling people what to do about this-Your too young, your too old, you have too much/too little career, you should have children, you should do everything to have them, or not doing anything "unnatural" to have them. It's such an intensely personal thing, what we can each handle and where the point of "this is too much" is reached.

The second thing is that it puts biological motherhood ahead of the act of being a parent. It's such an amazingly difficult job, and I think we handicap the women doing it at every turn, and yet think of what a huge gift it is when done with love and clarity. I know some friends mothers who have the biological part down just fine, and don't seem to get the rest of the job. I'd love to see the kindness and compassion and patience and humor and skill, and the zen of mothering recognized as the wonderful things they are, and smething to be aspired to instead of run down.

[pugmadmama]

Originally posted by LisainCalifornia
... What do you all think of the comment "anyone can be a mom..."?...

It can be hurtful on so many levels to hear that but, also, it can be untrue. If you're infertile and you can't adopt, then what?

I have an 11 year old son, had three miscarriages before having him and have not been able to adopt. I've met other women who were never able to have a child, either through birth or adoption. There is this idea out there if you really want a child, you'll find a way to make it happen. Well, some women really want children and there simply is no way to make it happen!

Personally, I blame Oprah. :LOL Okay, not really, just trying to use a little humor but it is a little true too. I mean, you can turn on the tv anyday and find "gurus" telling you how to get what you really want, the book store shelves are overflowing with the same but finding someone who will talk honestly with you about letting go of a very precious dream? That is much, much harder to come by. There is this idea that if you let go of something, then maybe you didn't want it in the first place, which is so untrue and so hurtful.

I don't know, maybe it's an "All American, up by your bootstraps" kind of mindset. But when the mindset is "anyone can be a mom" it hurts so many women. It hurts the women who are doing the hard work of good mothering and it hurts the women who couldn't, for whatever reason, be moms.

[Benjismom]

Lisa:

I am in almost the exact same situation as you and have been thinking about adopting a third child. In fact, I saw on your sig line months ago that you had two bio kids and one adopted and kind of wondered what your story was. I would love to hear about your experience--I had been told that we wouldn't be able to do it because we have two biological children. Your story gives me hope!

Please PM me if you get a chance--I couldn't figure out any way to contact you.

Thanks,

Beth, Mom to Benji (3/23/00) and Maggie (1/24/03)

[gonnabeamom]

Benji's mom,

I don't know about domestic adoptions, but the idea that you can't adopt because you have biological kids is utter nonsense.

I have two cousins who each have one biological child and then did adoptions in Russia. I know the older of the two tried the domestic route briefly, and then went to Russia, because at the time it seemed easier.

[LisainCalifornia]

Hi Beth,
I am sorry--I did not see your message till now. I would be happy to talk to you about our adoption.

I had the same worries as you--I had heard (from various people) that China wouldn't let you adopt if you already had bio kids...or that the adoption would need to be for "special needs" kids only. This is NOT true.

I think the best place to get reliable info about adopting from China (or anywhere, really) is to call an adoption agency in your area. Just look in the phone book--for us we looked under "adoption" and then looked for International Adoption agencies. We went with an agency in the next town over from us, and the experience was so wonderful. The couple who run the agency have 3 girls adopted from China and one boy from Thailand themselves, so they have been through it all. They gave us all of the initial info--such as requirements for all of the different countires. Most agencies will have programs from many different countries. We went in there with China in mind, but the agency gave us info to read on all of their countries so we could know the different requirements and waiting times and fees.

For China adoption you are usually grouped with 4-5 other families so that you can travel together to China to get your girls. The average age of referral is about 8-14mos old. Emma was referred to us at 11 months old, and my husband picked her up a month later, right around her first birthday. I stayed home with our other two kids--I just did not feel right leaving them with anyone (even grandparents) for 2 weeks, as they had never even been away from me for a whole night before. It worked out fine--it was very hard on my husband...but it was memories for a lifetime for him, and it gave him new insights on what it has been like for me to be home with the kids all these years :). He got very close with the other families in his travel group, and they all helped him out as he was the only one there by himself. There were a few single moms in the group, but they brought friends with them, so my husband was on duty 24/7 with Emma.

We have remained very close to those other families--our girls have a real connection as they are from the same orphanage. We all live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and get together every few months or so. One family in particular we are very close to--they had 3 (bio) boys under 5 years old when they got their daughter, and the dad went to China while the mom (Vickie) stayed home like I did. We called each other everyday while our husbands were in China and basically helped each other through it.

If you would like to email me, please do--I am happy to answer any questions.
hugs,
Lisa :)

[longjon's_wife]

Okay, this will probably be rather rambling, as extended nursing literally sucks my brain dry!

I just *knew* around 15 yrs. of age that *something* was wrong with me. I even told that to the OB/GYN I was taken to back then. He basically poo-poohed my feelings. And thus followed approximately 10 yrs of mainly no periods, or periods when it was a constant period. (Hope that was clear!) The medical establishment's grand idea was to put me on BCP. Yeah, that lasted a long time:rolleyes:

So I get married. And for the next ..........six..........years.......... we tried to get me pregnant. I didn't tell anyone this (friends or family) as I didn't want the constant barrage of "are you pregnant yet?" Everyone around me seemed to be popping with babies; and I still got the "when are you two going to have a baby?" questions.

I saw doctors. I had tests performed. During these six years my DH was a student part of the time and I was taking care of elderly grandparents. (in other words, I didn't have a paying job.) I say this because most of the tests, drugs, etc. were paid out of our own pockets. We didn't have the options many do (IVF or adoption).

The spring before we moved to our present location, I discovered the book TCOYF. Man, did this educate me (and I considered myself to be pretty educated already!). The next spring I had found _Fertility and Nutrition_ at a used book store. DH and I were popping vitamins and minerals like mad, which is how I discovered vit. A makes me nauseas! We made the move (relocation) as DH had gotten a much better job, we finally had some insurance, and I made an appt. with a specialist. I conceived the day before the appointment.

My world began to make sense when DS was born. I have truly found my calling. I'm would absolutely love to have another, but who knows? Early menopause runs in my family, and I'm likely dealing with some PCOS issues. It doesn't look really promising.

And as far as other people? I'm bitter, I truly am. There are still women around me having babies who probably shouldn't be; and giving no thought as to how easy it was for them. Family and friends think we're nuts 'cause DS has never been left with anyone (not even for 15 minutes) in the three years of his life. I'm still looking for real-life friends who think as we do and whose children can be playmates for DS.

I've rambled on as promised; and I hope I've been able to contribute something of value.

~also a Lisa

[EnviroBecca]

Almost anyone can get pregnant and give birth. That does not make her a mom. The discrepancy isn't as big as it is for men (that is, a much smaller proportion of women than men abandon or ignore the children they've produced, probably because of hormones) but some women who have produced children or even legally adopted children are not moms. A number of celebrities can be counted in that category. :shake

It's interesting that so many of you had "premonitions" of infertility. One of the first AP Websites I found had an article about how the mom had "healed from uterine cancer" via positive thinking and herbal therapy. Well, first of all, it was uterine fibroids she had; she apparently thought all tumors are cancer and hadn't done enough reading to know that it's common for fibroids to disappear spontaneously. But anyway, she claimed that the reason the fibroids were there in the first place was that she'd gotten the idea that she might not be able to have children, and the reason they went away was that she changed her mind! :rolleyes: I mean, I agree that positive or negative attitudes can play a role in health, but it's just not that simple! And her attitude was, "If I can do this, you can too. If you are infertile, it's because you're thinking the wrong thoughts," i.e. it's YOUR FAULT!!! :angry Never mind the stuff in her other articles about being in tune with your feelings and listening to what your body is trying to tell you....

I'm kind of the opposite: Despite having infrequent cycles all along, I've always believed that I had some chance of getting pregnant. In my first few years of sexual activity, I was ultra-paranoid about birth control and had a couple of pregnancy scares. Despite 17 months of TTC without success, I still think I am ovulating sometimes (like, 3 times in 17 months) and just haven't managed to catch those eggs. If positive thinking were all I needed, I'd have a baby by now!

I have been really irritated by the way some women take their fertility for granted or "joke" about it as if it's a curse. I have 2 cousins, both younger than I am, who have been insanely fertile: D got pregnant despite birth control at 18 and then used b.c. successfully to space her other 2 kids, conceiving each of them on the first try. J doesn't believe in b.c. and is expecting her 5th child, all of them <2 years apart. They don't know how seriously we're TTC (I've only dropped hints) but they do know about my cycle problems, so you'd think it'd be obvious to them that I might have fertility trouble...yet they make thoughtless comments about how easy it is to get pregnant, how I must not want kids or I would have some by now, etc. At one point, J was ranting about how people who are married but don't have kids are selfish and immature; I do know some "intentionally child-free" people who fit her description, but I felt I had to say, "Some couples don't have children because THEY CAN'T. I hope you're not judging them as selfish and immature when really they have medical problems." Her reaction was as if she had never even thought of that!! :hammer I love both cousins, they're good mothers, and I enjoy talking to them about other things...but at this point I cringe every time they mention anything about fertility. They just seem so clueless about the trouble and pain so many people experience.

OTOH, recently I talked to a former co-worker who's expecting her second child:
ME: So they'll be, let's see, 2 years 4 months apart.
HER: Yes, we thought that would be a good spacing.
ME: A success on the first try again?
HER: Second try. We are so lucky. We have several friends who have been through infertility, and it's just awful. I don't understand why we can get pregnant so easily and they can't; they don't deserve it any less than we do.
:thumb Now that's a good attitude!

[EnviroBecca]

My aunt just became a grandma due to the unplanned pregnancy of her college-student son and his girlfriend. In her response to my "congratulations and thanks for the baby pictures" e-mail, she went on and on about how she thinks it's a great idea to have children at a young age and said, "Isn't your biological clock ticking loudly by now???"

:splat As if the only possible reason I wouldn't have a baby by age 30 is that I haven't thought of it! :rolleyes:

The really odd thing is that this preaching about the joys of young parenthood is coming from someone who had a baby at 22 and put him up for adoption so he wouldn't inconvenience her, then didn't have any more kids until her 30s. :scratch

I can't think of anything nice to say in response, so I'm just not going to write her back.

[Laurel]

I just remembered one of my all-time favorite quotes that I thought you all would appreciate. "Having children doesn't make one a mother any more than having a piano makes one a musician."

I always saw myself as a "childless mother".

[Divina]

I am one of the lucky ones who has had no problems getting pregnant (and "keeping" the pregnancy). Believe me, I know exactly how lucky I am. I was reading this thread because I have four friends who are TTC now and are having problems, and two friends who have given up, and I wanted to see how some of you have dealt with the insensitive comments.

I was just going to lurk, but I felt like I should just put in my .02 that I think all of those comments are worse than insensitive. I also think people who say those things are trying to avoid really thinking or feeling what it would be like to have to go through such trials. As in many other situations, it's easier to "blame the victim" than to think or empathize.

I have to admit, having conceived so easily has made me feel guilty at times, as I have no idea why I get to have this and my equally wonderful friends have to go through such torture ( I don't know what else to call it).

[tessamami]

Kick me out, if you care to, but please don't knock "positive thinking" or whatever. I would never say that this is all in your head. Miracles do happen, every day and it is not weak or stupid to have hope. In addition to what you are working on physically, it may be a mental or spiritual breakthrough that makes the difference for you, or not. Please don't count it out.

When TTC my 2nd, I was worried that I would have trouble conceiving. It was not a real problem, but I guess it hid my fears of this 2nd baby dying. I say this to remind you all that even moms who conceive easily can have their problems, too. That some of us do appreciate having babies, and that being bitter, if you are, is really is not a space you want to stay in.

I am not a person with infertility issues, but I have been hurt by comments regarding the having of children. There was a time when I wasn't ready to have another, still being in mourning for my first and I felt really hurt when others said "well, you can have another". Like it was really that easy, emotionally. And after the "rape" I experienced with the first birth (it was not the birth I wanted) I had other issues, too.

My point? Women get all the credit when they "screw up" (not getting pregnant, losing a pregnancy, etc.) as if they can control everything, but don't get enough credit for their contributions, or the work involved in having a child - physical, emotional, spiritual.

Hugs to you all and best of luck in having the family you want.

[AdinaL]

tessamami - I appreciate what you are saying - but none of us have given up hope, or thinking positively - but being told to, "you need to just relax and not think about it, and you will get pregnant." discounts anything physical that might be contributing...it put the onus on us for not being "happy" and "relaxed" enough. (I know that isn't what you said.) I for one am as positive as I can get for as long as I can be - check out my senior member title. But when my period shows up for the 19th time in a row...i am a little less positive. I agree that miracles can happen at any time. And I am open to that. I would be thrilled. But that may not be all it takes.

As for people who conceive easily having problems as well - we are all very well aware of that. Being on this board you see your fair share of m/c, and problems. We know that being pregnant is not always a picnic, but we sure would like the chance to try it at least once.

As for being bitter...well, some days you are bitter. Some days you are angry. Some days you cry. Some days you laugh. But for you to come in and tell us that being bitter is not a place we want to stay in for very long, well that is shortsighted on your part, cause you haven't been in my shoes. Sometimes bitter is all I have to hold on to, to keep me from crying or locking myself in the bathroom all day.

Our anger and our bitterness is our own. We aren't saying that anyone is ungrateful for their kids, or anything else. We are saying that WE are upset, angry, bitter, unhappy. It has NOTHING to do with anyone else. It has to do with us. Do not tell us that we shouldn't feel the way we do...especially if you haven't been through it.

I don't want anyone to ever fell guilty about conceiving easily. Ever. That is stupid. I do want them to take the extra five seconds to think about what they are saying before they say it. Or they might get met with some bitterness. :)

[Laurel]

Agreeing with you completely, Adina!

I wish people realized what a significant loss infertility is, and that it is primarily a grief experience. Anger is a normal, predictable part of this process, and getting it out is actually healthier than stuffing it in. I wouldn't dream of going into the pregnancy and birth loss forum here and suggesting that people be more positive. I think most of us who are dealing with infertility put tremendous effort into dealing as positively as possible with the fertile world (and with ourselves), but sometimes you just need your own little place where you can vent to people who understand so that you *can* go out and be kind, understanding, and empathetic to everyone else who has their own kinds of problems.