Dads, need your help with circumcision advice

[ella-makes-3]

I would just like to get some male points of view here about circumcision.
My husband is for it, and I am kind of against, but still a little on the fence.
My father was just recently circumcised 5 years ago, and I have known quite a few men and boys that have had to get the procedure done. He has very strong views for circumcision, meaning that left intact it smelt bad and caused some pain. An old boyfriend in college had to have it done when he was 19, for the same reasons.
Just wanted to get some male input on the subject, since I don't have a penis, and will never know what the problems that go along with having a foreskin or not entails.
If you feel uncomfortable chatting about this, please PM me, I just want some good feedback, thanks :thumb

[oohlalabags]

I wasn't sure what I'd do when I came face to face with the decision ... and i've had to make it 3 times! i've known men that had no circ and circ'd so i've heard both sides of the story... i basically left the decision up to my dh ... he knew what it was like and he made the final decision .. i gave him literature on the pros and cons and we talked about it .. it's just such a strange thing

[feebeeglee]

Posted a cross-link to this thread in the Case Against Circumcision forum.

[Quirky]

Why don't you let your son decide for himself? It's his body. If he ever has problems with his foreskin like your adult father and adult friend have had (which is actually quite rare) then he can make the decision himself (assuming he's an adult).

The foreskin if left alone and not interfered with (i.e. no premature retraction to wash under it) does not give the vast majority of men in the world any problems (80% of the world's men are intact). There is no good reason to cut it off at the infant stage on the very slim chance that it might have to happen later in life.

Think about it this way - if your mother had had repeated yeast infections and decided to get her labia cut off as an adult, would you have wanted her to cut off yours as a baby on the off chance you might have the same problems later?

That's actually not the world's best analogy, because the foreskin is 80% of the penis' skin system and 50% of its erogenous tissue. But I think you'll understand my point.

[colaga]

Why would any man want his infant son's penis ripped apart and cut in an excrutiatingly painful way, I will never understand. It's totally barbaric; America sure is a strange country.

[Doodlebugsmom]

My husband would never get on here and post this, so I'm posting it for him. He is circed. He has some sexual complications from the circ. It is very painful for him to withdrawl his penis after having sex. It is also very painful for him to pee after sex. I mean it is excruciating. He has always known this is a result of circ. I recently read that the peeing after sex is a very common complication of circ. We were talking about it the other night and we were both in tears. We can't believe that people make this decision for their children. There was no way that we would've even considered circing our son.

[SaveTheWild]

Posted a cross-link to this thread in the Case Aginst Circumcision forum.

I think maybe she posted here to get insight from dad's in general, rather than from those who frequent the case against circumcision forum, which only supports one POV on this issue.

[Quirky]

Well, I'll post for my dh since he doesn't post here. He too has had problems from his circ:
1) his penis bows to the right when erect because so much skin was removed during circumcision;

2) there are hairs pulled up onto the shaft when he is erect, which causes me irritation -- again this is because they didn't leave him enough skin;

3) he has had problems at various times with premature ejaculation and impotence, both of which occur at higher rates in circumcised men; and

4) we both have problems with dryness and have to use lubrication during intercourse (the circumcised penis acts as a one-way valve to pull moisture out of the vagina, so again vaginal dryness is more common in partners of circumcised men).

His circumcision is extremely tight and I believe his erection would be longer if he had sufficient skin for it.

Even if my dh hadn't had sexual problems as a direct result of his circumcision, I reject the argument that the man should decide this issue because he has the penis. If he has been circumcised his entire life then he has no idea what the foreskin is, what it does, and what it feels like. It would be like asking a lifelong deaf person to decide whether his baby should be hearing or deaf - he simply doesn't have a basis for comparison.

As my son's mother my first job is to protect him from anyone and everyone who might hurt him, and that includes his father. As the partner of someone who has had lifelong sexual problems from circumcision I feel well-qualified to speak to the harms it causes. As a human rights advocate it is my place to speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves.

[boingo82]

My DH was initially for it - because that's just what you do, right? I mean, of course we'd circ...
As soon as he found out that it hurts the baby and has no medical benefit, he changed his mind.

Here's an article that may help you talk to your DH.
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html

BTW..if you're unsure, just delay it. You can always circ later but can't un-circ. Anyhow, babies are more sensitive to pain at birth than when they're older, and if your DS has any issues like eczema or heart murmurs or whatever that pose risks when circing, you'll have more time to know about them. Any other surgery on babies is delayed as long as possible so the baby can build an immune system and so any contraindications will be known.

[Frankly Speaking]

Intact men in the last 50 years in America have had to put up with some absolutely awful discrimination. I say *had to* because this is rapidly changing and now almost 50% of boys are left intact and those awful attitudes are quickly becoming a thing of the past. I firmly believe that this discrimination is the true reason for many of the "necessary" circumcisions.

Consider that many people who have never even seen an intact penis will say that they are dirty, smelly, nasty and just downright ugly. They will say this to a man when they have no idea whether he is circumcised or intact. Imagine how this makes this man feel!

To give a close analogy . . . Imagine a woman had a mastectomy and was with a group of people who were talking about how horrible women looked that had this procedure and how thoroughly disgusting it was and how they just looked so abnormal that it was sickening. Then imagine that they also said that women who had mastectomies were nasty and smelly and were likely to spread disease to their partners. This woman would be so traumatized that she likely would avoid all contact with men and would absolutely avoid any possibility that someone could discover she was the victim of breast cancer.

In this situation, the women would seek reconstructive surgery so she wouldn't be ostracized from society. In reality, the person saying those things would be sternly criticized and rightly so. However, people can say the same kinds of things about an intact man to his face and all of the rest will join the "Uh Huh Squad" in personally insulting him and the expected reaction is for him to accept this verbal punishment. Of course, he will be just like the woman who will not stand up for herself and will submit himself to the surgery. However, if he does have a circumcision, he is regarded as being narcisistic which is also not acceptable so the story is changed to be a *necessary* circumcision. Soicety has given him little other choice.

This is all changing with the generation being born today. They will say "to hell with society and their perverted norms. I want alll of the sexuality I was born with! It was my body and nobody had any business messing with it." This is a scenario that will play itself out in many families begining in just a few years. Actually, it has already started. I know a 15 year old that has had major problems with his parents because they circumcised him. It has literally torn the family apart and it is not what you would think. They steadfastly stick to the opinion that it was their choice and he had no rights to his body and that it is not important and that he needs psychological counseling. This has been going on for well over a year. If they had addressed his concerns and just admitted that they didn't know and that they were sorry they had violated his body, the waters would have calmed fairly quickly.

The fact is that the natural male organ is no dirtier than the natural female organ, is less problematic than the female organ and is no uglier than the female organ. There is also the fact that it is a needless and non-beneficial procedure that causes far more problems that it could possibly prevent and it is a voilation of a man's rights to the sanctity of his body and sexuality. Luckily for parents now, there is the vast powers of the internet to access truthful information that has been carefully hidden by the medical profession. Just as that information is easily accessible to you, it will be accessible to your sons. This has also become a very contentious issue and there is a flood of information in the media as they are begining to catch on. It will only increase in the future and it will become impossible to avoid it.

Currently in the media is the normal debate about the issue but there are also other items including the man who sued his circumciser and won, the Supreme Court case in N. Dakota where the Chief Justice has indicated that the boys civil rights have been violated, the recent death of the boy in British Columbia, the recent death of circumcision accident victim David Reimer and the very strong statements against circumcision by the CPS. The 13 states that have defunded Medicaid funding for the procedure has also made the news in the last several years. NOT in the news is the boy who died in Utah early last year and the boy in Florida who is currently comatose battling an infection from his circumsion. If he dies, there may or may not be a news report on it. The numerous circumcision deaths that happen here every year are usually carefully hidden from public view. The doctors do not want it publically known about the deaths and the parents also don't want it on the news media that their son died from a surgery that was done for purely cosmetic purposes and had no health benefit.

Is the natural male organ male organ problematical and is circumcision almost inevitable at some point in the man's life? Well, only in America. Detailed records have been kept for years in Scandanavia and those records indicate that at most, about 6 men per 100,000 men may need a circumcision at some point in their life. So why do we hear of so many circumcisions in America? Well, first there are the issues noted above that clearly not medical. The other reason is that in the past, so many men have been circumcised at birth in the last 50 years that many doctors have never seen a complete natural man and thus, they have not taken the time and effort to learn to treat them. I have been advising on this issue for several years and have had 30 or more mothers report that their doctor has recommended a circumcision or even insisted on it. In every single case, the boy was absolutely normal and only in two cases was there an actual infection which were both resolved in a matter of days with medication only. In one of those cases, it appears that the doctor was intentionally not giving medication to make a circumcision eventually necessary and in the other, it appears that the doctor did not know how to diagnose the problem. The most frequent diagnosis is "tight foreskin" or phimosis and 99%+ of the time, this diagnosis is wrong. Even though there have been numerous studies that show the contrary, one writer wrote that all boys should have retractile foreskins by age three and that seems to be the only one anybody reads. It is absolutely wrong and is the cause of the vast majority of post natal circumcisions.

Is an intact man naturally dirty? No, no more so than a woman. The hygiene issues are exactly the same. Any genital secretions and odors are essentially the same in quantity and quality for a man as for a woman. Daily bathing will easily take care of them for a man just as they will for a woman. The only difference in hygiene for an intact man is that he will grasp his foreskin between his finger and thumb and pull it back. From that point on, there is absolutely no difference, period.




Frank

[CrunchyMamaToBe]

left intact it smelt bad and caused some pain

I have never heard this (except from people arguing against circumcision). My partner is in tact and have never ever noticed a funny smell and he has never had problems with painful foreskin/ erection/ etc. And lemme tell ya, I dunno if this is just him, but he is so much more sensetive than the few circ'ed men I had been with in the olden days. My touch goes miles further. It's nice. ;)

ETA: I know you were looking for advice from dads, but I hope my advice was at least a little helpful

[u2slow]

I am an intact male. It is not painful. I do not believe it smells, nor does DW.

Growing up I had always believed intact was 'standard issue', and that circ'ing was the minority - something practiced by only a few religious groups. I was quite surprised, as highschool progressed, to hear that several of my friends were circ'ed.

My father, brother, and son are intact as well, and have not had any problems with their penises. I haven't asked, but with our Scandinavian background, odds are good my grandfathers were intact as well.

I'm happy with my penis. It's worked great my whole life. Why should it need to be surgically modified?

[hummingbear]

OK I'm not a guy but have a guy story to share.

A friend's grandfather asked her if her son had been circumcised. When she answered no he replied "Good for you. I could never understand why a father would want to do that to their child."

[Mama2Xander]

Hi, I'm Mama2Xander's DH,

I'm circ'ed, and personally have no problems, also we don't really like the look of a uncirc'ed penis (probably more just what we grew up with/used to). I'm glad I am circ'ed but I can't justify doing it to our ds. He can make the decision to circ. when he grows up if he wants, and I doubt he will. I think it is a matter of respect to not circ. If I had had my ears cut off or been given a tattoo or something as a baby I might not like that so much. It is a pretty random thing to do, weird to many, and totally unnecessary 99% of the time, so why do it? It is not funded in Canada and when last tallied only 17% of Canadian babies were being circ'ed. FYI

[djinneyah]

my intention is not to incite anybody's rage, simply to provide another POV.

my husband is circ'ed and has never had any problems, though he does have a small scar, but it does not interfere with the function of his penis. we had our son circ'ed (for our own reasons, which I will not go into here because I don't feel I should have to explain myself), however, we asked that the doctor perform a 'traditional' or 'loose' circumcision, which leaves a good portion of the foreskin, as opposed to a 'tight' circumcision, which is the type that leaves minimal to no foreskin at all and usually causes problems with erections, sexual function, etc.

my son's ped. is actually not pro-circ, and told us beforehand that the procedure is not medically necessary and no longer indicated for male infants. i asked what his personal belief was, as a father and a pedi., and he said that in his opinion (not mine, mind you), the pros and cons equal each other out, and while it is not medically necessary, in the end, it comes down to your own personal and religious beliefs.

IF you do decide to circ, i would recommend asking for a loose circumcision. if you have any questions for me, please feel free to PM me.

PS - please, i know everyone here has their own beliefs on this subject, and i totally respect that. i'm not trying to suggest that circumcision is right. i'm simply speaking from my own experience, and trying to provide a different POV. i know many of you reading this might not agree with me, but please don't attack me because of my personal and religious beliefs. thank you!

andi

[philomom]

My dS is not cut. My dH is. We took the Bradley childbirth classes and they are all about informed consent and informed refusal. We felt after some research that; son could not agree to it. Might have caused him pain that might interfere with bonding. Might have an affect on his later sex life.
At eight years old he looks fine, never smells bad and never has had any penile trouble. He does feel a bit sorry for cut boys but keeps it to himself.(like the santa thing)
My in-laws were horrified because they are Jewish, but it's not their kid is it? Here in large metropolitian area the rates are running pretty close to half, so my son will and has encountered penises of both types. As to the "looking like dad arguement", that's just silly. Your little boy will look different from his dad because of the size difference and pubic hair anyway.

[gurumama]

I live in New England too, ella. The circ rate is around 38%, so intact boys born in the last 3 or so years are the clear majority. There will be no "locker room" teasing for intact boys--indeed, it might be the other way around, with cut boys bearing the brunt of jibes.

My DH is circ'd--and so is our first son, who is almost 6. The first 11 days after his circ were AWFUL--he cried every time he peed, because it's salt water on an open wound. It interfered with his newborn sleep and made him very agitated.

When we had our second child 3 years later, we did a lot of researching into circumcision. In the end, we left ds2 intact. It was easy, there was no crying, and we figure ds2 can decide for himself, when he's a grown man, to have it done if he'd like to.

If you don't circ him, it's something that can always be done at a later time. If you DO circ him, you can never, ever take that back.

[Thursday Girl]

I don't believe in trimming dog's ears, or declawing cats, or cutting off the tails of horses or dog's. So why would I cut off a piece of my child? I believe we are made the way we are made for a reason. evolution changes living things over time, if males were meant to not have a foreskin they would eventually evovle.

I was talking to a co-worker about her son being circ' I asked how they do it.
She watched her son. He was strapped down, then without any anesthesia they cut off his foreskin. he screamed and cried. why, why do that to your child? Why put him through trauma and pain when it isn't nessecary? I mean why not just cut off his finger, or shave off the skin of his elbow??

I'm not trying to be controversial, or step on anyone's toes, this is just how i feel.

Also i have been with someone who wasn't circumsized and from a female point of view.: I liked it better. Things just fit better. Plus as has been mentioned they feel more sexual pleasure. Along with a host of other advantages that people have already covered not having anything to do with relations between two people.

[Dov]

Being Jewish, and circumcised, I feel for the guys that have difficulties with being so. I don't have any issues with it myself, but I hear what they're saying and I sympathize despite my differening feelings.

IMO, it makes no sense to circumcise if you're not in a religious tradition that does (and even then, that's still not good enough to just do it 'cause others in the tradition do, IMO) or, there being some sort of pretty compelling spiritual reason for doing so (IMO, these are rare and few in support of circumcising, so it's deeply personal and between parents and children in the context of their tradition/lifestyle). Even in my own faith-tradition, there is a continuum of thought on the practice. I know deeply religious/spiritual fathers who have left their sons intact and had an alternative brit milah instead. I respect either choice. I circumcised my son on the eighth day (and traditional circumcision leaves 80-90% intact anyway; I held him on my lap, he didn't cry, he didn't squirm and it took all of ten seconds by a skillful Mohel. I buried the bit of his foreskin under the tree from which someday branches will be cut for his chupah, should he choose to marry). I will live with my choice and hopefully my son will thank me and not hate me for my choice (over his body; the irony is not lost on me). The anti-circ crowd might call me a barbarian, and some have; but then there are venomous wingnuts on either side.

Candidly, my only concern is with my son's feelings later. But that is of course between him and me, and not one of the anti/pro circ folks have any business in that.

My father circumcised me and I have never had any difficulties. Of course, logically speaking, how would I know? I don't know any different. My wife has no complaints. My nephews are intact and my son has no issues with them and vice versa.

The only thing about circumcision that disturbs me is that there's entirely too much bile and ad hominem savagery going around between the "sides" and it seems to me, there needs to be less taking sides (even though I agree with anti-circs who say this should not be a universal praxis). Like I said, the reasons should be pretty damned compelling and it may be that letting one's son decide when he's old enough and has been fully informed (without the bile and vitriol of either side) is a much saner choice in most situations. But always, always, it is a matter that people should soberly assess and others really ought to be a whole lot more respectful of mens' choices in this matter. One need not agree to respect a fully informed choice. Many of the posts on this thread are really pretty offensive but not surprising at all. Reminds me of the anti-abortion vitriols... very shameful, IMO.

[momsgotmilk4two]

My dh is circ'd and is fully on board with *not* circ'ing our sons. The fact that it is no longer reccommended as a routine medical procedure by the AAP and causes undue pain to the baby was enough to convince him. There just doesn't seem to be adequete reason to do it. Our intact ds is two and so far so good, no problems at all. Our 4 yr old is circ'd because we really didn't know any better at the time. We had it done because we were too afraid not to, we were afraid he would be different from the other kids at school and the types of things that Frank was talking about in his earlier post. Good thing that things have changed, I just wish I knew that before we had him circ'd. The thing about circ'ing is that once it is done, you cannot go back and change things. If you leave him intact, there is room for him to decide to have it done later in life.

I also agree with the poster who said that if you decide to have it done, ask for a "loose" circ where they leave more skin. Your ds would be less likely to have problems with pain because of too tight skin with an erection. The only good thing I can say about ds 1's circ is that it is loose, there is plenty of leftover skin whereas my dh's is a lot tighter (but still luckily doesn't cause him any problems).

[number572]

I have never heard this (except from people arguing against circumcision). My partner is in tact and have never ever noticed a funny smell and he has never had problems with painful foreskin/ erection/ etc. And lemme tell ya, I dunno if this is just him, but he is so much more sensetive than the few circ'ed men I had been with in the olden days. My touch goes miles further. It's nice. ;)

ETA: I know you were looking for advice from dads, but I hope my advice was at least a little helpful


She said what I was going to say EXACTLY. My dp is South American so it is more cultural to leave babies intact for his family, not sure why it's more accepted here in N.A.??
As for the smell or painful part of your OP, none of that here. & he IS actually way more sensitive than my previous circ'd boyfriends. The comment about letting him decide when he's older makes sense, considering it's a slim chance something will bother him if he's intact as a child. Also if other males in your family decided for themselves they may be able to give him the pros & cons when that time arrives... hth!

[sammyrose]

With proper education regarding cleaning either way will be fine. The key questions involve why is it being considered (religious etc.). Research seems to indicate that there is some pain involved but there is disagreement on this.

If you circumcise I wuld use a referred moyel instead of the physician (they have more experience).

We circumcised our son (now 17 months) and I will say that we regularly received praise on the outcome of the proceedure from doctors and nurses. They all wanted to know who did it. I will also say that it was a difficult decision for me to make and many tears were shed prior to the event. Once the decision was made I was at peace and have been ever since.

The decision is for both parents to make and is unique to both of you and your son.

[Quirky]

Research seems to indicate that there is some pain involved but there is disagreement on this.


Completely untrue. There is quite a lot of medical research to indicate that circumcision is extremely painful, as would be expected from a surgery that slices away the most sensitive part of a baby's penis. Would any woman voluntarily allow any of her clitoris to be sliced away without anesthesia under the grounds that it doesn't hurt? Of course not.

In fact, both the AMA and the AAP strongly recommend that anesthesia be used in any circumcision, although all forms of local anesthesia currently available reduce but don't eliminate pain.

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/

The decision is for both parents to make and is unique to both of you and your son.

I disagree. The only person with the right to decide on genital surgery with no medical indication for himself is the owner of the penis.

[sammyrose]

Completely untrue. There is quite a lot of medical research to indicate that circumcision is extremely painful, as would be expected from a surgery that slices away the most sensitive part of a baby's penis. Would any woman voluntarily allow any of her clitoris to be sliced away without anesthesia under the grounds that it doesn't hurt? Of course not.

In fact, both the AMA and the AAP strongly recommend that anesthesia be used in any circumcision, although all forms of local anesthesia currently available reduce but don't eliminate pain.

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/



I disagree. The only person with the right to decide on genital surgery with no medical indication for himself is the owner of the penis.


I simply stated that there is disagreement on the issue of pain and its management. Of course there is research indicating that pain is felt. The professionals that disagree suggest that there either is none or it is minimal and handled through standard anesthetic practices. My post is factual.

As parents we make decision regarding our children's health all the time without consulting them and this may be considered no different. I also appreciate that many parents do consider this area different because they consider it medically unnecessary. Of course then you have many parents who beleive it is medically unneccessary to vaccinate and visa versa. The point is that parents who care about their children will have honest disagreements on these issues and the law and our society provides that the parents are responsible for these difficult choices.

A bit of grace in guiding not hammering the original poster would I'm sure be appreciated. Your opinon and research to the poster is always welcome but suggesting that it is the end all is not honest. They will be the ones deciding not me or you or any one else. I in fact have no opinion on the matter as to what they should do. I simply offered that the opinons of parents and professionals vary and for many reasons.

[Quirky]

I simply stated that there is disagreement on the issue of pain and its management. Of course there is research indicating that pain is felt. The professionals that disagree suggest that there either is none or it is minimal and handled through standard anesthetic practices. My post is factual.



Really? Prove it. Post your sources demonstrating that research shows that there is no pain or that it is minimal.

Oh, and nice use of the passive voice - "pain is felt" as opposed to "the newborn baby feels pain."


I in fact have no opinion on the matter as to what they should do. I simply offered that the opinons of parents and professionals vary and for many reasons.

Really? You have no interest whatsoever in justifying your decision?

Opinions vary, but facts do not. Again, come up with the research, and post it, then we can have a discussion. Otherwise hiding behind the unnamed and uncited "experts" carries no weight.

[boingo82]

With proper education regarding cleaning either way will be fine. The key questions involve why is it being considered (religious etc.).

I don't understand why everyone makes this big fuss about "cleaning". You are aware that cleaning procedure are exactly the same whether circ'd or intact, right?

Research seems to indicate that there is some pain involved but there is disagreement on this.

Research doesn't "seem" to indicate that there is "some" pain involved, in fact all research that has been done has indicated that the procedure is EXTREMELY painful. One study was called off because of the extreme distress of the babies due to their pain.
In fact, studies have shown that newborn babies are actually MORE sensitive to pain and feel it more intensely than do older babies.
The neonatal period is the most painful time to circumcise, period.

If you circumcise I wuld use a referred moyel instead of the physician (they have more experience).

And you will have no legal recourse in case of a botched job. Furthermore, mohels can't use anesthetic and are ill-equipped to deal with a complication.

The decision is for both parents to make and is unique to both of you and your son.

The decision is for the owner of the penis to make, of which the parents are most certainly not.

[sammyrose]

Really? Prove it. Post your sources demonstrating that research shows that there is no pain or that it is minimal.

Oh, and nice use of the passive voice - "pain is felt" as opposed to "the newborn baby feels pain."



Really? You have no interest whatsoever in justifying your decision?

Opinions vary, but facts do not. Again, come up with the research, and post it, then we can have a discussion. Otherwise hiding behind the unnamed and uncited "experts" carries no weight.

I spent many weeks going over the research before we made our decision and no longer have it. I also know that the pediatricians differ on this matter after their research review. They agree that it is unneccessary but do not agree on the degree of pain when an anethegic is used or its longevity. In addition even the research suggesting there is pain is not definitive on the level of pain. There are babies who have a wide range of responses to the proceedure. I hold no particular additional value to "experts". I mentioned "professionals" in light of evaluating the quality of the research. In almost every issue there is both poor research and higher quality research. I'm sure this is true with this issue as well.

No I do not have any interest in justifying my decision. The issue on the table is for this other couple to find their way to a decision they can feel comfortable with. My reasoning is mine and may not fit them. I do not need to justyfing my reasoning with anyone other than within my own family. At the time I felt completly free to nto have it done or have an alternative ceremony. I beleive it is possible for parents to come up with different valued ethical judgements on this issue so I do not need everyone to agree. My opinion is also based on more than scientific concerns and incorporates issues such as religious, cultural, community, peer relations, familial relations. These issues would all be weighted differently for each family.

In my individual son's case who is 17 months old he responded very well and with no indications after the proceedure showing discomfort, problems sleeping eating or anything else. He has been completely healthy, happy and does not show any signs of pain sensitivity.

All of this being said I am not suggesting that this family have the proceedure or not have it but rather they alone need to evaluate all the research and surrounding issues for themselves.

[dido1]

I'm hesitant to post on this topic because I know my views and decision are unpopular here, but here goes.

After much debate, my DH and I chose to circ our DS. We chose a private doctor in our city who is also a moyel (sp?). He uses three layers of pain blockers - baby Tylenol, topical anesthetic and then two needles of anesthetic. I can honestly say my son did not seem to feel pain during his circ (I say "seem" because I am not him and can only speak to what I witnessed). He didn't exhibit any symptoms of pain after the procedure either. He healed quickly, within about three days, and didn't cry at all with any diaper changes. I was shocked by this, because I expected the worst. My midwife was very impressed by the circ and said it was the best she'd seen, what ever that means.

I would personally have chosen not to circ but this was very, very important to my husband. I spoke to every man I know and asked for his opinion and only met one who was adamantly opposed, and I respect his opinion. What struck me when I was quizzing all my male acquaintances was that none of them spoke of their circs with any negativity, nor did any of them seem to remember having it done.

A previous poster commented that only 17% of boys in Canada are circ, but this is not actually correct. Statistics are only kept on circs performed in hospitals, not in private clinics or in religious ceremonies.

Anyhoo, that was/is our experience with circumcision...good luck with your decision.

[Britishmum]

"The decision is for both parents to make and is unique to both of you and your son."

This is such a weird lack of logic. Following on, I guess it would also be the parent's right to decide whether or not to remove a part of the baby's earlobes or finger tips?

"What struck me when I was quizzing all my male acquaintances was that none of them spoke of their circs with any negativity, nor did any of them seem to remember having it done."

If all you have ever had is a mutilated penis, what do you have to compare it to? The argument that it feels 'just fine' is ridiculous, if you've never experienced anything else. As for not remembering being strapped to a table and having a part of their genitals cut off, I can't recall much about my first weeks of life either. But I cannot imagine that the experience of circumcision would be all too pleasant. And the argument that it may not even hurt is simply laughable.

Just the thought of having my genitals cut then peeing on them brings tears to my eyes. How can anybody possibly believe that being cut anywhere on your body does not hurt? :scratch

"My midwife was very impressed by the circ and said it was the best she'd seen, what ever that means."

Hmm, something to be very proud of. To be impressed by the mutilation of a baby.

Ugh. I cannot believe what I read sometimes. :(

[Breathless Wonder]

There is a really excellent discussion about pain relief during circ going on right now:
http://mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=198109

The other thing is, I'm curious for those men who supposedly have no issues- have you done much reading on the complications- both small and large- of circ? You may find, like my husband did, that what he thought was "normal penile variation" is actually damage from the circ.

Edited to add: My DH just learned to cope with some of the various issues he has from his circ- but as far as I am concerned, I would prefer he didn't HAVE to learn to cope. And my DH internalized some of the issues from his circ as proof that he wasn't as "manly" as a man should be. It's pretty hard to deal with.

[dido1]

I believe the OP posted looking for people's real life experiences with circ. I posted my family's experience with circ honestly and factually - the only item I omitted was that the procedure was bloodless, something I should have mentioned.

I also think it is important that the OP understand from posts like mine that not all circs are done without pain blockers in some hospital backroom with baby strapped screaming to a board.

To the poster who wondered if I made this decision without educating myself, when making our decision to circ or not to circ, I watched several documentaries (all anti) on the subject, read anti-circ boards, websites, materials, pro-circ websites and materials and spoke to every man I knew, circ and intact. I also watched a video of the procedure done by the doctor we chose.

I learned that circ is not medically necessary, that it can go horribly wrong, like all medical procedures and that if you decided to do it, you should chose a experienced professional whose background you can confirm. I also learned that a small amount of men who are circed experienced complications and a small amount of boys/men who aren't circed experience complications. It seems the majority of men don't really give much thought to the cut or uncut state of their penises...

I met several men who weren't circed who had to be circed in their teens and expressed a desire that they had been circed at birth instead. I spoke with intact male friends who were absolutely, wonderfully happy with their penises and had never experienced any complications. None of the circed men I met expressed a desire to be intact, but I did watch interviews with and read stories of men who wished they were still intact.

Like I stated in my previous post, had this been my decision alone, I would not have had it done because I don't feel it is medically necessary. But I let my husband decide, as he is a man and has experienced this before.

To the OP, I hope my posts about my son's experience were helpful.

[phask158]

i was left as-is from the factory because of hypospadius--ie, circ wasn't an option. I've never heard of anyone who HAS to have it done. Why would my glans smell bad? It's just a flap of skin, like the folds in my armpit. No pain either.

Our son is intact, too. I don't feel strongly about it one way or another, though my wife was strongly against, despite being a conservative Jew. I think we ultimately decided that it would be pretty tough for him to reverse the decision to do it, and easy to reverse the decision not to.

[Dragonfly]

Like I stated in my previous post, had this been my decision alone, I would not have had it done because I don't feel it is medically necessary. But I let my husband decide, as he is a man and has experienced this before.

I just don't get this "logic." Your husband had this done to him, so yes, he experienced it, but he surely doesn't vividly recall the experience. Isn't the whole reason parents perpetrate this mutilation on their little boys when they're infants because they won't remember it? And don't you think that's the same reason that the formerly intact men you spoke with (who were unfortunately circumcised - probably few out of medical necessity, btw... more likely they were treated by overzealous physicians) wished they were circumcised as infants instead - so they didn't have to actually recall it? It's traumatic, obviously - otherwise, why would they have wanted to not remember it. Why would you knowingly inflict medically unnecessary trauma on your son... or, in your case, allow your husband to? Why does his experience - the immediate pain of which has been lost to him over time - give his position any validity at all when it has nothing to do with his body?

Why not let the owner of the penis decide? What stake do you circumcising parents have in the appearance of your son's penis, anyway? It's not as though you have to go through life with it... which is a shame, really. My guess is that parents would be a lot less apt to jump at the chance to mutilate their boys if they actually had to experience both the process and the aftermath themselves. :(

[dido1]

I feel the need to point out again, for the orginal poster's benefit, that my son did not seem to experience pain during his circ. Someone on the Case Against Circ board posted that a child is "hacked" at for 10 minutes during a circ, without anesthetic. Well, my son's cut took exactly 15 seconds, did not bleed, nor did he display any signs of trauma. After the procedure, he returned to his normal routine of eating and nursing, going through none of the extended periods of sleep or prolonged nursings I was told to expect. He did not cry or seem at agitated during diaper changes and was completely healed in three days. I also watched for signs of increased pasivity (sp?) or lethargy, as I know those are signs of trauma in some babies and saw none in my son.

I know someone is going to post the question "how do you know if your son experienced trauma or pain?". Well, my son had to have a battery of needles in the hospital after his birth due to some complications and that was painful and traumatic for him. We also choses to selectively vax our son and that was horrible. It took longer than his circ and there was no denying the pain and trauma he felt from that experience. He wept for an hour at my breast, then slept, slept and slept. It was horrible.

Please know that I am not trying to convince anyone that circ is good. However, I feel that the information given about circ on this board is only accurate to circs done in the traditional hospital manner. My son's circ was done in a very new way, by a doctor who uses three layers of pain blockers (and no, my son didn't even notice when the needles of anesthetic were administered). This method doesn't make circ right, but it is very, very different from what is describe as a circ procedure by other posters on this board.

[sammyrose]

I feel the need to point out again, for the orginal poster's benefit, that my son did not seem to experience pain during his circ. Someone on the Case Against Circ board posted that a child is "hacked" at for 10 minutes during a circ, without anesthetic. Well, my son's cut took exactly 15 seconds, did not bleed, nor did he display any signs of trauma. After the procedure, he returned to his normal routine of eating and nursing, going through none of the extended periods of sleep or prolonged nursings I was told to expect. He did not cry or seem at agitated during diaper changes and was completely healed in three days. I also watched for signs of increased pasivity (sp?) or lethargy, as I know those are signs of trauma in some babies and saw none in my son.

I know someone is going to post the question "how do you know if your son experienced trauma or pain?". Well, my son had to have a battery of needles in the hospital after his birth due to some complications and that was painful and traumatic for him. We also choses to selectively vax our son and that was horrible. It took longer than his circ and there was no denying the pain and trauma he felt from that experience. He wept for an hour at my breast, then slept, slept and slept. It was horrible.

Please know that I am not trying to convince anyone that circ is good. However, I feel that the information given about circ on this board is only accurate to circs done in the traditional hospital manner. My son's circ was done in a very new way, by a doctor who uses three layers of pain blockers (and no, my son didn't even notice when the needles of anesthetic were administered). This method doesn't make circ right, but it is very, very different from what is describe as a circ procedure by other posters on this board.


It is a challenge in some of these forums to post factual information or opinions that go against the grain. I find that many in the forums find it too threatening. I personally never read into your post that you were trying to convinve anyone of anything. You were simply sharing your experience and providing some factual information. Apparently it is important to some for everyone to think the same and act the same. I'm certain you did not arrive at your decision in haste and haphazardly.

The decision to circumcise my son was made after much research, contemplation and discussion. Frankly, years ago after witnessing a circumcision I thought I would only do a alternative ceremony with any cutting.

Like yourself, I am not interested in convincing anyone to do anything other than make their own informed decision based on the best information they can gather and what they feel is relevant to them. Each family will weigh the various medical, ethical, emotional, relationship, religious, community criteria differently. As long as the parents bring integrity to their process as you did I am comfortable.

[stonecold]

I would just like to get some male points of view here about circumcision.
My husband is for it, and I am kind of against, but still a little on the fence.
My father was just recently circumcised 5 years ago, and I have known quite a few men and boys that have had to get the procedure done. He has very strong views for circumcision, meaning that left intact it smelt bad and caused some pain. An old boyfriend in college had to have it done when he was 19, for the same reasons.
Just wanted to get some male input on the subject, since I don't have a penis, and will never know what the problems that go along with having a foreskin or not entails.
If you feel uncomfortable chatting about this, please PM me, I just want some good feedback, thanks :thumb

I think a couple of things must be clarified here.
first, the smell of a penis only depends on how often you clean it, and not on its circumcision status. All you have to do is "teach" your son to wash under under his foreskin when taking his shower, by retracting his foreskin, pass the water spray on it, and pull his forskin back over. It's that easy.

about the pain it may cause :
it does happen that foreskin may be a little tight, so it could cause a little pain when you retract it, but according to some studies, less than 1% of uncircumcized men know that problem, and it's almost always treatable without surgery. So this argument shouldn't be taken as a reason to systematically perform circumcision. Anyway, if this was to happen to your son, you should discuss it with your doctor first, and see what the different options are, instead of heading straight for circumcision.

and last, you should consider it's about your son's body here, not yours or your husband's. so when he gets older, he might be a little upset that you decided to remove a piece of his body without even asking him. I guess you should wait until he's old enough (maybe 10 or 11) to talk to him about it, and give him all the information there is to know about it, and give him the choice to decide whether he wants to have it done or not.
In my view, everybody should be the one to decide for the fate of their body, and that's the bottom line, coz' Stone Cold said so !

PS : feel free to email me or PM me if you want more information

[Dragonfly]

As long as the parents bring integrity to their process as you did I am comfortable.

You are comfortable? :tsk

There is no integrity in mutilating a child.

[girlndocs]

OMG.

Now there are people actually ADVOCATING CIRC AT MOTHERING?

OP, you need to go check out the circ forum here. Really, you owe it to your son to make 2 mouse-clicks in order to get the benefit of those amazingly informed people. I particularly recommend you read the sticky about parents who regret circing their sons. You can never un-circ.

The pros balancing out the cons? They don't feel pain? Proper cleaning procedures? A "loose" circ is somehow better? I'm not even a heavy-duty intactivist but I am literally nauseated by some of the stuff I'm reading here. Mods? Is this stuff within the rules??

[Britishmum]

"As long as the parents bring integrity to their process as you did I am comfortable."

I'm sure that if my family decided to mutilate me, as long as they brought integrity to the process, I'd be fine with it. :scratch

I'm rarely tempted to be sarcastic, but this thread is very disturbing. :(

[number572]

The op asked for male experiences, and all of the experienced males have posted AGAINST circumcising - or at the very least letting the boy/man decide for himself.

I't's still unclear why circumcision is done, when the people who are advocating it can't even state one logical, proven reason that it should continue. (religion excluded, although I don't understand that either personally)

[number572]

& the argument that it is a personal decision for each parent to make is self-serving & ridiculous, it's someone else's body... kids aren't our property, we're here to guide them & show them love & beauty & life & understanding.

[sammyrose]

I do not recall any poster actually advocating circumcision but rather noting that they chose to have it done. Some posters did state that the decision should be informed and made within the family.

I am an experienced male and I am circumcised, have had my son circumcised all for religious reasons and I have no complaints or regrets.

I am not advocating or suggesting that anyone have it done or not have it done in their own family.

I do not consider that when a parent makes this type of decision for thier son for religious reasons it is treating the child as property. I respect that others differ.

[boingo82]

And now we are back to the same 'ol ..
"I respect YOUR choice to leave your childrens' bodies be....and you should respect MY choice to have healthy bits cut off without their consent?"

[kavamamakava]

I'm not a man, but here's how my husband and I came to our decision. I was absolutely against it. I didn't tell him that because I didn't see the point in opening the discussion in a confrontational way. He is intact. He grew up feeling weird about it and thinking he was gross. Poor guy :( So when I brought up the question, he said he would like to have it done to his sons. I just let him watch the videos and asked him what concerns he had and tried to find information that addressed those concerns. He was easy to convince. To him, it came down to: If they are born with it, why does it need to be removed?

Most importantly, you MUST learn how to properly care for an intact penis. The majority of US males who encounter problems with their penis/foreskin may have had trauma to that area by well intentioned but ill informed care givers when they were young. And then, to compound this problem, they seek help from our doctors who don't know a whole lot about treating a foreskin. Basically, you DON'T care for it. The foreskin is shut and you don't need to fiddle with it. There is some great information in the archives at mothering.com if you do a search on "care of the intact penis"

[sammyrose]

And now we are back to the same 'ol ..
"I respect YOUR choice to leave your childrens' bodies be....and you should respect MY choice to have healthy bits cut off without their consent?"


I accept that you do not respect my choice or my decision process or anything else about me or my decisions in life. How is that?

[kavamamakava]

Oops. I posted a blank. I meant to reply to the post that mentioned how the circumcised penis draws moisture OUT of the vagina.
You know, after the birth of my first child, I was scared that having sex would hurt. Everyone warned me that I was going to need lube as I would be extremely dry. I had a crazy tear that needed hospital repair and there was just a lot of trauma to that area. So I put it off for weeks.
Finally, we had a special evening to ourselves and he made me feel very safe and comfortable and then I realized WE FORGOT LUBE. Everyone told me I was going to be really dry and we wouldn't be able to have sex without lube - especially since I was breastfeeding. But he convinced me to try anyway. And it was fine. I've always wondered why. Am I a freak to not be dry after having a baby? But now I realized it's because my partner has an intact penis. Our bodies work together just fine - as nature intended. No need for some synthetic plastic smelling KY to make our "moment" work.

Thanks for the info :) I have finally solved a mystery.

[~Nikki~]

I didn't have a chance to real all the responses, so I apologize if any of this is a repeat. My husband has very strong views on the subject, and asked me to post for him.

He was not circ'd as an infant, but ended up with an infection of some sort when he was a toddler. At that point, his mother regretted NOT circ'ing him (as it was the norm at the time), but the infection cleared up, and in 27 years he hasn't had another problem.

When we found out I was pregnant, we briefly discussed what would happen when we had a boy. I was against circ'ing but wanted to hear his opinion. He flat out said "No way, never, I would never do that."

I brought up all the arguments I had seen on message boards I visit. You know, being different from other boys at school, being tormented in the locker room, the cleanliness issue. He had a valid reponse to each and every one. First, circumsizing is becoming more and more obsolite in our culture. In fact, in many Canadian hospitals, doctors are refusing to do circumcisions now. As for the locker room argument, he told me that he never had anyone comment on his "junk" at school...and he knows that had anyone mentioned someone's naughty bits in a positive OR negative way, they likely would have gotten beaten up by one of the other guys. About the cleanliness issue, he doesn't smell, have man ooze, or anything down there. He says that as long as you wash yourself (which you should do every day regardless of what type of part you have) then you most likely won't encounter problems.

I had a friend who was circ'd when he was 18, due to problems with his foreskin not pulling back, which made sex painful for him. I brought this up, and asked what he though about circumcisions as a precautionary measure, and he thought that was ridiculous. He told me that often, your appendix or tonsils will get infected, and will have to be removed, but you don't see them performing those surgeries on newborns as a precautionary measure. It's silly to "fix" something that isn't broken yet.

[number572]

I do not consider that when a parent makes this type of decision for thier son for religious reasons it is treating the child as property. I respect that others differ.


But this is exactly what I don't get. Does this mean that you intend on not allowing him to choose which religion he feels he needs to follow either? To me, that IS trying to pretend that the child is yours to mould - when the truth is that each person is their own to discover, parents are there to guide them into their own being, whether they follow the same paths or not. Maybe we just view things very diffently all around.

[Thursday Girl]

As far as the staement that i have heard here, and in RL
"he's the man so I am going to let him decide."

OK would you let your DH abuse your son because he's your son?
Would you lte youe DW slice your DD becasue they are bith females?

I asked my husband what he would do if he came home and I was abusing our DD or what if i cut her pinky off. He said he would have me arrested. So i said to him "then why would you cut off a piece of your son?"

He is presently in the Circ camp, but we aren't dealing with that issue until we are getting ready tio have a son. And whent hat happens I will be on mothering getting all sorts of information, and i will try to convince him. But even if i don't convince him, My son will still be left intact. They way he was made.

[Calm]

What is interesting is that my mother, who had four boys, circ'ed the first, and then decided to let the others decide when they grew up which they prefered. All three site having more sensitivity in the area than the oldest man. And, none decided to have the snip, ever, and thank my mother for leaving things as nature made them. Not to mention that they really don't give a rats. So, in one family of many boys and different decisions, it all points to the same thing - leave it alone, it ain't that big a flamin' deal.

Edited to add -
I just spoke to my hubby about this, as he was sliced as a babe. It was always weird for me, as this is more rare in Australia, and he is American. But we hadn't really talked about it, so this thread had me asking about it. I asked him what he thought of circ, and he said, "I wouldn't circ a girl, why would I circ a boy? The only thing I am resentful of is that I had this mutilation done to me without consent. My mother is catholic, but I am not, she assumed I would be and that I would want this - and that was rude of her, to say the least. I can't get that piece of me back, ever. i can't bring back lost sensation from having this exposed part rubbed against my pants my whole life. It's just plain intrusive."

His words. Makes me ache for him.

[boingo82]

... I can't get that piece of me back, ever. i can't bring back lost sensation from having this exposed part rubbed against my pants my whole life. It's just plain intrusive.

OT, but has your husband ever considered restoring?
http://www.norm-uk.org/foreskin_restoration.html for more info..
Some men aren't interested in trying but those who have report increased sensitivity and a positive feeling of being covered again.
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ForeskinRestoration/messages
There is a support group for men who are restoring non-surgically.
I don't know if it's something he'd be interested in, but he might like to know it exists.

[Calm]

Thanks Emily, I will tell him about it.

[Seeking Refuge]

But this is exactly what I don't get. Does this mean that you intend on not allowing him to choose which religion he feels he needs to follow either?

The sad thing is that most parents feel this is their right because they bring the child into the world. I think it stems from people having children because they want to live on through them and they feel the need to try to force their children to be carbon copy images of themselves.

[Calm]

Love your sig mom2radata! Poor thing, I remember it well, and I wouldn't take you on in that state that's for sure! LOL!

[ucdaddytomany]

Well here is my two cents worth again. I am an experienced circ male. I was snipped without my consent cause at the time everybody did it. It was the in thing to do. I have read in a couple of posts saying the reason for circ was bad smell and infections. An old friend of mine has not been circ and he has never had the smell. We had discussed with so many people about the option witht he end result being hygene. If your penis smells, wash it. Very simple to do.... Pull back the forskin and wash it all out. The same goes for the women. If your netherregions smell they need to be washed. As long as proper hygene is followed, the smell just won't be there. Proven fact. I do know alot of guys just do not know this information. Never been told about it. I have even heard of people that called in to the sunday night sex show and asked susan the very same thing. A couple of guys on the show did not know that the foreskin could be pulled back. Pull it back and wash it out.

[earthpapi]

Well all I have to say is that I am Circ and my son is not. I am not upset that I am because I am lucky that everything is working. But I truely do not believe it is my choice to cut a piece of my son away. If he wants it done later then HE WANTS it done. That is it. Just remember this -CHILDREN ARE PEOPLE TOO. :thumb

[ucdaddytomany]

Well all I have to say is that I am Circ and my son is not. I am not upset that I am because I am lucky that everything is working. But I truely do not believe it is my choice to cut a piece of my son away. If he wants it done later then HE WANTS it done. That is it. Just remember this -CHILDREN ARE PEOPLE TOO. :thumb

Only way to think. Mark one for the earthpapi!

[madmansdad]

I am circ'd and my son is not. When my wife got pregnant she asked me what I thought about circ and I said that I just figured that we would. Well, after some arguing (I was mad because she was WAY better prepared to argue than I was) and hearing the facts we decided to leave him intact. I really have yet to hear one good reason to circ. As far as the argument about smell and cleanliness goes- would you snip off your nose because you get boogers? If my son decides to someday get it done then I'll foot the bill, but not before pointing out that his sexual pleasure will be diminished and that there is a chance that it will go terribly wrong (have you ever seen a skin-bridge?). I think that before your husband makes up his mind he should see some video of it being done and see if he wants to subject his baby such a brutal practice.

[FlaxSeedGruel]

dear god no. don;t do it.

[A&A]

http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html

[Brisen]

My dh is intact; afaik, all of the men in my family are intact. I will relate what my dh said when it came up before our first child was born.

He basically said the same as u2slow, he didn't realize that anybody did it for other than religious reasons, and that it was only those who were Jewish who followed the tradition. He thought it was crazy that people did it to keep everything "clean" -- he couldn't imagine that having sensitive exposed bits would be considered more sanitary. And my dh is a total germaphobe -- I think he uses more soap in one shower than I do in a month of showers. :eyesroll

And I had a similar experience to the pp who was worried about the first time after birth. With the bfing hormones (I'm tandeming) I wasn't producing very much of my own lubrication, and was quite worried. Dh made up for my lack.

[JonathanH]

I am desireeh husband, she told me to post.

I am circumcised but our son isnt. She was very against it and I really didnt care that much at first. I never remembered it and didnt think it was that much of a big deal. To her it is. She did all the research about it and showed it to me and made me watch a video of one being done and I knew I couldnt do that to my son. There is no reason for it. I change his diapers and give him a bath and he doesnt smell. It looked different at first but now I am used to it. I am glad we left him alone.