A Boyfriend from the "Wrong Side"

[Taurusmom]

My daughter is going to be 16 this spring. She and I have always been very close. She is intelligent and reasonable in all aspects of life, except in her choice of a boyfriend. Although my husband and I don't care for this guy, we know from first-hand experience that to forbid her to see him will only make matters worse.

Last year, at her request, we moved her from a school that was, shall we say, less than desirable in terms of classmates, academics, and teachers.

She's enjoying her dance and foreign language classes, and is adjusting well to the new, improved, environment. She's made new friends and her grades are good.

What could be wrong? Well, she has not forgotten her boyfriend from the old school. When she talks to him on the phone, and sees him on weekends, I feel frustrated and angry. His grades are poor, his family life is not what we teach our children. I think back on the years of nursing, the thousands of stories I used to read to her, and see what looks to me like my precious child throwing herself away.

This guy has never really done anything "wrong." He's just a loser. There, I said it. Am I over-reacting? Should I invite this boy to our house and attempt to get to know him better? We've met him, and were SO unimpressed.

Has anyone else had a similar experience? I'd love to hear from you.

[Baby Phat]

I dated a guy like this when I was that age. But it wasn't him that was the problem -- it was that I spent that much time at that age with any one young man. I should have been seeing other guys, expanding my social horizons and learning more about how relationships work. I hung out in that relationship waaaay too long. He really wanted the relationship to continue, and I was overly eager to avoid conflict and to please. I wish I had had more self-confidence and been more aware of my own feelings and wishes.

In light of that, I'd be less concerned about the qualities of the person she's with than about how she feels about herself, her friendships and other interests, this relationship and relationships in general.

[Erin Pavlina]

I used to date a guy from the "wrong side of the tracks" when I was in high school. My parents hated him with a passion. They didn't know it, but he was abusing me (verbally, physically, and sexually). I was too naive to understand what was happening.

Anyway, that's a whole different story. My point in bringing it up is that the more my family tried to get me away from him the more I wanted him. So I'll just confirm your suspicion that if you forbid her from seeing him you'll lose your daughter.

The only thing I can think of in hindsight that might have helped was if my parents had simply embraced him but quietly and through example showed he didn't belong. I didn't break up with him, even though I wanted to, because then my parents would have "been right." Stupid, I know. But I was 16.

Another thing that almost worked was when my mom found some nice young guys to "happen" to come by occasionally. It gave me a chance to see what I was missing. They treated me well and that's part of what eventually got me away from this bad guy.

So, in summary, see if you can get her to hang around (just as friends) with some nice boys.

I know you don't want to embrace the bad one, but definitely don't forbid or push. At that age (16) it's about trusting their judgment and respecting their right to make decisions.

You are in a tough position. I know exactly what you're going through.

[Taurusmom]

Thanks, Musemama and Erin,

I've read both of your messages several times, and done some more thinking. You make good points.

I also had such a boyfriend, and I think that's what worries me. In time it ended, but it took so much time.

My mom always advised me to date more than one boy, but I found that to be a source of hurt feelings, anger, jealousy, etc. It just didn't work for me or the boys involved. Our conservative community seems to stand strongly behind the date-one-person-at-a-time philosophy, as well. What I'm getting at is that my daughter will not date anyone else, and to attempt to get her to do so would be futile at best. No, not until this guy is history, but will that ever happen?

Perhaps there will be a time when I feel comfortable enough to attempt to casually invite this boy over for dinner, or at least plan a picnic in a neutral location so we can sort of "visit." It could be that he's really a nice guy. I'm just distressed by the fact that he's not the person I want her to be with.

[treehuginhippie]

I completely agree that the way your daughter feels about herself is the most important thing. Unless he is abusive towards her, I think you should not push for her to stop seeing him. I dated a guy that was also not what my mother wanted. We dated seriously for most of high school. He made bad grades, had a very different family situation, had no use for church/religion/God, partied a lot with an older crowd, and was an alcoholic at the age of thirteen. What my mother didn't see was that he made bad grades because he was working 40 hours a week, he did not chose his family situation, and he was trying very hard to get away from the party scene. He was anti-religion because of prior experiences. I was raised Southern-baptist. (Imagine every stereotype for a southern baptist and my family fit them.) By the time we graduated, he was more like a person ten years older. He had made his mistakes and realized that what everyone else was doing was stupid. The few times they had met him, he had been unable to talk to them or fit in. However, he was a differnt person around me. He was sweet, funny, intelligent, .... We got married at 18 (me) and 19 (him). My family was completely against it. However, 4 years later, they all love him. He has become the favorite male in the family. So, while I'm sure some people reading this will think I'm too young to be able to have anything to say about parenting, I thought you might want to hear from someone with a different perspective. I don't know anything about your daughters boyfriend, but I think you should let her make her own decison regarding him. After all, didn't you raise her to be an intelligent person capable of making decisions?

[Taurusmom]

Thanks for your post, treehuginhippie. Everything you said sounds quite reasonable. I appreciated your point of view. Yes, I did try to raise my daughter to be an intelligent person capable of making her own decisions. Now I have to stand back and hope that she does just that.
I do not think that you are too young to know anything about parenting, not by any means. Being young, you can see the situation from a better angle than I can.
I just want my daughter to benefit from some of my mistakes, instead of making some of the same ones, that's all.

[elnachick]

You've gotten excellent replies here! I wanted to put in my 2 cents of encouragement - it might be a great idea to give the young man a chance. It sounds like you have a good relationship with your daughter, and I would guess that you could tell her in all honesty that you are not thrilled with the situation but are willing to try to be open and get to know him, etc. Over time you may discover together that he is not someone she wants to be with but she needs the space and support to arrive at that decision herself. You may also discover that there's a very nice young man stuck in a less than ideal situation, who will grow into a wonderful person. My partner got poor grades in hs, did more than his share of drugs and alcohol, really struggled to define himself, and perhaps was not a parents' dream (although his family would be generalized as "good"). Now in graduate school and student teaching at a local alternative hs, an excellent writer, thoughtful and gentle person, a dedicated activist, and a truly good person, he is my parents' dream - and mine. I only wish I could have helped him in his struggles back in the day. Your daughter has loving parents who could help her find a better school situation - he may very well be stuck there. I think giving him a chance but in a very open and honest way with your daughter may be a valuable step. I'm a few years from being a parent myself, so I don't mean to be presumptuous with my suggestions, I'm just coming from a perspective of seeing what a wonderful person someone presumed to be the "bad boy" can turn out to be.
peace, jen

[Taurusmom]

Thanks, Jen

I agree that I have gotten some wonderful and thoughtful replies to this post. I am paying close attention to all of them.

I am here at home now while the rest of my family is occupied with social activities. This rare time alone allows me to read, think and write. I always come out of a day like this refreshed and relieved.

Thank you, everyone, for your support.

[Greaseball]

He could be a very nice person...just "different." Not being good at school doesn't imply there's something wrong with you.

[Mayasmama98]

Man, I may be 27 but I vividly remember my mom disapproving of my boyfriends in high school...and how much I just hated it. I would have to sneak around to see this one particular guy I dated, and if it weren't for her disapproving and me rebelling....it probably wouldn't have lasted so long. Your pov sounds a lot like hers, no real reason to dislike him, you don't really know him, I think it's opposite of a lot of the beliefs I've read on this board...to be so judgemental of someone simply for how they look, their family, etc. I would absolutely get to know this guy before forbidding her to see him or passing harsh judgment...if you have no concrete reason to forbid her to see him....I probably wouldn't make things worse by making a big deal out of it.

I remember at 16 wanting nothing more than just for my parents to trust me and the decisions I made. Yes, they weren't always smart, but they were my mistakes to make and learn from, not theirs.

I want nothing but happiness for my daughter, as I am sure you want the same. The way I see it, someday she'll be out of my house and out on her own, doing whatever she pleases and hopefully making good choices....

Good luck to you, sorry if I sounded harsh, I just have a good memory of all the pain I went through then!!!

Love,
Christi

[Taurusmom]

Thanks, greaseball and maya's mom. This thread may be over, but after reading your posts, I wanted to add a few more words from my point of view. No, there's nothing wrong with someone who doesn't do well in school. I can say that from a position of experience. I am a teacher who works with many students who "don't do well." I help them on a daily basis.

I'm also not making a big deal about this guy - much to the contrary. In spite of what friends and relatives have said, I have not forbidden her from seeing him. I have tried to get to know him, but I only get a grunt and a head jerk from him as he averts his eyes and mumbles. It's hard to become fond of a person when that's all you have to go on.

His family is not his fault, but I don't desire to have my daughter become a part of it.

Please don't accuse me of being unreasonable. I am quite open-minded and accepting. I have seen more of this guy than I'm disclosing here. If I can prevent her from making some serious mistakes, I'm going to try. Whether I agree with what everyone else posts here or not isn't the issue.

taurusmom

[sarahwebb]

Good luck Taurusmom,

I can really empathize with the struggle you're going through. As I prepare for motherhood, I reflect on my dating experience and wonder how I will respect my child's choices and give them room to make their own decisions when I know that I will want so much to protect them both from the mistakes that I made and the mistakes that I fear they will make.

I can say with virtual certainty that I stayed in a relationship for three years that was very, very unhealthy for me and took me over ten years to get mostly over because I was so busy defending my choices and my boyfriend from my family's dissaproval that I didn't have the perspective to see all the reasons breaking up with him would have been best for me. Several years ago, I had an opportunity to share that experience with a young woman friend who was engaged to a young man that her family was very opposed to. I am so grateful that my experience helped her to step back from her family's criticism and decide whether or not she wanted to be with this guy. Ultimately, she decided to break up with him and is very glad.

One of the most transformational moments in my teenaged years was when a friend's mother thought I wanted to do something that she didn't approve of. She gave me a choice, and in that moment, I knew that she felt that there was a right choice and a wrong choice, and I also knew that she was giving me an honest choice. No matter which choice I made, I felt without a shadow of a doubt that she would continue to love and respect me. I will never know how she found the courage to offer that choice, but I hope that when the time comes with my children I will have the courage to do the same thing. I can't tell you how much her unconditional love and respect meant both in that moment and now, almost twenty years later. She remains one of the most important people in my life.

Love,
Sarah

[Meka1991]

I think if we as parents are doing the responsible thing and raising our children to be thoughtful and aware then that is where we have to leave it. If you empower your children with knowledge, reasoning, and understanding when do we allow them to use this knowledge. I understand you want the best for your daughter, but your idea of the best may not be her idea of the best. Also, from experience (and I am 28), if you forbid it, you will make him all the more tantalizing. 16 is a hard age. Give your daughter some credit.

OT - I also find it ironic that the same people who spout how everyone is equal and we need to treat everyone with respect can even use the term "Wrong side of the Track".

This really hits a nerve with me for several reasons :angry. I am one of those "wrong side of the track" people. Do you know that I and the majority of the young people at my high school did the best they could with the materials they had? You probably wouldn't have wanted your daughter to hang out with me and my friends. Bad influence, right. Even though none of us ever did drugs or drove intoxicated. We appreciated the fact that our parents were doing the best they could for us. We also all worked (I worked 32 hours a week from the week I turned 16) while still going to school everyday. We all continue to work very hard at whatever task we take on from raising our children to being respectable individuals and being active in our old (and sometimes new) neighborhoods. I guess I don't need to tell you that today I make over $60,000 a year and no my children are not warehoused at daycares all day. Funny how growing up on the "wrong side of tracks" makes you realize how hard you have to work. It also makes a person realize how the rest of society looks down their nose at you.

Good Grades are not an indication of a good or bad person. I guess you don't realize that many subjects are biased or how many children from the "wrong side of the tracks" have learning disabilities that are NEVER discovered. They are just made to feel stupid at schools with too many kids and not enough teachers.
I am glad that you were able to get your daughter in a better school for whatever reason, BUT you know everyone does not have the choices that you have.

Have you ever noticed that usually the "wrong side of the track" is where minorities/poor people reside?
FWIW - Have you ever thought that this young man knows that you don't like him? I can always tell when people don't like me. Also, we all know we can't pick our families (or family members).

It reminds me of how everyone was sure that Civil rights was great, as long as their daughters or sons did not bring a POC home. Whatever.

Meka

P.S. The you is plural and does not target anyone in particular.

[Taurusmom]

Let me see... I wrote because my daughter was suddenly living her life for a boy I disapproved of. I was asking for support, not criticism.

I get the feeling now that I have to defend myself, my choice of words, my desires for a decent life for my child.

Don't give me the line about minorities. I am one. I've worked my ass off all of my life. As a matter of fact, I've often been told that I work too hard. I do. I've given up just about everything for my family. My kids have it too easy, I'll be the first to admit that. I just wanted them to have it better than I had it.

I give people the benefit of the doubt. My past experiences have taught me to fear fire, that's all.

Taurusmom

[jasnjakesmama]

Brava Meka Brava :thumb
I agree totally. The "wrong side" thing really rubbed me the worng way. So judgmental. You said it better than I ever could have.

[Meka1991]

Originally posted by Taurusmom

Don't give me the line about minorities. I am one. I've worked my ass off all of my life. As a matter of fact, I've often been told that I work too hard. I do. I've given up just about everything for my family. My kids have it too easy, I'll be the first to admit that. I just wanted them to have it better than I had it.

I give people the benefit of the doubt. My past experiences have taught me to fear fire, that's all.

Taurusmom

I am not asking you to defend anything, and who does not want a better life for their children. If you think your children have it too easy, then you are the only one that can do something about it. Anyway, you know your daughter, and you have said yourself that if you forbid it, that would be a mistake.

P.S. the comment about being a minority... it seems you have forgotten a few things (or maybe you NEVER HAD TO REALIZE THEM).

Peace

Meka

[Vigggg]

i'm not direct this at any one prson, i just want to comment onsome issues raised here.

i have dated guys from all sides of the tracks and in my experience the ones that treated me the worst were the ones who had everything spoon-fed to them. the "right" kind of family, the good grades, the good school, the "right" everything. ya know why? because they were "entitled" to have what they wanted when they wanted. i think it is great that some kids (not pointing fingers) can see beyond their limited environment and see that everyone deserves a chance.

yeah, i dated some jerks from the "worng side" too, but i had to find that out.

location, family life, affluency, that is not what is important. what is important is how that one specific person is as a person. there are PLENTY of upper-class, educated, articulate abusers out there. thry may just fit better into what society deems acceptable. they may convince others that they are "good" people. they may just hide it better.

[Cynthia Mosher]

Excuse me mamas. This discussion seems a bit on the heavy side. I think the points brought up can be discussed in a much better way without the harsh criticism.

We know very little about this situation or the person so let's try to contribute to the thread in way that everyone can appreciate, with respectful and compassionate discussion.

Considering how long ago this thread was started and that it has just recently been revived I'm surprised no one asked Taurusmom how things are now or if she's managed to get to know the young man better.

Let's try to remember that she posted asking for advice and support. If you have something critical to say and know that what you're about to post is harsh, well...all the more reason to find a gentle way to say it. :)

~Cynthia

[abimommy]

We ahd this problem with my little sister. She really has a thing for dating total losers.

Now by loser I am saying that she dated a lot of people who were in the drug crowd.

I really think this is a self esteem issue. I had some self esteem issues for a bit and I had a tendancy to date losers during this ( here by loser I mean guys who treated me like crap)

Maybe this could be something you could work out with her.

I really think that there is no class distinction with losers as I know a guy with tons of cash who is a real creep and people with no cash who are wonderful and loving.

[Marg of Arabia]

So, how are things going???? Taurus mom??

:co:)

[Taurusmom]

Thanks, Marg, for asking.

She is still friends with the boy we've been talking about, but they don't see each other or even talk on the phone much.

She is making new friends at her new school. Things are better now.

I agree with you on the self-esteem issue. It's an important one.

Aloha,

Taurusmom

[Marg of Arabia]

I am very happy to hear about things getting better. Hey, you know we are all going to go through these experiences. I really appreciate people like you who open up and share so the rest of us can have an idea of what we could be in for!!!


Thanks, marg

[dee1999]

I'm new to this board, but just wanted to comment on daughters dating someone we don't approve of. My daughter will be 25 in August. She was a really easy teen, good grades, no grief. She didn't date much, mostly just proms and group dates with lots of kids. Then in her second year of college she met someone who came into the little pie shop where she worked. They began dating and she was smitten. I met him after they'd been seeing each other for three weeks. Needless to say, I was disappointed in a young man of mediocre intellect, background and looks. Now I know this sounds so horrible and bigoted, but I am being honest. Many of us hope for what we think is the perfect "match" for our one-of-a-kind fabulous daughters, and I am no exception. My daughter is a very bright, independent, hardworking, charismatic person whom I thought would pick someone equally talented. She is also very beautiful (inside and out). I judged this young man 1) on his looks 2) the fact that he had dropped out of college 3) his broken home 4) his lack of eye contact with me. I stupidly tried to point out to my daughter his faults and convince her to stop dating him. Up until this point we had been very, very close. She began pulling away from me and arguements insued. This began a 2 year stint of very strained relationships and misery for both of us, but mostly me. She lived at home until last year, when at 23 she moved out and into an apartment with him. I finally accepted him (as I had no other choice or to lose my daughter) about 18 months ago. He now has eye contact with me, since I no longer give off the rejection vibe. Our daughter has her college degree (in spite of the fact that he dropped out), has a fabulous job (80,000 a year) and just bought her first home (and no, he is not on the deed). He pays his share of "rent". But the point is, they will date who they choose and if we push them, it only pushes them INTO the relationship. I still hope that someday she will choose someone else, but have resigned myself to the fact that it may never happen. I know this man much better now and he is a good person, but I had hoped she'd pick someone more ambitious. (He manages a video game store.) But what I think doesn't matter. It is her life and she chooses her own happiness and she seems to have found it.

So my advice is: Speak at lenght to your very young daughters about what they think is important in choosing a boyfriend, because all boyfriends are potential life-mates, and then let her choose. DO NOT voice your objections..... she will choose for her own reasons....not ours. It's hard, but that's how it is.

[barbara]

I have learned that first impressions are not always right!!

My daughter married the man I thought was such a loser.....bad family, no ambition, hung out with a bad crowd, you name it. They grew up together and he was always crazy about her. She told him there was no chance so he dated around and that just made him more undesirable in my eyes. Imagine our surprise when they came to us with some serious intentions. Now imagine our surprise when we got to know him and found a very serious minded, extreamly intelligent, creative and loving young man. He is a wonderful loving husband and daddy! I couldn't have picked a better mate for my daughter if she had let me:D

I've learned to withhold judgement, and to trust my daughter's judgement of character a little better.

[mamaduck]

This thread got me to thinking about my first boyfriend when I was 16. My parents forced me to stop seeing him -- by threatening to disown me. Their reasons: 1) He was not a Christian and 2) We were "fooling around" sexually, though not having intercourse. They discovered this by searching my book bag and reading my journal. They freaked out, and made my life miserable for a long time. They humiliated me by subjecting me to family counseling with our pastor, and spilling the details of my behavior to this man who was also a friend. And my heart was so broken over loosing my boyfriend!

But what they didn't know (and still don't know) was that he kept an unregistered gun under the front seat of his car, that he cheated on me often, and that he stole liquor and beer regularly. He was 17, and he started drinking each day before breakfast. In retrospect, I realize how dangerous the relationship was. I still don't think my parents handled it well. I don't know what the solution should have been. There probably wasn't a good one. With some kids, maybe a parent could sit back and pray that the child eventually makes the right decision. I don't think I was one of those kids -- I was too dependent on him and too insecure to make the right choice.

My parents were controlling and authoritarian from the start. Maybe if they had not made certain to "break my will" when I was a young child, and had done more to preserve my confidence and my self-esteem, maybe I could have been trusted to make a good decision in the situation as a teenager. I still feel very sad when I think about the whole long ordeal. Even 12 years later, I don't want to discuss it with my parents. When they bring it up -- they are smug about it. As if the end results (that I am safe) prove they were right.

Taurusmom said: "I think back on the years of nursing, the thousands of stories I used to read to her, and see what looks to me like my precious child throwing herself away."

This was something that stood out to me when I first read this thread. My parents said things like this too me often, and I HATED it. I would seethe with rage (privately) over it. It felt as though they were saying that all their love, affection, and hard work would end up being a waste of time if I did not make exactly the choices they dictated to me. It felt like they saw me as their "project" instead of as a person in my own right. That I "owed" them something for their efforts, and was obligated to choose relationships they approved of because of it. I am 28 years old, and only recently able to shake off their expectations when I try to make decisions about what is right and good for myself.

On the other hand, being a mother now, I can understand wanting only the best is for my kids, and feeling like I know what the best thing is. So, I suppose there is a thin line to walk between protecting our kids and owning our kids. It is so hard!

[Corriander]

I don't know if this has anything to do with this thread or not. I just read in the NY Times about a study done where it was shown that high self esteem is highly associated with early sexual activity in boys, but low self esteem is highly associated with early sexual activity in girls. High self esteem in girls was associated with delayed sexual activity until the late teens. It seems obvious - in a statistically way - that the high self esteem boys are having sex with the low self esteem girls. What an awful combination!

[barbara]

Mamaduck,
Parenting is a difficult thing and often feels like walking a thin line. You will do well because you see it that way. It seems like there is always a problem when parents (or anyone for that matter) becomes controlling. Your memories of how you felt will help you to avoid making the same mistakes with your children. It is always hard to trust young people to make decissions and take the chance of them making mistakes. Sometimes it means we as parents have to let go of the hopes and dreams WE have for their future and let them choose their own path. Letting go is never easy.
Peace and grace,

[Dan Frank]

Corriander...

Assuming what you say is true, it seems, to me, the answer is obvious.

Girls in their late teens should be having sex with early/mid teen boys!

But nooooo, girls should get guys older than them either (depending on the era the person grew up in) because women are of course way more mature than guys, therefore such an age-skewing makes them on par (ugh!), or because women need a good, strong, responsible man around (even bigger ugh!!)

Why o why is our culture so wacked out sexually????

[dee1999]

Mamaduck.... you are so together for a young woman ( I am 49, so 28 seems young to me... I have a 24 y/o daughter). I agree with Barbara, in that your awareness of what your parents did to cause you pain (inadvertantly, with perhaps the best of intentions) can be the impetus for you to find another way to raise your children without exerting such control over them.

Another reason why they may be "smug", as you put it, when responding about how they "handled" your situtation with the "bad" boyfriend may be because they are still justifying their controlling behavior. Of course they must have known how crushing it was to you, and that may have been painful to them, so to staunch their own guilt, they must rationalize the correctness of their controlling you by saying, "and look how we saved you and you turned out so well", etc. etc. Does that make sense? I am certainly not excusing what they did, nor discounting the harm it caused you, because it certainly was harmful, as you've expressed. But as parents, I think we rationalize our errors, and convince ourselves we were "only doing what was right."

Such a tough job, parenting is. You will do well because of the insight brought about by your pain. Take care.

dee

[mamaduck]

I am still frightened of the teenage years! How do you compensate for YOUR OWN mistakes? Or THEIR immaturity?

Yes, my parents hurt me. But what if they hadn't stepped in? What if I had run off with this guy? What if he had abused me? What were they supposed to do?

One thing though -- I think we'll have some objective house rules, rather than just me and dh trying to throw our weight around when we get scared. I think back, and so much would have been resolved (and I would have been safer all around) if my parents had a house rule that prevented me from riding in cars with teenage drivers. Man, I wish we had that rule! It would have been clear cut, objective, not entangled with power and control issues . Just common sense!! No doubt I'd have hated it, but it would not have been painful, you know?

[dee1999]

Mamaduck, you said: I am still frightened of the teenage years! How do you compensate for YOUR OWN mistakes? Or THEIR immaturity?

My kids are grown and we had relatively painless teen years. One thing I did was to always talk to them about expectations and rules long before the desired activity was to take place...years. This way they were already conditioned and accepting of the expectations/rules before the activity governed by the rule ever came about. For example: At age 14 or so, about two years before our daughter could drive we began the conversations, "You will not be allowed to carry passengers or ride with teenage drivers once you/your friends get drivers licenses because it is important for the new driver to concentrate and passengers are a dangerous distraction." The rule in our house was 3 months. Now it was not to avoid riding with teenage boys, but rather to allow her to hone her driving skills before taking on passengers. She knew the rule long before she had her license, or even the desire to take on passengers, so there was no arguement when she finally got her license. Just one example of how discussion before the desire becomes known can help. One just must always be thinking ahead for this to work.

You also said: Yes, my parents hurt me. But what if they hadn't stepped in? What if I had run off with this guy? What if he had abused me? What were they supposed to do?

Yes, they did the right thing stepping in. Now perhaps you will know what to do and what not to do when the time comes for you to step in with your child. Even so, there will probably be some mistake you make, being that we all make mistakes. The difference is that you have developed a sensitivity to the pain your parents inflicted and you may act differently because of that. But who's to say that this child won't feel that is wrong? One never knows, we just do the best we can and talk, talk, talk with our children so they understand the reasons why we do what we do.... out of love and concern.

You say: One thing though -- I think we'll have some objective house rules, rather than just me and dh trying to throw our weight around when we get scared. I think back, and so much would have been resolved (and I would have been safer all around) if my parents had a house rule that prevented me from riding in cars with teenage drivers. Man, I wish we had that rule! It would have been clear cut, objective, not entangled with power and control issues . Just common sense!! No doubt I'd have hated it, but it would not have been painful, you know?

It sounds like you are on the right path (IMHO), because you are giving it thought now, as opposed to when the act occurs. As I said earlier, setting up rules before your child is in the heat of the activity or stage, helped us immensely. I began talking about what teenage issues would/wouldn't be acceptable behavior long before the kids were teens...while they could still say... "yes, I would never do that" (lol), then continued conversations kept the values dialogue going. Make sense?

Hang in there. Parenting is a tough job, but the love and rewards are immeasurable!

dee :)

[sarahwebb]

What a shift in this thread--interesting stuff gals, but first--

Taurusmom, how are you and your daughter doing?

Mamaduck, I can so relate to what you're saying and some of your experience. There were a lot of excellent reasons for me not to date my first serious boyfriend, but I couldn't see them because I was too busy defending him and myself from the criticisms of my scared, controlling mother. I think there've been some great suggestions here about setting up rules in advance and not reacting in the heat of the moment.

And something I've never forgotten, when I first began as a Unitarian Universalist youth advisor, I asked one of the youth I was traveling with what he respected most in the adults in his life. He didn't hesistate in saying, "the ability to admit a mistake or apologize." All parents will make mistakes; it's what we do next that really counts.

With love,
Sarah

[mamaduck]

First, yes, Taurusmom? How is it going? Not meaning to hyjack your thread entirely, and I'm interested in your input!

I recently read some advice about raising teans that suggested setting up "impersonal systems" for dealing with problems. It was in an article in Welcome Home this month, if anyone else reads that? Anyway, it was written by Susan Hennies (don't want to plagarize.) Her example was about her daughter wanting music lessons but not wanting to practice, so she started paying her by the minute to practice, but then expecting her to pay for her own lessons. Not the same thing exactly, but you get the idea. She didn't say "If you don't practice, I'm not paying for these lessons anymore!" She put control in her daughter's hands, but created a realistic situation with impersonal boundries.

It got me to thinking about what you (Dee) and I were saying about clear cut rules -- I think it is the same concept. Teenage ego is so fragile sometimes. It really isn't fair to make up the rules as you go along, as a reaction to bad behavior, because she/he will take them personally. I like this idea of having impersonal ways to approach things so you can really show them that "It isn't you personally who can't be trusted, it is just they way things are right now."

I guess I already do it as much as possible with my five year old. I don't say "Go wash your hands because you are a filthy slob." I say "Go wash your hands because we wash our hands before meals." Or "Lets have a family rule about this or that...." instead of "You rude little thing! Stop doing that!" (Well, sometimes when I'm not at my best these sort of things spill out! But ideally.....you know!)

I can only imagine that you have to be even more sensitive with teens. The more I think about it though, it is the same sort of sensitivity we use with our peers. Parents will sometimes say terrible things to their kids that they would never say to a peer! I suppose it is a matter of respect.

I'm really rambling. Sorry! Thanks for the reassurance Dee! Maybe it will be fun. My boys are pretty awesome, after all. I'm not biased, or anything. ;)

[dee1999]

Mamaduck..... you hit the key word.....respect. How can our children respect us, if we don't respect them? To me, that means explaining "why" we must do things a certain way....."why" we have certain rules, etc. And being willing to change the rule if it's outdated or not working, too.

[Taurusmom]

I've been away from this thread for a while, and just found the time to get caught up. Everyone's comments are enlightening. I'm going to read them all again when I have more time. Thank you all.

I would like to stand up for the safe teen drivers who have studied the driver's manual, attended the classroom and on-the-road driving instruction classes, and practice what they have learned.

Thank you all.