TCS Discussion Threads - Archived

[larsy]

leaflady was wondering in a recent thread about how some of us are using the word 'coercion' . Speaking for myself, I am using coercion to mean "the psychological state of enacting one idea or impulse while a conflicting impulse is still active in one's mind. " quoted from the TCS short glossary at http://www.tcs.ac/FAQ/FAQShortGlossary.html .

There are lots of implications of this definition, which are explained on that link above.

I like this way of thinking of coercion, because it applies much more accurately to the state of mind of a person- that is where coercion occurs and does its harm, by hindering reasonable thought and learning and problem solving.

limited time now, glad to discuss this further, if anyone cares to.

[Paulab52]

Hey Larsay,

did you used to post under the name Suzan?

[larsy]

Yes'm- that information is buried in my reintroduction post on about page 7 of that thread on 'pleased to meet you' part of this board. :)

[leafylady]

Thanks Larsy. I'm pondering that definition. I'm glad that you started a new thread for it.
So if I choose to bite my tongue rather than say something nasty to a relative (2 conflicting impulses in my mind)- is that self coercion?
Or when I struggle between procrastination and studio work- finally choosing one or the other while still feeling the other tug- is that self coercion?
Is there such a thing as self coercion?

[larsy]

Self-coercion- oh, yeah, is there ever such a thing! I think this is a lot of what we learn as children when forced to pick up the blocks or clean up our rooms or whatever. Eventually, kids internalize that voice, having learned to force thier selves to do things they don't want to do. Voila, self-coercion. And if feels horrible and gets in the way of us living the life we want.

And I think people lose track of the ability to know what they want, through this same process of coercion. This is a form of coercion damage, imo. The ability to identify what a person wants in any given situation is essential, to be able to find common preferences, to find good solutions, or even to make good decisions. Have you ever dithered over what to order off of a menu? What to do today, when today nothing is scheduled for you?(hah! if only...most parents don't have the luxury of a day to themselves! :) But I highly recommend taking one, whenever you can arrange it!) Felt guilty about doing something that you just want to do for yourself? I think we all know how this feels.

I recall a big breakthrough for me, in my thinking, when I realized that it is ok to want what you want, and it is ok to get what you want. That I could figure out ways to get what I want without hurting anyone else in the process, and even to help them get what they want, too. Yahoo!

In the nasty relative scenario- what would the hypothetical person really want in such a situation? First, defense of their child (if there is a child involved). A parent's first responsibility is to their child/ren and their own self. I don't think a person can go wrong, when acting in their own best interests (which would include others' best interests as well, it seems to me, it's all tied up together) and this is the best motivation for children to act from as well! A person could speak directly to their child and reassure them that they have done no wrong, that parent does not agree with the nasty relative, and how about we go get some ice cream (or whatever). If the child is not directly involved, a person might weigh their responsibility to this nasty relative versus their responsibility to their own self- would it be best to extricate one's self from an altercation in a pleasant way, perhaps helping the other person save face and beat a hasty retreat, if this person is not open to new theories? A swift 'I see we do not agree about this. Please excuse me' might be all that is needed. Or, if one is articulate in times of such stress, one could reel off a well thought out defense of their position/theories, and perhaps the nasty relative and the person can have a discussion and both learn something.

I think that the ability to identify what one really wants is essential in taking one's self seriously as well as taking others seriously- I want to finish typing this message, but if a child needs my attention, even though I might heave a mental sigh at having to leave in the middle of a thought, off I would go because my priority, what I really want, is to be available to that child when child needs my help and attention. I know I can come back to this later, whereas a child fobbed off with promises of 'later' 'just a minute' gets a clear message about mom's priorities. Let me hasten to add that if a parent is engaged in something that is not easily interruptable (though these sorts of things can be done at times when there are others available to help children) or that they are really absorbed in or would like to reach a spot that is more easily interruptable, a child is often willing to help a parent out and wait for them to do so- especially if they know that if it was something really important (by the child's lights) that parent would become available immediately.

I think that self-coercion has some things in common with self-sacrifice, which is another aspect of coercion, though they are not exactly the same thing. We do well to learn to recognize when these things are happening, though, because then we can start to find good solutions to these problems. :)

Thanks for the discussion!

[Jacque Savageau]

I was wondering if you were susan? Good to see you back! :cool:

[simonee]

Sometimes I wonder whether our 27-month old daughter is too... eek, it's hard to use the word... spoiled. I know dr. Sears insists that "spoiled" is what happens when something is ignored, but I use the word the old-fashioned way by lack of a synonym.

DH and I both work at home, juggling our hours around trips to the park and the store, and squeezing in precious time during nap and sleep. We don't mind the relative lack of money, because we have enough to live by, and don't want to miss anything in these special years. In other words, dd has always had -- almost :) -- all our undivided attention.

The problem is that she's recently started to throw tantrums. They're not full-blast, but pretty exhausting for all of us. She's always been willful, and that's what we both consider one of her best sides, especially because neither of us really is. We're suckers. Usually, in the course of one of these tantrums we realize that whatever the subject is, it's not really worth it, so we give in (e.g. she doesn't want me to wear the black shoes but the white ones, and I could care less). We've tried to not give in a few times, but then it turns into a battle of wills and I don't want to play those kinds of manipulation games. So I put on the white shoes.

I may need to add that she's very good about serious stuff. She won't touch coffee cups or knives, has never tried to put non-food items in her mouth, and runs for a "safe and protected" hug when a car drives by. So we feel that she has some judgment, and we want to respect her emerging view of the world at-that-moment. After all, we often choose what she wears, too.

Still, being raised rather traditionally myself (and having to deal with my family's slightly derogatory comments about "having to be all different again"), I sometimes fear that she'll become a little monster who'll get her way by screaming. Even though the little voice in the back of my head says she won't.

I guess I just need a little support ;)

We bf more-often-than-I-care-to-count (and besides, I've never seen the point in counting), cosleep messily but happily, get around in the sling (though not very much now that she approaches 30 lbs.), and she's very attached to both of us (even though daddy often has to deal with rejection).

Thanx for reading through this rambling!

[larsy]

Congratulations on 'having to be all different again' ;), simonee! Have you taken a look at the non-coercive education and parenting philosophy of Taking Children Seriously? In taking our children seriously, we also have to learn how to take ourselves seriously, and it sounds like you and your dh are going down that road, in finding solutions to problems that you all like- like, working at home which must give you such flexibility to be able to meet your own needs as well as the needs of your child. Sounds wonderful :)

I (and many others) have found that by having the philosophical underpinnings in mind, about what is bad about causing coercion in my own mind or that of my child (or any other intimate loved one), and learning and thinking about the non-coercive conflict resolution skill of finding common preferences, has opened up a whole new world view with vast quantities of solutions everywhere :) It is much easier to defend one's beliefs- all the while holding in mind that one is as fallible as the next person, and always looking for better theories than the ones we already hold- when you have some sort of articulation about why you think it is better to do things this way instead of that.

We are all conditioned to accept coercion as a way of life, and breaking out of that is hard! However, reasonable arguments can be made for the dignity of each person, no matter what their age or level of experience. We parents have the privilege and the awesome responsibility to help our children get what they want in life, while also helping our own selves get what we want in life. It takes some mental work to get past the societal memes we have absorbed, about 'can't always get what you want' and 'suffering is good' <ack!> and 'sometimes children just have to learn that they can't have (fill in the blank)' or conversely that 'they have to (do something that they don't want to do)'.

We can jettison the bad memes (self-replicating patterns of information) and disseminate good ones, like 'it is possible to raise children without making them do things they don't want to do, or have things done to them that they don't want' and 'it is ok to want what you want, and it's ok to get what you want'.

I think that children do want to do what is right. Lots of times, I think we adults have a hard time knowing what is right, being mired in our own coercion damaged thinking entrenchments.

Oh, I could ramble on for a long time! (ask anyone here ;) ) The TCS website is www.TCS.ac. You'll find lots of support and assurance that your child will not turn into a little monster if you help hir get what she wants. On the contrary. Why would a person who is respected and helped not learn to respect and help others? Kids need information and experience and access to the world. We parents have lots of that, and are here for our chidlren.

Very best wishes!

[Jacque Savageau]

Simonee - you dd is lucky to have such a caring and attentive mother. I totally understand your concerns. I have 2 and my secound was very attached and insecure when she was young. We held and reasured her a lot and gave her the power to sometime tell us what she was going to do - within reason of course. Now, at age 4 she's pretty wonderfull! She has learned through our compassion for her how to give that to others. She's still quite a tantrum thrower at times - it's all part of her passionate personallity! She's very creative and sometimes has her own idea of how things should be.

I don't beleive that you can 'spoil' a child with attention and meeting their needs. Love and Gentleness are learned behaviors, your setting the example that they will follow.

It's hard to deal with critisism from family, however, I think they'll come around as dd grows and they see how wonderfull she is.

[Paulab52]

Larsy or anyone, can you help me out....

I feel like I'm always telling my kids what to do. Yes, I know I'm the parent and I know what's best, but I swear, they don't listen to me anyway.

Example:

Take of your PJ's and get dressed so we can go out. They aren't doing anything, so having to stop isn't a problem. They just sit there and ingore me, or go the opposite direction from the bedroom. I have to ask them several times to come and get dressed. Then we have the whole clothing issues...

Get buckled into the car. Get buckled into the car, GET BUCKLED INTO THE CAR. Forget it, I'll just do it for you.

No you can't bring in the toy. No, no, no you can't bring in the toy, because it might get lost. LEAVE THE TOY IN THE CAR!!!

Do you want to ride in the buggy or walk? Ride or walk...ride or walk..ok you're riding, well then, walk..make a decision.

No you can't have a candy. Because we're getting ready to eat lunch. If you eat all your lunch, you can have a candy. No you can't have a candy now...BECAUSE I SAY SO. (the worst).

No we're not playing in the front yard when we get home. Because you don't listen to me and you play to close to the road. No, you can't play in the front, you can play in the back. Oh, the back's not good enough, then how about not playing outside at all?? Do you want to stay in the house?? Ok, so back yard it is.

This is just a sample of my mornings. Everything is a super power struggle. I really would like some alternatives to having to say no all the time, and I also don't want to feel like they are pushing me over and getting their way, even if it's something I don't want them to do.

How do all you TCS moms handle it? Please, don't slam me, I'm truely interested in your opinion. I've read the website, but I'm confused.

TIA

[Dragonfly]

Paula,

I'll be very interested in hearing responses to this, as well. While I generally am very flexible with ds and follow his lead, one area I'm struggling with is diapering. Silly, I know, but it's a *big* one here. He HATES to have a diaper on (he's one and is very adamant about his likes and dislikes - just one of the many things I love about him!) Most times around the house, I don't push the issue. If he doesn't want one on, then he doesn't. I let him crawl around naked and sometimes will catch him before he pees, in which case we'll go to the sink or toilet... sometimes not, and then he pees on the ground. No biggie ;) . But sometimes, we have to go somewhere and I really need him to wear a diaper. Then it becomes a power struggle, and I'm not sure how to avoid this one. Of course he doesn't understand the concept "I need you to put on the diaper or we can't go where we need to go" - and I imagine his answer would be "Well, then, let's just not go!" anyway. So, how can this be avoided?

Anyway, sorry for the ramble... I'll be happy to see the answers to your post :)

Dragonfly

[ediesmom]

LOL!!!!

That is Edie to a T!

I have learned over the past 5 years to make time for this type of behavior. We start getting dressed WAY early so it gets done. We do the extra time thing with food, baths,etc. It kinda works.

Another thing we do is if she wants something her way, she needs to tell me in ADVANCE. NO last minute requests! She loves to choose how we are going to drive home. There are 3 or 4 favorites, and she needs to let me know in advance which way she would like to go. There used to be temper tantrums involved with the drive, but giving her the reigned in choice has worked well.

A timer is a good way to get them going. I set the timer(sometimes) for five minutes (or however long) and she has that amount of time to get dressed, brush her teeth, whatever. Sometimes the timer is a bad thing with her, but most of the time its fun... kinda beat the clock.

Good luck.

randee

[talapas]

ooh, you're back Suzan, yay!

You always make me think, even thought I tend to lurk instead of post. So here is a question regarding the coercion issue. I can readily see how coercion can lead to the inability to know what one wants. That was really well explained, thank you! I needed to hear/recognize that today!

You also state that...

"I think this is a lot of what we learn as children when forced to pick up the blocks or clean up our rooms or whatever. Eventually, kids internalize that voice, having learned to force thier selves to do things they don't want to do.

I wonder how we learn to do things that we do not want to do, but that are necessary for survival? For instance, dd does not like to brush her teeth. She would not if she were not made to. However, it is very clear that not brushing her teeth will lead in the long term to ill health.

I was never really "made" to do things like chores too much. As an adult I found that this resulted in a severe handicap, because I didn't learn to do basic things like cooking, and cleaning. I had to spend valuable time learning to do things for myself by trial and error as an adult. I also struggle today with the self discipline to do them. I think these things could have been much easier to learn in childhood. I have had this conversation with other friends I have known since childhood, and they have basically said the same things. The ones who were doing chores and hating it as kids are grateful for it today.

I think sometimes kids don't want to do something because they don't think they can do it as well as mom or dad, or because it isn't convenient, or they are absorbed in something else.

The first one is the easy one, teach them how to do it properly, and make sure you don't judge the results, cause it might be awhile before they can do it as well as you. Self sufficiency is a very valuable tool for self esteem, and I just think it's too important to leave to chance or whim. (i don't feel like cleaning today mom, I may never feel like cleaning....that was me as a kid. Now I recognize the value of having a clean house- it helps my sanity. But it is still hard to muster up the self discipline to do it when I don't want to!)

You say that you can remove yourself from the absorbtion with another task, and respond to the child, which is great! How will they learn to do that as adults, if they are never asked to do that as children? I agree that it is disorienting to kids to be interrupted during deep absorbtion, so perhaps learning how to interrupt it gently is what we need to do. My first challenge is to recognize that state of absorption and facilitate it! Then interruption when necessary, by gentle means.

I kind of took off topic a bit, but I hope you get my drift

Leafy, are you me? LOL I have the same problem...to procrastinate ( thus my presence here) or go to the studio!
Tala

[talapas]

can someone please post the tcs? site that was referred to? I'd like to read up.
Thanks
Tala

[larsy]

www.tcs.ac

I totally don't have time right now- someone else wants the computer, but will come back to this when I can :)

[simonee]

Thank you both, Larsy and Ms. Mom. I read some stuff on the TCS site, and then browsed through these boards for more Larsy posts.

Non-coercion is pretty close to what we like to view as "anarchist childrearing" -- not really making rules, but mostly just going with the flow and adapting to the situation. We indeed take Audrey VERY seriously, because it's been clear from day one (and even before that, because she was one heck of a lively fetus) that there was a full load of wonderful and loving character in that little body.

I think it's just hard to let many deeply bred things go, such as the idea that parents know better just because they've been at it for a longer time. I've always believed that our instincts are probably our most accurate and reliable guides in life, and it would make sense that a child's instincts are not nearly as polluted by socialization and conforming as mine are. I generally feel good when we pretty much let her guide her life, and she is indeed well able to understand why certain things (such as diaper changes) cannot be avoided -- while at the same time protesting things that we somehow deem necessary, but that on second thought really aren't (such as choosing between the stroller and the sling, while we can simply bring both).

It's nice to put a somewhat accepted name to our parenting style, especially because the word "anarchist" always seems to evoke associations with socially unacceptable behavior
:rolleyes:

Again, thanks.
BTW today she said "tacky eaters" for "parking meters." It just cracked me up, especially since we used to live in buffet paradise Las Vegas!

[Alexander]

Aww nuts larsy,

why do you always find these post b4 me? ;)

Simonee, you have almost exactly described our circumstances, uncanily so. Except that we now have 2 DDs.

But I am stunned that you don't "draw the line" right up to health and safty, rather than at your whim. White shoes, black shoes. Why not let her choose. We let ours from as soon as she was able to indicate a preferance for anything (b4 that actually) and if that meant she went to school in pyjamas, then fine.

And that has not "spoiled" either of our childrem, in spite of the continuous warnings we had from that know no better.

In fact, our children willingly share their last strawberry, help, co-operate with just about everything . . .

There are boundaries, but we should seek to empower our children. Then they know what to do with it when they grow up.

Hope this helps.

a

[leafylady]

ditto to what Talapas just wrote. You just wrote everything that I wanted to say, but expressed it much more effectively.

[Alexander]

talapas
I wonder how we learn to do things that we do not want to do, but that are necessary for survival? For instance, dd does not like to brush her teeth. She would not if she were not made to. However, it is very clear that not brushing her teeth will lead in the long term to ill health.


This is a very good question, which intersects with education and the way we do/ought to educate our children.

So, I think I can help answer.

Children are designed through our evolution to survive. This is done by nature endowing certain tools to the human baby. Curiosity is among those at the forefront of our everyday observation. But another equally important one is mimicking, or perhaps that is not quite right, it is the enjoyment of mimicking older people.

Children in the past who failed to properly mimic were not provided with the tools for survival in the environments in which they were living, and thus were more likely to succumb to the dangers of life in the wild. You can see that those children not born with the feature that allows them to enjoy mimicking, die off, leaving those that do to reproduce and strengthen that gene.

This tool of survival, mimicking, is the key to how we can effortlessly provide our children with the tools required to survive in our environment. All we have to do is create a situation in which our children wish to copy us.

Whether it be potty training, brushing teeth, or tidying up, manners, loving and showing affection to one another or reading, children will always strive to emulate their elders.

Hope this helps.

a

[erika]

There have been some very interesting discussions on these boards regarding AP (attachment parenting) and TCS (taking children seriously). I wonder, however, whether use of these methods is a middle class luxury, only possible when parents have a certain minimum amount of free time and low life stress? Is this particularly the case when there is more than one child?

My question stems from personal experience. At the time my first dd was born I had never heard of AP, but I instinctually used many of the AP methods because it just seemed to work the best: cosleeping, babywearing, nursing on demand, focusing on teaching correct behavior rather than punishing “wrong” behavior, etc. Even though dh and I were both graduate students (therefore very poor and under a great deal of stress), I still managed to be deeply connected with dd. We developed a beautiful relationship, and I only rarely raised my voice in frustration – most of the time I could deal with any tantrums or outbursts in a very calm and nurturing way. I could not even imagine using physical violence against a child. In turn, people commented on how sweet and nurturing dd was with her dolls or with other children.

When dd was 4, I became pregnant again, and everything changed. I was vomiting 6-8 times/day and felt weak, miserable and depressed all the time. In desperation I went on medication, which reduced the vomiting to 3 times/day, but I still felt pretty awful. My parenting approach became very authoritarian, and I started barking orders and yelling a lot. After the baby was born, I actually swatted dd about once/day when she did something aggressive toward the baby (which is to be expected, given how she had been treated for nearly a year). During the pregnancy and shortly thereafter, I actually had some incidents like the other Moms Who Say/Do Terrible Things To Their Children In Public who have been excoriated on these boards.

I was very saddened to see what had become of my parenting and of my relationship with dd. I have since been working very hard to restore a more nurturing and respectful approach toward dd. I do find it more challenging to do this now that I have a little baby to attend to, disrupted sleep, etc, but I think for the most part we are healing past mistakes. I think my parenting approach still has that authoritarian edge to it, but we are making progress.

From this experience I wonder whether authoritarian/punitive parenting is really a function of time and stress rather than attitude toward children. Certainly there is a component of learned behavior – we tend to parent the way we were parented unless we make an effort to change. But is it possible to AP/TCS if you are a single parent working two minimum wage jobs to make ends meet – or two parents in the same situation – or a homeless mom trying to figure out how to get shelter and food for her family? Don’t AP and TCS take a certain amount of creativity and time?

Any thoughts anyone?

[peacemama]

What an interesting post, erika, you really bring up a lot of good points.

I wouldn't exactly say that AP or gentle discipline is a luxury, but I do agree that it might be more challenging for parents who are stressed due to lack of time, money, or good health.

On the other hand, many aspects of AP might lead, eventually, to less stress or financial burden - breastfeeding costs nothing and requires less work than formula feeding, cosleeping can be done in tiny apartments, expensive cribs aren't needed and mom and baby sleep better, babywearing promotes bonding and results in happier babies, and so on.

[geomom]

It is difficult in a culture that centers on the nuclear family and independence to create a nurturing web of people not only for our children but for ourselves. I think that it is more difficult to ap if the rest of your relationships are mainstream. If you (the general you, not erika specifically) don't have family nearby to help when things get rough, you end up doing whatever works for just that moment to relieve the tension.

That is why dh and I have moved closer to relatives we trust. And we've made sure that dd has formed a close bond with them. Dh and I work part-time jobs so that dd doesn't have to be in daycare, and we all get time together as a family. So I guess that AP isn't a luxury to us, it is part of a greater philosophy of how we live our lives. But dh and I are without a doubt weird. :) As a child, I thought being called a 'non-conformist and malcontent' was a compliment.

[sagewinna]

I have AP'd during many life changes: Working out of the home, then as a single mother (the kids were 4 years old and 9 months old), now as a SAHM who is happily married.


All along, I just followed my instinct. The situation we were in didn't change what I felt was the right way to parent.

I am, however, much more TCS than I used to be. I think this stems more from getting older and wiser than a change in my life status.

[MeMeMama]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is "Taking Children Seriously"?

Is this a style of parenting?

:confused:

[simonee]

Thank you too, Alexander!

I think there's been a slight misunderstanding, though. The only place where we draw the line is safety and health, even though we hardly have to because Audrey pretty much knows. When I wrote that a diaper change cannot be avoided, I meant that it can't be avoided in the long run. What we do is we talk about it being necessary and she says "don't like that," then we say she can let us know when she's ready and where she wants it done, and then 5 minutes later she'll usually come up and say "diapy floor" or something.

The main learning process is to switch off that autopilot that has allowed me for 20 or 25 years to choose which shoes I get to wear, and when I get to go to the store. My main problem is to get out of the mindset that "letting her have it her way" is something negative. Intuitively I know that anybody deserves to have it her/his way, but I sometimes just need to hear it from someone else because there sure as hell isn't very widespread support for this kind of thing!!

PS I love your description of your girls sharing their last strawberry, Alexander. That alone will boost my confidence for weeks. Audrey likes to tell everybody that .... is hers (like we go to the zoo as we do a lot, and she'll anounce "pink birds (flamingos) MINE!!") Just so there's no confusion there.

And one thing I know: "traditional" (i.e. last 100 years) parenting styles have definitely not resulted in grownups who know how to share!! After all, sharing is death for free-market economies!! ;)

[Mommy22B]

I know just how you feel. I am desprately trying to get over myown hangups on this. Most days I end up disapointed in myself because I get rude and force her around. But this is a new concept for me and I have only been at it a week or so, and I totally notice the bad things I do. I am working at it! I am just so disapointed in myself sometimes. My latest "problem" Is that yesterday I bought this little outfit for her. I didn't think to ask her if she liked it. I am not used to her having such preference yet. Well, she hates it. We were very bad parents and forced her into it yesterday, but today it was rejected. :) I am proud that she is so grown up as to have preference. I will just have to start letting her picko ut what I buy for her.
It is really hard to get over the social ideas that they can't have their way are they will be brats. Why???? How often do I get my way? Pretty much all day long. One question I have is can they learn to compromise? and how early? Like if I wanted to wear my black shoes and she wants me to wear my white shoes...if I really really have a preference for the black ones is there a way to get a 1 1/2 year old to compromise?
Beth

[simonee]

MeMeMama, yes it is a style of parenting, as I found out myself only a few days ago.
Check this website:
or http://www.tcs.ac/
or any of the posts by Larsy (and Alexander) I think.

As far as the rest of this thread goes, I wonder the same things Erika does. I believe that neither AP nor TCS takes up more time or effort in the long run than traditional parenting, but it depends on how you view your child. If you consider yourself a unit during the hours you spend together, it only makes sense to co-everything. No getting out of bed at night with a baby, no need to heat bottles of formula or fret about balancing all those nutrients into tiny portions, fewer endless tantrums because you listen to the child before it gets to that point, and babywearing so you don't have to fold and unfold a stroller all the time, can only save time and effort. If you consider your child a little "counterforce", someone who's out to manipulate you and make your life harder, all these things are only going to seem like "extra work." In that case, AP or TCS is definitely not for you; in that case, you may even wonder if you need assistance so your parenthood doesn't weigh so heavy upon you.

Traditional parenting may seem simpler because there's less time-consuming negotiation and other interaction involved, and children that fear a parent will quickly learn "better" than to interfere. There must after all be a reason why this style is so preponderant in our instant gratification society! Still, a parent like Erika who resorted to this style probably would have been fine if she had found another way to cope with her stress. And, Erika, no matter what your parenting style had been, it would have been much harder with the new baby.

I think the decision to go with any non-mainstream philosophy, whether it's childrearing or something else, requires time. THinking about it, doing research or communicating with other adherents, gaining the ability to articulate a defense when you're forced to do so (and it happens a lot :) ), takes a lot of time. Time that not every double-jobbing single parent (or 60-hour workweek executive) may have. If you choose to live your life in a way that makes many AP or TCS things recognizable, you'll find caretakers, preschools, etc. who think alike. You don't have to spend 24 hours a day with your child to take her or him seriously. On the contrary -- no better way for a time-starved parent to be close to a child than to wear her, sleep with her, and try to listen and negotiate during the hours you do get to spend together!!!

AP

[sugarmama]

i'll just try and tackle one or two of these issues and tell you how i *think* a TCS parent might handle them. (by the way, i am FAR from the perfect TCS parent--if such a thing exists :) ), i have just been reading lots about it and trying to practice it for the last several months.

as far as leaving the toy in the car: TCS would ask: why is it so important to leave that toy in the car? could you explore the idea of allowing your child to take the toy with them? whose toy is it, anyway? you could explain to the child that taking the toy would mean that they'd need to hang on to it, etc. ultimately if the toy belongs to them, they should be able to make the decision about it.

getting in the carseat: TCS parents would try to come up with a way to get their child to agree to getting in rather than giving the child "chances" to get in and then simply doing it for them. you could give them some stickers or something special in the car, talk to them about where you will be going, etc.

no matter what, TCS parents wouldn't force their child to leave the toy just because that was their (parents) preference. arriving at a common preference would mean that maybe the child could take a less expensive toy into the store with them or agree that putting the toy into mom's bag when they were finished would be a good plan.....

can someone who is more TCS savvy (larsy? you know me as ally's jill) verify if what i've said here makes some sense?
thanks and hope that helps some!

[bunny's mama]

anyone heard of abraham maslow? he was one of the humanistic psychological theorists way back in the day. he also taught at brandeis university.

anyway, i bring him up because he had a theory of human behavior that had to do wiht what he called "the hierarchy of needs." (imagine a pyramid with different levels) basically, food, shelter, etc. were on the bottom, and what he called self-actualization was at the top, with other stuff in the middle (get the idea?) anyway, he said that it was impossible to self-actualize or even move to the middle levels without first having met our lower level needs for food and shelter, etc.

anyway, perhaps maslow would agree, erika, that a homeless mother or someone having to work 3 jobs just to put food onthe table, would have no time to parent AP or TCS, not because she wouldn't have the time, necessarily, but because her mind would be on surviving the day to day, not on helping raise her children in an optimal environment.

but on the other hand....i think lots of AP is just how a lot of folks parent naturally and instinctively. so maybe even if a parent was stressed about "lower level needs" she might still choose to sleep with her child, discipline gently, etc.

a very good question. i think how we parent under stress has a lot to do with how we were parented. that's just my theory. ;)

[Paulab52]

Thanks for the reply Sugarmama! I don't know why it irks me so much about the toy. I just know he's gonna lose it and then I'll have to deal with all that :)

Keep the ideas coming. I'm really trying so hard here. I get so frustrated with myself, so I know how frustrated the kids must be.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Mommy22B

One question I have is can they learn to compromise? and how early? Like if I wanted to wear my black shoes and she wants me to wear my white shoes...if I really really have a preference for the black ones is there a way to get a 1 1/2 year old to compromise?

Beth



A good question. First I would like to point out that for people that are just starting to try this out, you must not expect quick results. Just b/c you start using a new parenting technique will not change the child's view of you over night.



From their point of view, and their entire life experience is of something entirely different, so it may take time for some children to learn the new relationship that you are trying to create. That said, there are perhaps 2 guide lines that are essential to follow:



1) have the patience of Jobe (my middle name;))

2) be consistant



On compromise.



Children love to compromise! Yes it is true. They love to share power too!



"Not my kid!" Well you would be surprised! Children need to feel empowered b4 they can risk sharing or compromise.



Black shoes for Mama, but they want you to wear white? So wear white! A small gift for your child (satisfaction). Of course if it is raining, and you want to wear boots instead of ballet shoes, then there is a case to be made to the child. This kind of logic is something children lap up. It makes sense to them.



We, for such a short time in our lives must "out up with" the demands (sometimes very odd) of our children. In a flash it will be gone.



Complying with our children's peculiar demands helps them to form a model of how the world works. We can not transfere our model to them. They must build their own, and we have a responibility as their primary care givers to ensure that this is done as optimally and "humanely" as posible.



Last night DD#2 saw me pass the black chopsticks to dw, and I started to use the red ones.



"NOT THE RED ONE!!! Your BLACK ones. MUMMY is red!!!"



It was a nuisence to change, but change I did. In her world, she had noticed that Daddy uses the black (longer), and has not lived long enough to know that dw and I frequently interchange.



As children become more aware that they hold power over their lives, the more they DEMAND to interact with others around them, and that can only be done by continuously compromising.



Hope this helps



a

[Linda in Arizona]

Where I draw the line is the kids telling ME what to do. I will wear whatever shoes I want and it isn't any of their business. Likewise, they can wear whatever shoes they want. End of story (I freely admit to putting their sandals at the top of the closet during the winter).

My kids are 3 and 5 and are good at working out comprimises with each other. For example, yesterday they both wanted to watch TV, but one wanted to watch PBS and the other wanted to watch an elephant video she got at the library. They came whining to me and I explained that they had to find a way for both of them to be happy. They started explaining their points of view to me and I stopped them and said they needed to talk to each other. They left and a few minutes later annouced they had agreed to watch the video first, and then PBS. They were both happy with this and it kept me from dictating what they would do.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Linda in Arizona
Where I draw the line is the kids telling ME what to do. I will wear whatever shoes I want and it isn't any of their business.

Awww, come on Linda! Kids need to tell us what to do! And it's fun!

Ever read John Holt "How children learn" and "how children fail"? There are some examples of how children learn about their environment that are similar to this in those books.



My kids are 3 and 5 and are good at working out comprimises with each other.

snip

They left and a few minutes later annouced they had agreed to watch the video first, and then PBS. They were both happy with this and it kept me from dictating what they would do.

Now, I am impressed! :)

a

[marymom]

I think, in my self evaluation...that TIME and money play largely in the ability to parent ones children with love, and ofcourse having more children immediately affect those things, also, in my opinion, you will find things like, genetic nature, some people get upset easier than others, some people get more stressed-just because thats the way they are, then you could evaluate(if you wanted to<yawn>)diet and then ofcourse greatly factoring in would be the parents own upbringing and experiences with her/his own parents...
and it seems ALOT easier for some people to choose to parent AP or TCS...(I hate using categories but ...)than others
Me, I have 5 great great wonderful children (of my own) in my house...no dad living with us, and I am freakin STRESSED out- and Ive heard all the information on having less children and if I had it all to do over again I might have less(I even have an older child who lives on her own making the total 6) might have started older, might have this might have that
but I am older now, (41- and someone mentioned being older makes it easier, I agree)and as hard (can you sense some frustration here? its been a rough month)as it is to choose to parent lovingly because of all the factors and as IMperfect as I am...I know I am the perfect mom for my kids...I inately know this.
and so are you
and I can choose to decide to try and be a certain way, and reading about some of these perfect moms with non violent loving nurturing kids(okok, I didnt mean perfect) and reading some ofthese perfectly awesome living arrangements helps me,actually supports me and renews my resolve to have more patience,to try not to hit my kids(spank whatever),to try not to yell too loudly,
I can choose to try
and we can all choose -the extent of the challenges some face vary greatly- but
I am so thankful for a place like this-
oh man, that reeeeeealy turned into a vent, Im sorry but it was JUST what I wanted to post about
I camt to this thread because this week I did not discipline gently,
and Erika, you sound lkike a great mom, hang in there sweetie, its all about choice and mistakes and doing your best and yeah, maybe alot of it is time
a child spells love, T I m E so do I and for me its about conscious choice and effort

[larsy]

Compromise is not optimal, when it comes to having no one being coerced. If any one of the parties involved can look back at the solution and say 'I would have rather had X than what I got', then a better solution could have been found. Compromise is a win-lose or a lose-lose proposition. EVeryone has to give something up, that they want. Finding common preferences is the only way I know at present to find/create win-win solutions that everyone is happy with. And it doesn't have to mean throwing the children back on their own resources to figure it out (unless that is what they want). A parent can be a big help in figuring out common preferences- in fact, the more trusted advisors and sources of information and ideas invovled, the better. The larger the pool of potential solutions.

A parent makes a statement of hir theory that the parent does not tell the children what to wear just as the parent does not want to be told what to wear. This is a fine statement of supporting each other's autonomy- each person has the absolute right to say what goes on with their own body. However, hiding some of someone's clothes that one knows they might prefer, even though they are not the best clothes for the season or whatever, puts the lie to the statement of autonomy that goes before. The parent has all the power, and decides how it will be meted out. Just a couple of days ago, I was with a child who had thrown on a pair of sandals before getting in the car, and then on top of the mountain, wanted to get out and play in the snow. A lovely snowball fight ensued, child got cold cold cold, and was happy to get back into the car and go on, wrapped up in mom's snuggly shirt and a towel around hir feet. Yahoo! and not one ill effect. :)

Little kids are dressed by someone else from the beginning, and when they show their preference as best they can, they are often misinterpreted, and somight end up being over or under dressed, or have something uncomfortable sticking them in the where ever, for many months before they can effectively make that fact known. What a person is dressed in is not set in stone in this society any longer- thank the powers the be!!!

Why not ask children what they'd like to wear, out of the entire set of clothing available to them? Why not ask them if they think parent's clothing is appropriate? "Does this look alright? Do these shoes look ok with this? They're the most comfortable, and we will be doing lots of walking, so even though they are purple, I think I will wear them so that my feet feel good and carry me through the day" This kind of interaction gives kids lots of information about why people wear clothes without it having anything at all to do with them and so no implied pressure risking coercion.

Kids learn from their clothing choices. They learn if someone tells them 'that looks really stupid' and they might not care if it looks stupid to that person because it is their very favorite pajama shirt and cape and they like to wear it. The kid wearing sandals in the snow might not want to do it again, or might, in the face of the propect of playing in the snow or not just because of the sandals, choose to play in the snow in sandals again because s/he knows that s/he can warm up effectively after having fun and getting cold. Or this kid might prefer to change into shoes and socks before stepping out into the snow.

Kids know what they want. Some don't care about being cold, if the experience holds great promise of fun. Some don't want to be cold, so will avoid the cold experience or be sure to be bundled up so they can enjoy the fun. We parents can bring along the extra clothes so they are avaiable for those who want them. hypothermia is certainly something to be guarded against and prevented- that is something we parents can prevent.

But I am getting away from the 'child telling parent what to do' scenario. Most kids don't try it very often. They learn early on where the power lies, and it ain't in their court. Except for the stuff they can get away from behind a parents back. or manipulate or tantrum over. That is their only power, in those cases. imo. Kids will own their autonomy, any way they can. Why not help them own it straightforwardly?

'Mom, wear the red shoes!" "Why?" "Because I say so" Is this how children experience the world? Being told what to wear, with no explanation that makes sense to them? If a kid will talk to a parent, parent might find that child has a perfectly reasonable explanation for whay they want parent to wear a particular shoe or sit in a particular chair or eat with particular chopsticks. A discussion can ensue, where both parties can learn about each other and the things they are discussing. Coercion cuts off these opportunities to learn.

off for a walk...

[Alexander]

Originally posted by larsy
off for a walk...

Red or white sandles? ;)

The " 'cos I say so" that children may use is likely learned from what is, IMO, coersive parenting.

I have never (I hope) coersed, and, as a result, our children have never used (or even understood) that phrase.

Thet have always sort to explain their reasons and ideas.

Great isn't it! :D

a

[Linda in Arizona]

[B]

Awww, come on Linda! Kids need to tell us what to do! And it's fun!



May be it is fun for you. It is not fun for me. I'm not interested in raising little pint size dictators who think that want they want is MORE important than what other people want. I am working to raise my kids to know that what they want is AS important as what other people want.

I don't know how many kids you have or if you have pets, but teaching my kids that their autonomy ends with themselves is necessary. In the real world, the only families I know who are totally non-coercise only have 1 child, and the child has trouble playing with peers.


Ever read John Holt "How children learn" and "how children fail"? There are some examples of how children learn about their environment that are similar to this in those books.



yes, I've read those books.

I am not a NCP, though I am far, far less coersive than most parents. I've read about NCP, attended a conference, and even tried it for a while. I ultimately decided it was not the right path for our family. I believe that young children should be given a great deal of freedom and allowed to come to their own conclusions, but within the bounds of respecting other people (even respecting their parents!) and not hurting animals, not hurting themselves so badly they need to visit the ER, ect.

So if I say that I handle things a certain way and you shout that I'm not giving my kids autonomy, I don't care. We are doing what works well for us and allows our family harmony. My 3 year old is much happier being able to go in her room and dress herself and know that what ever she picks is fine, than needing to be concerned that half the choices are inappropriate. For me, finding ways for us to live happily together is the goal, not living up to someone else's definition of a parenting style.

[kama'aina mama]

I am really resistant to the idea that AP is a luxury. I look at AP as a stich in time. Look at your more mainstream friends with their kids. Do they actually seem to spend less time 'dealing with' their kids than you do? it doesn't seem to me that they do, and that much of the time they do spend is in crisis management mode.

My belief is that every child, indeed every person, requires a particular ammount of time spent with them to feel validated, cared for, etc. We then get to choose, do you want it to be time nurturing, teaching and loving or time correcting, punishing and haranguing? Most everyone manages to get the time they want, the question is whether it is the kind of time they want or not.

I am not sure I am being clear, so I may come back later and take another crack at it.

[Linda in Arizona]

I think it is an interesting point. Although we AP don't necessarly spend MORE time dealing with our kids, we spend the time with them before things become a crises. If someone's life is in crises and they can only deal with the crises of the moment, doing those things that will prevent crises later just can't happen.

For example, I think that many kids mishave to get their parents' attention. Because I have the luxury to be home with my kids, and my DH has the luxury to come home to a house with nice hot meal, clean clothes, etc, we have both have a lot more time to spend with our kids. If there were only one of us or if we both had to work, it would be impossible for our kids to get the quality of time with each of us that they get now. Giving our kids attention never gets to the crises level, but if our situation were different it most likely would, even though our intentions and therories would be the same.

The price for us for this luxury has been moving frequently for my DH's job and not living near extended family, which put different stresses on us and different requirements on our kids.

[m&m]

well,

I find humor, or making fave toys do something works a LOT of the time - it is not mommy or daddy doing it - but the toy?

I'm tired, it is 12:30am so bear with me if this is not making sense :)

for ex: I would say: orange cat (whatever toy is called) wants to stay warm and cosy in the car. do you think that would be ok?

wait for response - usually aggrees, if not...

then, if you really insist the toy stay in the car you can add: "she really does not want to get dropped and dirty, you can either hold her really tight, or let her wait in your carseat for you. which do you choose?"

I also pretend to be Supermom - and fly her around places

another of her faves is her papa pretending to be a giant when she needs her diaper changed (she is not ready to completely potty train yet) - he says in a loud deep voice "fee fi fo fumm... I smell a stinky bumm!"


humor does not always work, but when it does we all laugh and feel great. :)

[larsy]

Paulab52, you wrote:

"I feel like I'm always telling my kids what to do."

It is a pretty new world to them, and they are probably glad to get lots of advice from someone they trust- mom and dad are the best candidates for 'trusted advisor' status. Tentatively offering information, and being willing to listen and to adjust one's theories in the light of new information, makes more sense than to order people around without regard for their feelings and wishes in the matter, in the context of close personal relationships.

"Yes, I know I'm the parent and I know what's best, "

Well, there is the biological fact of being the parent, and then there is the trusted advisor capacity. Human beings are fallible- yep, every single last one of them, even the pope ;) If a person approaches any situation, sure that they know what is best, they are apt to miss the opportunity to improve their theories and to find what is more best. :) And, in the parent-child relationship, they run the risk of causing resentment and anger and desire for revenge and closing off lines of communication and such like.

"but I swear, they don't listen to me anyway. "

And I think this is why kids don't listen to parents. Parents have told them how many times? about this is going to happen or that is going to hurt you, and the kid does whatever it is and finds out that *parent was wrong*. Yet, parent seems to think that 'parent knows best'.

Words matter. How a parent talks to their child about what parent wants to do next in the day or about bringing a cherished toy into a store with them or about brushing their teeth or anything at all, makes a big difference as to what sort of solution will be found to any problem. Solutions that come about through non-coercion do not harm people.

Is it right to coerce/cause coercion in the mind of one's child, or in one's own mind, for that matter? What is the harm that it does? What about telling the truth? A parent might want to think about how to tell the absolute, scrupulous truth. Sprinkling a lot of 'I could be wrong's and 'it seems to me' and 'as far as I know' and 'this is how I think it is' and 'my understanding is' let's everyone know that there is room for more information and that we might never know the truth of any matter, but this is our best theory according to what we know now. And the way is open for anyone involved to throw out their ideas, and ne knowledge can be created.

In some instances, child does know better than parent, especially when it comes to what is going on in hir own mind and body.

Quoting Paulab52 again:

"Take of your PJ's and get dressed so we can go out."

How about asking if anyone wants to go out? Including everyone in making the plan, get ideas about where to go. A parent can outline the things that they want to do, and see what others want to do , and they can work out a plan to get it all done, keeping in mind along the way that preferences change, and the plan could change at any time, as well. Flexibility is a virtue! :)

If a parent has a great theory about why the family should all get dressed and go out to do many interesting things, the kids might very well be willing to get dressed and get on with doing the many interesting things. If they are being forced to get dressed when they don't want to, to do things they don't want to do, I can understand the avoidance tactics. Maybe some kids want to go in their jammies. Maybe some would rather stay home with a babysitter or relative or go to the neighbor's while the rest of the family goes out. Maybe they would rather go out in the afternoon than in the morning. Maybe they'd like to stay home all day and have friends visit. EAch person has their own idea about what they want to do, and to ignore that and push one's own agenda upon unwilling people is wrong, whether it is parent and child or boss and employee or government and citizen--- ok, I'm getting off track ;) TCS is about the relationship between parent and child (though there are other lists that talk about the further implications of TCS theory).

" They aren't doing anything, so having to stop isn't a problem."

This is totally an assumption, and quite likely to be wrong and is anyway disrespectful. Check out the college PhD professor in hir office, feet up on the desk, gazing out the window. Doing nothing? Probably not! I would prefer to err on the side of assuming that any person is doing something (in their mind), whether or not I can tell what that is from observing them. And that whatever they are doing is very important to them, and I will tentatively ask to be excused, and is this a good time to talk about something? Or will you let me know when it is a good time?

"They just sit there and ingore me, or go the opposite direction from the bedroom."

Sometimes when people think they are being ignored, they actually have not been heard because the person is busy concentrating on something else. This happens to me, when I am busy thinking about something, and I have observed it happening in others. Again, assumptions can get in the way of treating people respectfully.

If a parent does a lot of controling of things that are not their business- things that any autonomous person should have control of their own self, like when to get dressed and what to put on, when and what to eat, when to sleep, and so on, then I can see where the victims of the intended control might try to avoid that controller.

" I have to ask them several times to come and get dressed. Then we have the whole clothing issues... "

How to change this situation? I think a parent has to become convinced in their own mind that coercion is not right. It is not about results, about finding a method of dealing with children that 'works' so as to produce an obedient child or any other sort of child product. TCS is a philosophy about how to live together in a family non-coercively. It is about the right way to treat people. About non-coercive ways to resolve conflict. About how people learn.

A parent who wants to change the way they interact with their children so that they are dealing with each other non-coercively, would want to apologize to their children for all the coercion they have so far visited upon them. They could explain that they are trying to change their ways, and this is a process, this learning how to live together and solve problems that arise in a non-coercive way, and enlist the children's help in identifying coercion as it happens and then in finding common preferences when conflict does arise. And they would continue to apologize for using coercion, when they fail to find non-coercive solutions, and talk about the failures and figure out better ways for the next situation.

Respect. "Can you buckle your seat belt, or would you like help?' 'If you get tired of carrying your toy, I'll put it in my pocket so you don't lose it' 'If you take your toy into this store, they might think you didn't pay for it when you leave, because they sell that toy here, and we don't want to have to pay for it again! So maybe it should stay safely in the car? What do you think?' 'How about if we tie a string around the toy and the other end onto your beltloop, so you can't just put it down and forget about it and leave it?'

Food is a huge issue that we all have problems with, I daresay. How can we not pass on our poor food theories? That is an issue for another thread, methinks.

If a parent doesn't trust their young child around streets and traffic, the child might need lots more information. Examining road kill when one runs across it ;) (I'm not saying literally run across it) can be very instructional though only if the child wants to look at it. Taking a plastic bottle and putting water in it (maybe even color it with food coloring) and parent and child can watch as someone drives a car over it and see what happens to it and talking about these things can help a small child understand about the danger. Ask child how they would like parent to help them stay safe, in case they forget when running around or chasing a ball. A fence between yard and street might be a good idea. Child might be happy to play in back when understanding about these dangers. The solutions will be different for every parent-child relationship depending upon their dynamics and experiences, and the solutions will change frequently too, I'll bet. Flexibility and creativity.

HOpe something here helps, for starters. :)

[larsy]

Also, anyone wanting to think about how they talk to their kids and wanting to change it- there was an excellent thread on the TCS list maybe sometime last summer, I think, by the subject name 'changing our language habits' that gave great examples and analysis of the power of language and how we talk to kids. I recommend joining the TCS list and getting the archives, if you are interested in learning more about this.

[mama joy]

Linda in Arizona,
I'm with you. I'm picking my own shoes out, my own meals, my own whatever, because it has to do with me. I don't mind allowing my son to do the same for himself. It seems to me that allowing my son to coerce me teaches him that what he wants is more important than what others want. By not being coercive, I'm teaching him that each individual should have control over their own life. If I do whatever he says, then I am teaching him that he has control over my life. I assume he will transfer that to others also. Little dictator is a good description of that person I imagine him becoming.
Has anyone read Thomas Gordon's Parent Effectiveness Training? I love that book because it talks about working together to meet everyone's needs. Using consensus rather than coercion. That's what I am trying to achieve.

[larsy]

Linda in Arizona wrote:

"I'm not interested in raising little pint size dictators who think that want they want is MORE important than what other people want. I am working to raise my kids to know that what they want is AS important as what other people want. "

Er, right, the dictators who think that what they want is more important than what other people want are, uh, parents! ;)

So, does a child have the same responsibility to meet a stranger's need as to meet their own?

echoing that sentiment is mama joy:

"I'm picking my own shoes out, my own meals, my own whatever, because it has to do with me. I don't mind allowing my son to do the same for himself. "

And if a parent did mind 'allowing' their child to choose their own clothes, food, etc, then...tough, eh? Kids don't have any inherent rights? And if the child chooses food or clothing or ways of spending their time that the parent does not agree with? What then?

The language of 'allowing' exposes where the power lies in the parent-child relationship- with the parent, of course. That is the conventional, society-sanctioned way.

Parents have a unique responsibility in the relationship with their child/ren. They are responsible for their children's existence, in the deepest sense. So it is also their responsibility to help their child/ren to grow and learn about their world. The parents have the access to the world, the ability to access the resources of the world, along with having the experience and knowledge of how to operate in the world, so if the parents are not willing to lay their knowledge and access and experience at the feet of their child in order to help the child get what they want in life, the child is stuck with being dependent upon the good graces of what their parent will 'allow' them.

Kids are not able to go out and get their own red or white or black shoes. If they want the red ones, and the parent will only allow the white ones, the child's autonomy suffers and coercion wins the day.

If it is not right for child to tell parent what color shoes to wear, it is not right for parent to tell child what color shoes to wear.

I agree that children's preferences are every bit as important as the parent's preferences. Finding common preferences is a great conflict resolution skill that helps each person involved get their needs respected and met. But there are some things that the decision is really up to the child and a parent should stay out of, beyond offering advice if it is wanted. What goes on or in a person's body, and what is done to one's body, is all morally within that person's right to say. No matter what their age.

[mama joy]

Larsy
Maybe you misunderstood me, but I don't interfere with my son's choices for himself. He just doesn't make decisions for me.

[simonee]

Thanks everybody, for turning this into such an interesting discussion. When I started the thread, my concerns were pretty much what Mama Joy and Linda in AZ have been writing. However, as Larsy's and Alexander's responses kept coming in, I have really started to reconsider these concerns.

I think that my child knows I'm different from other people (I'd sure hope so ;) ). When she "dictates" what shoes she wants me to wear, that doesn't mean she'll do that with other people, too. Also, she has only made "comments" about my shoes a few times. It's not an everyday thing. I know she's influenced my shoe choice MUCH less often than the other way around! If she chooses her own shoes five times a week, because that's the only times she cares, the other two days she just lives with my choice. I get to choose my own shoes about 29 times a month, and I don't feel that I'm raising a dictator if I acknowledge her wishes that one other time.

Even then, she's not "making my decisions." She tells me what she wants, and I honor and respect that. If it freezes, I'm not going to "let her decide" that I should go barefoot. I'd try to explain to her why that's not an option, and I'm pretty sure we'd arrive at an agreement. And yes, if necessary I'd give her a choice between my red and black shoes, ignoring the strappy sandals for that day.

Hey, if I wear the very-unmatching shoes, at least people will have something else to look at while we're bf in public! :p

[m&m]

just want to add my comments to the mix :)

After taking child development classes for several years, I learned that children go through stages - some regardless of parenting styles.

For example tantrums due to frustrations at 18months to 5 yrs
tantrums due to control issues from 2-4 years
calling everything mine or ownership issues from 3-7 years
privacy issues from 5-19 years
etc.

Knowing this, I know that my style of parenting will not determine IF tantrums happen, but how they get resolved. :) That is what is important after all.

And if you have a bad day and get upset and raise your voice, then apologize and that in itself is also a learning example for your child.

I believe in teaching my children respect, but they due must be respected. :) respect does not mean spoil -

[Heavenly]

Well I practice AP but not TCS (a little too lax for my liking!) and I do not think it's a luxury. I am a SAHM, yes, but we do not have a high income at all. My husband makes 31000 a year and we have a mortgage and two vehicles. You do the math! :) AP is the easier way to parent in the long run I think, at least if you TRULY want whats best for your children. How can anyone truly think spanking and yelling is best for their children? Sure it's a knee-jerk reaction (emphasis on the the jerk) but it isn't best. How does it take more time to hug your child and say "I realize you really wanted that toy but someome else is playing with it right now. Why don't we find you something just as nice to play with?" That is easier IMO than smacking the kid for grabbing a toy. In the long run detachment parenting costs you more time as your kids end up with discipline problems and many other problems. So you end up having to take time off work to go to teacher's conferences and you can't get the house clean because the kids are little hellions who won't listen to you. Nope AP isn't a luxury, I think the other is a luxury - the luxury of sounding off and acting like a child yourself whenever you feel like it. It's time to grow up people!

[Linda in Arizona]

Heavenly, I love your post! I, too, think that in the long run it is much easier this way. I think it is sort of funny (and sort of sad) when people tell me I can "get away" with postive discipline because my kids are so "easy." It is much easier to parent kids who know they are unconditionally loved and who feel good about themselves.

[sugarmama]

larsy,
is it possible to get the archives without being on the TCS list? or can i access them from the babies toddlers list that i am on? i didn't like sorting through the many messages of the TCS list and am reluctant to sign up again.
thanks,
sugar

[Linda in Arizona]

If you are happy having your child tell you what to wear and that is what feels right to you, then you should do so.

I have 2 kids, so if I let them decide what other people got to wear, they could argue about what I wear and agrue about what they other one wears. This would just be a silly waste of time, add a great deal of stress to our days, and we would most likely never be able to leave the house again. :) So we all pick out our own clothes.

On things that affect all of us (to go to park or stay home, which board game to play, what book to read next), we talk about it and come to an agreement. Considering that when my kids have a conflict between themselves, they can usually talk it out and figure out something that works for both of them, you'll have to excuse me if I think that I'm doing is working just fine.

[sugarmama]

Heavenly,
it's funny, i agree with all you said except for paranthetically when you said TCS was "too lax". i just wanted to defend TCS parents. they are generally respectful and always there with their children to advise and help their children to get what they want......i have been reading about this recently.....it seems that TCS often gets confused with "laissez-faire" parenting, and that is really not the case. do you feel that children need to be coerced in order for their parents to be truly present?
curious,
sugarmama

[simonee]

Thanks Linda,

I truly believe you're doing a great job. Your kids reaching an agreement on video vs. PBS sounded excellent.

I think agreements are what we all strive for in our homes - agreements on my shoe color, dd's diaper change, and where we go at what time.

I just really love input. I love it from dd when I'm putting on shoes, and from all those other mamas and daddies when I read or write on these boards!

Simone

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Paulab52
Larsy or anyone, can you help me out....
snip
please don't slam me. I'm truely interested in your opinion. I've read the website, but I'm confused.
TIA

No-one is going to slam you. This is all about "non-coersion"!!!;)

But anyway. How old are your kids? How many of them. Who is the worst, and what really pisses you off?
Good examples though. I can get back to you when I have more details.

Can you give more examples? That would give more meat to give a flavor in the answers :)

a

[Alexander]

Ok. I have an admission to make!

Until I met larcy (as suzan), I had never heard of TCS either! In fact, I have not even checked past the first page on their site!

The reason for this is that is that larsy's view on these boards so intersects with mine (though the orogine is different) that I take it as read that I'll intersect with most of www.tcs.ac/


The ax I grind is for a simple humanity and the defence of a child's voice and world view that is little understood, because we as adults take our own W/V so much for granted.

Having admitted all that, :o I will always try to back up my "fly by the seat of my pants" style parenting with logic and fairness.

Fairness.

That concept turns out to be a peculiarity of English culture that is still found and practiced in counties that have found their own democratic roots in English common law.

It's a rare and precious thing, easily lost it seems to me, and in a way, we have a duty both as parents and as fellow humans to those yet unborne, to encourage a cradle able to hold all that is best about humanity such that they can move beyond us, and the mayhem we find in the world.

Sorry. :o I find myself explaining what drives me instead of answering the post. Now I'm out of time and have to put the babe to bed and get back to work!!!

I'll catch this thread later though.

a

[paula_bear]

I think that parents in "lower" socio-economic strata may be less likely to come across AP and TCS information. For example, I saw my first issue of Mothering in the health food store. With my first child, I read more mainstream magazines and those formula-sponsored rags in the OB/GYN waiting room. So unless one is fortunate enough to have had a gentle upbringing, one may not even consider the principles of AP and TCS. However, OTOH, in many developing countries, breastfeeding, feeding-on-cue and cosleeping are the norm and children are treated gently and valued very highly. I think a mother's love is universal, but that is not to say that societal norms don't "mess with it."

As far as putting these principles into action goes, I sometimes agree that stress is a big factor. Despite unbelievable financial pressures since the birth of my daughter, I have tried my best to put AP into practice. At times I envision myself parenting much better, if only all the other problems would just vanish! I guess it all comes down to 1) AWARENESS and 2) the decision to make an honest effort to put that awareness into action.

Hopefully I haven't strayed TOO far off the topic here.

[larsy]

I don't think of TCS as a luxury, but as a necessity. Certainly, survival is a priority, but even as we are hauling water and picking berries and grinding the corn, we are interacting with our children and how we interact is the issue. We are not living on a tribal level, where survival has been linked to strict tradition. We are living in a society where problems are solved by creativity. Being able to think clearly and learn are essential. Coercion gets in the way of thinking clearly and learning, so non-coercive relationships are optimal at this point in our evolution, imo.

Check out the movie 'It's a Beautiful Life' - I'm pretty sure that is the name of it, an Italian film about a guy and his son in a WWII concentration camp, and how this guy keeps his kid safe, using great creativity. It's a great flick, thought provoking. Talk about optimism in the face of difficult life situations!

Erika wrote:

"From this experience I wonder whether authoritarian/punitive parenting is really a function of time and stress rather than attitude toward children."

Oh, no, I think it is first and foremost an *attitude* or a paradigm, one's vision of the world and how best to get what one wants in the world. When a person approaches life from a TCS point of view (I'll talk about TCS, as I don't think that AP is a coherent philosophy that excludes authoritarian beliefs), the problems of time and stress are assumed to have a solution- not that figuring out the solution is easy, but it is out there and can be found. I think the TCS paradigm opens a person to a larger pool of solutions.

"Certainly there is a component of learned behavior – we tend to parent the way we were parented unless we make an effort to change. But is it possible to AP/TCS if you are a single parent working two minimum wage jobs to make ends meet – or two parents in the same situation – or a homeless mom trying to figure out how to get shelter and food for her family? Don’t AP and TCS take a certain amount of creativity and time? "

Yes. In the midst of the time restraints and the frustrations and worries, a parent can become aware of the elements fo the situations that are causing problems- maybe, just little ones- and finding solutions for those problems opens the way to finding solutions to larger ones.

If a single parent is working two jobs, they can still be on their child's side in life. They can work together to figure out how they can get what they want, and help each other. If child doesn't like their childcare arrangements, others can be researched and a better situation found. The more people they can talk to and get ideas from on how to solve problems, the better. The single parent can take hirself seriously, and hir child/ren. They can define their wants and needs, and lay out their resources of time and money and earning power and people available to help, and keep looking for common preferences. If they don't like the way their life is right now, they can identify the things they want to change, and keep working on finding ways to change those things. I've heard it said that by changing just one little thing, great things can happen.

[larsy]

Eek, ack, er... I'd just like to say a word about privacy. Part of TCS is taking people's privacy seriously. When people post personal details about their children to a public list that thousands of people (at least) have access to, it is a gross violation of the children's privacy. It is one thing for a parent to post anything they want about their own self- they have the right to do so. But to post such details that a child would be able to recognize their self if they read it (and it is a distinct possibility that archived posts would be available to anyone including the children in the future) and feel embarrassed and violated and no small amount of coercion- I see that as a violation of privacy as well as contributing to the objectification of children in parent's minds.

I realize this is not a mainstream view, that parents are used to talking about children like possessions, without regards to the child's right to privacy, but this is the wrong thing to do. Isn't there something in the posting guidelines or mission statement or whatever they call it for this website, about not posting information that violates people's privacy? I see that guideline being violated constantly on this board.

So, Alexander, when you ask for more details, I must protest. It is not necessary to discuss any particular child's life on a public board. I urge posters here to think about writing hypothetically, and not embarrassing their children. Even if a kid says, yeah, sure, you can write about that, they might change their mind about that in a minute or a day or a year, and there it will be.

Part of taking children seriously is not violating their privacy on a public board. (did I mention that already?)

[larsy]

sugarmama,

You could subscribe to the TCS and set yourself to nomail so that you don't get the daily posts- or you could just get a digest. I think you could still access the archives even if you are set nomail (I could be wrong about that, but you could try it and see!)

[erika]

Thank you all for your responses!

It has been very helpful to me to read the different opinions on this issue. Besides bringing this up as a discussion/debate topic, I also had a specific agenda here - trying to figure out what happened to ME and why I melted down under pressure.

I think several points that have been made were particularly relevant to my situation - 1) I realize now that I don't deal with stress well, and 2) it is an attitude problem.

It was hard for me to figure this out because AP was so easy when dd was young even though we were under incredible stress - living on $10,000/year. So why now that we are homeowners living a comfortable existence did I melt down? At first I attributed it to the stress of feeling very ill, etc, but now I think that's where attitude came in.. AP was easy for me while dd was under 3, because I never believed it possible for children that age to "misbehave" - I didn't consider tantrum-type behavior or other baby/toddler stuff "misbehavior" and thus I never felt the need to resort to punishment. But I think my view of her changed once she could legitimately challenge my agenda.

But there is still one detail that links this stuff to middle class existence in my mind: we had never owned a car before, but after the new baby arrived, I was really breaking under the strain of getting the older child to walk to doctor's appointments, grocery stores, or even home from friend's houses, at a pace that exceeded .5 mile/hour. Quite honestly, all of the ugly moments I had were about getting her to walk somewhere we needed to go (such as an appointment, or home for supper, or to buy food so there would actually be some when we got home) when she didn't feel like going (yes, coercion). I thought if we had been hunter/gatherers she could have straggled behind and then run to catch up when she was ready, but with modern roads etc it just wasn't a safe option. So we got a car and my life became magically easier in many regards. I would argue that it's a lot easier to run errands or get to appointments without coercion using a car than it is to do it all on foot....

or do you think I'm setting up a straw person here?

[pie]

We have been cooped up for days as every time I tell DS it's time for our walk or time to go to the beach, park etc. he says 'no' and runs off. Later he'll come up and say 'to beets' which means let's go to the beach I'll say 'Great! Let's get you all dressed and ready to go.' Well, then he tells me no again. I really like to get out and so does he but he hates to get dressed. Once we are out the door he's fine but the fits he has when I am trying to help him get ready are not worth it almost. I don't want to force him to go but on the other hand he needs some encouragement to get going... I know this is a small problem and will pass wtime but I don't really know how to handle getting ready to go somewhere w out totally overpowering him. Any advice? I let him choose to stay in when I can but we do have to leave the house from time to time!

[larsy]

Erika, you have put your finger on what I think is a weak point of AP. Once the baby grows up and demonstrates that they have their own agenda, what happens to meeting children's needs? Coercion usually rules the day. TCS seemed like a natural extension, the theory to help with that problem of AP, when I first ran across it. It fills in the blanks.

Gosh, I'd like to say more, but havoc is breaking around me.

[marymom]

larcy, what do you mean we arent living on a tribal level? Who is WE, us here? well ok maybe wee arent but...
It is my opinion that tribal survival is exactly how in fact many americans live, maybe not the majority, certainly not us as we sit typing on our computers, but many are- and for them....AP or TCS would be a luxury, not neccessareily bourne of economics but if socioeconomics indicate general stresss and education levels which we know they do- the rest figures in...so ladies, I must say I adamently believe that there are many practically impovershed families who practice AP and TCS(altho none with 2 vehicles and a mortgage as someone above mentioned would qualify in my humble opinion as being econimically challenged) but MOST of them are FAr far far from the majority and for the most part it is a luxury ,a blessing to be able to parent like this, and I am greatful for the luxury- and I will look upon my parenting values AS luxuries that I may be able to share with others not so lucky by lovingly offering examples and most of all by doing what I do around those who may not do the same that they may see it and see its benifets because as you have all pointed out it is much more economical in the long run anyways monitarily,time wise etc etc

[Mommy22B]

We are going through the exact thing with our dd. How old is yours? Just thepast few days she will have a fit when we try to dress her. She loves going out but hates the getting ready.
She has been sick so we have mostly been letting her stay home. If we absolutely have to go out we will try to make the dressing quick fun and painless. i am hoping this passes soon!
Beth

[pie]

Exactly. Jackson is 2.5 and was sick last week and is also cutting those last few molars. It is awful! I mean, he has much happier days when we go outside a lot. We have both been pretty much not ourselves. I am taking the oppurtunity to wrestle and play with dough and paints and such but the thing is that we need fresh air and I do not want to MAKE him get dressed. I want to help him. It's different now that he's older: he is not easily distracted. Any of you more experienced moms have suggestions?

[pie]

Treelove, you are a love. I never thought to surprise him! I bet that would really help. Here I am trying to be all respectful when it is his developmental nature at this point to oppose me and make decisions. Not that I still can't be respectful, I guess I just need to be more playful and think on his level. Ooh, we have LLL party at ten...I can't wait to try it. Though I've tried the sneaky approach to baths and that doesn't help...any advice there?:D

[Linda in Arizona]

the car thing...

There have been times that I have been very coersive re: car seats and holding hands in parking lots.

[peacemama]

I have to admit that while those really important safety issues tend to lead to what some here call "coersion" (though I don't agree with the term), I have tried the alternative. For example, dd doesn't want to hold my hand in a parking lot (this happens often). If I take her over to a safe spot, get down on her level, and say something like this:

Me: Sweetie, do you see all these cars driving around?

DD: Yes.

Me: What do you think might happen if you ran ahead of me with all these cars moving around?

DD: Maybe I could get hurt.

Me: What do you think we should do to stay safe?

DD: (proudly) Hold Mommy's hand!

Me: What a good idea! Let's hold hands so we stay safe.

I know, I know, it sounds like I made this up, but it really does work that well. Of course, having a verbal child makes a big difference - I don't know what I'd do with an 18 month old other than just carry her!

Of course, I don't always think to do this, and if I'm rushed, I'm even less likely to use this approach. The knee-jerk reaction is to just give the rule and grab the hand, even if she complains. But I've been doing it more and more, and it's becoming more of a natural response, because it's self-reinforcing. Not only does it work, but we both feel better because we've had a positive interaction rather than a negative one, she's proud of herself for coming up with a solution and feels good that I treated her so respectfully.

In my neverending quest for peace in my life (hence the name ;)), I really try to get to the end of each day feeling like dd and I had mostly positive interactions. Doing things this way really helps keep the peace. It takes a little extra time, but you know what? Time isn't nearly as important as we all think!

[peacemama]

Ever try using humor to get him dressed? When dd doesn't want to put on her coat, I'll sometimes say, okay, I'm going to put on my coat, and then very seriously try to put on HER coat and act all confused about why it doesn't fit. (Can you picture this? Do I look like the world's biggest idiot? Then you're picturing it correctly! :p ) She'll usually say, "No, Mommy, that's MY coat!!!" and then all I have to do is laugh, act sheepish, put on my own and then she puts on hers. Hey, she may grow up thinking mom's got a low I.Q. but at least we get out of the house :p

[Alexander]

Originally posted by larsy


Eek, ack, er... I'd just like to say a word about privacy.
such details that a child would be able to recognize their self if they read it (and it is a distinct possibility that archived posts would be available to anyone including the children in the future) and feel embarrassed and violated and no small amount of coercion-


So, Alexander, when you ask for more details, I must protest.

larcy, the more you post, the more I love it. :) So I will start to think about a mechanism to prevent this type of problem.

And your notification about this subject comes not a moment too soon. Other members on this board have PMed me about related subjects, and I have requested permision to some to allow me to use the resulting interactions asseeds for threads.

So for these, and all future posts, I will be editing in a manor that will present the private discussions in an anonomous "Doe" format.

If I err, please let me know so that I may make the appropriate edits.

Thanks again.

a

[Paulab52]

Thanks everyone for your replies. Larsey, you've given me a lot to think about. I've been trying to be concious of the things I say to the kids. A lot of what you say makes sense, but in a way I think it's crazy because my kids are under 5. How much of "reasoning" do they understand?

I'm just so frustrated at myself right now. Yesterday was a COMPLETE failure. If anyone was to get Worse Mother of the Year award, it would go to me for my behavior yesterday.

I look forward to many more of your TCS posts. I'll keep posting about situtations and how different things can be avoided.

Thanks again everyone.

[larsy]

How about wearing comfortable clothes 'round the clock, that can go out or stay in? i'm thinking of cotton knits, sweat clothes, stuff like that.

It seems likely to me that there is something about 'telling' a child that it is time to do this or that, that is offensive/disrespectful to the child. Is this how a parent would present the idea of going out to a fun place to an adult friend? A person of any age might agree to going somewhere, and change their mind about it as the time to go gets closer and they realize that they are more interested in continuing what they are doing, or they just don't want to go, or whatever.

A parent can ask the child/ren for ideas of what they would like to do now/today, and engage in everyone throwing out ideas, considering them until they hit upon one that everyone is happy with, and then do it. If a parent offers an idea tentatively- ' I feel like going to the beach today, what do you feel like doing?'- there is room for child/ren to offer their ideas. Some days, ime, common preferences are easy to come by; other days, it can take awhile or creativity can be lacking and it seems impossible. At those times, it is better for parent to back off and help child get what they want, and to keep thinking and exploring to find the common preference. It is parent's responsibility to back off at these times, because the parent is responsible for the situation in the first place. parent brought child into existence, and so is bound to help child to learn and grow and get what they want in life.

Likewise, giving a child space in which to decide when they want to change clothes and what clothes to change into, supports their autonomy and bolsters the parent's position as trusted advisor, ready and willing to help child. IME, little kids don't need daily bathing (except maybe for some parts of them, which they might consent to when given the space and information- some of which they might need to experience in order to understand about, just like a lot of adults) or even clothes changing (when clothes get trashed, children are often willing to change- some insist upon it!- but parent might need to be willing to re-examine their theories that a food spill or a dirty face is grounds for coercion).

Every person has the right of consent about what goes in and on their body and what is done to their body. This is what makes it right for children to tell anyone a resounding 'no' if they don't want to be touched in any way, be it a parent, sibling, doctor, pedophile. Empower children to understand and claim their rightful autonomy. That probably means figuring out different ways of relating to a child, then the conventional parenting-expert route.

HOpe something here helps :) Best wishes!

[larsy]

Don't mistake lack of experience and information and knowledge for lack of the ability to reason! Coercion will confuse a person so that they become irrational- look at any adult! we all have our areas of irrational confusion, and I trace it back to coercion around these areas- but I think that human beings start out rational, though needing help to negotiate the world and learn about it.

Also, take yourself seriously! Take care of and be kind and respectful to yourself, too. You have a lot of company in feeling like a failure and having bad days. I joined you there a couple of days ago! Apologize and go on, asking the kids for help in identifying coercion and in finding solutions. We all fail at finding common preferences, at avoiding coercion, at opening our minds and having ideas. *This does not mean that we are failures!* We each have a lot of strong points, and we are changing our thinking and learning new skills. Of course we are going to make mistakes along the way! That is how we learn.

It took me months to even be able to broach the subject of coercion with my family. I really had to absorb and learn about it on my own. I had to deal with my own anger at how I had been treated as a child- and I did not have a horrible childhood, but a 'normally' coercive one. It took years before I felt like I understood much about TCS at all, and longer to be able to articulate the theory. It is an exciting, frustrating, painful, exhilirating, worthwhile, life-long process. :)

[pie]

Hi Larsy, I've read a lot of your posts with great interest.I agree with you that making a giant issue out of a bath or getting dressed id not effective parenting. My only question is how do I include my ds, who not only has limited verbal skilss stil at 28 mos. but also completely and totally ignores me when I try to talk to him half the time, in real decision making? I would love to, and try the would you like pancakes or toast, a bath or a wiping, markers or sandplay, what would you like to do approach but usually he doesn't say anything at all! How does your method of parenting apply to toddlers who are still such little babies yet also big boys and girls? It's like he's fighting to stay a baby and fighting to grow up. I'll let him be a baby or grow up, or both, I love everything about him, I just don't understand how to deal with him. He is not very rational by my standards at this point in time. Additionally, I can really feel him growing a little more detatched in the past month or so and I'm wondering ig this is a normal part of growing away from your mom to gain independence. One more thing, he gets so mad whenever I try to read, make up stories for or especially sing to him and always has. He lets me tell him the names of things in his books and what they are doing, but not read. It makes me so sad because I always looked so forward to that part of mothering. I mean, I know it's his deal and it doesn't matter, it just bothers me. Anyone else have a baby who doesn't want to be sung and read too? thanks.

[Lucy]

Larsy, I am curious about this too. Do you mean to say that a child should not even be told he needs to brush his teeth, or wash his hands after going potty? This seems extreme to me. I am all for giving dd choices, within a certain framework though. For instance, yes she dresses herself, picks completely inappropriate things, but who cares, right? I mean the other day she wore underwear as a hat lol! Anyway, she just came out from the bathroom, where I knew she didn't wash her hands, and she told me she didn't want to. Now we learned abt germs, did some fun handwashing experiment s in the past, where we learned how hard it is to get germs off, ect, so she knows intellectually the importance of washing hands. However she would not do it untill I told her, "Yes yoiu need to do that now"

Brushing teeth at night is the same thing. She doesn't like it at all. Her choice would be not to do it. Isn't it my responsibility to see that these basic standards of care are being met?

Just curious Larsy. Trying to understand...

Mamapie, st I think its ok to just go without getting "ready" Just take the clothes in the car, and get dressed when you get where you are going, or just go as he is. It seems like he wants to go, he just doesn't want to do the dressing ect.

[pie]

Lucy, funny you say that. We brought the clothes to the park the other day (well, shirt and shoes) but ds, let me expain, is strong as a bull, weighs in at 36 ibs at 2.5 yrs and didn't want his shoes and shirt on...he wanted to play right now!!! I almost dropped him on his head that day. I don't want to "beat" him into submission but want to teach him how rewarding a little cooporation can be.:confused:

[Lucy]

Mamapie, that is so funny that you had just tried that. I know exactly what you mean. St it feels like dd makes absolutely no concessions, its either her way or the highway!

[Jish]

Lucy,
When you say that the child intellectually knows the importance of hand washing I think that you are giving them too much credit. I too find myself assuming that my three and a half year old ds is on a higher level than he is, and expecting more from him than he is developmentally ready to handle. Things like germs are concept, not a tactile reality that they can touch, and most toddlers and preschoolers are not ready for the abstract. The whole idea that we should give our children a choice in things like personal hygene really bothers me. It is our job to raise our children to be responsible caring adults, and how responsible and caring is it to spread fecal contamination and who knows what other germs and illness to others, including the elderly and those with health issues.

Although they may be the center of our universe, our children are not the center of the universe to anyone else. Giving them too many choices or giving choices where choices are not due creates children who are selfish and self-centered. These children have a very hard time adjusting to life in the real world with others. After all, the school districts and the business world are not going to cater to our children's wants and whims. Years of working with children in a variety of settings has taught me this, and I work hard to ensure that my sons thrive as individuals, but who respect the needs and rights of those around them.

Lucy, this really isn't directed to you, so please, don't take it personally, but I saw the word "intellectually" and connected it with my preschooler and had to laugh.

Beth

[Jish]

Linda,

Thank goodness you posted. I was beginning to think I was the only one here who didn't let my children run my family.

Beth

[larsy]

Lucy wrote:

"St it feels like dd makes absolutely no concessions, its either her way or the highway!"

I suspect that this is the way it is for kids- parent's way or no way at all. And the kids don't have a choice, dependent as they are on parents for shelter and food and love and life.

Why can't a kid play at a park without shoes and shirt? I see this all the time. If child feels cold or wants protection for feet if walking on stones or whatever hurts, parent has the clothes for hir to put on.

As lovely as working together towards mutual ends can be, cooperation cannot be forced (sorry if I'm stating the obvious ;) ). Figuring out what each person wants, and finding a way for both/all to get that, helps everyone feel respected and valued and imo will make each problem-solving situation more likely to be a cooperative experience. People will want to participate, when they know that their wants/needs are going to be considered on an equal footing as everyone else's, regardless of age or power.

Learning to act in one's own best interest is a powerful motivating factor in life, and the best interests in which to act, imo. A person must see the sense of washing hands and brushing teeth. It is not necessarily true that if a person does not wash their hands after using the toilet or brush their teeth every time they eat, they will suffer dire consequences. Parents likely follow these routines, and talk about why they do so with their children as they grow. Children like to imitate, and so practice doing these things in their own way, in their own time. By forcing the issue, I think a parent does more harm than good. It is possible to convince a child that washing hands at appropriate times and brushing teeth are in their own best self interest, and to do so non-coercively.

If a child doesn't want to wash their hands, and the parent is totally grossed out by this, this is the parent's problem, not the child's. A parent can recognize this, and work on improving their theories- but in the meantime, they might be able to find some fun involvement with water and soap in the kitchen or the back yard that would satisfy the parent and child.

The teeth thing- believe me, I've had huge issues with this. In researching, I've come upon a lot of information about stuff like decay in baby teeth not needing to be treated necessarily, but watched in combination with as much cleaning as possible and offering such foods as actually help clean teeth and adjust the PH balance of the mouth to discourage cavity formation (like cheddar cheese) and chew sugarless gum and swish out a mouth with water. It seems that it is the luck of the draw, to a large extent; some people can eat lots of sugar and hardly clean their teeth and still not get cavities, whereas others can clean their teeth scrupulously and avoid sugar and still get cavities.

Lucy again:" However she would not do it untill I told her, "Yes yoiu need to do that now" "

So the message is, even though you don't want to, you have to anyhow... because why? Because children have to learn that there are things they have to do whether they want to or not? I think we are agreed that it is a good idea to wash at certain times, but how to convince a child and respect their autonomy? What if a parent responds to a child who doesn't want to do something, "I think you are making a mistake. There are good reasons for doing X. Do you want to know what they are?" "It is your body and it is up to you how you take care of it. Do you want to take the chance of transferring bathroom germs to your mouth and maybe getting sick? Or to someone else?" and launch into a story about Typhoid Mary ;) Child might listen to this from parent, if they are accustomed to getting good information from parent, and be persuaded. Or they might just want to go do what they want to do and be left alone. Shouldn't that be respected? If a child is forced, and builds up resentment and faulty theories, arent' they likely to not wash/brush at times when they can get away with that? When they do avoid doing what parent wants them to do, they are not getting the benefit of the washing/brushing, just as they don't get the benefit if they decide on their own not to do it, on occasion, and that is respected. If not coerced, they can continue to learn and think about it, and are likely to reach a place where they are glad to do the washing/brushing because it make sense to them. They will not be 40 yr old adults, forcing their selves to wash/brush with a bad feeling in their minds; they will feel good about taking good care of their selves.

Does this make sense?

[pie]

First, jbcmom, I love what you said about children being the center of the universe. My sil's son beats and bites the holy hell out of my son, who is a year younger than her son's 3.5. Anyway, she really doesn't tell him not to hurt other kids. She just goes, oh baby, that's not nice. I am a lot stronger in my objections to my son being violent with other kids, although he hits me when he wants me to stop singing or talking and I'm a big softie about that. As a result, ds really is quite gentle, especially to samller children. Anyway, one day I was tellimg my sil that some people think that their children are more vital to the world than anyone else's and that only your world revolves around your child and you can't expect your neighbor's to. She said,"Oh, I disagree. My baby is the most important thing in the world and the whole world does revolve around him." I was like,"Oh, to you?" And she, in all seriousness, said,"No. I firmly believe he is more importamt than everyone. I don't need to worry about anyone else." I thought that was a really selfish and dangerous attitude.

Larsy, I am beginning to get the concept of non-coersion, however I find the extreme to which you believe in it a little impractical. That is not a dig at you, I am just letting you know how far my understanding of your views goes. I will reiterate that I want to find a way not to force Jackson to do things, but sometimes we have somewhere to go and he has a poopy diaper and no other clothes on and I have to get him dressed. Period. He is not quite up to understanding the reason, and I wish I could just let him run totally wild, and I do AMAP. However, sometimes he, for example, picked up a big dog turd and then turns around and wants another cracker. Guess what? I HAVE to wash his hands. I have no idea how you practically handle situations where it is impossible to cater more to your child's autonomy than to the reality of the situation. How do I change his clothes or wash his hands without stepping on his toes? Because as an adult, there will eventually be situations requiring compromise and I don't want him to remember me overpowering him and thus be afraid of or resentful toward things that life simply requires. I deeply appreciate anyone and everyone's input because I think the situation is bigger than it looks. I mean, a friend said she thinks he is oppositional! To me that is a handy pop psychology catch all term, but he does not like to do anything I need him to do. He is only 2.5, and that comes w the territory but I want to smooth out the situation as it is serious to us both.

[Lucy]

jbcjmom, I wasn't advocating what you were talking abt at all. I also agree with you that things like handwashing aren't issues up for discussion. When I said dd knew intellectually, what I meant was that we spent a while learning abt germs while studying Madeline. We coated our hands in vaseline, and sprinkled pepper on them, and then tried to wash it all off. It was hard to get off, which led to a discussion abt how we must wash hands properly ect. , germs like to stick to us.

Anyway, Larcy when I said its her way or the highway st, I was commisserating with mamapie. And no, its not my way or the highway in this household. Some issues are health and safety related. I should have added, we were fixing food at the time, hands needed to be washed. Shoes at a playground are necessary. Atleast where I live, there may be glass or st . There are things we do to keep our kids safe. Abt the teeth, I think it would be more traumatic for her to undergo a dental procedure than to simply brush her teeth once or twice a day with pretty pink toothpaste and a musical toothbrush!

I am going to bow out here, bc I want this thread to be helpful for mampie, I don't want to sidetrack it. I just wanted to respond.

[pie]

Hey, Lucy, come back! You aren't sidetracking a thing. I learn best when I hear lots of different viewpoints and I liked what you said.:)

[Lucy]

Thanks mamapie, you're so sweet! I was afraid I was distracting from your original ?.

[grisletine]

hello im new to this forum and find that tcs and all its implications fall directly in line with my present beliefs. where can i get this book? amazon doesnt even have it!

[Jish]

Lucy, I new you were going to take that too personally. None of my post other than the use of the word "intellectually" was directed at you. I really liked your idea of vaseline and pepper. If I ever run int