Circumcision

[Caroline248]

Okay..who is doing it, who is not? I decided I don't want to. I know I am going get some opposition, both my DH and DS are circ'ed. I don't really want to hear all the reasons we shouldn't/should do it, I can see an influx from the Case against Circ board..... ( I know the reasons)...just looking to see how everyones partner feels about it. How would you ahndle it if your husband wanted to??

Caroline

[Kabes]

I think it's terrible and don't want to. DH insists that we do. I told him I would go along with it under 2 conditions 1- He has to watch one first 2-He has to go with our son and comfort him while its being done. I hope dh changes his mind after seeing one. If he still insists on doing it I will have anesthesia (local) for my baby. Honestly though, I can't bear the thought of it! Thank goodness the first two were girls.

[chrissy]

Noah isn't circ'ed and none of my sons will ever be. My dh is circ'ed and until I read about it during my first pregnancy I had always just assumed we'd do it. It was kind of a battle with my dh, but now he is glad we didn't do it. My MIL thinks it was the wrong decision, but who the h@ll cares what she thinks about my son's penis. It's really none of her business.

Kabes, I am so sorry you are in that position. I know that when I was dealing with dh I showed him a bunch of stuff on the web about it. I don't have any of the sites offhand but I know there are pictures and they are really horrible. Also, if you do have a son, after his birth I would ask your dh if he honestly looks at his son's penis and thinks there is something wrong with it that requires surgery.

[Caroline248]

Here is a link I got off the Circ board, I think it is a video that shows one being done...maybe your DH can watch it. I don't want to....so I have no idea if it is graphic or what...


http://www.intact.ca/vidphil.htm


Caroline


Edited....I glanced at the site...only look at this if you realy want your husband to know what relly happens..I didn't look too much, but wow....

[plantmommy]

I deferred to dh for Cullen... he wanted him to "look like daddy", as stupid as that is, and I didn't do much research, and went along with it, and regret it horribly.

Aside from the actual procedure, with ds, the bit of foreskin left repeatedly would try to readhere, in small places, and because it's not like a totally uncirc'ed, it would easily get accidentally retracted and be injured. Poor baby had more than a few periods of an ouchy penis in his first few years.

This time, knowing much more, and knowing this is another boy, I just told him we were NOT putting this boy through it. When I expressed myself strongly, he just accepted it and said ok.

[Mom2baldie]

We dont circ. If my husband wanted to, honestly I would tell him flat out its just not going to happen. I know thats not the best approach with everyone though, but it does work with my DH. I also gave him some info from Mothers Against Circ...(the website) showing that an intact male has more sensitivity during intercourse, so therefore more pleasure. He thought that was interesting. Thats what ended up making him feel more comfortable with leaving our boys intact. :eyesroll I personally feel there are much better reasons than that though.

[mama2annabelle]

No way!! Thankfully my DH totally agrees with me (he is circ'd by the way). Our friends and family think we're crazy, but just as someone else here said...who cares what they think about our son's penis. It really is no one else's business. I do NOT think it is okay to put a newborn through that just so he'll "look like everyone else".

[Lazuli]

We've talked about this already and my husband is just fine with not circing if we have a boy. I'm glad it's a non-issue for us. He's asked me not to share any of the details of how the procedure is done with him, he'd rather not know what his parents put him through.

[fourlittlebirds]

We don't circumcize. In the beginning neither of us had strong feelings about *not* doing it (we didn't know much) but it just seemed pointless and too much of a hassle to bother, so we didn't (it probably helped that no one was pressuring us to do it, and we had a homebirth so nobody was asking if we wanted to.) At the time, though, if dh had really wanted to I'm sure I would have gone along with it, because like I say I just didn't know any better.

There is no way I would allow it now, no matter what my husband thought about it. Since then I've actually put some thought into it, and I just believe that my son's rights to his own body come before my husband's rights to his son's body. My feeling is that *no one* has the right to make the choice for someone else to permanently alter their body by removing one of their healthy, functioning, valuable body parts. Edited to add: I don't believe I have the right to allow it, either.

[Kabes]

Caroline- Thanks for the link! I can't go there, but I will show it th dh. I can't even go to the Circ. board anymore. It makes me sick to think about putting a baby through that.

Lynsey- I usually just put my foot down too but since I've already done that (re: homebirth), I don't think I should 'press my luck'.

[Caroline248]

Well, I brought it up to my husband again, and his thought is that our oldest is circ'ed and he doesn't know how he feels about making them "different" from each other. I countered with the fact that our oldest is also cross-eyed, does that mean if this one comes out with straight eyes we should surgically have them crossed just so the boys will look the same??? He kind of thought for a minute, and agreed to re-open the conversation. But he stated that he is definatly FOR doing it at this point.

I don't really want to put my foot down on it...we really don't do that with anything in our marriage. These are not MY kids, they are OUR kids, and we have to discuss this...but I can manipulate!!! ;)

Well..it;s a start..

Caroline

[4under6]

We circ'd Donny, because we just never gave it a second thought (dumb, dumb, dumb) and he has had the same issues as Plantmommy's son. Readhering, adhesions, UGH. His penis just doesn't look normal. It doesn't look circumcised, but it sure doesn't look intact, either.

We regret it every day.

When I got pregnant this time, I researched and researched, and decided there is no way we are circ'ing Finn. Regardless of what my husband thought (he's circ'd). But when I told husband about my choice and gave him some facts, he simply said "Ok. I don't want it done to him either. There's no need."

We feel bad for Donny!
I hope he doesn't continue to have issues with his penis. He has had so much trauma down there, aside from the screwed up circ!
In November, my husband was holding him up over the kitchen sink to wash his hands, and he slid down, and the cupboard handles below the sink caught him on the scrotum and ripped the scrotum right down to exposed testicle. He had 17 stitches to his scrotum. My husband nearly passed out, honest to goodness. He has yet to bring himself to look at the wound, even though you can barely see the scar now.
Poor little guy!
He healed fine, and they think his testicle will be perfectly fine in the future. Hopefully.

[oceanbaby]

We thought we would circ before ds was born, but decided not to when he was 2 days old.

About the 'looking like daddy' thing: That was my dh's reason initially as well. When ds was a few weeks old, I was talking to dh's sister and she asked if he had circed ds. I said no. She then mentioned that their father, who was born in another country, is not circed either. Dh had no idea! So apparently not looking like his daddy didn't harm dh that much, considering he was almost 30 years old before he realized it!

And yes, your argument about the crossed eyes thing is what I would be using. If you have big breasts, and have a dd with small breasts, are you going to get her implants so she looks like you? It's really a ridiculous reason when you think about it.

[chrissy]

Oh my gosh, poor poor Donny!!!

[fourlittlebirds]

Wow, Caroline, that's tough. I think about it this way... if I had a sister, and she had been circumcised (had the hood of the clitoris removed,) would I have wanted my parents to do the same to me *only* so that she wouldn't be alone in it? Well, to be honest, no.

[sistermama]

Kind of off topic - Its funny how quickly your son's uncircumcised penis becomes "normal" looking to you! I guess I see ds a lot more than dh, but dh sure looks weird to me now!

[Tree Swallow]

Absolutely no circumcision planned for this baby, and my son, age 7, is intact as well. It seems that with even a small bit of education, people could be easily convinced to leave boys alone! Sadly that's not the case. But fortunately Christopher's father, who is circed, actually broached the topic with me and it was a no-brainer once we read just one article about it.

Now I'm expecting boy #2 with my new husband and he is also circed BUT was immediately convinced of the wisdom of leaving little boys alone. I frankly can't understand the mindset of men wanted to have it done, though my brother is one of these. My SIL remains upset that it was done to their son.

That said, what continues to irk me is the misinformation. I know of one woman who did not circ her son, on the insistance of his father. Good, right? Well she took no steps to inform herself of the care (or rather, non-care) required by an intact penis and insisted that he regularly and thoroughly pull back his foreskin and scrub, scrub, scrub. He complained that she always had to nag him to do it.

Can you guess the result? Just this month he was circumcised at the age of 8. Sadly, I'm afraid that she will tell the tale of how her son "had" to be circumcised, adding to the misinformation.

I know of more than one child that was circed based solely on the "evidence" of a coworker, whose son similarly "had" to be circed. I don't know the details, but I suspect they were similar to the other case. I wish I could tell the mother of the 8-year-old the correct information, but at this point it would probably just make her feel bad. I just can't understand why she didn't inform herself! :duh

[Mom2baldie]

Caroline,

I completely agree. Riley, Paityn and #3 are our children, not mine. But the thing is, Rileys and this ones (if I have a boy) body are NOT ours. They belong to them and them only. My husband nor I have the right to make that decision without their consent.

[chrissy]

ITA Lynsey!

[JenInMpls]

We will not circumcise a boy. After all, he has no one in our house to compare himself to. :D We also have no religious considerations. Quakers don't much care about the state of one's penis.

I'm sure our moms have no opinions, either, and all of our friends who have even asked about it (which may be 1 or 2) were supportive.

I have a friend whose older son is circ'ed and her younger not, and they have had no difficulties with potty training, questions, etc.

A friend of mine, an M.D., hates doing circs and always uses 2x the amount of local anesthesia, but the babes still get fussy because they can feel something going on down there. I can't imagine what it must feel like when the anesthesia wears off, though, and then you put ammonia in a wound? Owie.

j

[fourlittlebirds]

"Kind of off topic - Its funny how quickly your son's uncircumcised penis becomes "normal" looking to you!"

Reading this reminded me of when I saw my baby nephew's circ'd penis, I was embarrassed because it looked so naked and exposed and... well, phallic. With an intact penis you don't see the glans unless it's erect. But circumcised boys always have an exposed glans. I guess to me (and this was kind of a shock because I hadn't expected to feel this way) it seemed like this little boy's sexuality was on display. Whereas when I look at my son's penises I don't feel that way -- they have a covering, like my daughter's private parts.

[fourlittlebirds]

Jen wrote: "A friend of mine, an M.D., hates doing circs"

One has to wonder why he does them then? :scratch

[JenInMpls]

Jen wrote: "A friend of mine, an M.D., hates doing circs"

One has to wonder why he does them then? :scratch

hear hear, I finally said straight out to her "if you hate doing them, why do you? You're a full-fledged member of this practice now, not a resident, you can do what you want!". I will keep encouraging her to tell her patients that she finds them unnecessary and that they would have to go to someone else if they wanted them done. Up til now she has been a resident at a major hospital and had little choice. If she lost a patient or two that way, I don't know if it would be a real loss. She is a super doctor otherwise, and a lot of patients are actually following her to her new practice now that her residency is done!

[tuffykenwell]

DS who is two in not circed, DH is. We hadn't been dating that long when the subject came up (I have NO idea how LOL!) and I just told future DH that no way in HELL would I ever agree to do cosmetic surgery on a newborn. Luckily he didn't feel passionately about it either way but honestly I think that could have been a deal breaker for me.

Steph

[woobysma]

No Circ here, either. DS is intact and this baby will be, too. I had to put my foot down with DH (he circ'd his first child) but I feel strongly that it's not our decision to make. It's a cosmetic procedure, not a medical emergency.

Glad to see there are so many intact boys running around out there.

[Caroline248]

Caroline,

I completely agree. Riley, Paityn and #3 are our children, not mine. But the thing is, Rileys and this ones (if I have a boy) body are NOT ours. They belong to them and them only. My husband nor I have the right to make that decision without their consent.


I hear this line of reasoning a lot, and I have to say that as the parent, we do have that right, if we truly think we are doing better for them. I am not saying circ'ing IS better, just that my husband believes it is. I mean, if my 5 year old was to say that she only wanted to eat cookies for the next year, should I say okay because it is her body?

I am not saying it is the same thing, just stating why this line wouldn't work in our house. We are the parents, we do have the right to make decisions for our child....which is why we are in this predicament now! DH really thinks this is the right thing to do...of course, we haven't gone over all the info yet, that is tomorrow!

Caroline

[woobysma]

I think, as a parent, I have the responsibility to protect my child (by not letting him eat junk food all the time, for example) but I don't have the right to alter his body as I see fit (like tattooing him, for example). (maybe the legal right, but not an ethical one)

I can respect your husband's point of view if he honestly believes circ'ing will "protect" his son, but I hope more research will change his mind.

[fourlittlebirds]

Right, Caroline. For instance, my son dislocated his thumb badly enough that it could not be fixed without surgery. It was traumatic enough for him that if he'd had the choice he wouldn't have spent one minute in the hospital -- but I made the decision for him that he would (even though the surgery itself carried risks) so that he would not to have to go through life disabled.

Which is why I think Lynsey's statement has to be qualified thus: we do not have the right to make the decision to remove or permanently alter a normal, healthy, functioning part of another person's body without their consent. If it's about believing that the foreskin is just a useless flap of skin that harbors disease, well then education is the key. But if it's just about fashion or feeling a duty to one's society to conform, well then I'm stymied. I don't see how it's fundamentally different from female genital mutilation or foot-binding. Different in degree, perhaps, but not in kind.

[msrog]

Wow, this thread is going along MUCH differently than the circ thread I started on my two mainstream twin boards, haha!!! I was attacked for putting the link to the "Where's My Foreskin?" article; can you imagine their responses if I posted a link to that video?!?

Caroline, thank you for the thread, and for the video link. I just watched the 3 minute one (second from the top) and it must be the most awful thing I have ever seen and heard. I will definitely send dh the link... to reaffirm his good decision 6 years ago with Nicolas.

We were ignorant new parents with no idea that someone wouldn't circ... Just seemed like what you do in the hospital after the birth. Never gave it a thought. Then my friend who ended up being our doula loaned me that Mothering magazine article (it had just come out, hot off the press, in the spring or summer of '98 when I was about 4 months pregnant). I read it, was astonished and convicted, and passed it to dh. Who actually read it. (He never reads parenting or marriage stuff I give him! haha) He immediately was disgusted and there was no doubt for either of us that we would NOT be circ'ing any boys, even though dh is.

Though I don't know why dh is, since his mother is from Venice Italy, where it's very uncommon to do that to a boy. I guess she wanted him to look like his American daddy, (though I can't be sure, since I've never seen my fatherin law's penis nor have asked, hee hee). My dh, too, was most convinced by the fact that the foreskin adds to sexual pleasure later in son's life, but also by the horrific procedure. (Which will now be reinforced by watching that video.) It was also easier for him, perhaps, since he remembered that his cousins and uncles in Italy most likely weren't circ'ed. He also said that he never remembered comparing penises with his dad or with other boys at school...

Oh, then I remembered my nephew is intact, and turns out his daddy is too (my brother in law). HIS mother and I had a good discussion about her decision not to, 44 years ago.

I think I'll post the link on those other boards anyway. And let you know what happens.

I'll say a prayer for you both, Caroline and Kabes, that your husbands will get enough information to make the choice to leave their beautiful boys alone.

P.S. I'm a Christian, and that line I hear sometimes really gets on me from my ignorant Christian friends: "well, God ordered his favorite people (the Jews) to do it, so it must not be that bad". Thank goodness I'm not Jewish, because I am SO happy to leave baby boys just as God created them.

[mum2tori]

I always thought I would have my sons circ'd. Just seemed like the thing to do (didn't everyone do it?? :eyesroll ), never really researched it before. Then I met and married DH. :)

Never came up with the first pregnancy because we found out that DD was a girl pretty early.

I think it was about a month before DS was born, another board I was on had about 17 out of 70 of us all pregnant within about 6 weeks of each other. :eek There was a lot of baby dust on that board. :LOL The discussion about circ'ing came up. That started a discussion between DH and I (you know how it is ;)) He was against (he's intact) and said it was a pointless procedure that no longer had a "purpose". We talked about it and I kind of deterred to him (not that I *really* was pro-circ anyways) because he was a little more "knowledgable" about the actual mechanics since he has one and I don't. ;) Honestly, it really was a mutual decision to not. Radish won't be either. I think if I sent the video link (which I didn't click on, I don't need any nightmares :)) to DH he'd stop talking to me. :eyesroll He says I always send this horrible and depressing stuff to him. :)

He agreed that the argument about "matching" is a crock and not a valid reason at all. :)

We were never pressured by anyone about it and no one in the family commented one way or another.

I can't remember if it was my OB or the hospital asked if we were circ'ing (only to find out if the procedure was needed) and we said no. Never another comment made. And when we went to our Pedi, he asked if we planned and we said no. He was like that's fine, it isn't a medically necessary procedure and explained "proper" cleaning care which of course was mainly LEAVE IT ALONE. :)

I rememeber a couple months later a friend asked my advice about not circ'ing (first boy after 3 girls) and she was getting a lot of pressure from family members (not her DH) about it. I was just supportive for her and was able to help her not second guess or worry about their decision not to circ.

Why do family members feel it is their right to force their parenting (and any other) views on others?? :irked: :irked:

[Caroline248]

P.S. I'm a Christian, and that line I hear sometimes really gets on me from my ignorant Christian friends: "well, God ordered his favorite people (the Jews) to do it, so it must not be that bad". Thank goodness I'm not Jewish, because I am SO happy to leave baby boys just as God created them.



Yeah..that arguement falls flat too...there are MANY things ordered in the Old Testament that most Christians don't follow, why in this country we pick THAT one, I have no idea!!! Anyone here offer a one year old female goat for sacrifice anymore??

Caroline

[Caroline248]

Which is why I think Lynsey's statement has to be qualified thus: we do not have the right to make the decision to remove or permanently alter a normal, healthy, functioning part of another person's body without their consent. If it's about believing that the foreskin is just a useless flap of skin that harbors disease, well then education is the key. But if it's just about fashion or feeling a duty to one's society to conform, well then I'm stymied. I don't see how it's fundamentally different from female genital mutilation or foot-binding. Different in degree, perhaps, but not in kind.



I am not disaggreeing with what is right/wrong about circ'ing, I just am saying that that particular arguemment will not work with my DH. I really am just looking for a way to discuss this with him that will work with his mentality....

Caroline

[mum2tori]

Caroline-

What specifically are his "reasons" for wanting to circ? I can ask David to give his input on them if you'd like. Might help your DH to hear from a man's point of view. ;)

[yllek]

Originally Posted by msrog

P.S. I'm a Christian, and that line I hear sometimes really gets on me from my ignorant Christian friends: "well, God ordered his favorite people (the Jews) to do it, so it must not be that bad". Thank goodness I'm not Jewish, because I am SO happy to leave baby boys just as God created them.


Okay, here's one for ya... My DH is circ'd, he's a family practice doctor who is trained to perform circs, he's Jewish, and he's adamantly opposed to circs. :D It's going to be very interesting when DH's mom first changes baby's diaper. Sometimes, I just love to rock her world -- hee, hee!

Kelly

[SiValleySteph]

Another September momma here. DS won't be circ'ed. DH isn't either. Wasn't too much discussion on it really. :)

Sometimes we wonder because my grandfather had to be circ'ed in his 80's and it was apparently very painful. But should we really remove something on the off chance it might need to be removed later? I mean, I got my tonsils out at 18... should we take out everyone's tonsils just in case?

So we won't be circ'ing. We do feel the foreskin has value for sexual pleasure.

[msrog]

Wow, Kelly, that IS a unique situation!!! What fun for you to see your mil's reaction, hee hee.

Thanks for sharing.

[mealymama]

there are MANY things ordered in the Old Testament that most Christians don't follow, why in this country we pick THAT one, I have no idea!!! Anyone here offer a one year old female goat for sacrifice anymore??

Caroline


Ummm... Christians don't sacrifice b/c of Jesus' sacrifice, Jews no longer sacrifice b/c the Temple was destroyed...


Okay, here's one for ya... My DH is circ'd, he's a family practice doctor who is trained to perform circs, he's Jewish, and he's adamantly opposed to circs. It's going to be very interesting when DH's mom first changes baby's diaper. Sometimes, I just love to rock her world -- hee, hee!

I am more than a little concerned when people who know a few Jews (usually non-observant or reformed) who don't circ use this as a basis to their belief that circ'ing is wrong for all Jews. I just want to point out that this conversation can get a little dicey when you bring G*d into it, and unless you really want an all-out religious debate where people could feel battered, it might be best to tread lightly.:tiptoe

[yllek]

I am more than a little concerned when people who know a few Jews (usually non-observant or reformed) who don't circ use this as a basis to their belief that circ'ing is wrong for all Jews. I just want to point out that this conversation can get a little dicey when you bring G*d into it, and unless you really want an all-out religious debate where people could feel battered, it might be best to tread lightly.:tiptoe

Who in the world said that circ'ing is wrong for all Jews? :shrug My mil will probably want to make the argument that because our baby is half-Jewish, he needs to be circ'ed, but DH feels differently. This issue is going to be an inflammatory one in this house when the baby arrives. However, my comment was not meant to spark a religious debate here, nor do I want to get into all the reasons why DH and I don't want to circ. Just participating in a thread looking to hear different partner's perspectives. I thought my DH's perspective was rather... um, unique.

[Caroline248]

Ummm... Christians don't sacrifice b/c of Jesus' sacrifice, Jews no longer sacrifice b/c the Temple was destroyed...




I am more than a little concerned when people who know a few Jews (usually non-observant or reformed) who don't circ use this as a basis to their belief that circ'ing is wrong for all Jews. I just want to point out that this conversation can get a little dicey when you bring G*d into it, and unless you really want an all-out religious debate where people could feel battered, it might be best to tread lightly.:tiptoe


I wasn't saying anything about Jews circ'ing or not. And we are not bringing God into it. Just different perspectives. Who said circ'ing is wrong for all Jews???? And I used my example because when Christ died, the Old Testament laws were abolished for Believers. My point was that many Christians blindly do it because it was called for in the OT. And quite honestly, I don't feel that this conversation was getting dicey at all...just people shareing opinions. If you read the first post, you would see the point of the topic I opened.

Caroline

[merpk]

Who in the world said that circ'ing is wrong for all Jews? :shrug My mil will probably want to make the argument that because our baby is half-Jewish, he needs to be circ'ed, but DH feels differently. This issue is going to be an inflammatory one in this house when the baby arrives. However, my comment was not meant to spark a religious debate here, nor do I want to get into all the reasons why DH and I don't want to circ. Just participating in a thread looking to hear different partner's perspectives. I thought my DH's perspective was rather... um, unique.




yllek ... this may be inflammatory, too, but there's no such thing as religiously "half-Jewish." Culturally, perhaps, ethnically, okay ... but religiously, no. And the obligation of bris milah is a religious one.

So according to the rules of the *religion* ... which is where the bris comes from ... your baby is not at all Jewish. And there is no need to circ. At all.

You may wish to remind your MIL of this, & thereby stop the argument before she starts it ...

:)

[Caroline248]

yllek ... this may be inflammatory, too, but there's no such thing as religiously "half-Jewish." Culturally, perhaps, ethnically, okay ... but religiously, no. And the obligation of bris milah is a religious one.

So according to the rules of the *religion* ... which is where the bris comes from ... your baby is not at all Jewish. And there is no need to circ. At all.

You may wish to remind your MIL of this, & thereby stop the argument before she starts it ...

:)

That sounds like a raelly great way to explain it to the In-laws...but of course, we christaned our babies becasue my MIL said we had to....it was the Catholic tradition. Of course, we are not raising our babies Catholic..but that is another thread!!

It is such a tough call sometimes to reconcile your cultural/ethnic beliefs with another theory.

Ok..this thread is going to get all riled up, which is exactly what I didn't want to do. That is why I posted it here and not in the circ board...I still haven't figured out how to go about hte topic with my DH....

Caroline

[Caroline248]

Caroline-

What specifically are his "reasons" for wanting to circ? I can ask David to give his input on them if you'd like. Might help your DH to hear from a man's point of view. ;)



I think his reasons are not really medical, more societal. We honestly don't know ANYONE IRL who hasn't circ'ed their baby. So the whole "It is becoming more mainstream" doesn't work. I think he is afraid of his son being different, and that is all it boils down to. He says he was done, our son was done...all those men that were done really don't have issues...you know, the usual "I got over it..so will he".....

I don't think he feels it is a big deal, so why not do it? TO ANTI-CIRC'ING READERS.... I know, there are reasons..I am NOT argueing the point to do it or not to do it. I am trying to have a conversation with my DH, approaching things from his view....the medical stuff does not work for him.

Caroline

[chrissy]

Caroline, So when your little boy is 10 will it be okay with your dh if he picks on another kid because everybody else is, or smokes a cigarette because everyone else is? Because really what your dh is wanting to do is give in to peer pressure.

Also, every child is going to be different in one way or another. And that isn't a bad thing. And it's our job as parents to teach them that being different isn't a bad thing. If a bully wants to pick on your son he will find something to pick on.

If your son is intact and in a locker room and another guy is making fun of his penis, don't you think that guy is the weirdo???

I'm sorry you are in this situation. I agree with the others who said that knowing what I know I would never let a child of mine be circ'ed. Our children are ours together but neither of us has a right to alter those children's bodies in any way that is detrimental, painful, and irreplaceable. Certainly we will make decisions for our children but it is our job to make the *right* decisions for the *right* reasons.

[banana girl]

Thankfully, for Jerome and I, this really hasn't been an issue. My hubby is cir'd, has never really felt the loss, but has no desire to have his child "match" him.
We both are generally of the opinion that the foreskin is there for a reason and there is no sense in subjecting a child to unneeded surgery. If we are unwilling to give birth in hospital in order to avoid interventions... etc then why would we elect to have a child "altered" by the same institutions we are avoiding in the first place???
I'm sure our child will have perfectly beautiful body (no matter what) and I can't hardly wait to see it!

Anna Banana
P.S. Besides the more of us "weirdos" say no to circumcision, the more "mainstream" it WILL be. Go crunchy granola mamas!

[4under6]

Did I ever mention that my three circ'd brothers never knew my dad was intact until about a year before he died (he was 75 when he died). And each of my bro's were very close to dad their whole lives.

So that goes to show you how much they paid attention to whether or not they "looked like dad"!
I didn't know my dad was intact until about the same time, (the subject came up after we started having problems with Donny's circ), and I thought it was so sweet how PROUD he was of his intactness!

Love ya, Dad! :love

[Caroline248]

Did I ever mention that my three circ'd brothers never knew my dad was intact until about a year before he died (he was 75 when he died). And each of my bro's were very close to dad their whole lives.

So that goes to show you how much they paid attention to whether or not they "looked like dad"!
I didn't know my dad was intact until about the same time, (the subject came up after we started having problems with Donny's circ), and I thought it was so sweet how PROUD he was of his intactness!

Love ya, Dad! :love



Now that is interesting. The way my DH talks, you would think that men routinly compare their penis'. Weird. I think I am just not going to do it and not make a big deal about it. I am the one in the hospital, I will be the one filling out the forms. He won't confront me right after I have given birth!! I am pretty much golden for a while after that!!!!

Thanks to all you September mommies that helped...I appreciate it!

Caroline

[adventuregirl]

No circing here, and dh is on board. DH is circ'd, and didn't really feel strongly either way, so me being against it was pretty much enough of an argument for him. I offered to show him research, but he was fine with trusting me, knowing I had done my homework.

I can imagine it would be tough to disagree on this subject, as women it is hard for us to know what the whole "life with a penis" world is all about. But its not like men walk around with them hanging out all the time. You can see the size and shape of most women's breasts by looking at them in public. I have certainly not had the privledge if seeing so many penises, nor has the average man. I'm glad we aren't boob-jobbing at the same rate so we all look alike.

I must admidt that I am a little disappointed I have never had the opportunity to have sex with an uncirc'd man. :blush Too late now....

[woobysma]

I can imagine it would be tough to disagree on this subject, as women it is hard for us to know what the whole "life with a penis" world is all about.


DH tried the "you don't have to live with one" arguement.... I told him I have to live with his and how it functions definitely affects me, too.

[mealymama]

I wasn't trying to say anybody had said anything wrong, I just didn't know where it was going, and *it can* get dicey, that's all. I'm sorry, I've seen some sort of unpleasant things in the circ'ing board and I got a PM from someone who was very opinionated about the subject of what Jewish families should and shouldn't do, and she wasn't Jewish... this came in response to a post in the vaxing board, she had no idea where I stood on circ'ing OR religion, but I guess she thought she'd throw in her 2 cents. :eyesroll
merpk, wouldn't the baby be a Jew according to reformed Judaism?

[mum2tori]

I didn't get a chance to post this yesterday. I told David about this thread. I explained what you were wanting input about Caroline.

He's response was:

What it really boils down to honestly is the "social issue" of being "different". Despite that common belief, guys don't stand around comparing themselves (okay maybe when they are 4-5 ;) :rotflmao and also trying to convince the little girls to show them theirs too ;) ) but not when they are older and it becomes a self esteem issue. It is your job as a parent to instill the self-confidence in your son that his body is beautiful and no one can make him feel that is isn't. And if there is a boy that ever says something to him in the locker room... it's THAT boy's issue. Not your son's. Your son should have the confidence to reply to the boy "Why are you looking at it in the first place? Why are you concerned with how I look?"

:)

As time goes on, more and more boys will not be circumsized. It's isn't the quite the standard that it once was. Especially since if you ask most Peds and/or OBs (since they are the one to commonly do the procedure) it isn't a medical necessity.

[candiland]

:clap

Wow, I got really nervous when I read the initial post.......... and all I have to say is, good for YOU, mamas! You ROCK! Your children will not be traumatized by excruciatingly painful, unnecessary cosmetic surgery as infants.

If anyone has questions about intactness or circumcision, we have some extremely knowledgable people over on the "Case Against Circumcision" board that would love to hear from you! :thumb

[Brisen]

We didn't circ our first two boys, and won't if this baby is a boy. DH isn't circ'd. As far as we know, the guys in our families aren't circ'd. I know my bro isn't because I've seen naked baby pics of him, and I assume my dad isn't because his brother had to be circ'd when he converted to Judaism to marry his wife. It is far less common in Canada. It isn't covered by our health care because it isn't considered medically necessary (though I think that this may be a recent change).

Dh was totally unaware that anyone who wasn't Jewish ever circ'd their boys. (I was too.) I know the boys' showers and locker rooms at our HS had no curtains, so he must have seen other guys naked. I don't think he would have taken any really close looks, though, and I don't think he would even know what a circ'd penis looks like. I didn't until I saw circ'd babies having their diaper changed. It was a non-issue for us. He doesn't understand the argument that it's cleaner at all. He's very particular about bodily cleanliness, probably moreso than any guy I've ever met, and he says he couldn't stand to have that part of him exposed and getting dirty all the time.

I've also never heard the argument from Christians that since it was a commandment in the Old Testament, we should do it today. But apparently, I'm just sheltered. I was really surprised to see circumcised boys at a new moms group I attended, especially when it seemed pretty clear that they weren't Jewish (like the mom who talked about her son's baptism, or the mom whose kid was fair with red hair, who had an Irish name, first and last, and who had Celtic paraphenalia decorating her son's clothes and her diaper bag). I really had no idea that it happened. I guess I'm just sheltered. :innocent

[merpk]

merpk, wouldn't the baby be a Jew according to reformed Judaism?

This is so off-topic it'll get us in trouble. But I'll risk it fast ... according to Reform Judaism, the child of a nonJewish mother and Jewish father is to be considered Jewish *only* if the family has a membership in a synagogue and the child is enrolled in classes and the family intends to raise the child Jewishly. So there is some sort of standard there. (This information is from BIL who is in the situation ... wife isn't Jewish, child isn't Jewish, but they have become active in the local Reform synagogue so that she will be considered Jewish there.)

Also, remembering that Reform officially denies the divinity of Jewish law, I am not understanding why the boy child of a Jewish father and a nonJewish mother would use their Reform Judaism as an excuse to circ. Not only is the child not Jewish, but Jewish law is not an issue for the Reform movement. So that's two strikes against a circumcision. Because it would *not* be a bris ... *again* because the child is not Jewish and the bris is based in a Divine decree.

Can't say it too many times. Tell the MIL to get over it. Really. If she insists that because her son is Jewish that her grandson is Jewish, and because of that they must circ, *she's wrong.* According to the Reform movement, it is not a requirement ... so why do it?

There. Have I said it enough?

Yeowch. Am waiting for the mods to tell me to delete, which I will happily do forthwith ...

[candiland]

Ooooh, Amy, you are sooo naughty! :nono




:LOL

[yllek]

I'm kinda sorry I brought up the whole Jewish-thing at all. :bag: The issue is slightly more complex because I am Asian whose parents are Christian, so our kid is going to have a bi-cultural/religious heritage. So my mil makes a lot of comments along the lines of making sure that "her side" is represented (this all started around the wedding). :eyesroll I don't really care whether or not she feels that we need to circ our son. We're not doing it - she'll have a little tantrum, but then she'll have to get over it. Thank you, ladies, for all your support. I'm not worried about my mil, just anticipating a lot of drama.

Anyways... I truly did not mean to hijack this thread. I just wanted Caroline to have a little more ammunition with a story about a circ'ed Jewish doctor who knows all about circ'ing little boys, but who also doesn't feel the social pressure that he's going to go through within his own community is enough to warrant a circumcision. (Whew - that was an awful sentence. I hope you could follow that).

Kelly

[merpk]

... I just wanted Caroline to have a little more ammunition with a story about a circ'ed Jewish doctor who knows all about circ'ing little boys, but who also doesn't feel the social pressure that he's going to go through within his own community is enough to warrant a circumcision. (Whew - that was an awful sentence. I hope you could follow that) ...

Yes, follow it completely ... and you should know that it's based on a false assumption.

Jews do not feel any social pressure to circumcise. They do, however, feel religious (and apparently cultural) pressure to have a bris milah ... which only pertains to Jewish boys, and of which circumcision is only a part (weirdly worded, too, I know) ...

It always sounds good to say "the Jewish doctor who won't circumcize," but like I say, that's based on the false assumption that Jews want anyone else to circumcize.

They don't.

:)

[fourlittlebirds]

"I think he is afraid of his son being different, and that is all it boils down to."

Well, the fact is that he is going to be different from *someone*, no matter what choice you make. Disclaimer -- to me, the social argument is not valid (not even if 100% of men in our society were circumcised!,) but going on the assumption -- that is, working from your husband's mindset -- that it is, here is what I would say:

Non-religious circumcision is something that happened for a very small part of human history -- several decades of the 20th century -- due to the notion that the foreskin invites disease (wrong) and that it aids sexual pleasure (right) which for a time was a big no-no. For no other reason were millions of men deprived of a functional organ. As the public and medical establishment have slowly become educated, the circumcision rate has dropped. In 1950 nearly 100% of male babies in the United States were circumcised; the rate has fallen steadily to where it is nationwide under 60%. In some areas the circumcision rate is closer to 40% (as is the case where I live.) Assuming that these numbers will continue to drop -- and they will, bar society becoming severaly sexually repressed again, because the science is on the side of keeping the foreskin intact -- by the time your son is an adult, he will be in the minority if he's circumcised.

Your husband is no doubt concerned about the present though. In other words, will your son be ostracized and humiliated when he is eight years old in the school locker room? If your husband is right -- if boys and men in your community have occasion to size up each other's penises and are obsessed enough with the way penises look to actually make judgements about them -- then it's a valid concern. Maybe that would do more harm to his psyche than not being sexually complete. But from my perspective it would be better to remove my son from such a repressive, judgemental culture than to permanently alter his body, without his consent, to fit into it.

My first husband was from the deep south, and I spent some time there with him. Despite initially believing that I was strong enough in myself to not be affected, my self-esteem plummeted when I was constantly being bombarded with messages that my natural self -- hairy armpits, plain hairstyle, no makeup, small breasts, big thighs -- were not acceptable in that culture. Rather than compromise that in myself which made me true and whole, I chose to leave that culture.

This is kind of how I think of body modification in general. If it is bogus for me to have to get breast implants or have liposuction to be acceptable (or, in other societies, bound feet, or female genital mutilation, or what have you) why isn't it bogus to remove my son's foreskin? In the cultures and sub-cultures that promote such body modification -- often without the consent of the person it's being done to -- they regard the modification as either an improvement or not a big deal. Looking at it from the outside, though, we have perspective to see what is being lost.

And what if -- just what if -- your son doesn't experience the locker room judgementalism that your husband apparently has? What if he goes off to college or to live somewhere that the circ rate is negligible, and he learns what foreskins are for? How will he feel when your son asks him why he removed a sexually valuable part of his anatomy?

[fourlittlebirds]

I want to add, too, that my children are intact and my husband is circumcised. They see each other naked, and frankly, nobody has yet found it distressing that their penises look different from one another's. I honestly believe -- at least as far as fathers and sons go -- that it is a myth that they will become mentally disturbed by having a penis that is not exactly the same. It is not as if my husband is waving his erect penis around for them to see and claiming that is the standard of manhood, you know? They don't sit there comparing their penises in detail. They really don't. And when they do figure out that their papa's penis is significantly different than theirs, I imagine that when I explain why they *will* be upset -- for their papa's sake. For my sake even. But I suspect that they will feel lucky and thankful that they were spared, rather than traumatized because they are different. I figure that's how I'd feel if I found that my mom's body had been artificially altered in some way and mine hadn't.

[banana girl]

This weekend i got to meet a lovely little 2 day old boy named Korbin. As he was handed to me to hold, his mother (my dear friend) said " I hope he isn't too fussy for you, he was circumcised today"
It was interesting to me how dissapointed I was for him, that after 2 days of life, he had part of his lovely perfect little body removed. It must have shown on my face, cause she then asked me if I was going to have a boy cir'c or not. I non-chalantly said we were not intending to circ any of our sons. I didn't make a big deal of it at all, but she then proceeded to explain / justify their decision.

I didn't need her to justify it to me. It was their decision, not mine. However, i must admit her explanantion washed pretty thin, in my eyes. So he can match his father (her boyfriend of 10 months) and his older half brother. Hummmmm.... It seemed like she wished he was intact, but went along with the father's will in this case.
Personally, I don't expect their relationship to last and think she's gonna be left with mixed feelings about this choice forever. Obviously, I didn't voice this opinion... but found it interesting that we (two good friends) were tip-toeing around the issue.

I guess my point is that if you personally feel strongly about this matter it is your right and responsibilty to stand up for your child. If you end up regretting it later you have no one to blame but yourself.
I think the whole situation would have bothered me less if it hadn't seemed like she wasn't sure the right thing had been done.

Just my two cents
Anna Banana

[Mom2baldie]

Caroline,

Have you spoken to your pediatrician about his/her views on circumcision? I was pleasantly surprised when I spoke to mine when pregnant with Paityn (before we found out she was a girl) and she was very encouraging about leaving boys intact. I live in Texas and she said that in this area (I know its different everywhere) that the locker room excuse just doesnt hold up anymore because so many parents are deciding to leave their boys alone. Supposedly when Paityn (and this new baby) are teenagers, intact boys will be the majority (again, this is around here).

So maybe they will all be making fun of each other, but at least the numbers will be a bit more even...

[mum2tori]

Another thing about "looking like Daddy"... there is nothing that says it will look just like his anyways. YK? Each does look a little different. No two the same. ;)

You might want to ask him if he's really afraid of his son looking different or if he's afraid of looking different himself??

[Caroline248]

Caroline,

Have you spoken to your pediatrician about his/her views on circumcision? I was pleasantly surprised when I spoke to mine when pregnant with Paityn (before we found out she was a girl) and she was very encouraging about leaving boys intact. I live in Texas and she said that in this area (I know its different everywhere) that the locker room excuse just doesnt hold up anymore because so many parents are deciding to leave their boys alone. Supposedly when Paityn (and this new baby) are teenagers, intact boys will be the majority (again, this is around here).

So maybe they will all be making fun of each other, but at least the numbers will be a bit more even...



I did talk with my MW today. She is totally agains circ'ing, but she was very understanding about my husbands view. She also did agree that circ'ing IS the norm around here and we would be in the minority. Not a big deal to me, but that was one of my husbands concerns. She made my next appt for when DH could come, and she said she will be happy to talk to him as well.

What was interesting to me, she said that the more "educated" people (meaning upper class professionals) in our area were the ones choosing NOT to circ. That may be a great arguement to use....


Caroline

[Tree Swallow]

Regarding "locker room discussions" -- my son, now 7, HAS discussed the penis difference with his little friends as they pee together at school. And you know what? It was NO BIG DEAL. He asked about it and I answered. That's all it amounted to! The conversation went something like this. He was about 5.

Him: "Will's peenie has a ball on the end."
Me: "He's probably circumcised; that's where they take off the end piece, when they're babies."
Him: "Why didn't you take off my end piece?"
Me: "Because I wanted to keep you just like God made you. I didn't want you to go through any pain; you were a perfect little baby and I couldn't stand the thought of them cutting something off you!"
Him: "Oh. Good."
Me: "Yours looks like that underneath the piece of skin. It's called the foreskin."
Him: "Can I have a drink?"

We might have the discussion again; I don't know. All I'm trying to convey is that even if they DO notice a difference, it doesn't mean it's the end of the world and there will be emotional scarring involved. Just explain it in terms they'll understand. You'll be explaining why he's got blonde hair and Will has brown anyway. Kids are learning everyone's different. Viewed from that angle, Caroline, maybe your husband won't see it as such a big deal?

[MamaAcorn]

We're not circing this baby. We didn't circ DS1, but it was a very heated debate between DH and I before and after he was born. I was dead set against it, but I told DH if it meant that much that our son have it done, then he would have to arrange to have it done, and he had to be there to comfort him during it. He never got around to making any of the phone calls.

It's still a very sensitive topic with DH, but when the midwife asked about it a month ago, he was the one who piped up and said NO. I'm grateful that we'll have two intact little boys!

Pam

[Caroline248]

. Just explain it in terms they'll understand. You'll be explaining why he's got blonde hair and Will has brown anyway. Kids are learning everyone's different. Viewed from that angle, Caroline, maybe your husband won't see it as such a big deal?



That is the route I am taking...he has agreed to talk to the MW about it, so I have hope!!

caroline

[JenInMpls]

Me: "Yours looks like that underneath the piece of skin. It's called the foreskin."
Him: "Can I have a drink?"

I love little children!!!

:love jen

[msrog]

Ellen, what a cute little story! I'm glad you remembered/recorded it so you could share it with us two years later. I'm still waiting for Nicolas to notice Daddy's is different, but he hasn't said anything. He still showers with me and with dh occasionally. (Is that weird? Sure doesn't seem like a big deal to us, but I remember thinking it was iffy when a day care girl I watched showered with her Daddy still at the age of 4 or 5... Nicolas is almost 6.)

Acornmom, what a great perspective you add to this discussion, and how encouraging it must be for Caroline!

Lynsey, I too was pleasantly surprised to hear my docs didn't feel circ is necessary. Seemed even to be against it (she said if we were to circ, she would want to do it instead of the hospital ped, since she was trained in Canada and uses a "more humane" technique.) (So why do you do them at all? I wanted to ask them...)

[JenInMpls]

:OT

(Is that weird? Sure doesn't seem like a big deal to us, but I remember thinking it was iffy when a day care girl I watched showered with her Daddy still at the age of 4 or 5... Nicolas is almost 6.)


It is my very staunch opinion that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a child being comfortable around his naked family members. It teaches the child that our bodies are beautiful and nothing to be ashamed of, a belief that seems to be quite rare in our society nowadays. At some point he will turn a corner and start wanting more privacy. I'm sure there are no reasons that he's continued showering with you other than he likes the company.

I'm getting off of my children + nakedness soapbox before I go too wild. Otherwise this will turn into a rant :soapbox

:D j

[Mom2baldie]

Savannah,

I dont think its weird at all. Riley is 6 and although he doesnt shower with me anymore, he is often in the room with me when I am. He doesnt really seem to notice anything, so until 1 of us starts feeling uncomfortable we'll just keep going the way we are going...

[Caroline248]

Savannah,

I dont think its weird at all. Riley is 6 and although he doesnt shower with me anymore, he is often in the room with me when I am. He doesnt really seem to notice anything, so until 1 of us starts feeling uncomfortable we'll just keep going the way we are going...


My son is 9 and just recently yelled at me when I walked in on him in the shower...my baby is growing up...... :crying

Caroline

[polka123]

what happens during a circ: :irked: :angry


http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/plastibell/

[banana girl]

:Puke

Gross!!

Anna Banana

[woobysma]

I just wanted to second Tree Swallows story with my own. DS noticed the difference last year (5yo) - he asked me one day on the way home why two of his friends (twins) were born with "round penises" (circ'd) and some were born with "long penises" like him........

when I told him some parents had the end of their sons' penis cut off when they were born - he gave me a look like this: :yikes: - first he thought I was kidding, then he said "thanks for not doing that" and he hasn't talked about it since. He didn't seem at all upset by the fact that he was different than his friends - just curious. He was actually more shocked when he found out I didn't have a penis "how do you pee????" :jaw

[wvmama]

I hope that poeple are still reading this. I have shared in a previous thread that I am a nursing student and while I was watching a baby with the nurses finger in its mouth scream through a circ we were told certain facts about circs like: 50% of males in US are circed, only 15% in the world are circed. 90% of male babies are circed on the east coast while only 20% on the west coast. non circed babies are becoming the norm. Also I was talking to a friend about circing and they say that they do it for religious reasons and they never go to church. I told him what it was like to watch a baby get circed and he said that it's in the bible so it is a sin not to circ. AHHHHHGGGGGGGHHHHH! I wanted to say that if he plans on following the bible so closely his wife shouldn't cut her hair and he should have eaten those pork chops for dinner. I am religious but hey...
later

[MistyD]

Congrats on baby Jackson! How about an update? I'm sure other mamas would love to read how your DH was convinced, to help them talk to their own DHs....

(I really hope it turned out the way you wanted it to!)

[StacyL]

I too, was wondering how it turned out for Caroline since the baby has arrived. Hopefully, she convinced her dh...

I know I'm finding this thread late, but I thought I'd put in my two cents:

I never thought much about it, just sort of assumed it was what you do to a boy. But then when I started realizing I wanted a homebirth, and not only that, but an UNassisted homebirth, I inevitably was lead to info regarding circumcision. The first time I brought it up to dh, about a month after we found out we were having a boy, it was a very tense discussion with him adamant about circing (Dh is circed). I didn't push it - in fact, I told him that I wasn't going to fight tooth and nail, and that ultimately I would defer to his wishes, BUT I said that I really felt uneducated about it and thought we should really do our homework first and have a darn GOOD reason for doing it before we just blindly did it. And I said I didn't think "to look like Daddy" was truly a good enough reason.

I then read for about two months on the topic and was horrified at what I learned. But here was the kicker: I found a website that showed all of the variations in the look of adult males circumsized penises, and it explained how ALL of these variations (most of which I had seen in my single days) were actually due to circumcision, and NOT how a penis is supposed to look. This just blew my mind! All of this time thinking back on the penises I had known, and thinking they were God's variations, when NO, actually they were all due to circ injuries! :eek

So, then one day while laying in bed after sex, I casually said to my dh, "Did you know that your penis looks like this because it was circumsized?" And I pointed out two characteristics he had. Well, he was quite shocked! I then read aloud to him a few things I had come across, and then gave him one article to read against circing written by an MD. It mentioned that penises are usually longer and more sensitive when intact. Well, that was it. A few days ago, he told me we didn't have to circ our boy and that he was really ok with it! I am so happy! I think the part of him feeling he may have missed out by being circed was what got him.

HTH!

[4under6]

Yay, Stacy!

We left our new little boy intact; our first is circd and we regret it. I am so happy we informed ourselves!

[fourlittlebirds]

Wow, Stacy, way to go!

I think I probably said this before, but to me it comes down to the fact that it is not my body to do with what I like, yk? I mean, yes, we as parents sometimes have to make decisions to do certain things to our children's bodies in order to protect them from harm or illness or whatever, but to cut off a part of a baby's body in order to prevent an extremely rare form of cancer, say, is like cutting off baby girls' breasts to prevent future breast cancer. And we know how common breast cancer is. But the reason we don't is because our society recognizes the breasts as having a function (at the very least providing visual pleasure to men.) Whereas most people have NO idea that the foreskin has a function -- they just assume that it's an extra piece of useless skin. :(

In any case, even it it was just a piece of useless skin, I wouldn't cut it off anymore than I would cut my children's earlobes off. Because it comes right back down to the fact that it's not my body, so I don't have the right to make the decision for my child to alter it permanently unless it is obviously malformed or diseased, and that is not the case with a healthy foreskin.