Teens and oral sex

[Nursing Mother]

On the Oprah show last night the topic was teens and oral sex. They made it sound like (most) teens where experiencing this and the new rage in (safe) sex is oral sex. In fact most of the teens interviewed didn't even see it as sex. (which of course it is as the sex organs are involved). The casualness in which they talked about it was amazing. I called my teens in and they watched it with me and said that yes many kids are doing it, but usually it is the girl who gives out of pressure to "be popular" and a way to service the boys. The boys just kind of giggled and laughed, while the girls got all emotional and even mad. My question is then why do they do it, when several of them mentioned they don't even enjoy it? To me oral sex conatates an attitude of servanthood or demeaning of the women as the women must "bow" before her man in order to please him, without the partners being of equal value. (disclaimer in that OS doesn't have to be that way with consenting adults
), but with these kids I got so so mad as the boys seemed to get a kick out of having the girls "please them" in this way. Some girls said the pressure to give is almost always there.

Needless to say it spawned a conversation with my teens and they both admitted no that had never done it and were smart enough to know it certainly wasn't safe sex as STD are and can be transmitted any way, but they did know the pressure that kids are getting to take part in this type of pleasure, without thinking it was really sex.

Have any of your teens talked about this? or have you talked about this with your kids? I thought it was especially important to talk to my dd, because I have taught her to never ever demean herself in order to please any boy, but I guess the pressures can get to even the strongest girl (or boy), especially if they don't really see it as sex.:confused:

[symbiosis]

My mom taped the show for me and I watched it with my 13-year-old dd. I was shocked to say the least...and totally saddened.

We homeschool our 13-year-old so when I asked if she knew of kids doing this she said "I don't know what they're doing in school anymore". She wasn't even sure what oral sex was. I guess I'm glad about that in a way but then I think I didn't do a very good job with my "sex talks" (which are always open in our house).

The part of the show I can't get out of my head is when the young teenager said she thought kissing was more intimate than giving a boy oral sex!!!!!!!!!

And when the boy teenager said that after former President Clinton announced that it wasn't sex, everyone took it from there.

I thought it was very important for my dd to hear the boys say that the girls think they'll get popular by doing this but they don't...they actually get a reputation and they're not the kind of girls they'd want to date (take to the prom, etc.).
I really feel for the teenagers today. They have so much pressure to contend with. Sure, we all had pressure but it wasn't anything like what they're going through :(

[jamminmommy]

My teens are 14 and 15, both girls. We have talked about this at length.

This has been a problem for years before Clinton's scandal. Boys expect it. Remember when we played kissing games at parties? this is the replacement.

Last week my younger dd was at a party where this was going on. She told me about it a couple of days later. The girls do not expect reciprocation. In fact I don't think they even want reciprocation.

I used to watch ER with my older dd (who wants to be a doc) and on one episode, a teen girl got gonorrhea from oral sex. At first the docs thought she had strep. My dd was totally grossed out.

The kids all know who will do what. They have a lot of difficult choices to make, don't they? The girls have to be especially strong and sure of themselves not to get caught up.

[CanOBeans]

I didn't see the show, but heard about it through this essay -- warning, graphic sexual language:

http://www.tomatonation.com/downboy.asp

[Nursing Mother]

Oh man, thanks for that Can0beans. Proves the point all the more how our daughters can be caught up in the "sexist" behavior. Its one thing to have your dd have sex "equally" with a loving partner or boyfriend, but then to see your dd being a virual "sex slave" to a boy for the sake of being "In" is just so very demeaning. These boys need a kick in the pants, (or elsewhere for that matter!) Using girls is not new, but this seems like a game or sport to them. I certainly don't blame Clinton, but his moral sensibility on this sure lowerd the standerds in a very public way. JERK! How do we expect kids to have high standards with their bodies, when adults are being such bad examples. Its the movies, MTV, and other media that also promotes this loose sexuality, and idea that women are to serve men in this way. In this area I am a staunch Feminist!

[jessjax]

This isn't new--it was the same way when I was in school--graduated '96. I always thought it was the result of remarkably effective "abstainence education." Mothers need to talk to their daughters more! When my daughter gets to be old enough to talk about sex, I'll tell her this. If you want to have a healthy sexual image, you'll wait to engage in ANY sexual behavior with ANYONE until he's proven he cares for you deeply. Otherwise, when you find the guy that does care for you deeply, you're going to be haunted by the loser/s, and it may take a lot of healing to get past it.

Does that sound like experience talking?

[symbiosis]

Obviously it's been going on before Clinton's term :confused: .

"the boy teenager said that after former President Clinton announced that it wasn't sex, everyone took it from there."

Unfortunately, he's telling us that that's how he and his group of friends feel about it.

[Dan Frank]

(sigh)
See, kids, this is why we tell public school to go f*ck itself.

Peer f*cking pressure really bothers me. I gotta say, NM, when I saw the title and your name attached, I was all set to dive in, guns blazin'... ;)

But this isn't about whether one thinks teens & sex = good, bad, weird, cool, alarming, exciting, mind-boggling, or swoggly (an adjective I just made up)... the real topic here, for me anyway, is the g*d*mn peer pressure!

Peer pressure is an eternal conundrum, to me, one I fear I will never solve. I'm usually not affected by it... I don't do any of those -naughty- things teens do for peer pressure, be they sex or substance abuse or whatever, and if/when I do them it'll be because I damn well want to.

But I might, if I were still at public school (began homeschooling at an early age). Because, in my minimal experience, I have felt the sting of being unpopular. It's horribly frustrating, that this pressure exists and people do so little about it. I hate to break it to ya (NOT to anyone in particular, as you seem like pretty involved parents), but telling kids to ignore it doesn't generally work. if they don't, it's because they've been instilled, from an early age, with very strong beliefs on that subject (And even that doesn't always deter), not cuz someone muttered "oh, and Just Say No!" or somesuch paltry slogan.

How can Peer Pressure be somehow nullified or alleviated? F*cked if I know... I'm no sociologist :p. Maybe it can't...


And I'm not even gonna go into to much detail on the sexism. I think that is just plain f*cked up. I personally have some hangups about receiving oral sex (not that I have...) for similar reasons as NM mentioned, and getting oral sex for exactly such a reason (namely, just using the girl) is abso-f*cking-lutely disgusting. Sickening. Pisses me off. :angry

Loved the article, btw, CanOBeans. Thanks :)


PS, my apologies for the expletives... when I think like a teen, I guess I talk(write, whatever) like one too.

[CanOBeans]

Were the parents of the boys on the show? If so, what were their reactions?

[emmaline]

this thread is just "blowing" my mind (sorry)

I so hope i am raising my beautiful sons with enough respect for themselves and others ... speechless

yes I too would like to hear what the boys parents had to say

[Nursing Mother]

Funny thing is is that all the boys were up front without any parents with them (probably in the audience somewhere) the girls were on the other side with their mothers. Double standered, ok for boys to have a little fun, but the girls, naughty, naughty!

I liked what Dr. Phil said concerning this issue. He said the ONLY way this behavior will stop (mostly talking to the girls, because obviously the chips are higher with them) is that the parents instill such a sense of worthiness and high esteem, that they feel unconditionally loved by their parents, they won't feel such a "need" and temptation to please in order to feel accepted. I think that is a real key here. Girls who are self-assured, have total parental acceptance, love and affection from father, told they are worthy of more then being a "boys servant" and so on, will have a lot less chance to be swept into this type of peer pressure.

And for the boys, well the risks unfortunately don't seem so high, but if they are truly taught the beauty and value of a women (girl) and that demeaning anyone in any way is wrong thats a start.

Emmaline, I think the first start is just what you said. Raising them with respect for themselves and others.


I gotta say, NM, when I saw the title and your name attached, I was all set to dive in, guns blazin'...

Thanks for sparing me Dan.:love I liked what you had to say about this.

[dotcommama]

I saw this also. My boys are 4 and 2 - so we're well away from this, but still it was upsetting to me.

Why is it that girls always have to demean themselves to be popular? In my day - it was the girls who had sex at age 15 or 16, but now oral sex at 12? I think we need to take a good hard look at where are children are getting their ideas about sex. TV, movies, their friends? Clearly they are not getting this attitude from their parents - god at least I sure as hell hope not. But we as parents have to filter what we expose our children to - KWIM? We can't just blame TV if we're the ones who allow our children to watch it.

I am glad to hear that many of you with teens had an open discussion about this topic with them. That is certianly what I intend to do when my boys are older.

On the lighter side of things - my mom also saw this show and we were talking about it together the other day.

I said to her, "Do you remember when I asked you what oral sex was?" and she said she didn't. I then reminded her of the conversations which went like this:

Me: "Mom what is oral sex?"
Mom: "You know"
Me: "No, really mom what is it?"
Mom: "Well what does oral mean?"
Me: "Something to do with your mouth."
Mom: "Well there you go!"

My mom laughed when I reminded her of this and said, "Well you know what - I probably didn't know myself." :D

[barjem]

I saw this show when it aired the first time and was not shocked just disappointed .....
I think Dr. Phil was right on target by saying we talk to our kids about sex but not oral sex .....

[symbiosis]

My tape cut out about 5 to 10 minutes before show's end so I'm not sure if the boys parents were interviewed. I would be curious as well to find that out.

[Dan Frank]

Dotcomma, I see what you mean, and I agree with most of it... except for...

But we as parents have to filter what we expose our children to - KWIM? We can't just blame TV if we're the ones who allow our children to watch it.


I don't think the answer is to filter out negative input. The problem with the filter approach is that eventually... that filter is going to come off.... say, at school. And when it does, the kids reaction will probably be something along the lines of.... confusion/hurt/resentment that they were shielded, followed by rebelliousness and a desire to try out this newly discovered thing.

A much better solution, imo, would be to be WITH your child, and give your child constant information, regarding the negative input. if your kid wants to watch a show you dont approve of... Watch it WITH him, and tell him why you dont like it. IME, this is much more likely to instill your child with beliefs that you consider 'right', and will allow your child the ability to also make his own decisions (including the decision to disagree with you)

But yeah, discussion of is absolutely numero uno in any attempt at solving this sexism/self esteem/peer pressure issue.

(Sigh) peer pressure pisses me off immensely.
-Dan

[dotcommama]

Dan - I agree with you - at least some what. I think there are certain things at certain ages I would simply not allow my children to be exposed to at all.

But, if we are talking specifically about teens and sex in the media, I think it would be important to watch what ever it was with them and then discuss what happened and how such choices or actions would play out in real life.

I imagine the teen wouldn't be too thrilled about it, but it would be the most helpful and responsible thing to do. Like the moms here who mentioned watching the Oprah show with their children and using it as a spring board for further conversation - I applaud you!

What annoys me is when parents say, "Oh they got that idea from TV" (or Bill Clinton) for that matter. Like it's all the media's fault, and parents are just helpless. Why were you letting your kids watch something that had a message you disagreed with? Or, like Dan says, why did you not watch it with your child and make sure they got the right message (i.e. Clinton almost got his butt fired for getting a blow job and certainly humiliated himself and his country - was it worth that?)

[Dan Frank]

Dotcommama, well then we agree just fine :D

I have other theories and beliefs regarding younger kids, that are complicated, and aren't relevant to this conversation, so I'll save em for another day ;)

Main reason I posted, actually, is to say GREAT sig!!! :love :love

[dotcommama]

Thanks Dan! :)

[barbara]

Good points all around....
I just want to point out that there is no way to escape or shelter your kids from peer-presure. The best defence is to help them to be secure, confident, thoughtful, intelligent, caring individuals.

Our children have been home-schooled and most of their friends were "church kids" yet they still came across these same peer-pressures. From what they tell me the "good christian kids" are doing the same things. In fact a lot of the girls feel that they can still call themselves "virgins" no matter how many different partners they have had "oral sex" with. A friend of my son and daughter-in law's was so proud that her first "kiss" was on her wedding day....but all the kids that grew-up with her in youth group, knew that she had done plenty of "other stuff"!! All the adults were impressed, but I think these parents are just naive'.

[Nursing Mother]

Wow, barbara, I think that is so true. We put such importance in "virginity" but forget about all the other stuff kids can do that really is sexual. As for the Christian kids, I do believe they are tempted with peer pressure as much as anyone else, the statistics of them being involved in sexual activity is just as high as anyone else. It really opens your eyes about NOT assuming your kids will never get involved in something like this.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Just Wondering

One area I have failed in, however, is "fast cars" :hammer

Sigh...

Madam.

You have done a sterling job.

a

[barbara]

JW, execellent post!:thumb More backbone is what we need in this world all around!

[sleepies]

i DREAD talking about this stuff with my son, but I guess it is comming up soon. he is only 9 now though.

i think it IS sex.

but.

I think that it is SOOOOO much safer than regular sex.

1. no pregnancy (IF that is all they do)
2. less emotional impact (my opinion)

i'd rather teenagers did not have any type of sex at all, but i realize this is the real world.

[CincoDeMama]

I am _so_ glad I ran across this thread! My 13 yr old son (going into Jr. High this upcoming school yr) has been pretty open with me about his feelings for girls, but now I see that I need to SPECIFY that oral sex is also sex, and should be respected as such. Thank you!

This kid has girls calling him from 9am until all hrs of the night! Not to mention all the pasrties he's gone to this past yr! GOTTA SIT THAT BOY DOWN, first thing in the morning!!

-Kas

[Greaseball]

Please forgive me for posting here when I don't have teenagers, but it hasn't been that long since I've BEEN a teen...(I'm 23).

It seems like it's only the boys who are getting oral sex from girls...not very fair.

I had oral sex when I was 13 and it wasn't "to be popular" but it's kind of the same old story - sexually molested, never fit in anywhere, no stability - always moving and changing schools, no decent sex education, was taught that sex was bad and shameful, strong "gender roles" in the house, etc. But the main reason was that I thought "everyone was doing it" when in fact hardly anyone was!

Also, we didn't even have a TV in the house until I was 14 and no cable/MTV until I was 16.

[~member~]

Hello!
i have read all the posts and I keep seeing the same thing about raising daughters to have self-esteem, backbone, self respect, etc. But not once did I see mention about doing the same with our sons. Why? Is it not okay to raise a son to have respect for himself, for his body? Is his penis not as sacred, special, decerving of respect as a woman's vagina?

I keep seeing and hearing of people saying that boys/men need to learn respect for women. I think if males were given the freedom and support to respect their own bodies, they would in turn be able to respect other's bodies.

I hope I am making sense. I just think it soooo unfair to put all the responsibility on females and at the same time not allowing any room for males KWIM?

Okay, I'm gonna stop and come back later to try and make more sense. If any of you understand what I am trying to say, please reply in a more coherent way LOL! :)

[Nursing Mother]

Hi mamaintheboonies, I agree with you, it is JUST as important to teach our sons to respect their bodies too, however the pressure with this issue is more on the girls. Often sexual responsibility lies more on the girls, whether this is fair or not is not the issue, but a fact of our overly sexual and racist culture. With oral sex also it is more of a "giver" "receiver" type of issue and not one of being equal as "normal" sex is. Girls have the added pressure to "give" in order to be popular and is regular intercouse I guess it is assumed both boy and girl will be equally satisfied. (of course we all know what a myth this can be). NM

[~member~]

Hello!
At first I was just going to let this go and not reply again. But after much time and thinking, etc..here I am again!
There is just as much, if not more, pressure on young males to have sex or engage in sexual activities.
What about the pressure put on boys to 'get' oral sex/any type of sex? Not just girls who'll give?
I think as parents/adults, when we quit putting all the responsibility and pressure concerning sexual responsibility on our daughters/young women in our lives, we will be able to see a more positive change.
How often are females told it is all their responsibility? How often are females told that males have just as much responsibility regarding these same issues? Some questions to think about.

[barbara]

MamaInTheBoonies,
I agree with you. We have a responsibility to raise our sons to be gentleman, and to treat women and young girls with respect. If young men don't value their own sexuality and consider purity a virtue, they will not value these things in young women either. There is so much pressure on young men to have sex. Far more than there is on girls. A girl that is a vrgin in highschool and college may be considered a rarity, but is still respected. A young man, on the other hand, is made fun of, called all sorts of names, and often considered gay. (no disrespect ment to gays :) ) It is not an easy road out there for any young person who wants to abstain from premissive sex. We can best help our children by encouraging a good healthy self-esteem and body image. If one has respect for one's self, it will follow that one will respect others also.

[LizD]

Where are the parents who expect that their teens will have normal, healthy sex and wish to discuss how to help our sons and daughters do that? I had some lovely relationships in high school, learning about my and others' sexuality in a delightful way. If only I had not had so closed-minded a mother that I could have shared this with her, and gotten intimate adult advice from her, instead of a counselor at a clinic! I am still good friends with most of my high school boyfriends and girlfriends. I've had some not-so-great encounters that were just part of growing sexually. No bad memories, traumas or "hauntings"! Fortunately, my self-esteem was always high enough I was never forced into anything I didn't want to do, nor did I ever choose a partner that would dream of doing so.

My mother would have insisted along with many parents here that I had never done anything of the sort, and would have been adamant that we were close enough that she would have "known." Just something to think about!

[Nursing Mother]

Well I've talked with both my teens about sex and sexuality and how precious it is and not something to experiement with with casual relationships. Your sexuality is a gift not to be just given away and that is what I have taught my kids. So in one sense you can say I am very open-minded and blunt and honest with my kids concerning sexual issues, but in another way I am close-minded about sexual experienmentation with teen-agers. My kids know exactly where I stand on it and they have commented that they agree and their friends have said they wished they had parents that talked about the things we do with our kids. I do believe kids want blunt forth-right answers to their questions. And I also believe morals and religion (or whatever faith you are) are a big part of sexuality and should be shared with teens. You'll never find me condoning any sexual relationship outside of committment and marriage. I tell my kids it is OK to say no to your hormones, just because they are there doesn't mean you have to use them.:p

[EnviroBecca]

I'm with LizD: I think discussing how to have healthy sexual relationships is very important, and parents' beliefs about what type of relationship is an appropriate context for sexual activity are only a small part of that discussion. There are many other factors in finding compatible partners and making responsible decisions. I think teens should know, BEFORE they're anywhere close to being sexually active, all about the anatomy and physiology of both sexes, all about conception and STDs and how to prevent them, the basic types of sexual activities (with emphasis on the fact that intercourse is not the only thing you can do and on the fact that, tho other activities are LESS risky, they are not risk-free), some guidelines for deciding what level of sexual activity they personally are ready for, some guidelines for choosing partners, and basic principles of relationship etiquette. The last 3 can be tailored to the parents' own beliefs. However, I think it's more effective to teach reasoning methods than to teach rules. (For example: "Do I feel secure enough to let him see me naked? Well, to feel secure I need to know he won't run off with some other girl. I shouldn't get naked in front of someone until he's promised to stay with me. Marriage is that kind of promise." is reasoning; "No sex outside marriage." is a rule.)

For so many people, sexual activity seems to be a very "all or nothing" issue: either you're pure and virginal, or you're not; either you're married and sex is an important sacred expression of your bond, or you're in a dangerous exploitative relationship. I think that, like most other life passages, it's better viewed as a continuum: you get to know your own sexuality, then you very gradually begin sharing it with others, learning every step of the way, so that each year is more fulfilling than the last.

My parents did very well at giving me the information and reasoning skills I needed to make responsible decisions and establish healthy, joyful relationships. It all fell apart when I used those skills to make decisions different from the decisions they had made for themselves. They freaked out and ignored the fact that I had followed all the principles they'd taught me, in favor of punishing me for breaking a rule they'd thought was obvious. It's been 13 years, and our relationship has never recovered. They still don't understand why, after they punished me for my personal decisions, I didn't want to discuss with them or even inform them of my subsequent personal decisions. I'm not saying they should've pretended to think it was wonderful when I had sex at 16; I'm saying they should've listened to what I had to say about it, commended me for being careful and responsible about it, expressed their concerns about my safety and talked thru how I was addressing those concerns, and thus kept the door open for further discussion.

[LizD]

Yes, Becca has understood my point; if as parents we are clear not only on our personal value systems but clear that we are closed-minded regarding our children's personal value systems, how do we remain close to those children? How do they remain safe? Would I rather have my child at risk having awkward, rushed illicit sex in Central Park or safe in our home?

The real issue that concerns me on this topic is how do parents with prohibitive value systems accept when their children make different decisions? As Becca described and my own experience indicates, the chance of a relationship with significant depth can be destroyed by such conflicts. If you are clear that sex outside of marriage is never ok, do you really think your child will be truthful with you when they do it? How will you ever know? How will they feel when they have an unplanned pregnancy? Do you want your sixteen year old daughter in court trying to circumvent parental consent for an abortion, as her pregnancy progresses, or do you want her to come to you the minute her period's late, to discuss options? To whom do they turn when they're not sure if they've ever had an orgasm? When they don't know how to have their own needs filled and, as the Oprah program suggested, only experience sex in an inequitable, less than pleasant and fulfilling way?

In short, do you want your children to seek your help in finding their own path through life, or will they possibly have to hide a huge part of themselves from you? I don't want my daughter ever to think that premarital sex or *any* sexual practice is "wrong;" it is whether it is right for the individual.

I am very much interested in frank discussion with other parents of teens and preteens on open sexuality. Perhaps this would make a new thread, if there is sufficient interest?

[barbara]

I agree with frank discussions with teens. I think that we have had very open and honest communication with our teens about sex.

For the most part we have avoided having rules and our kids have mostly made good discissions. They know how we feel about promiscuity and premarital sex, and they also know that we would still love them and accept them. They know the facts about SID's and the emotional games. Knowlege can be power. I have always felt that giving them the facts will help them to make good choices when we're not there to help. But we have also helped them to avoid circumstances where they will be tempted to throw reason to the wind. Many of their friends are ignorant of facts about sex even tho they may have much more experience. Sheltering them only makes them curious. But too many parents don't give their children the negitive facts and that can be just as detrimental. It ain't easy being a parent ...you really do have to taylor things to individuals.

[Chanley]

A dear friend of mine is the mother of 4 grown sons and I love the way she dealt with this matter.

At the appropriate age she sat them down (she is VERY matter-of-fact) and explained sex to them. She told them that at thier age, they would be very interested in sex and that was/is normal HOWEVER the girls thier age were not emotionally ready for sex and they had to respect that fact, so they better learn to satisfy themselves.

She has 4 sons who treat thier women very well.

[EnviroBecca]

Chanley, I'm glad it worked out well for those guys. But as a girl who WAS interested in sex as a teenager, I had some very bad experiences with guys who thought there was something wrong with me! They were prepared to respect girls who weren't ready for sex, but along with that they'd gotten the idea that girls who did want sex didn't deserve respect. :angry I'm concerned too that telling a boy that NORMAL boys want to have sex will make him worry about his masculinity if he isn't ready.

How about not making it a gender thing, but saying, "At your age it's normal to begin feeling very interested in sex, but that doesn't mean you need to go out and do it right away. Not everyone is ready for sex at the same age, so it's important not to pressure anyone or let them pressure you."