"Gaskin Maneuver"

[veganmamma]

Am I the only person offended that Ina Mae went to Guatemala and learned this technique from traditional midwives who have done it for hundreds of years and then came back here and named it after herself? Hmmmm? I can't be the only one!! It drives me crazy!

[pamamidwife]

hmmm. yeah, but I guess it's been done for years by men. she's just joined the club.

[veganmamma]

I'll be sure to tell my montgomery glands about this!

[stafl]

I may be mistaken, but I don't think she's the one who named it that. She's just the one who gave lectures about it and spread the word to the medical community that a laboring woman can get on her hands and knees to help baby into a better position for birthing. I think she did a great thing by sharing what she learned (but wasn't it in Belize?) from watching indigenous people give birth.

[veganmamma]

No, she named it that herself.

[stafl]

It was Belize, not Guatemala
and she refers to it as "The All-Fours Maneuver" in every article I've read that she wrote herself.

Either way, it doesn't bother me at all. I think it's a much better option than the alternative methods of dealing with shoulder dystocia, like Zavanelli maneuver where doc shoves baby back up into uterus and sections him out.
What difference does it make what it's called?

[crazy_eights]

I agree- I believe it started to be called the "Gaskin maneuver" after she was published in an OB journal. That is pretty standard in obstetrics though - manouvers are refered to by the person that publishes and popularizes a maneuver. I'll take "Gaskin" over "McRoberts" anyday ;) .

[veganmamma]

I'm almost 100% sure she began the trend of calling it the "Gaskin maneuver" herself. I'll have to research it more. We discussed it at length in my class and I held the position of stafl and chava, but more than a few people agreed she began the trend. Could it not be the Belize maneuver? I think if she had any integrity she would make it a point to name it something appropriate. Ina May has done good things for midwifery, but I'm just not feeling the Ina May love. I don't agree with all her techniques, I don't agree with all her stances on issues and I really disagree with her going around acting like the queen bee midwife. I know a lot of people are her fans and will be all irritated with me, but she absolutely drives me nuts sometimes.

[veganmamma]

www.inamay.com/gaskin_maneuver.htm

I introduced the all-fours maneuver in the United States in 1976, after learning about it from a Belizean midwife who had, in turn, learned it from Mayan midwives in the highlands of Guatemala.

It is from the Guatemalan midwives. She was just taught by a Belizian MW.

She actually has a special link on her site about it. While she gives credit in this article, she obviously takes credit in general for the maneuver and bringing it into the limelight. It's one thing to be proud that you introduced a new technique and another to put on airs about how it's YOUR technique when you learned it from someone who learned it from women who have done this for hundreds of years.

Another white American steals credit for hundreds of years of brown skinned natives' ingenuity and dedication.

[veganmamma]

Originally posted by stafl
and she refers to it as "The All-Fours Maneuver" in every article I've read that she wrote herself.


What difference does it make what it's called?

She calls it the Gaskin Maneuver all over her website, no matter what she calls it in articles, she obviously calls it the Gaskin Maneuver herself.

It makes a big difference what it's called. I agree the Zavanelli maneuver is preposterous and very dangerous, but this is an issue of her taking the credit for other people's work. It is so offensive to me that she would do this. I don't see how it's any different than if a male OB did it.

It's like if I started calling Reggae, Laurenae just because I brought back some steel drums from Jamaica!

[Malama]

Bugs me too, Lauren.

i recently read an article about her and she did credit the midwives who taught her.... but it still bothers me a lot. I agree that it's the typical white person thing taking credit for a traditional practice.... ugh.

Interestingly, I read Spiritual Midwifery my first pregnancy and thought her to be so amazing. But since I started studying midwifery, I've looked at her techniques and beliefs in a different light-- and frankly there's A LOT i don't agree with. But then I'm sure that if you put 100 midwives in front of me, I wouldn't agree with many of them.

That said, she has, and continues to do great things for midwifery.

Karen

[Joyce in the mts.]

I don't guess I will ever learn to be brief...sorry.

I first read Spiritual Midwifery over 24 years ago, when I was pregnant with my oldest child, while living in a communal house in NC. I found the book very miraculous, because it expressed my deepest heartfelt desire for my son's birth, but I could not go to The Farm. I gave birth in a hospital setting and it was not pretty. I vowed that I would have a homebirth next time.

I never agreed with ALL that Ina May had to say, but I admired her. I still admire her, but I think that her notariety created a culture that has developed around her. She is still just another human being with human weaknesses and human strengths.

During my second pregnancy I met some ladies who had lived at The Farm for extended periods of time. They were very honest about their experiences there and with Ina May, and I let go of the stars in my eyes with regard to Ina May, and The Farm in general. Hey, it's a community made up of humans, with human nature and they are no different than you or me.

I won't get upset with Ina May for her humanity and hubris. I won't begrudge her those things because they are tools to facilitate learning; and that is true for all of us.

I whole-heartedly agree that the thousands of years of Mayan midwifery wisdom deserves all the respect and gratitude that we can sincerely muster, rather than being co-opted and renamed. There is no defense of the indefensible.

And at the end of the day, Ina May is just another woman, like every one of us. Nothing is stopping any of us from doing outstanding work in midwifery that may, as a side effect, garner us notariety. We would certainly come to understand more about that reality.

I guess one lesson might be to keep our own practices to a standard with which we feel comfortable and let others deal with theirs. Another might be, if we feel very very strongly about Ina May's actions, what is stopping us from making contact with her and respectfully expressing our concern about this issue?

After all, who is she?? Just another human being, and we can be sure that: 1- it will either make a difference....or, 2- it won't. Either way, all will have been done that is possible, to make a difference, and express concern about something that means a great deal. It occurs to me that one may get a reply as well, and get the real story from her.

You never know unless you try. It might be worth taking some time and reaching out to her.

[pamamidwife]

Wow, Joyce, you are so right on. I try hard to see the divine in other people when I start feeling negative about them, and my snarky comment wasn't a result of that action.

I think that not only is she human, but we all know how hard it must be to maintain your humbleness and graciousness when you become a celebrity. Seriously.

Yes, Joyce. :)

[veganmamma]

Originally posted by Malama
Bugs me too, Lauren.

i recently read an article about her and she did credit the midwives who taught her.... but it still bothers me a lot. I agree that it's the typical white person thing taking credit for a traditional practice.... ugh.

Interestingly, I read Spiritual Midwifery my first pregnancy and thought her to be so amazing. But since I started studying midwifery, I've looked at her techniques and beliefs in a different light-- and frankly there's A LOT i don't agree with. But then I'm sure that if you put 100 midwives in front of me, I wouldn't agree with many of them.

That said, she has, and continues to do great things for midwifery.

Karen
I thought she was amazing too, and it was funny, my MWs who gave me the book mentioned it was inspiring but not a textbook for the way midwifery and birth works, and that it was easy to get caught up.

Since then I have found that many of her techmiques are highly debatable to say the least, I'm thinking of breech here, and yes, she is human, I agree. Joyce, I like your post and I agree, but as a celebrity, she is up for my scrutiny. If she is doing things I disagree with, I'll call her on it. It doesn't mean I don't think she's done great things for midwifery.

I think she really does view herself as the queen bee of midwifery, and that bothers me, but not as much as the "Maya maneuver" being called the Gaskin maneuver." Whether or not she is a celeb, it is offensive. I want to revise my analogy to be, what is Sting said he got reggae from Jamaica, and then continually called it and allowed it to be called "stingae" or something like that? It would be super offensive. Since I am a nobody the analogy didn't work as well.

A ton of stuff goes on at the Farm I disagree with, but good things happen to. Fly in breeches, not that I'm crazy about her technique, fly in twins, VBACs, etc. I choose not to associate the cultural aspects of the Farm with the midwifery aspects because if I do, I will completely discredit the whole lot and with Ina May's celeb status I think that would do a disservice to midwifery. Geez, I'm rambling again, I always do that.

Bottom line. Ina May is who she is. Human. The term Gaskin maneuver is still highly offensive and IMO it doesn't make her look better in this community, but worse.

[Malama]

Well, Ina May is one of those midwives who has chosen to promote the profession by working within the system. Many people believe in that and it has it's plusses and minuses, IMO.

I personally believe that midwifery has little to do with Obstetrics... the two are just so completely different.

Ina May is just a human, and she HAS brought a lot of interest in midwifery to the mainstream. I'm sure that there are some who would never have heard about midwifery if not for the work she's done.

AND, many women, who would have otherwise been sectioned we able to have vaginal births because she's so outspoken in her stuff about breeches, etc.... That's cool.

So, i respect that about her, but still think it's lame that she took the credit for the maneuver.

karen

[veganmamma]

Thank you Karen, I agree 100%.

[Joyce in the mts.]

Veganmama...

So why not ask Ina May about it? I mean it is possible to write her a letter or an email if this issue is near and dear to your heart as it seems to be. Yes, if you think she is up for your scrutiny, then by all means communicate with her about it. I really would do that if it bothered me that much. If she is accountable as a celebrity then why not act on it?

You could really provide her the opportunity to make a change.

I have reached out to well-known folks before on matters that mean alot to me and have often received a reply and seems to me this is one of those opportunities to really do something about a wrong. A well-written letter or email may reach her and make her think. What have you to lose?

Just a thought...Joyce in the mts.

[doulamomvicki]

Hey Joyce! This is a little :OT. What did those people say about living on the Farm. I was always curious about what it was like.

[Joyce in the mts.]

Doulamomvicki...

I have PM'd you with regard to your OT question, so as not to highjack the thread.

Joyce in the mts.

[candiland]

lauren - what about her delivery of breeches do you not agree with? I'm just asking because my CPM learned how to do breech births the way Ina May does, and has never had any problems or difficulties.

[Quirky]

:wave Add me to the "cultural appropriation bugged me too" list. It jumped out at me when I read her Guide to Childbirth.

And what exactly is her method for dealing with breech deliveries? Reading Spiritual Midwifery (at least as far as I got, I got about halfway through before I put it down) it seemed like her method was "cut a huge honkin' episiotomy." :eek

[Tanibani]

:OT
Originally posted by Joyce in the mts.
Doulamomvicki...

I have PM'd you with regard to your OT question, so as not to highjack the thread.

Joyce in the mts.

Me too please.

[veganmamma]

In general, it is overmanagement, but it is the way she moves the baby's body that doesn't make sense. It's like she forgets how the baby is positioned inside the mother. She had an experience where they baby's arm was in a funky position and either she had a bad outcome and got scared, and now she has a big rigamarole with the way you move the baby all around as it is born. Really, breech babies tend to fall out on their own, yk? Really small movements of some key body parts may help if there is a problem with the mechanics. Anyway, from what I understand, there are some intense moments on her video on assisting breech where the women are screaming in agony. I have decided not to watch it for the time being, but I did watch a classmate describe it in detail with a pelvis and a doll. Sorry to get off topic. Joyce, I've heard lots of yucky stuff about living on the Farm too. You can forward me the pm if ya want. :)

[milk4two]

Me four! Me four! (please) ;)

[Quirky]

:o I also will admit to a burning curiosity to hear about real life on the Farm.... :o

[Joyce in the mts.]

Curious Ladies...sorry to post such an OT post to this thread and I mean no disrespect to the OP or to The Farm...

It' s really no big deal and I am sorry to have made it seem very mysterious.

I used to kind of penpal with Joanne Santana (great name isn't it? Just rolls of the tongue), one of The Farm midwives, 20+ years ago. She actually lived at the NY Farm...yes there was a NY Farm many years ago, which is now defunct to my knowledge. She was very nice, and frankly I don't remember much that she wrote to me over the time we exchanged letters, to be honest. But I had found a couple years ago, that Joanne Santana teaches midwifery at The Farm, and last time I looked at their website, she was in a photo there with some others. We never did meet and that is because I moved away, out west to apprentice.

The one woman I remember best was so beautiful, and a beautiful person also. She was an RN, and attended the same midwifery study group I did at the time, in upstate NY. I really really liked her very much. She was very honest about her feelings about her time at The Farm, pre-1982. She said that it was way too communal, at The Farm, for her, and that there was not really much privacy among the residents. She also indicated that while Ina May is held up as someone very special, that she was not her cup of tea though she respected her alot. Tovah also said that nothing was really yours, and that you really didn't have space. And I cannot remember why, for the life of me, but I DO know that many folks moved away by the mid-90's I think, and the population went way down. Of course there had to be many reasons for that.

I have met others but can't remember other than what Tovah told me....probably because we spent a bit more time together than just to meet and greet. She was mutual friend of a friend, so I had most opportunity to talk with her. It was over 20 years ago.

Sorry for putting the info here after saying I wouldn't, but after seeing the amount of interest, I figured I would just spill it.

Like I said, it is not really a big deal, but enough to have really made me take a more realistic look and realize that nothing and no one is perfect. I have no idea how things are there now, but I imagine that the population has balanced out, as well as other things...after all, many have gotten older, wiser and mellower with time.

That's it! Again, sorry for the OT nature of this post.

Joyce in the mts.

[stafl]

You can find out about The Farm at one of their websites. It is no longer communal, but read for yourself their history and what it's like there now. http://www.thefarmcommunity.com/
Phone numbers and other contact info can be found at their website (try looking in the midwifery section).

Joanne is still there, I only met her once though.
They are just normal, aging hippies. Just like my mother and her friends. And like my mother and her friends, I often disagree with some of their ideas (probably more often than not). That doesn't take away from how inspiring I (and many other women) have found Ina May's books to be or the importance of what she has done to change midwifery in the United States.

[veganmamma]

No offense taken on the part of the OP. :)

I have heard more stories re: social life on the Farm. 13 year olds marrying 30 years olds and what not. Anecdotal at best, so I won't talk about it because it isn't really fair to, but like I said, I choose to separate that from the MW side of the Farm because I need to for myself, yk?

[Joyce in the mts.]

Ok this is the bottom line and then I will shut up since I don't wish to promote nor participate in further negativity.

I shared facts related by someone who has been there and lived there, that The Farm was not always so wonderful- and in keeping with the OP, to say that, yes, Ina May is like everyone else....she has faults and warts and is not necessarily liked by everyone around her- that is how it is to be human; like all of us here; especially if we find ourselves in leadership positions or have them thrust upon us. And I hope that my posts have not offended anyone, because frankly, it's all stories from others' past that held some balancing wisdom for me, that I thought worth sharing in this thread, without tearing apart my, or anyone else's admiration/respect for either The Farm or Ina May.

And it is Ina May, (among many others) who for very many, has been inspiration to take the risk to homebirth, to find a midwife and even to aspire to that art as well. I can admire her without either putting her on a pedestal, or taking away from her integrity for being human. That's all...and I would like to think that that was the predominant point that others came away with from my posts, ultimately.

Furthermore, frankly, if I had the level of anger and concern that has been expressed about an issue as near and dear to my heart as expressed in the OP, then I would darn sure make some contact and ask about it rather than continue to feed negativity about it.

Everyone IS a somebody and has the right to ask the hard questions of those who are perceived as leaders whether they intend to be or are for us, or not. I have done so pretty often on many matters of great importance to me. I don't feel I am a nobody. It's only another human on the other end, after all.

Is it really fair to judge when you have no understanding of the situation? of whether the elders gave permission or not? Do you know? For sure?

See, because I, personally HAVE been given permission to use certain knowledge and call it other than its' traditional name by the particular teachers I have worked with for more than a decade. I was told it was ok from the horse's mouth. Now, I certainly wouldn't know how that appears to others. Surely others may choose to judge me, but it would be out of ignorance of the whole truth of which they are not privy, but why would they be? They were not there doing the work I did, learning what I learned, having that relationship.

Just a thought that occurred to me. But what do I know. Sorry if I have offended.

If anyone has further issue with me in particular, please PM me. I apologize to mods if I have offended rules or sensibilities.

Joyce in the mts.

[fourlittlebirds]

Back to the OP. :D

Personally, I think it's hilarious that something that women instinctively do in spontaneous unmanaged birth is being popularized as a "maneuver", as if it's something that somebody invented. :rolleyes:

As for Ina May, I agree that she has done great things in furthering the cause of homebirth, and I also agree that she is human and as such is not all-knowing nor all-wise, but unfortunately there are still a lot of midwives out there who do put her on a pedestal and blindly trust that she holds the key to birth Truth, and so the myths she has helped to create are perpetuated.

[veganmamma]

Well I heard bad things from a person who lives down the road from the farm, that's why I called it anecdotal at best and I separate any judgement in that area from my opinion of the midwifery side of the Farm. Not sure how that's feeding negativity.

She is human, but she is a role model and a celeb and she will face harsher criticism than this in her life. She has done good things, we all agree, but the naming of te gaskin maneuver is pretty lame and thoughtless, borderline narcissistic if you ask me.

Furthermore, frankly, if I had the level of anger and concern that has been expressed about an issue as near and dear to my heart as expressed in the OP, then I would darn sure make some contact and ask about it rather than continue to feed negativity about it.

Are you saying that I have no right to post that it bothers me unless I contact Ina May directly and talk to her about it? It also sounds like you are implying that I'm feeding negativity about Ina May and the Farm just for kicks. I'm not. I think this issue is race related and also an example of the way we do things in this country. I've talked to the elders in my midwifery community about this and I feel comfortable in my position.

Is it really fair to judge when you have no understanding of the situation? of whether the elders gave permission or not? Do you know? For sure?
What I said in my post was that it was anecdotal and not really fair to share with the group.

I'm really not understanding what you're trying to say in your post, to tell the truth.

The bottom line for me is that aside from my feelings on the Gaskin maneuver/Mayan Maneuver, I think Ina May has done good things for birth in this country. I take the good with the bad, but this issue in particular continues to bother me. I don't really understand why it's gotten so dramatic other than that the internet has no tonality and we are miscommunicating.

I'm not offended or mad or anything, just confused.
Lauren

[Joyce in the mts.]

Sorry for posting again...truly sorry.

I am very very surprised at what has been taken so far out of context. And NO, of course I don't really think anyone harbors anger "for kicks"...what an amazing leap. Please don't put words in my mouth! I don't even know you, why would I say such an ignorant thing?

Why IS it so outrageous to you, that I dare suggest voicing your valid concern, directly to Ms. Gaskin when common sense would say that she is truly the only one who can make the difference about it? I don't care a wit if you do or don't- and by all means the First Amendment says you have the right to say whatever you wish here about anything; we all enjoy that right. I NEVER said anywhere in my posts that you didn't have the right to speak out even if you choose not to do more than that.

Again with the words in my mouth...those are YOUR words not mine.

But, more simply since there is so much confusion, if I had grievance against you, and told everyone BUT you? Where is the good in that for me or you? How does that benefit the community? STILL won't get you anywhere and sure doesn't provide opportunity for redress of the grievance, does it?

My profuse apologies for suggesting a productive action that COULD benefit all concerned.

What could I have been thinking? I guess it is me who was confused, because I thought folks here would WANT to respectfully call a prominent figure perceived as having a fair bit of influence, on a grievance to pose real questions and invite her to rethink and change her actions (or at least explain the actions).

I guess respectful challenge to her actions by the community to which she is responsible, was never the point.

Have a peaceful and lovely day, all. Sorry I have wasted everyone's time and mods, please feel free to delete all my posts if I have been disruptive. That was never my intent

....Joyce in the mts.

[Justice2]

I can understand exactly what your point is, Joyce.


I do have a question for the OP...How is this a "race related" issue? I though that this issue was more similar to that of plagiarism, taking credit for someone else's work or idea.

[veganmamma]

Joyce, it's not outrageous to me that you would suggest that I call Gaskin on her "maneuver," but it sounded liek you were saying I shouldn't post it without immediate plans to call the Farm and tell them myself. That's all.

An Justice2, it's race related issue because a white woman plagarized a group of brown women's work. This is a recurring them in our society. Popcorn anyone? She has taken hundreds of years of cultural learning and turned it into a white woman's name and personalized it. She has taken the brown out of the maneuver. I don't think Ina May is overtly racist, but she must have a disregard for Mayan culture to do something like this.

[Justice2]

Veganmamma. I wasn't going to post an answer to your response, but I am. I am not trying to make waves. I am not trying to flame you or your thoughts.

Would this issue bother you as much if she had taken this idea from Celts or Britons or the Ancient Romans ? I think that the only reason this is a race issue (to you) is because you are making it so. People have been stealing other people's ideas for centuries. Regardless of color or race. IMO, voiceing that this is a "race" issue is part of what is wrong with our society...not the stealing in itself. I agree COMPLETELY that she needs to give more credit to the source of her education. I doubt highly that she decided to name the maneuver after herself because she couldn't stand to credit a brown skinned woman for having an original idea.

Again, these are just my thoughts. I am not trying to start a race debate.

Have a blessed day.

[veganmamma]

Sure, the idea of plagarism bothers me quite a bit. I just don't believe she would have done this were a white person/group to have coined the technique. Maybe moreso because she wouldn't have the chance because if a group of white people or a white person really did being using it as a technique they would have been recognized, but also because I believe that she and everyone else would have seen it less as her "discovering" it from the Mayan/Belizians and more of her popularizing it. I don't think this would be an issue she'd gotten it from the Celts because they would already have credit, and if not, everone includ Ina May would give it to them.

[Nosy Parker]

I think there's another POV you could look at it from. Ina Mae has always "worked within the system" and tried to promote midwifery methods to mainstream doctors and hospitals. Maybe she feels OBs would pay more attention to something called the Gaskin maneuver than they would the "Mayan maneuver." Something "invented" by an American might hold more credibility with them than something that has been done for centuries by uneducated people, or worse, is "instinctual." Personally, I wouldn't care if they called it "The Reverse Lithotomy Position" if it promoted a better way to handle shoulder dystocia. :shrug

[doulamomvicki]

:clap nosy parker

I was thinking the same thing. Many doctors have such a deep respect for Ina Mae.

[veganmamma]

I understand where you're coming from, but I just don't think it's acceptable. Maybe she should promote is as the Reverse Lithotomy Position. Doctors aren't the only people who's respect is important.

[crazy_eights]

You know, this thread sort of tangentially reminds me of of the "Dr. Jay Gordon" thread. I think the bottom line is that there are people that work within the system and those that work from without. In my opinion, we need both b/c truth be told, the radicals/rejectionists (those who work from without) push those that work from within. And yet, the vast, vast, VAST majority of the parents in the US buy into "the system" 110%. So if you can affect the system from within, you are going to reach more people and hopefully change the way that the overwhelming majority of US parents are treated. While those who work from outside the system might have more pure motives, be more ideologically "pure", often their language is such that it alienates the more mainstream. Just my $.02

[honey]

Different point of view here.

Traditionally, in all of the sciences, the person that identified a structure or phenomenon or system or equation or whatever, had their name attached to it. Not necessarily his or her choice, tradition.

Think about it a sec. There are literally hundreds, from chemistry (avogadro's number) to anatomy (purkinje fibers, epstein's pearls, bartholin's glands, fallopian tubes) Other maneuvers and processes (woods-screw, leboyer bath, lamaze breathing, APGAR, babinski reflex, kegels) etc

I don't think Ina May was just ego tripping and named it after herself. I think that she saw that women in America could benefit from it, and decided to teach what she had learned from her sister midwives. Because she was the one that taught it to the docs, her name was attached to it...and I for one will take gaskin maneuver over zavenelli's maneuver any day. Her dedication to teaching it has probably benefitted some babies, right?


An Justice2, it's race related issue because a white woman plagarized a group of brown women's work.

Plagarized? I don't doubt that our sister midwives all over the world have been aware of the benefits of the position for millenia. Did midwives in Belize or Guatamala really invent or create this position? We don't know who the first woman ever to get on all fours was, or which midwife first suggested it, and frankly it doesn't matter. Birth belongs to all of us.

It just needed a name in medical circles...and I'm cool with 'Gaskin maneuver'.

I'm grateful to Ina May for the work she has done for women and babies. We all share a common goal, to empower women and restore birth. Ina May has contributed to that, and she is my sister midwife.

[Justice2]

:clap

Well said, Honey!!! Ina May (according to other posters in this thread) DOES give credit to the women that showed her or taught her this maneuver.

[doulamomvicki]

:thumb I couldn't agree more!

[veganmamma]

I understand what you are saying, and I still disagree. I have a problem with fallopian tubes and montgomery glands as well. Just because tradition dictates something, doesn't mean it is acceptable. IM has done a lot for natural birth in America, and I'd choose her as my midwife over most OBs any day. I disagree with this practice, and I disagree with IM for furthering it. She is an incredibly intelligent person, and it should have occured to her.

[honey]

Originally posted by veganmamma
I understand what you are saying, and I still disagree. I have a problem with fallopian tubes and montgomery glands as well. Just because tradition dictates something, doesn't mean it is acceptable. IM has done a lot for natural birth in America, and I'd choose her as my midwife over most OBs any day. I disagree with this practice, and I disagree with IM for furthering it. She is an incredibly intelligent person, and it should have occured to her.



Happily, there is a trend to rename many of these structures with more appropriate names (as their namers die off) For example, Fallopian tubes are now being taught as uterine tubes....it makes a lot more sense and tells you where it is.

I respect your point of view, and understand your feelings. Remember when Anne Frye tried to get us to say yoni? We tried to, but no one knew what we were talking about.

So, I'm wondering, what would you prefer this position be called?

[onlyboys]

It also surprises me that she did not notice and change it. Perhaps she thought that using this method of naming, perpetuating the appropriation of minority would help draw some attention (much needed) to the honorable profession of midwifery, since this is named for a MIDWIFE and not an OB or other male scientist.

It surprises me that she did this (although I cannot say that it necessarily bothers me) because in at least 2 places in Spiritual Midwifery she states that named glands, etc., are not actually the "namers" they are the woman's. For example, "Skene's ducts--These are not actually Skene's; they are the woman's."

She seems to recognize the power of names and language and to neglect this or not notice doesn't seem like something she would do without thought or purpose.

I'm glad though, that there is a name for it. Now, we can say to an OB, "Would you use the Gaskin Maneuver?" And be able to reference it.

Amanda

[honey]

UOTE]It also surprises me that she did not notice and change it.[/QUOTE]


In the link veganmama posted, www.inamay.com/gaskin_maneuver.htm

Ina May refers to it repeatedly as the "all fours maneuver"

The authors of the study are the ones that call it "gaskin maneuver"

Should she have asked the Journal of Reproductive Medicine to retract the journal so it could be edited out? What else can she do to discourage it being called the gaskin maneuver besides call it the all fours maneuver?

If you have a great cookie recipe, and your family starts calling it 'Sally's Cookie Recipe" are you going to call them all on it and insist they call it "Betty Crocker's recipe?"

[onlyboys]

Should she have asked the Journal of Reproductive Medicine to retract the journal so it could be edited out? What else can she do to discourage it being called the gaskin maneuver besides call it the all fours maneuver?

No, I don't believe that she should have, and as I stated before, I'm not sure that the name actually bothers me at all. I was just pointing out the fact that Gaskin herself is usually more sensitive to such matters.

Amanda

[honey]

I was just pointing out the fact that Gaskin herself is usually more sensitive to such matters.

You are right...she is sensible about names and words, and the point I was trying to make is that she was in this situation as well.

That is why I pointed out that she calls it All Fours. It's other people that call it Gaskin. She has no control over what other people call it.


I disagree with this practice, and I disagree with IM for furthering it.

I just don't get why you think she is 'furthering it'. She didn't name it Gaskin and doesn't call it Gaskin.

have a problem with fallopian tubes and montgomery glands as well. Just because tradition dictates something, doesn't mean it is acceptable.

As onlyboys pointed out, she has bucked tradition by calling things by more sensible names...including All Fours.

I guess I am a little confused as to why she is being blamed for what other people call it, and don't see how it is her fault.

[veganmamma]

Originally posted by honey
If you have a great cookie recipe, and your family starts calling it 'Sally's Cookie Recipe" are you going to call them all on it and insist they call it "Betty Crocker's recipe?"
Actually my best friend created a cookie recipe that I use almost exclusively. I have become famous for "my" cookies, and somehow, I always manage to give her the credit. They are known around these parts and Jessica's Chocolate Chip Cookies. She's even of South American descent. Gawd how PC I am.

Sure, the all fours position works for me. That's what it is and that's what we know. And uterine tubes is awesome. Are we going to also have areolar glands? I'd like that very much.
L

[Plaid Leopard]

I just don't get why you think she is 'furthering it'. She didn't name it Gaskin and doesn't call it Gaskin.

Actually, she DID name it the Gaskin maneuver herself. At least, that is what she said when she gave a talk at a recent midwifery conference that I attended. She stated that after showing the maneuver to an OB (or to someone - I forget who exactly), they asked her what they should call it, and she said "The Gaskin Maneuver". Perhaps she doesn't actually call it that herself all the time but she is the one to have named it that.

When she said that at the conference I had the same reaction as the OP. But I do believe that, rightly or wrongly, the mainstream medical community probably takes that name more seriously than the "Mayan Maneuver", as another poster mentioned.

SO, yes, perhaps she should have named it something else - but she IS the one who brought it to the mainstream OB community and who worked to get it "recognized" here.

[veganmamma]

Thanks, I didn't have any good sources to prove she named it. :)

[JuicyPakwan]

This is a little late but about the breech thing. It was the doc she was working with that encouraged epis for breech. She was learning how to handle breech from him and had serious misgivings about the necessity of doing it and later refused to do them unless absolutely necessary. I purchased her video on breech birth and it is for the purpose of instructing on difficult breech. In cases of normal breech (by far and away the majority)Hands Off. So finish reading the book or watch the movie if you want to know what she really advocates.

About the name. I don't think it is a race issue and I agree it shouldn't be named after here just like the other names I hate.

But don't you guys think it's time we stop trashing ourselves and build women up instead of tearing them down. I think men do a pretty good job of it themselves. I'm not saying we have to agree with everyone but tearing Ina Mae apart for this is not productive. I agree that addressing her about this is the high road.

[veganmamma]

I didn't "trash" her, I said:
"Am I the only person offended that Ina May went to Guatemala and learned this technique from traditional midwives who have done it for hundreds of years and then came back here and named it after herself? Hmmmm? I can't be the only one!! It drives me crazy!"

It does bother me and offend me. I don't think that talking about the things I dislike about Ina May is tearing her down and therefore midwifery as a whole. I don't even think it's tearing her down. She is apparently and icon and no one is allowed to criticize her or even be offended by something she has done without being accused of taking low blows or harming midiwfery in general. I feel like half the time I've spent in this thread is saying, "Yes, she has done good things... yes she is respected..." Whatever, I dislike many of her practices, and I should be able to say so. I don't think I'm avoiding the "high road" by coming into a safe space and venting a bit about something she does I dislike.

She is about halfway inbetween what birth is in this country and where it should be. That's how I feel and I stand by it. You want to love her, fine, whatever, I don't and I don't need to to be a good birth advocate. When people say, "well, I think those gays should have civil unions but marriage is for straight people," they think they are being really progressive and many would argue they are working for gay rights. I say, they are almost as bad as the conservatives that want to keep queer folk in the closet. Halfway is not good enough and I won't stand by it.

[fourlittlebirds]

"Did midwives in Belize or Guatamala really invent or create this position? We don't know who the first woman ever to get on all fours was, or which midwife first suggested it, and frankly it doesn't matter. Birth belongs to all of us."

Exactly. It's absurd to name it after anybody, even the midwives in Guatamala. Like I said before, this is a "maneuver" that birthing women do spontaneously when not guided. No one invented it. It is wired into us. When we forgot about instinctive labor, we forgot about everything associated with it, and when someone rediscovered it for the obstetrical world, she got credit. To give her credit for that is fine with me; she deserves it. What bothers me is that it is implied that she (or some other midwives) invented it.

[honey]

Originally posted by veganmamma
It does bother me and offend me. I don't think that talking about the things I dislike about Ina May is tearing her down and therefore midwifery as a whole. I don't even think it's tearing her down. She is apparently and icon and no one is allowed to criticize her or even be offended by something she has done without being accused of taking low blows or harming midiwfery in general. I feel like half the time I've spent in this thread is saying, "Yes, she has done good things... yes she is respected..." Whatever, I dislike many of her practices, and I should be able to say so. I don't think I'm avoiding the "high road" by coming into a safe space and venting a bit about something she does I dislike.

She is about halfway inbetween what birth is in this country and where it should be. That's how I feel and I stand by it. You want to love her, fine, whatever, I don't and I don't need to to be a good birth advocate. When people say, "well, I think those gays should have civil unions but marriage is for straight people," they think they are being really progressive and many would argue they are working for gay rights. I say, they are almost as bad as the conservatives that want to keep queer folk in the closet. Halfway is not good enough and I won't stand by it.


I am glad that you know what birth 'shoud be'! Now, could you please tell me?

It is very common for student and new midwives to feel this way, a normal part of becoming a midwife. We go through a stage where we rebel against the status quo, then other midwives, you will even feel this way about your preceptor midwife at some point as you define the kind of midwifery that you think is ideal.

Then you go out there and become a real midwife and get knocked off your high horse. You become humble and realize those old ladies kinda know what is going on! It is a lot like adolescence. So, I support you in your journey! You are passionate about birth, and that will get you there!

[honey]

Originally posted by blueviolet
"Did midwives in Belize or Guatamala really invent or create this position? We don't know who the first woman ever to get on all fours was, or which midwife first suggested it, and frankly it doesn't matter. Birth belongs to all of us."

Exactly. It's absurd to name it after anybody, even the midwives in Guatamala. Like I said before, this is a "maneuver" that birthing women do spontaneously when not guided. No one invented it. It is wired into us. When we forgot about instinctive labor, we forgot about everything associated with it, and when someone rediscovered it for the obstetrical world, she got credit. To give her credit for that is fine with me; she deserves it. What bothers me is that it is implied that she (or some other midwives) invented it.

I totally agree!

All the midwives that I've worked with call it 'all fours'. So for those that feel offended by 'Gaskin', for crying out loud, they don't have to use it, all fours makes a lot more sense.

[veganmamma]

Originally posted by honey
I am glad that you know what birth 'shoud be'! Now, could you please tell me?

It is very common for student and new midwives to feel this way, a normal part of becoming a midwife. We go through a stage where we rebel against the status quo, then other midwives, you will even feel this way about your preceptor midwife at some point as you define the kind of midwifery that you think is ideal.

Then you go out there and become a real midwife and get knocked off your high horse. You become humble and realize those old ladies kinda know what is going on! It is a lot like adolescence. So, I support you in your journey! You are passionate about birth, and that will get you there!
I said that's how I feel about it. I also have feelings about where we should be in regards to "race relations" and acceptance of people's sexual identities. I would use the term "should be" in those cases too. To me it sounds like you are saying we rebel against the status quo and then just accept it. If everyone did that there would be no advancements. Ina May may be wonderful in some areas, but I disagree with her in many areas, and I'm not talking episiotomies, I'm talking about hands on rotation during breech deliveries causing unnecessary pain to mothers and babies amongst other things.

Anyway, I know it's not your intent to talk down to me, so I will not take it that way. I am hypersensitive lately, probably highly hormonal.

[honey]

To me it sounds like you are saying we rebel against the status quo and then just accept it. If everyone did that there would be no advancements.

What I'm saying is that it is our attitude towards our senior midwives that changes. The status quo always changes! Can you imagine 30 years ago how wacky everyone thought Ina May was? And what about the first waterbirth midwives? And now, they aren't so wacky.

We start out idealistic, which is good! We want to make improvements and make birth the way *we* think it should be. But, other midwives feel the same way, and their vision might be different than yours. And that is ok.

But we still should show respect our senior midwives. The work they did is the reason that we can do the work we do!

You are right, my intention is not to talk down to you. I respect you a lot, and I admire your passionate spirit! You are an advocate for women and babies, and that is great.

[midwifecpm]

I attended a Midwifery Conference a few years ago where Ina Mae was speaking.

She showed a movie and slide show during one of her presentations. I was moved at how she showed the audience all the places and people that she has been involved with over the years. There were midwives on the film who were 90 years old and midwives who didn't speak a word of English.

She credited every person that she she has learned from over the years also. She spoke about how she went and learned the "Gaskin Maneuver" and was very complimentary to those she has learned from.

While I am not on the Ina Mae bandwagon, I do believe that she is an asset to the midwifery community.

Just my opinion,

Lisa

[marymom]

If someone is having strong feelings about this I suggest they email Ina May, she may(or may not) be able to clarify...
~mary