I'll be the first!! [Archive] - MotheringDotCommunity Forums

IdentityCrisisMama

10-12-2004, 08:17 AM

What's this all about? So many MDCers in Germany, France and England that we get our own little spot? Cool!

I'm from the US and live in Heidelberg, Germany. DH is working for the US Dod (department of defense) school system. How are the rest of you here?

I'm enjoying this experience but I'm having a difficult time learning German to the point where I'm relaxed and comfortable communicating intimately. I'm lost a good 20% of the time and completely mentally exhausted after only a short while.

Other than the language, things are going very well for us. I fit with the culture in our area very well and have met lots of friends. Actually, if I spoke German this would be the best social arrangement for me because the community of parents and adults that I have had contact with has been amazing!

We did have a MDC get together here in Heidelberg! Maybe we should do it again sometime.

I'm surprised to hear that spanking is illegal in Munich. Is this all over Germany? Do you have any links for that info?

I would imagine that the rights for BFing are quite good here because I doubt anyone thinks they can use the whole 'indecent exposure' thing that some people from the US get so stuck on. I did have some problems BFing here as soon as I went beyond the 'norm', which is under a year in Heidelberg. But, no one tried any 'legal' stuff ~ they were just shocked, lol!

I’m struggling a touch because I decided not to enroll DC in pre-k and that's out of the norm for my area. I think some people think this is a little strange but they are nice about it.

Sometimes, being a 'foreigner' is really an advantage!

Plaid Leopard

10-12-2004, 08:44 AM

Hello -

I am American, DH is French and we have been living in Germany for the past 2 1/2 years. We were in Leipzig in the east but will soon be moving to Saarbrucken, right on the French border.

I don't speak much German yet, I'm hoping to get my act together once we get settled in Saarbrucken.

We have 3 children ages 6, 4 and 9 months. I've never had any problems with people commenting about EBF, and I was able to have a homebirth, and it's a lot easier to find organic foods, but what has been difficult for us is the fact that homeschooling is illegal. Everyone thinks we are crazy for not sending our children to kindergarten or school, and obviously there is no support, and no homeschooing groups or activities.

I am glad that we decided to leave the US, even though Germany was not our first (or even 2nd, 3rd or 4th) choice of places we wanted to live. I really feel like i is a better place to raise children.

Gotta go - hungry kids calling.

Elphaba

10-12-2004, 08:54 AM

Hello! We are military and living in Baumholder until 2007. I'm a bit addled right now, so that's all I'm going to post.

IdentityCrisisMama

10-12-2004, 08:54 AM

Hey, Rachel

How are you? Will you be back soon? We'd love to see you and Aya would LOVE to see Axcel (how is his name spelled?). She calls him her boyfriend and is really into him ~ still.

Here's the link to the other thread

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=172396&page=3&pp=20

(with pics...you got them right, Rachel?)

IdentityCrisisMama

10-12-2004, 08:56 AM

Cross post, Elph...

Hi!

Elphaba

10-12-2004, 08:59 AM

ICM, did you check out the birthday photos yet? Aya was so cute!
When Rachel comes back, I say we converge on her house.

velochic

10-12-2004, 10:40 AM

Yep, spanking is illegal here:

"Corporal punishment of children (spanking) is a crime in Germany that can lead to a child being taken away from parents by the local government youth authorities"

http://www.exploitz.com/data/consul/germany.html

@DebraBaker - that surprises me because of all of the German states, Bayern (where Munich is) is considered to be the most stringent of all of them. Moms wean ON THE DAY of the 6 month birthday, co-sleeping is rare, homeschooling is prohibited by LAW and children are required to go to kindergarten at like 2 or 3 whether you like it or not. Of course, we are residents, not citizens, so we have it a little easier time of it (dd will be 3 in Feb.) .

So, culturally, we're doing well here. We kind of do our own thing, and I muddle through with my German. I took 3 years of German in high school, but that was "Hoch Deutsch" and the Bavarian's accent is much harder to understand. Has anyone here been down our way? Oy, it's almost like Texas... a whole other country! ;)

We do let dd watch some TV to help her German and I'm learning too. She especially likes "Pingu" and "Pumukl". We also let her watch some of the Nordic cartoons (Hans Folgersson??). No American programs are allowed because we will go home some day and I don't want her to feel bombarded with the marketing when we go home. Her german is much better than mine. For some reason, Toggo and Kika don't seem to "market" their goods as much as they do on TV in the US. Just my opinion.

Hmmm... things I like about living here:

- Lots of organic foods to choose from
- Bioabfal
- recycling on every corner
- public transportation that is actually convenient
- homeopathic remedies are the first choice of doctors
- fresh food doesn't have preservatives
- Tchibo offers at the grocery store
- cheap Nachtzugs around Europe
- every woman is expected to nurse to 6 months
- great Turkish food

Things I DON'T like about living here:

- Spending so much time dividing my trash into all its comparments
- the smell of bioabfal
- the price of gas - can I say this here? Bush is an idiot and causing problems for everyone over the globe
- not being able to get medications prescribed to me that were prescribed in the US because they are not homepathic
- having to use the foods I buy ON the day I buy them
- being so conveniently located to go anywhere my heart wants to, but my pocketbook says, "No!" because dh is a university professor earning dollars instead of euros
- being a closet nurser because my almost 3 year old still loves "both sides" as much as she did the first time she latched on
- having a dh who is from Turkey and wants to take advantage of the plethora of Turkish restaurants we have here

:mischief

DebraBaker

10-12-2004, 11:05 AM

Hmm, My friend nursed past one year.

She used my old sling.

She and I knew about homeopathics. She did say there was more widespread use of homeopathic remedes in Germany.

They use more gentle approaches. I think it's a mentality they expect their children's behaviors are *normal* and expected instead of something wrong to be fixed (if that makes any sense)

Something peculiar she does is she makes (hand sews) little sack gowns for her toddler (he'll be two in December) and they're quilted armless blanket sacks that zip and keep the little ones warm. They are so darling and she says everyone uses them in Germany.

Can you guess how much I love this family.

Debra Baker

velochic

10-13-2004, 02:33 AM

It sounds like you do love this family. I have always found Germans and especially Bavarians to be very warm and loving people. Family is the most important thing in the world to them and it shows. Kids are well-loved here. This comment:

They use more gentle approaches. I think it's a mentality they expect their children's behaviors are *normal* and expected instead of something wrong to be fixed (if that makes any sense) sounds SPOT ON! It really does make sense and is very accurate. I hear "let kids be kids" so often here, it's wonderful.

I think your friend sounds like a wonderful mom, but like in the States, she doesn't sound very "mainstream" Bavarian. ;) My best friend here just had a baby in August and she had her mom SEND her a ring sling from the US because they simply don't have them here. She gets comments from "what is that?" to "Mein Gott, you're going to break her neck in that thing" to "You're suffocating her!" It never fails to get a comment. I was talking to my fellow LLL leader a while back about slinging and extended breastfeeding here in Munich and it seems to me that the general attitude is that it creates a dependency. Well, duh! :eyesroll I've even heard comments like, "EB causes psychological problems when the kids go through puberty" and "Get the kid off of the tits and let your husband have them back". :angry Oh, and they were HIS in the FIRST PLACE?? That one really pi$$es me off! Anyway, the only women I know of that BF past 6 months or sling (they do have Didymos slings here) are usually associated with LLL Deutschland here. I'm sure there are others, but I don't think this AP attitude is very widespread, although I know they are working on changing attitudes here. I think the main influence is that they are SO resistant to change! "This is how it's always been done." I'm going to my first LLL conference here next month, so it will be interesting to talk to women from all over Germany about this. My comments were about personal experiences and perhaps I'm not seeing the bigger picture.

Oh, and those sleeping sacks - yeah, they are everywhere. They're pretty clever actually because you don't need blankets (heat goes off for a few hours in the middle of the night to conserve energy) and the baby can't kick it off. I wish I had known about them when dd was a newborn and we were living in the States.

Hollycrand

10-13-2004, 07:37 AM

Hey, I'm impressed that Germany gets its own forum. Yippee!

Regarding the comment above on requiring your child to attend kindergarten at 2 or 3, I am very surprised. I know that every 'Land' has its own school regulations (and Bavarian schools are considered to be the best) but I would be very surprised if it's illegal not to send your child to kindergarten.
Here in Baden Wurttemberg, children are required to be in school by age 7, but even that age can be deferred by parents upon request.
I think if a parent wanted to, he/she could not send their child to kindergarten (and of course get comments from neighbours, etc. but that's just a details) without any legal recourse.

Just wanted to add in my two cents! (oops, better make that 3 cents since prices went up in October)

-Holly. mama to Catarina (20.07.04)

DebraBaker

10-13-2004, 07:56 AM

I'm glad Bayern has the best schools since our high school has a longterm exchange program with a school in Munchen (Teresium Gymnasium (spelling errors for sure)

Another thing I've noticed is German people think our food is "too sweet" I love the less sweet sweets and my friends (and the exchange teens I've met) don't eat as much food in general and especially highly sweetened foods.

My friend is a bit alternative. I gave her the sling I don't think it was a German thing. Apparently homeopathics are common. Their boys were too young for school when they came here but I am friends with her sister and I think I could find out whether preschool is mandatory (but I don't think so)

DB

tinyshoes

10-13-2004, 09:30 AM

Hi mamas...I don't live in Germany, but I had to peek at this forum (long ago, there was a significant romance with a Berliner...I couldda ended up staying in Germany, and visiting this new forum!)

Anyway (since I'm still interested in other German things) a few months ago I stumbled upon a seemingly cool German site about breastfeeding (stillen) that may be of interest:

ich stille (http://ichstille.de/index.htm)

Also, a handy-dandy online dictionary/translation device that I admire quite a lot:

German <-> English (http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/)

Alles Gute!

PumpkinSeeds

10-13-2004, 10:22 AM

Well we are living in the Netherlands. Not exactly Germany, but hey, we don't get our own forum.. hehehe

What velochic said above pretty much applies here too, more or less. Much slower pace of life, more family oriented, etc.

THe only thing is everyone smokes here.....

velochic

10-13-2004, 11:33 AM

Hey PumpkinSeeds - took our first trip to Amsterdam several weeks ago. We really enjoyed the trip and hope to go back again before we go back to the US. We saw the Anne Frank house (very moving, I had to hold back tears for the whole tour), took a canal tour, went around the city a lot and found this wonderful area with all of these antique stores. The room we stayed in was on the 3rd floor and those stairs were killers, but we loved the ambiance. One of the first things we noticed was that all of the buildings have those hooks at the top to bring up furniture, so we were always discussing the merits of the different "hook" designs. :) The only major touristy thing we didnt do is hit one of the "coffee houses". ;) But we really enjoyed Holland. You've got a great atmosphere there! :thumb

Plaid Leopard

10-13-2004, 04:55 PM

[

When Rachel comes back, I say we converge on her house.[/QUOTE]

We'd love to have you! Just have to find a house first.
We'll be back sometime in January.

PumpkinSeeds

10-14-2004, 12:37 AM

SOunds like a great trip to Amsterdam, velochic. We haven't gone yet except once in a hurried rush to get paperwork done.

I can't wait until we are able to travel a little more.

behr

10-15-2004, 04:32 AM

Hi gals :wave

I'm in beautiful Konstanz, right on the Swiss border. I am German, but have lived in several other countries.

Funny you feel Germans, in general, are warm and loving, velochic , I've always considered us to be the cool, stand-offish, nagging types.
My dd is always sooo caught off guard when we visit the States and people are sweet and nice to her.

Kindergarten is NOT mandatory, but there is a definite 'mitlaeufer mentality', so when you don't do what everybody else does you're looked upon as weird. School, however, is mandatory, and things will get tough if you won't send your kids after the age of 8, definitely.

AP is not mainstream, but there are always some who do things differently, even in conservative places like Bayern and Baden-Wuerrtemberg. I know of one woman who practices extended bf, and we sometimes ask each other (when nobody else listens) whether we STILL do 'it'.

Yea, I love the fact that people here don't view their or other's bodies as something dirty. I love the fact that my dd's can undress at the beach without catching bad looks, that I can spend an afternoon at the sauna wandering about in just my skin. So sad this is still such an issue in the States.

Homeopathics - actually the insurance agencies are planning to take all homeopathic remedies off of their plans. That would be bad. Sometimes it's good there is so much resistance to change here, since these things tend to take forever...

Schools - is a good school one that turns out kids with a maximum amount of theoretical knowledge? I have a lot of issues with schools here. I'm a product of a catholic girl's school, and that was definitely no fun experience! Things are changing, but, again, slooooooowly, adn there's little money. I am so very glad I went to University in the States. I had never known that learning could actually be fun...
Just yesterday we were talking about our high-school science classes (I majored in biology) and the complete absence of any real-life, practical stuff. My first encounter with a Bunsen burner was a memorable one: I knew what it was from the books, but had absolutely no idea how to turn it on.

Anyway, I'm glad you enjoy living in this country, well, most of you anyway (Elphaba, what does addled mean??).

ostara

10-16-2004, 06:45 AM

Hi!
I was born and raised in Switzerland and lived in the Boston aera for a decade before moving to Lake of Starnberg south of Munich with my family. For me, the American way of life felt sooooo good. I loved the friendlyness and the independant spirit of the American people. I also miss the intellectual exchange between women here (not that there aren't any smart women, no, no).
I don't feel I am main stream here (although I wouldn't be in Switzerland).
Sometimes, when I am out there in "main stream land" I think of all these wonderful "Mothering mothers" and this makes me feel good and strong to go my own way.

behr

10-16-2004, 11:05 AM

Wow, ostara, I could've written that post, the part about living in USA... and our older daughters were born just two days apart...
Hopefully we'll have another MDC meeting soon, you'll fit right in!

IdentityCrisisMama

10-16-2004, 12:08 PM

It's all about perspective, ha? I know that talking you "behr" really helped to soften the idea of going back to the US and it also helped me take off my rose colored glasses while here in Germany.

Aya needs me...

UlrikeDG

10-17-2004, 07:17 AM

I'm checking in, too. :)

I've been wanting to go back to the states almost since we got here, and now that the time is approaching (sometimes seems quickly, other times, it can't come soon enough), I'm really becoming aware of the things I'll miss.

Charlu

10-17-2004, 03:12 PM

Hi Ya'll ...a homesick Texan, I just discovered this site. I live way up here in Northern Germany..Luebeck. Can anyone give me a LLL resource for Germany? Have felt so isolated and alone APing my now 21 month old dd here. I work on being grateful and appreciating all that is...but I do so miss friendly people. So grateful for MDC.
Oh, just some introductory information, my (wonderful)husband is German, very professionally rooted here and has a wonderful 11 year old son, so I will probably be here A VERY LONG TIME. i.e. forever...?
Tschüß,
Charlotte

Hollycrand

10-18-2004, 02:47 PM

Charlu,

Is the Luebeck you live in the one near Minden? My husband's extended family comes from Rahden.
For LLL, have you tried www.lalecheliga.de on their English speaking groups indicated there?
You're the third person I've seen post on MDC who's living in Germany but from Texas.

Bis bald!
Holly

ostara

10-18-2004, 03:19 PM

Behr, how funny that our daughters have the same age. Was she born in Germany or in the States? My DD is a whirlwind of energy and imagination. How about yours?
Any idea when the next MDC meeting will take place and where? I would be interested.

Charlu

10-18-2004, 03:49 PM

Wow, more Texans!?? Any idea where they live in Germany? I am not sure where Minden is but I have never heard of it. We are 1 hour east of Hamburg (where the closest LLL meeting is). Sure sorry to have missed the MDC meeting.

behr

10-19-2004, 03:53 AM

Ostara, my dd is *very* energetic, sweet, and social, quite a piece of work actually. She was born in Athens, GA, while dd#2 was born here in Germany. We moved back in December '98.
Although I wouldn't want to miss the experiences of the last 6 :yikes: years, I have to admit that I've become a whole 'nother person. One that I'm not too happy with. But then, things have changed in the States as well, thanks to Mr. Bush and some other stuff, obviously. I don't think it is the perfect place to live, by far not, but American mentality happens to balance out my German pessimism quite well. And there are so many beautifully strong women over there that my dd's are not meeting over here at all. Well, except for the MDC gathering :love
As for myself, I've found that I can connect only with people who have lived in, and somehow gotten into, a culture foreign to them (Spring break in Cancun doesn't work :) ). This can lead to problems here in the deep south of Germany as well as in the States, both of which are areas in which many people never had an opportunity or urge to leave.

Plaid Leopard

10-19-2004, 02:07 PM

Wow, more Texans!?? Any idea where they live in Germany?
.

Hi -

I'm a Texan, from Austin :wave

Where are you from?

We were living in Leipzig in the east, but in January we will be setting up house in Saarbrucken, right on the French border.

ostara

10-20-2004, 06:56 AM

Behr, how very interesting. We too, moved to Germany in 1998.
I sympatize with the fact that you much easier connect with people who lived abroad. Other genes! You just can't share that experience with someone who never emmigrated. I feel similar.

Objectively, life has been really good for me here (except for my career). I am very happily married, have a wonderful family, financial security, live in a beautiful community. I could be very happy and I am, but my heart is still back in America. I liked the person I was in America. Here, I am OK with myself, but just OK. Interestingly, everytime I go back to the States I bring my American Self back here and it stays for a few weeks. Even friends noticed the difference in me.

So, did you live in Georgia?
Do you raise your children bilingual?

behr

10-20-2004, 09:29 AM

Ostara, I thought so, maybe we're leading parallel lives.

Yes, my dh speaks, reads etc. only in English with our dd's. The younger one, who just turned three, is starting to talk back in English. She tells me sometimes "...und daddy sagt da 'train' dazu..." Too sweet.

We lived in Florida (where my ILs are), Georgia, and a short but happy time in NYC. We visited New England this spring, that's where dh's family is from originally.

huggerwocky

10-22-2004, 07:29 PM

We are American Expats in Munich. Have a dd, almost 3 and LOVE living OUS. It's been an adjustment though, going from the very "casual" lifestyle in the US to the very rigid lifestyle here. And it's been difficult explaining extended nursing to the locals (or even other American's truth be told), but we really feel that we're in a lot better situation now, raising kids that is, than we were in the US. At least spanking and hitting your kids is illegal here. :thumb

I envy you soooo :crying

IdentityCrisisMama

10-23-2004, 08:30 AM

Check it!

Winter Holiday Party in Heidelberg!

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=2191293&posted=1#post2191293

MommaSeed

02-28-2005, 02:49 AM

Our family has been living here for almost six months and it really is starting to feel like home. We are in the Kaiserslautern area, about an hour and a half southwest of the Frankfurt airport. We have a 27 month old dd and another little one due mid April.

DH has struggled with living here because he feels like Americans get taken advantage of but seems to be coming around now that things are all in order. It doesn't help that the exchange rate is just hideous, as he is paid in American dollars.

I don't like the fact that the language is not coming to me faster, guess I had high hopes! We too are looking at sending our dd to school once she turns three...maybe she can teach me more German than what I already know.

One thing I have noticed is not much babywearing. We have been to numerous German cities, Luxemborg and Strasborg, France and just don't see many wearing their babies. Strollers seem to be huge here! Of course, I too will have to invest in one European stroller. Overall though we notice people are so friendly toward our dd! I hear if we think they are great to her here we should visit Italy. Do you think this is because the pyramid here is upside down...meaning more people pass away each day than are born. In America, we produce many, many children. I absolutely love our village and our Landlord's family; they are incredibly warm to us and I enjoy watching their faces light up when they see our dd. I just can't imagine this happening in America, there it is almost like, oh, just another kid. Can I just say that America has much to learn from Germany!!!

Hollycrand

03-11-2005, 04:24 PM

Tricia,

I've been living in Stuttgart for 6 years and find your observations on baby-wearing and attitudes towards children interesting. On baby-wearing, I don't know if I've seen more people here with strollers than in the US where I'm from (SF Bay Area) which probably has more to do with the fact that Americans use their cars more often than Europeans.
In general, I see many more strollers around in France and Germany than slings/baby carriers/wraps. Here in SW Germany it depends on the age of the baby. Many mothers swaddle newborns or tiny babies up to 3 months of age in Tragetuchers (I don't know the equivalent word in English) but put them in strollers once they get older (and heavier). I carried dd in front of me until last summer, when dh and I invested in a nice baby backpack. When I carried dd in a sling/wrap I got stopped twice by people who told me I should go to the Social Services offices (Sozialamt) to claim money so that I could afford a stroller for the baby. I couldn't believe my ears! But in general, most people make comments like, 'Isn't she too heavy?' or 'Don't you have back problems?'.
I see a few other moms and dads carrying around their older babies and toddlers with a backpack here in the little section of Stuttgart where I live.
In terms of attitudes towards children, I think it depends on who you talk to. Where I live there are many retired persons, and the reaction I get when I take dd out walking is always 50-50. 50% think she's adorable (I have to agree) and chit-chat about children, their own children, etc. 50% watch us, making sure we don't break any rules, make any loud noises or damage anything on anyone elses property. My experience in Germany in restaurants with dd hasn't been great, particularly in the evening. I find it much easier to take children to restaurants in France. I suppose it's a cultural thing.
In general, I think Germany is a child-friendly place for children older than 4 or 5 or for quiet children who don't make much noise.
Looking for a flat or house to rent or buy with children (especially in over-crowded, outrageously expensive and with an acute housing shortage) is tricky. Most neighbours/landlords don't want the 'noise' and 'mess' children bring. There's a good reason why the German birth rate is so low, and falling year after year. There are other reasons: no options for childcare, and inflexible and non-existant employment options for parents wanting to work part-time or from home.
Are you going to have your baby here in Germany?

DebraBaker

03-12-2005, 07:58 AM

We have German friends and the mom was recently sharing stories about having babies in Germany.

They only had one car and the dad drove to work so she would walk just about every day to the market. It was a good 2Km away. She would take baby in the stroller and load groceries in the stroller to schlep home.

I think more moms use strollers because they're walking greater distances and they're schlepping groceries, etc.

Tragtuchters? She sews little saques. I forget the German name for them but they're gowns with the bottom sewed together and no sleeves. Hers are sometimes quilted. She says it's common for German babies and toddlers to wear them to bed because they can't kick them off in the middle of the night.

BTW: this is a very sweet family and they seem to relate in a relaxed way with their children.

DB

Hollycrand

03-12-2005, 09:53 AM

Tragetuchers are for carrying babies around everywhere.
A Schlafsach (sp?) is a little sleeping bag without arms to wear to sleep at night. Do you mean babies don't wear these in the US to sleep?
Here in Germany there are even winter sleeping bags (warmer) and summer sleeping bags. We co-sleep, but dd wears one anyways in winter because she doesn't like our covers covering up her legs (and keeping her from moving the legs).

DebraBaker

03-12-2005, 12:30 PM

We don't have them in theh 'States. My friend has quilted ones for winter and regular cotton ones for summer.

If I had any more little ones I'd get a pattern from her. Ahhh, I'll wait for my grandchildren.

I know Germans keep their homes a bit cooler than Americans and the little ones need the extra warmth.

DB

Plaid Leopard

03-13-2005, 04:23 PM

I still wear my ds in the tragetuch sometimes. He's almost 15 months old and pretty big for his age. People often look at me weird, or make comments, but if I know that I am going to out for a while and that he will probably take a nap it is much easier for me to "tuch" him, and he still likes being carried that way. For short trips he'll go in an over-the-shoulder sling. Where we are now is very hilly so strollers aren't very practical for us. When we moved to LEipzig one of the first things I noticed was the huge number of fancy-schmancy kinderwagens, some of which cost more than the last car I owned.

Leipzig was a very child friendly city in that most buses anr trams were stroller accessible, many restaurants and cafés had a children's corner with toys and books, diaper changing stations were common in stores and restau. That said, alot of people didn't seem to like children that much, especially of they made any ind of noise.

I haven't been here in Saarbrucken long enough to know what the attitude towards children is. In general I find people to be friendlier than in Leipzig.

Mommaseed, I think Kaiserslautern is not too far away from Saarbrucken. Perhaps we can meet up someday.

ICM - ready for a visit from us? OR for a visit to SAarbrucken?