naomi wolf's "msconceptions"

[Elphaba]

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[Iguanavere]

but I did see her interview on the Today show and read an excerpt from the book.

yeah, I agree, nothing new for people like you and I....but at least her followers or admirers will become a little more educated.

Anything to help women realize that they don't have to lie there on their backs is good!

[ColesMom]

I read it and I had a similar reaction in terms of being very surprised at how little she really gleaned about having the birth she wanted. I've read all of her books and she always struck me as an amazing intellect. I also took issue with her negative descriptions of LLL and of natural childbirth.

[Elphaba]

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[ColesMom]

That's what surprised me - it seems so intellectually uncurios/lazy of her to decide that natural childbirth is just some unattainable thing and that LLL advocates some unattainable goal for working mothers because there's no way to pump and continue nursing for very long. Very disappointing.

On a positive note though, she did do a nice expose of the cesarean rate in this country and of the doctors' motivations in keeping the rate high.

[kama'aina mama]

I have actually been avoiding this book, but may have to break down and read it if only to see if it is as bad as it sounds. It does seem that her experience bears out a lot of the statistics about women with higher levels of education (and income) often having a harder time with natural birth and having higher C rates. Could it be arrogance? or maybe a Pollyana attitude that women of a certain level of privledge fall victim too? "Yes, I've heard of people not having their birth plan not work out, but those sorts of things don;t happen to me!". I don't know. I find it all very frustrating and I am not sure Ms Wolf is going to doing anything but muddy my mental pool still further.

[Elphaba]

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[srain]

I think a lot of academics forget they have real, physical bodies; rather than the symbolic bodies they write about all the time! That's my explanation, at least, for the general ignorance about birth/ motherhood/ hospitalization experiences among so many academics. For some of us, it may also be a stage-of-life issue. I was in a sociology PhD program; I dropped out, but most people were in it until they were about 30, and most definitely NOT having children. We were all well-versed in birth control methods, but had no real peers who were having children. Female professors having children were generally very quick about it and came back to the university ASAP to keep their careers on track. Perhaps even more so than women in other professions, academics focused on women's issues may want to prove/ believe that having kids is just another thing that they can control in every way. [And isn't it a shock when they can't!]

[lojoma]

I just read this book and got very annoyed It did not even seem that cohesive to me on a general writing level. The only part that halfway held my interest was early on when she discussed how pregnancy can influence/change views on abortion/fertility treatments, but even that was not very compelling. I guess the most irritating thing was her repeated epiphanies like "wow, I guess minorities really DO have it worse in America" kind of thing. I kept rolling my eyes at all her wide eyed bewilderment.

I also took offense at the nasty view of La Leche League, although she did try to soften it up later. I would recommend Anne Crittenden,s "the cost of mothering" for much more interesting social commentary on the status of mothers in America. I know Misconceptions was more "one privledged academics journey through the unpleasant realm of the flesh" instead of a critique of policy, but Crittenden still has crucial things to say whereas Wolfe just seemed to be stabbing around in her own experience which was just not very interesting. Its as though she knows this is rich, timely material but just couldnt get over herself enough to mine it in any real way.

The other thing is it did not seem genuine when she discussed the pay-off, the gifts of children. One short bit in the epilogue about maternal love seemed forced and inadequate.

[ColesMom]

I'm with lojoma - Ann Crittenden's The Price of Motherhood is hands down a superior book in every way.

[Sarah]

I just saw a review of this book in New York magazine... and I thought, hmmm- I wonder what the moms at Mothering would think of this book- I'll have to go post a thread and see if anyone has read it- and here is the thread full of GREAT reviews (I mean well written pans) but anyway- thanks for the info- I'll save my money.

Sarah (Sarah plain and tall)

[luvmykids]

I liked the book, in part. The chapters that she devotes to exposing the hospital births for what they are were good, but I agree that it wasn't anything I hadn't heard before. But I think more mainstream women need to hear it. I was quickly annoyed at how she just wouldn't endorse homebirth and how she catagorized women who do and have little pain during their births as "naturalists"--women on "the fringe" of the childbirth continuum....like we are some sort of cult. And that by communicating these ideas to other women, we are doing them a huge diservice bc they will never be able to achieve it for themselves. Also, she certainly puts Ina May Gaskin on a pedestol, and admires her work greatly, but would never make the leap to homebirthing with another Lay Midwife. She makes Ina May out to be the "exception". Why can't women from all over this country/world have gentle, loving births with qualified lay midwifes??...clearly "The Farm" is not the only place for this to take place. I also was annoyed at how she gives more credit or weight to CNM's/free standing birth center births than lay midwifes. I had a CNM/hospital birth with my first child and a Lay Midwife/homebirth with my second child....my lay midwife clearly had more experience and was more competent then my CNM with all the credentials!! I only realized this after having my wonderful homebirth. Was also saddened by the story about her infant interrupting her work schedule to nurse. Also, wasn't thrilled about the chapter on PPD.....I know this is a real condition, but just got miffed in her justification of all of her "new mommy friends" having to go on prozac just so that they could cope....she acted like that the norm and we should be okay with it. I had to stop reading the book bc I am ready to deliver in 2-3 weeks and I realized that the book was really bringing me down instead of inspiring me. I'm not too impressed with this author. Glad to see that others agree.

[onehipmomma]

I too was very surprised by how uneducated and unprepared the author was for birth. I stopped reading the book about half way through as I found that it was nothing new to me (not that I am an expert by any means). I have limited time to read and since I wasn't hearing anything new to me I moved on.

I must say though, that for women who are more into the "mainstream" way of doing things, this book could be a real eye opener. I would recomend it to my mainstream friends.

[luvmykids]

It's ironic that this author offers us no new information on birth, yet when I saw her talking about her book on CSPan Book Review, she kept telling her audience how this book offered new information that no other book had adressed....and that's what made me want to buy and read the book. And the one comment that we keep seeing on this board is that she offers us nothing new to help us. I feel that she really misrepresented herself in that interview/program. She came across as a much stronger woman than she does in this book. I do agree with the previous post though.....it would be a "good read" for more mainstream birthing women.

[redheadmama]

I actually liked this book...but then again, I'm coming from a somewhat different perspective. I had my first two babies in Germany, midwife assisted. And the third with a midwife at home in the UK. I've been reading Mothering for years. I know that there are alternatives to doctors and hospitals out there. And that breastfeeding is superior to formula. Etc. etc. etc. But I also realize that there are a LOT of highly educated people out there (in the US at least) that have NO idea that there are alternatives to what their doctor tells them. Interestingly enough, they don't even really know to question "the authorities"...It is all very frustrating. My sister-in-law (a Stanford graduate) just recently went through the exact same birth process that Naomi Wolfe describes in her book. I had read the book after my homebirth, but before my SIL gave birth. I had the information, and tried to tell her, whenever she'd tell me "what the doctor said" that it might be a good idea to check into alternatives...maybe Naomi Wolfe represents the norm (read mainstream) and we are all sort of fringe women with knowledge that others haven't quite figured out? Is it possible that what seems so obvious to us all is still not the way MOST people are doing things nowadays? Maybe spreading the AP/homebirth/BF "way of doing things" is even more necessary than we'd like to think. If Naomi Wolfe's book causes anyone to question the usual routine, then she has at least done something in the right direction. By the way, I've read her other books, and I, too, was quite surprised that she went into the whole childbirth thing so "ignorant" and "unquestioning". But then again, everybody has to start somewhere...

[onehipmomma]

very well said Greta. You made some excellent points. Thank you for giving me some food for thought :)

[Naomi]

I just read this book! (Just in case any of you were wondering -- NO, I am not Naomi Wolf in disguise. I'm a completely different Naomi.) I checked it out of the library, thank goodness, and I had the same response as everyone else here -- you're supposed to be SO smart and SO countercultural, and yet you apparently never stumbled across such revolutionary concepts as, say, Bradley Childbirth preparation classes?

I also had a couple of other thoughts:

1. I found myself thinking, again and again, how glad I was not to know Naomi Wolf or any of her friends. At one point she tells a story about a teenage girl who births alone and then throws the baby out of a window :( (the baby survives). Naomi was furiously angry at the girl for not putting the baby up for adoption -- though, she notes, none of her friends would be willing to take this baby. (It is implied, though not stated, that the baby is African-American.) Well, geez. Most of my friends are not even in the market for a baby (dh and I were among the first of our peer group to have a child), but I'm pretty sure I could find a home for a healthy baby of any skin color within two or three phone calls.

2. I was struck by the fact that you can be filthy, stinking rich (Naomi is the author of several bestsellers; she and her husband have a LOT of money) and STILL get cr*ppy medical care! (She describes one mind-blowingly unpleasant encounter with an obstetrician, supposedly one of the best in the D.C. area. Thank goodness, she at least fired that doctor.)

3. The story about leaving the baby to go to the office, returning to nurse, etc., got to me, too. I am actually a writer. Since my dd was born in September '00, I wrote my second novel. On dd's first birthday, I sold my first novel, which got split into two books and required a fair amount of revision, which I've completed. I do not have a separate office, and I certainly don't have a nanny. If I did have a full-time nanny, I suppose I probably would want to work in another building, because otherwise I don't think I'd get much done. But, sheesh. If I were the author of multiple bestselling books, my dh would have long since quit his job, and HE'D take care of the kid(s).

4. I was tremendously bugged by her need to lug formula around when she was breastfeeding, and her slur against LLL, and her offhand dismissal of homebirth as an option -- even after Ina Mae apparently cured her horrendous morning sickness in two days.

I did enjoy her slams of the "What to Expect" books, and I found her observations about playgrounds as the "workplace" of the SAHM to be quite interesting. (Although I live in a town where most playgrounds have bathrooms and are planted with trees to provide shade -- they're a much more pleasant work environment than many people have to deal with.) Overall, though, I found this book more infuriating than enlightening.

[luvmykids]

You are "right on" Naomi!! You just expressed about every frustration I had while reading this book!! It pains me to think that my husband paid money for it. And pains me even more that in some small way it made Naomi Wolf more $$$, which will only fund her next idiotic book. BTW, congrats on writing a novel and selling it while having a baby!! That's a great accomplishment. Good luck with it. Tricia P.S. It's so funny that you would preface your remarks with reassuring us that you are NOT Naomi Wolf....bc when I initially saw your name, I immediately thought....OMG, Naomi Wolf actually showed up to defend her book after we just all trashed it!! Yikes! ;)

[Naomi]

when I initially saw your name, I immediately thought....OMG, Naomi Wolf actually showed up to defend her book after we just all trashed it!!

Well, it's wise, when writing about someone's book on the web, to remember that they may actually come read it. I know a LOT of writers (almost all of them SF/F writers) and they all (ALL) read their Amazon.com reviews (sometimes obsessively) (and track their sales rank....sometimes obsessively! :) ) So if it's a person you actually know, or for some reason might someday want a favor from -- be diplomatic ;)

But I very much doubt Naomi Wolf does this. Her books are just too popular and too controversial. I'm sure she reads her major reviews, and she may drop in to read what people say about her on Amazon, but I doubt she surfs the web for this sort of thing (and Mothering magazine just did NOT strike me as her cup of tea! :) ) And I'm also very sure that she's used to people complaining about her books. She probably views controversy as a badge of honor.

As a tangent: my mother once had an academic paper published in a journal/magazine that had an article by Naomi Wolf in the same issue. They sent Mom a letter saying that they needed a photo of her to run with her article. Mom sent in a very formal photo she'd had taken at my brother's Bar Mitzvah (we had family photos done); she's very dressed up and posed-looking. To her chagrin, every other photo in that magazine was a glamour shot -- including, of course, Naomi Wolf. Mom said that she'd have expected that the author of "The Beauty Myth" wouldn't have tried so hard to look beautiful in her photo :D I said, "Mom, have you actually READ 'The Beauty Myth?'"

[mamajenn]

I too was frustrated with how her arguments were in complete contrast to her choices. She is someone who has resources (read money), knowledge and access to medical choices seems compelled to choose a medicalized birth (and then complain about it. I was also pissed off about her denial that anyone could have a positive natural birth experience. So much for sisterhood, I felt like if I were to sit down with her and talk about my amazingly gentle and drug free home birth, I would be added to the list of those who have romanticized birth. I think the birth industry needs to be exposed, however not at the risk of silencing those of us who have already found a way out of it.

[Curious]

I read the book shortly after Dd ws born. Suffice it to say that it sounded like Ms. Wolf was severely in need of therapy. Fine. But instead of going to someone where she could air in private like the rest of the world, she used her credentials to convince some publisher to let her do public catharsis. I heard her on the radio. Very defensive. She must be embarrassed. imho

[laralou]

See, I thought I remembered that I liked The Beauty Myth. I expected something more than what I browsed through. I thought this would be an expose but it just seemed like a story told by someone who was feeling a little bitchy that day. I was disappointed in her choices considering I expected more from her. I have been waiting to buy this but ended up picking something else to spend $25 on.

[seanjoshmom]

After reading this thread, I had to buy the book. I was really disappointed, mostly in the writing. the Beauty Myth was so much more of a scholarly work, her more recent books, and this one especially seem like her own personal whine. Like a little rich girl whine. I mean, she deserves a voice like any other woman, and her story should be heard, but I guess I was expecting something with more data, and fewer anecdotal references. At the same time, I could really relate to the shock she and her compatriots experienced at how unequal the division of labor was between the husbands and wives. As liberated as my husband is, and as forward-thinking, I was stilled floored by how much less he was into the baby thing, and how he didn't want his career to be derailed because he was punch drunk in love with the boys. Silly- I guess, since there is so much data to show that this indeed does happen, and considering the way men are socialized in this day and age. that being said, maybe it is good that she is less academic in her writing--maybe that shows she is more focused on her kids which would be a good thing. anyway, I wouldn't recommend the book.

[manitou]

How comforting! I too hated this book, after loving The Beauty Myth. She has such a victim mentality. I am not sure why she thought that childbearing and rearing is a rose garden - I was never under that impression. I read lots of stuff I didn't like while pregnant and stopped reading it rather than feeling put upon.

It was a disappointment and I quit reading after about 3 chapters.

[miriam]

Dearest Friends:

I have truly enjoyed this thread. I agree w/ everything you have all said.

I want to recommend Birth As An American Rite of Passage, by Robbie E. Davis-Floyd, a well-researched book I think; it talks about how women who have proven themselves successful in the professional life have no desire left to self actualize or prove themselves through the birth experience or mothering experience.

At least that is what I got from parts of it.

[Ione]

I realise what I'm about to say has been touched upon already by others but I think it's worthy of greater detail ... [long post warning]
And, before I start, I would like to acknowledge that much of my like of Naomi W's writing is heavily influenced by the fact that, from what I have gathered about her life, we come from much the same place (born & raised in the same city, same socio-economic background, etc. with only 5 or 6 years age difference)... I fully see that what she says may not "speak" to people from different backgrounds in the same way. But she "speaks" to me.

Anyway, that said...

Like many women, the first pregnancy book I bought was What to Expect. Something in it annoyed me immensely but I couldn't put a finger on just what at first. But I doubt I would have bought other books--I figured they would all be about the same and didn't see the point of more of the same, after all What to Expect seems pretty complete when you know nothing. (I now figure it was, as NW says, that "mental peridural" effect...)

Then I saw Misconceptions and jumped on it because of the author.

When I started reading the book, the space I was in was basically (and had been intensified by book 1):

* I'm gonna have a baby. Delivery'll be rough, thank goodness for peridurals I could never do it without (despite my mom doing it without in an alternative birth center for my siblings and saying postive things about it!).
* Episiotomy? Standard care for all--no problem, part of normal birth.
* Birthing options? No need to explore 'cause I won't have any... good medical care available and everything has been explored and what's offered is probably best.
* Oh, and maybe I had been living under a rock but I had never even heard of LLL... figured I'd BF (if I was one of those "lucky few women who could" and only until going back to work at 3mo pp)...

And SO ON. I'm sure you get the picture.

From where I was comming from, Misconceptions was a HUGE eye-opener! The information was, at least to me, new.

The fact that this smart, savvy, educated woman had trouble finding medical care that treated her like someone able to make choices, the fact that she got steamrolled, etc. (that whole victim thing you criticise) made me realise and accept that it could happen to me. That just because in (difficult) TTC days I changed gynocologists because the first would only answer my questions with "don't worry, we do a great job getting women pregnant these days", did not mean I was immune to being steamrolled. It made me realise I needed to be particularly vigilant as to who would be giving me prenatal care and where/with whom I would be delivering... because my GYN was obviously NOT a lone macho jerk.

And it sent me on a hunt for sources of information outside the mainstream "what to expect" type books. (I never at any time took NW's book as anything other than her exploration/reflections on an experience I would soon be having... I never expected it to deal out medical info... )

Where am I now?

Last night DH and I ate at my parents-in-laws's and MIL asked (for the third or fourth time--she just cannot remember my answer because it scares her, I think) me again if I wanted a peridural. I said "you already asked that--no, I don't".

And DH chimed up in a joking tone: "no, she wants *nothing*, she wants to go off into the forest and give birth on a bed of moss". BUT there was trust in my decision and pride in his voice when he said it... this comming from the man who had snaped his head around in shock faster than the speed of light and said "are you crazy??!!" the first time he heard me say I did not want a peridural...

The information I found first in brief form in Misconceptions and then in more complete form (not to mention the *new ideas* even when NW was not gung-ho about them) was what led me to a search for other information...

And that other information led me not only to change my mind on wanting a peridural but also be able to explain to my husband why I did not want one... and give real, "medical" reasons and facts so that he could really feel that it was a real decision and not some ideological "you must give birth in pain" thing nor some flighty, unresearched city girl's "desire to return to nature".

I also started questioning episiotomies... and while I have no objection to them when it is a question of real need (ie baby in distress--go fast and get baby out NOW or need a c-section), I now liken unnecessary epi's to genital mutiliation of sorts. That I want to avoid if at all possible.

My hunt for other and more information (inspired by having read Misconceptions, I repeat) lead me to, among other things and places:

(The list is long, so I'll just cite the top 3.)
* LLL's site: I now plan on BFing even after returning to work, with no pre-determined ween-date, although I do still have a bit of difficulty seeing myself in really LONG EBF but instead of 3 months, it's gone up to "perhaps a year... who knows after?"

*reading birth stories and, in particular, The Birth of Grey Forest Walt (http://pages.ivillage.com/coatlicue/) which made me cry with the beauty of giving birth... made me realise I had a lot of ingrained, unconsious fear to get rid of before my own D-day... firmly convinced me that I really want to be an active part of the decisions about how and where I give birth (even if the idea of hanging from a tree hours from an emergency block is still a bit much for me...), ...

* and, of course, mothering dot com.

Sorry this got so long... but it just had to come out...
I'm sure my reaction to NW's book would have been much different (probably not that different from the majority in this thread) had I read it from where I am NOW. But I didn't. I read it from a different space (almost a different dimension)... and it is and was the corner stone in a life path that marked and made possible a MAJOR change in my attitudes.

And for that I can only be grateful!