Unassisted Childbirth -- Where do I stand?

[Dodo]

I had never even heard of planned unassisted births until I become a lurker here at MDC when dd was three or four months old.

My initial reaction (please don't flame me!) was disgust -- not, I should say, with the women who choose UC, but with the possibility of *my* giving birth unassisted.

When I gave birth to dd at a free-standing birthing centre, I really appreciated the support and energy provided by the midwives and their students. They were my silent cheerleaders. I wanted to share the birth with them. At the time, I was a little surprised, because I had been planning on insisting on privacy during the delivery.

The thought of giving birth without the company of women intimidates me.

With the exception of heights and spiders, I like to try things that make me uncomfortable (e.g., I'm terribly uncoordinated but love taking dance classes, I find languages difficult but I got my MA in my second language).

Add to this the fact that over the past year a lot of my pre-conceived parenting notions have been blown to pieces (e.g., I'm one of those moms who swore that she'd never co-sleep, but now I wouldn't have it any other way).

So, now I find myself thinking about UC. How do I feel about it? Do I think it's empowering or a practice without historical precedent? I really don't know!

I'd love to hear what you all think about this topic. Have you done it? Would you like to? Why or why not?

[XmasEve]

This sounds like a really cool and honest thread (well, they all do!) so I'll jump in.

I'm expecting my first in a few months. I'm only just drinking age now, so I can't say I've spent a lot of time thinking about parenting. (But this little one was very, very much wanted!) But I'm a quick study and make stubborn (some would say "snap") decisions. I have had "white coat phobia" since I was an infant. So I had always thought I would definitely have a midwife and homebirth-no other way for me. Well, turns out there's no midwife in my current location. Very hard for me to accept. Now I'm facing a hospital birth, even though every prenatal visit at the doctor's office leaves my shaky for days afterward.

I would love to do an unassisted birth. But DH refuses (he's trained as an EMT and lesson one for them is that dr.'s word is law). He would do a midwife-attended homebirth, but UC is too far out there for him. So no more babies for us until we live somewhere with a midwife, because we'd both feel better about that. And while UC is my alternative to not having a midwife, his is hospital. Oh well, a few more months to steer him my way...

[Arduinna]

I'm all for it and plan to do it with my next pregnancy.

My dh wasn't so sure about it when I first told him what I wanted. But he trusts me to know what's right for me and would never think of telling me what I can and can't do. Now that he has learned more he thinks it's the only way to go. He says his original doubts came from societal attitudes and not his own personal beliefs.

[laurashanley]

Hi Dodo,
Here's a page you might find interesting - "Historical Presedence for Women Giving Birth Alone" - http://unassistedbirth.com/alone.htm

As you'll see, there are many cultures where women gave birth without any help at all. But actually, even if there weren't, I still would have done it this way. Catching my own babies felt very natural to me. So even if this wasn't the way of the past, I believe it's the way of the future. :)
Laura

[Dodo]

Thanks for the link, Laura. I did read that New York Times article. Dr. Borst's quote evidently had a lasting effect on me!

Greenfaeriedog, I sympathize with your dilemma. My dh, very much to my surprise, turned green when he learned that I'm hoping for a homebirth for our second (who we haven't even begun to think of conceiving), so I can only imagine how he'd react if I wanted a UC. In fact, when I told him that I wanted a homebirth, his first question was, "Not unassisted, I hope?"

Arduinna, how did you convince your dh? Also, will you have a prenatal care provider, and, if so, would you make her privy to your plans? The only UCer I've met IRL didn't have any prenatal care. Again, I don't know how I feel about that... On one hand, she armed herself with information, and I think that's so important, on the other hand, I hear stats about prenatal care lowering infant mortality, etc.

[Arduinna]

Dodo, honestly I didn't convince my husband. But I do think their were some factors that influenced him. He already supported home birth, so it wasn't that far of a jump to UC. Second, he has alot of trust in our bodies ability to do what what it needs. I do that is really important. He strongly believes in the mind body connection. I had a natural pregnancy loss at home, and while the labor like pain was quite similar to my dd birth it was much easier to handle at home, alone and in the dark. We had planned a home birth for that pregnancy.

As for prenatal care, I strongly suggest "Expecting Trouble, the myth of prenatal care in America". Author Thomas A Strong, JR MD I got mine from Amazon. It will open anyones eyes to prenatal care, and is written by a Maternal Fetal Medicine specialist.

I haven't made a final decision about prenatal care. The funny thing is that I grew dd for 20 weeks without prenatal care because 6 -- pg tests and a past history of very irregular periods had me convinced I wasn't pg. And my lay midwife I used the last time doesn't usually start seeing clients until the 6th month and only does iron, protein and sugar tests. So while my dream is to not even have a due date or an official prenatal care provider I am still working out some issues with myself. Our society doesn't trust ourselves much and it often takes alot of work to figure out what you (in the plural sense) actually believe verses what someone else has told you they believe.

Hope that made sense.

[lovinmama]

Hi all!
I had a hospital birth first, unassisted second, and with my third who is 7 months old I hired a midwife. The reason I decided to have a midwife with my 3rd was because at the time I was living in a new area with no close friends, no friends at all really, and I thought it would be nice to have another lady with me since my husband is not really the type that likes to be really involved (he justs stands back and tries not to pass out :-) I still was very reluctant to get a midwife and only met her a couple weeks before my babe was born. Anyway if I ever do have another child, I will definately go unassisted (mabey a friend for support, but not hire a midwife). For me it was this weird loss of power thing. I dont feel like with a midwife there I listened the way I should to my own body...for instance....after I birthed my sons head, I was on hands and knees and I had this natural urge to go back onto my bottom, but because the midwife was there, I asked her if I should, instead of doing what I felt I should. I have the birth on videotape, so I can hear myself asking her if I should roll over and her saying no and then she started tugging on my sons head. I mean really tugging. I just stayed in that position even though I really wanted to roll over, then she told me to roll and as soon as I did his shoulders were born. It was obvious that I instinctively knew what postion I needed to be in but because I hired this midwife I felt that she was in control and did not listen to myself the way I would have had she not have been there. I was almost complete when she arrived but the whole energy changed when she got there. This may have been because I did not really know her and did not really want her there anyway....so for me I am all about unassisted!!!!
Racheal

[laurashanley]

Regarding prenatal care (or prenatal scare, as some people call it), I never had any. I honestly believe it can make things worse. When you go looking for a problem, sometimes you find one and sometimes you create one. Even those you supposedly find can often be resolved without interventions. I'm sure a doctor or midwife would have tried to turn my footling breech baby into the "correct" position. Yet he was born easily because I wasn't afraid and listened to my intuition. I know three other women who also caught their own footling breech babies without assistance. I also know a man who has been in a wheelchair his whole life because as he was being born (feet first), the doctor tried to push him back in and turn him around. Granted this is an extreme case, but I know of many cases where doctors or midwives have made things worse rather than better.

Here is something Jody McLaughlin (editor of Compleat Mother magazine) sent me recently. She mentions Tom Strong's book which I still need to read.

"Prenatal care in the past was mostly benign; blood pressure, fundal height measurements, urine checks and unfortunately, blind weight gain restrictions. Today it is aggressive and frightening, something many pregnant woman can do without.
In the middle 1980's the calculation was used that every dollar spent on prenatal care saves $3 caring for sick babies. I don't know where those numbers came from but I believed them.
However, anyone who still holds the belief that prenatal care improves outcomes must read "Expecting Trouble: What Expectant Parents Should Know about Prenatal Care in America"
by Thomas H. Strong, Jr. MD New York University Press 2000
ISBN 0-8147-9779-2. Dr. Strong, a practicing Ob/Gyn in Arizona roundly criticizes prenatal care. With all its bells and whistles and good intentions, prenatal care does NOT prevent prematurity, low birth weight or reduce the infant mortality rate. 'The conventional wisdom that prenatal care is crucial to the well-being of mothers and their babies is incongruent with the findings of published medical research and our nation's experience over the last
half-century.' pg 29."
Laura

[indigolilybear]

freebirthers here!

we had a very "assisted" homebirht w/dd who is now almost 4. took me a while before i realized that i had many issues w/what happened there since i did have a "nice HB"

next child, ds, we birthed at home by ourselves. it was wonderful and totally "uneventful", just a logical progression. i cannot see myself doing it any other way.

and for the record, i was scared s**tless every step of teh way, but kept acting on the side of faith, in myself, my body, my baby and my family. and it was teh most empowering experience of my life. i highly recommend it to those who "feel the call" LOL.

[XmasEve]

Originally posted by indigolilybear
and for the record, i was scared s**tless every step of teh way

Wow, thanks for that. It makes me feel so much better. I'm exploring all these resources for UC, but this is not addressed so I start to wonder "Am I the only one? What's wrong with me?" It's a huge relief to know that someone else was scared. Now I know my faith is strong enough!

As far as prenatal care, I get it, of course, since we're "planning" a hospital birth (feels more like just climbing on the conveyor belt). But I think I would get it even if it was apparent that we were definitely going the UC route. As it is, I decline just about everything but a quick FHT check, weight check, fundal height, etc. But it's nice to know that I have the resources to ask for more. (For instance, I was very concerned about my Rh factor because of my medical history, so I was glad to have that test.) I think the important thing for me is to realize that *I'm* in charge at the prenatal check-ups, NOT the Dr.

[Dodo]

Yes, thanks Indigolilybear. Part of my recent interest in UC centres on accounts of painfree, ecstatic births. On one hand, I find it heartening to hear stories of birthing pleasure. On the other hand, I know that the labour pains I felt were real.

Laura, I have been thinking about that article you suggested. I have two concerns with it.

First, I think it dredges up the stereotype of so-called 'primitive people', especially women, being impervious to pain. In Stephen Jay Gould's book The Mismeasure of Man he quotes Cesare Lombroso, the father of criminal anthropology as writing "All travellers know the indifference of Negroes and American savages to pain: the former cut their hands and laugh in order to avoid work; the latter, tied to the torture post, gaily sing the praises of their tribe while they are slowly burnt." Goldsmith's reports of unassisted births amongst 'tribal' women are second-hand. Are 19th century Western travellers a reliable source of information on 'tribal' culture? These observers may have seen what they wanted to see, you know what I mean?

Second, I'm uncomfortable with stories of women birthing one hour and returning to work the next. When I was pregnant, my mother, who apparently thought I was feeling too sorry for myself, sent me the obituary of a Ukrainian-Canadian woman who had homesteaded on the Prairies in the twenties and thirties. This women had fifteen children with very little support and no money so she had no choice but to do heavy housework and tend to the garden immediately before and after giving birth. Well, guess what? She lost four of those fifteen children! Birthing and working do not an ideal combination make.

That said, I understand that you are not swayed by the past. I'm just sharing my concerns with you because I think that this article does not make a compelling case for UC and I know that as an advocate you are in a position to pass on references to interested women.

I am going to try to get my hands on that book about the myth of prenatal care, though.

[laurashanley]

Dodo wrote:
>On one hand, I find it heartening to hear stories of birthing pleasure. On the other hand, I know that the labour pains I felt were real.

I don't doubt they were real. I had some pain in all of my births, although it was minimal. But the fact is, labor pains are not a given and there truly are women who experience pleasure. Many women experience pain AND pleasure. I posted those quotes and stories because I wanted to help dispell the myth that every woman experiences pain in every birth. I also believe that much of the pain is caused by fear. I have several articles on my site that deal with the fear/tension/pain syndrome.

>First, I think it dredges up the stereotype of so-called 'primitive people', especially women, being impervious to pain.

I don't think they're impervious to pain, but overall I believe tribal women had less painful births than most women do today. I'm not putting tribal cultures down when I say this, but psychologically they are/were in a less self-conscious state than we are. Consciousness evolves, and as it does, people become more aware of themselves as individuals. Their intellects also develop which is why we have computers and tribal people don't. But with self-consciousness comes fear, shame, and guilt. A woman in a tribal culture is not ashamed to walk around naked. She feels comfortable in her body in a way that most women in our culture don't. I believe this has a positive impact on her births.

>Goldsmith's reports of unassisted births amongst 'tribal' women are second-hand. Are 19th century Western travellers a reliable source of information on 'tribal' culture? These observers may have seen what they wanted to see, you know what I mean?

Personally they ring true to me. I have more sources I could have added to that page (Sheila Kitzinger, Michel Odent). Many anthropologists have written about the ease with which most tribal women gave birth. I've also spoken with a man who observed women giving birth in Korea 30 years ago. He said he saw several women give birth easily in the fields. Did some women in tribal cultures have problems? Yes, especially those who had more contact with Western cultures.

>Second, I'm uncomfortable with stories of women birthing one hour and returning to work the next....This women had fifteen children with very little support and no money so she had no choice but to do heavy housework and tend to the garden immediately before and after giving birth. Well, guess what? She lost four of those fifteen children! Birthing and working do not an ideal combination make.

Maybe birthing and being poor and overworked and having 15 children isn't an ideal combination. But this is an extreme case. A healthy, well-fed woman today can go back to doing what she wants to do as quickly as she wants to do it, provided she hasn't had a traumatic birth. I bounced back very quickly. But resuming my normal activities was my choice and it may not be for everyone.

>I think that this article does not make a compelling case for UC and I know that as an advocate you are in a position to pass on references to interested women.

I'm not trying to make a compelling case for UC. It's not something I feel I need to talk any woman into. It was a choice that felt right to me, and it makes sense to many people. As far as that little article, I posted it because I wanted to respond to that woman's comment that there is no historical presedence for giving birth alone. But as I've said before, I'm not advocating a return to tribal consciousness or tribal ways. As Michel Odent (French author and OB) says, we're not talking about taking a step backward. We're talking about taking a leap forward. Women can have better births by overcoming their fears and understanding how the mind affects the body.
Laura
http://ucbirth.com

[kama'aina mama]

lovinmama, your description of the shift in your mentality when your midwife arrived is fascinating. It reminded me of the book "Into Thin Air" by Jon Krakauer. He was on Mt Everest when all those people died a few years back. He talked about how some of those people may have lived if he and some other experienced climbers like him had been more active and attentive, but they were lulled into complacatience (sp) by the 'tour guide/ client' relationship. He saw things going wrong but said nothing... it wasn't 'his responsibility'. I think that is the big leap that women need to take, is we are responsible for our births!

[indigolilybear]

also, hygieia halfmoon's book "I can do this" (you have to call and order it from someplace specific) helped me a lot because in her other book, "Primal mothering in the modern world" she sounds so confident, etc. the other one, is her diary from her estatic birth and outlines the many many doubt and fears she had which was hugely comforting to me. check it out.

also i don't think anyone has mentioned mango mama's web site...that''s a great one too w/RH info.

re: prenatal scare.....we opted not to w/ds. w/dd it was such a nightmare that we felt okay w/it. i also personallly felt that if i was looking outside myself during preg. for that "you're okay" than i would need it in birthing. and also i really wanted to practice listening only to myself, my baby's tiny voice and my body. this was very very much a process to me and i feel that i worked much of the fear out....which made my labor very precipitous! i had maybe half an hour of active labor. he was born less than four hours after i woke up w/the first feelings of "maybe this is it". (in contrast dd's birth took place during around 24 hours)

it's usuallyl just a matter of deciding to do it, faking it til you make it so to speak, and then the universe will work with you! blessings everyone!

but yes, i am a not a super woman or something....you just decide to do it and then work on "untraining" yourself and all those horrible and weird imposed ideas about what women, birth and sex is all about!!

[fourlittlebirds]

My first two births were at home, attended by a midwife, and my third was a planned unassisted birth.

Though my body would have done just fine without a midwife those first two times, I wonder if my mind would have sabotaged my body with fear and doubt. I think sometimes it takes a long time to undo negative conditioning, and for most of us it hasn't happened before our first pregnancies!

Laura wrote: "Many women experience pain AND pleasure." Waving hand wildly in the air! That was me. My contractions felt like increasingly intense menstrual cramps, and the baby dropped before turning, so I had some fierce back labor (I was yodeling at the top of my lungs, making sounds that I couldn't make now to save my life.) However, as she emerged it was just the most gorgeous, rare, hugely sensual feeling. Intense sensation, yes. Ring-of-fire burning, yes. But still... it was so amazing that I often wish I could fully relive those last moments as she came down and through me. Part of the sadness for me of being done with childbearing is the remembrance of that feeling fading, and knowing that I will never feel it again.

Linda

[SpiralWoman]

Just wanted to chime in & thank you all for the discussion. I am newly PG, (14 days since my IUI) after a lengthy TTC (5 yrs off & on) that followed an unplanned (but rejoiced in) 1st pregnancy that lasted only 11 wks or so. I have a lot of knowlege about pregnancy & birth, modern obstetrics, etc, but no experience past those 11 wks. I do remember that my body did everything it did very well & without instructions from me (my thinking brain). At the time that was very assuring & I felt that the m/c prepped me for a full term PGnancy. Now 5yrs & several fertility specialists later, I have lost touch with some of that confidence! I am working hard now to regain a connection to my newly PG body that supports my confidence & quiets my doubt & fear filled mind. You can imagine the things floating thru my busybrain!
I have visited some of the UC sites & the stories really sustained me a few nites ago. I received a belief statement that goes: "I believe this baby will grow inside me until it is ready to be born, healthy, happy, & safe." Sometimes when I say it, it comes out "... healthy, happy, & free." I think the baby is already a UCer ;)
I do not know yet if UC will be for me this time. I benifitted greatly from what Sweetwater just said. She thought having attendants @ her first 2 births helped her mind develop confidence (thru experience rather than faith) that her body could do it. That makes sense & follows the way I have learned many lessons in my life.
Having conceived this pgnancy in a mildy high tech manner (what a crazy phrase, sigh), I am @ a crossroads with how to proceed with my prenatal care. I definitely do not want to end up flaggd "hi risk" (I am 35), but I also want to use & get what I need/want from the medical system. It was so uplifted when I got a call back from my Nurse Practicioner today that my beta hCG & Progesterone were "absolutely wonderful" and they "couldn't want anything better." They also threw the word "great" in there a couple of times. You have no idea what a big smile that gave me! I think I really felt truly happy for the 1st time since the + HPTs. Is that terrible to be so externally referenced? I mean, I have my BBT, up every day, but I just needed that independent corroboration & an encouraging word, I guess.
Well, this has truly rambled on long enough, just wanted you all to know how truly good it feels to have all these options.
blessings, maria

[fourlittlebirds]

Originally posted by SpiralWoman
She thought having attendants @ her first 2 births helped her mind develop confidence (thru experience rather than faith) that her body could do it.

Well... sort of. ;) What I meant to say was that the benefit of having what I perceived to be a "safety net" might have, for those specific births, outweighed the negative aspects of the midwives' presence and actions. The attendants themselves did not do anything special to help me gain confidence for future births. Nor did my body's ability to give birth in itself quell my fears, because after all, every pregnancy and labor is different, and sometimes complicated births follow easy ones.

For me, my decision to give birth alone was partly about looking back on my births and seeing how the midwives' presence actually hindered my labors. It was also about being compelled by my dissatisfaction with those births to do research on birth; which led me to the realization that birth is in fact like any other involuntary bodily function: given a healthy mind and body, the body simply does not malfunction -- it's illogical. When in good emotional and physical health and in a secure, loving environment, I've never needed help breathing, or pumping blood through my veins, maintaining healthy sleep/wake cycles, becoming aroused enough to make love comfortably and enjoyably, or eliminating waste from my body. All of these are biochemically regulated processes. Birth is no different.

Understanding that is what gave me the confidence to birth alone.

But, you know, none of that would have occurred to me to think about unless I had first had the experience of two attended births, because unfortunately unlike Laura I did not have a philosophical husband and access to some radical books. ;) (Not that one needs those things specifically, but you know what I'm saying, there has to be some initial prompt that sets the lightbulb off in the head.) I couldn't start undoing the conditioning until I knew I had something to undo in the first place; and I didn't know that I had something to undo until I had the experience to see with my own heart the reality of attended births, which turned out to be very different from the beautiful birthing myths I had grown up with.

[indigolilybear]

i've been looking for you, sweetwater, on all these freebirth posts!! i'm glad you're back.

anyway, just wanted to add my .02.
we actually read a great article re: freebirth while preg. w/baby one by Jeannine Parvati Baker in the sisters on a journey compilation ( a compilation of midwive's stories)
hubbie and i looked at each other, and it rang some bells but mostly *I* did not feel ready to progress alone w/it. DH even had dreams where we did not call hte midwives,etc. and said that during the birth, he just wanted everyone to leave.

anyway, so i did it and am glad i did it w/midwives. i needed to do it that way because i just needed to get one under my belt. (no pun intended :D ) i was too scared to brave the "underworld" of birth by myself....and it was only through this experience that i realized that really, no one could help me. i would have never believed this had i not birthed w/my "help-team" of fam, and midwives. you birth alone, w/your baby, and no one else can do it for you.

I *wish* I had been ready to freebirth dd, but i wasn't. however, it was her wonderful birth that gave me the stepping stone to build on....albeit a lot of "birth baggage" to work through too! It was still scary and all but I then knew what i had to work w/.

I spent most of the 2.7 yrs. after dd's birth processing, reading, doing personal "work" all in preparation for what i knew would be our next baby, our freeborn baby. I really wanted it....and i had to work hard at not working hard, if you KWIM? LOL. just let your body do the work. or as my main affirmation went "I believe in my body's ability to birth this baby easily, painlessly and pleasurably!"

[k'smami]

I've been reading about UC for over ten months now. In that time I've spent a lot of time dealing with my fears surrounding birth. I can honestly say that right now, I am not afraid. That is not to say that I won't experience fear later on and that I may need to work through, but it means that I no longer fear birth.

When I had a hospital birth with my Ds, the one emotion that stood out in my mind was not fear, but ANGER- anger that these nurses would not allow me to drink water, anger that I was essentially duped into taking drugs because they continously refused to accept my refusals for them until I finally gave in. I hated their control and I decided that I would not be at anyone's mercy but my own or my child's for birth again. And sure, a midwife will probably be less controlling but as I read about people and their midwives on the internet, I find that I would still be influenced by someone else's perceptions/needs surrounding my birth so I'd rather not take that risk.

[SpiralWoman]

thanks for clarifying your experience with your attended births for me. It helps me to understand. I am still a long way from making my decisions about how I will birth, but I know it will be a thoughtful process. If I could figure out how to do that quote thing you all do so well I wouldn't have paraphrased you like that.;)
blessings, Maria

[fourlittlebirds]

:wave Indigo Lily Bear! Unfortunately I'm not really "back" -- I'm on a friend's line, still don't have internet access myself. I miss talking about my favorite subject with you all!

Maria, no problem! In a forum where misunderstandings can be so easy, it's actually good for us to keep saying " I hear you saying this" -- if you hadn't, I wouldn't have had the chance to elaborate, which I LOVE to do. ;)

[miriam]

Dearest Mothering Friends:

;) I am the product of an unassisted homebirth.

That was 1954. My Father delivered me as well as seven of the next eight. He was a Doctor of Chiropractic, but I do believe the law allowed him to do something like that as a practice of home methods, i.e., a family member can treat another family member as a matter of course. Also, childbirth is not a disease, so what is to be treated anyway.

I was told that my mom had placental problems, and one of my Father's cohorts showed him how to help my mom deliver the placenta, which he did each time. My mom went to the hospital for #5 who was breech (1961) and she was released the same day. It was Mother's Day.

I do not know if the experience "empowered" my mom.

I do know that it did not hold the marriage together. They were divorced after nine children and many years of marriage. My mom left my Father for another man.

Well, maybe it did "empower" my mom.

[Dodo]

I am really enjoying all of your responses.

Indigolilybear, I guess I am doing my "processing" right now so that I will be prepared to birth another child in the future. I had planned on adopting a warrior approach, but, after reading up on UC, I am leaning towards a more confident, accepting attitude.

I thought that I had a great birth experience - no meds, very little intervention, home the same day - with my dd, who was born almost a year ago, but my labour was long and I screamed through the whole thing. Throughout the pregnancy, I could only think of the birth with fear. I don't want to be that way again, and, really, I don't think I will be.

With my first, I had a hard time transitioning from free-and-easy single gal to mother, even though I very much wanted to be a mom. I spent a lot of time focussing on that transition and too little focussing on how I'd like to approach labour and delivery. Maybe I am being too critical. I had to do what I had to do!

I am jealous of women who were confident enough to give birth unassisted, particularly with their first, because it suggests to me that they were extremely confident about themselves as mothers and very comfortable with the birth process. Is that weird? I constantly have to remind myself that other peoples' successes aren't my losses!

[fourlittlebirds]

Originally posted by miriam
I do know that it did not hold the marriage together.

There are some books on unassisted birth that talk as if UC is a vital key in cementing the marital relationship. I think the reality is more that husband/wife birth provides the opportunity for a special kind of experience that can deeply affect the relationship. Like with anything else -- making love, for instance, or taking marriage vows for that matter -- it's all in what you make of it, right?

[miriam]

dearest friends:

my parents first relationship was doctor/patient. It is a relationship that outlasted the marriage, because she still used him as her doctor after the divorce. ( his attorney told him not to continue this arrangement - i told him also, but he would not listen to me)

i thought it was bizarre.

however i merely point it out to show that having unassisted homebirths w/ dh around does not guarantee the future of any kind of marital bliss.

i have gathered from the experience what i can as the oldest of nine - that childbirth is normal and natural, not requiring hospitalization, surgery, drugs, etc., in most cases.

i did use a midwife. i am brave but not all that brave. i know my limits.

[indigolilybear]

as for the birth-strengthening-relationships thing. i agree, it is what you make of it though i cannot come up w/too many scenarios where two mature, loving and commited adults who *agree* to do this would not strengthened by it.

i think it is a huge statement of faith adn trust in each ohter and *personally* feel it has made a huge difference in our relationship. my DH has said that he feels much more attracted to me sexually since our freebirth and also is very impressed w/me after watching me birth ds. dd...it's hard to say why exactly it was different and it wasn't *horrible* but he was definetly relegated to secondary player. and i don't believe that he really received the "orgasmic, oxytocin energy bond" that was due him. neither did the midwives really....but dd definitely did!! :love

but the varieties of situations out there are as varied as the people are.....LOL

[Lakin24]

Just adding my two cents...

I am pregnant and we are planning an unassisted HBAC this fall. I had an extremely medically managed pregnancy with our daughter that culminated in a totally unnecessary c-section at 37 weeks for "failure to progress". I was never comfortable with my medical care and I have a lifelong fear of doctors and hospitals anyway. This birth did not help matters much.

My husband and I decided that this birth would be as different as we could make it. We have done our own basic prenatal care (in so much as we count baby's movements and occasionally measure fundal height). We have no due date, we don't even have a due month... I was nursing my daughter when we conceived so I did not have a cycle. All we know is it was sometime from January to April when we happened to test and it was positive. We're not worried, I am healthy, baby is active, we are educated, prepared and definitely well-read on the subject. :)

The biggest problem we've had is with family and friends wanting to know when EXACTLY are we due and what did my doctor say at our appointment and when do I go for my ultrasounds. @@ We fob them off and just lie to some....... it wouldn't do them any good to know what we're planning and we frankly don't need the stress of their concern.

[miriam]

Dear Lakin24:

I am totally supportive of what you are planning.

I hope it works out for you, and that the experience heals you and your dh.

What a nice family you will have.

[fourlittlebirds]

Slowly working throught this thread... ;)

Originally posted by Dodo
First, I think it dredges up the stereotype of so-called 'primitive people', especially women, being impervious to pain. [snip] These observers may have seen what they wanted to see, you know what I mean?

The problem there, I think, is with the idea that "primitive" people are a different sort of animal from people living in industrialized societies. The idea that societal conditioning can affect how anything (including pain) is approached and experienced in itself is sound.

But certainly they were interpreting what they were seeing from the basis of their own conditioning, which made it inconceivable to them that anyone could experience pain and not react in a certain negative way to it. The other possibility, of course, is that those women they observed really weren't in pain. Painless birth, or birth in which the pain is not severe enough to cry out, or even pleasurable birth is possible; I know of many women, including myself, who have experienced this, and this even in a society that tells them from childhood that birth is dreadful! Just imagine how many more women would be able to avoid great suffering in a society that taught them that birth was (or could be) at base an enjoyable experience, and that advocated secure, unstressful environments for them to give birth in, essentially obliterating the fear-pain cycle.

Second, I'm uncomfortable with stories of women birthing one hour and returning to work the next. [snip] Birthing and working do not an ideal combination make.

It's true that given extreme physical effort or trauma, the body needs time to rest so that it can recover. This is common sense. On the other hand, not all birth takes such a toll on the body that the mother must be confined to bed for days or weeks. In our "civilized" society, mothers are put through all sorts of unnecessary stresses when giving birth. In a "primitive" society, it is unlikely that a woman will be subjected to the emotional and physical stress that characterizes most managed births, that her body will be cut or bruised or expected to perform as if birth is an athletic event. I've had both kinds of births -- and I can tell you with all honesty that my postpartum experiences were vastly different. After the managed birth I hobbled around like an old lady for weeks. After my unhindered births I felt physically very whole and well and was easily able to do basic household work. This from a woman who is extremely sedentary and pampered -- it makes me wonder how I would have felt after those births if I was physically fit and hardy!

[k'smami]

ITA sweetwater. Dh's grandmother birthed 13 children. She told me that after her first birth she was wiped out and had 40 days of rest. By her 13th, she was birthing unassisted and within the hour she was back at work. I'm sure part of the reason she was back at work was because she had to but she most certainly stresses that those births did not take a toll on her the way her first did.

[Lakin24]

Thank you Miriam! :D

[indigolilybear]

yes, heather!! what a great experience for you guys! it's empowering for me even to hear about! i'd love to hear about the birth when it happens!
many blessings.

[Lakin24]

Thank you Indigo Lily Bear and I definitely will post about the birth whenever it happens. I am having what "feels" like very early labor (mild contractions on and off and a feeling that I need to prepare my nest) but since I've never had the opportunity to go into labor I am not exactly sure. We'll just see what we see I suppose.

[Sofiamomma]

I am due 3/7 and am very seriously considering unassisted birth this time. I find this discussion very intriguing! I had a homebirth with a midwife last time and it was a very lovely experience. I really wanted to labor alone, which I did for the first 12 hours, but not birth alone. This time I'm feeling like I want to birth alone. My midwife last time was a very good friend and it was easy to feel bonded with her. Still, I feel as though her presence may have affected how well I listened to my body. I think that what I thought other people's expectations were colored my responses.

Unfortunately, I have Type II diabetes this time and take insulin to keep my blood sugars normal. It means I have no choice but to get prenatal care. I did find a midwife that has agreed to attend me at home, for which I am very grateful, but I'm also seeing an OB. My original plan was to tell the OB that the midwife is a doula and that I will labor at home as long as possible, and then, "oops!" not make it to the hospital in time. Now, I'm feeling more and more like I don't want to call anybody.

I feel like the fact that I have diabetes gives everyone even more of an excuse to look for trouble and I have tons of fears about getting caught in the medical model snowball. I feel so relaxed when I imagine myself giving birth alone and the fears all melt away. Am I crazy to think it's okay to do this alone with my condition? I have half a mind to let the midwife go, but I'd still have to see the docs in order to get the insulin that is essential to this little one's health. What difficulties, if any, will I encounter when I let the doctors and hospital know I've "accidentally" delivered at home? Will there be any legal implications? Will they call DCS on me? Will I be able to get a birth certificate? These are the questions that plague me. At this point, I'm just keeping everybody, so I can choose what I feel most comfortable with when the time comes, and will have help should I need it. Or am I sabotaging myself by leaving my options open?

P.S. I am a labor and delivery nurse at the hospital where my OB practices and I have attended homebirths as both an assistant, and as the primary midwife, in the past. So I know a little more than the average bear. Of course, that may be part of my problem!!

[fourlittlebirds]

Sofiamomma, your experience sounds a lot like mine. My second birth was everything I hoped for. I labored alone for the first eleven hours, then the midwife was there for the last two hours. And she was wonderful, very respectful. Let me run the show. Even so, I felt a desire to birth alone, and it became stronger the closer I got to my third birth. I didn't understand what it was about so much as I *felt* it should be that way -- it was only later, after the birth, that I really began to understand why I had felt that way.

Sofiamomma wrote: Still, I feel as though her presence may have affected how well I listened to my body. I think that what I thought other people's expectations were colored my responses. I write: Of course. Our minds and bodies are *always* affected by environment and the presence of others -- it's all just a matter of degree.

Now about your concerns: precipitous births happen -- they're not so uncommon that anyone would immediately assume that you'd done it on purpose. But if you do not call 911 and then take the baby into the hospital for a checkup, I imagine there'd be some suspicion. Legally, I don't believe there is anything they could do to *you*, but in some states anyone else who is at the birth can be charged with practicing medicine without a license. The birth certificate shouldn't be a problem, since you have had prenatal care, proof that you were pregnant and didn't steal the baby.

If you claim a precipitous birth and do *not* bring the baby in -- the doctor could call the state children's services agency, and yes, they could make trouble for you (although it's rare that a baby is actually taken away in such a case.)

It's a tough call. Ideally, you would find someone sympathetic to your plans, or least to the idea in itself. But I know that's easier said than done.

You could call your doctor immediately after the birth, explain that the baby came almost before you knew what was happening, that the placenta is out, no bleeding, that the baby is doing great (you should know, after all, being an L&D nurse,) and that you do not want to stress him with the trip to the hospital at this time, and that you will now make an appointment to see a pediatrician. I really don't think there's anything the doctor could do at that point. He might insist that you come in immediately, at which point I guess you'd have to ask him what would happen if you didn't. As a medical professional to another medical professional, he might be less likely to feel the need to interfere.

You might also want to retain a lawyer beforehand, just in case anyone starts threatening you.

As for the diabetes, as far as I know, complications or difficulties of a certain sort are more likely, but not a given. If you are comfortable with your health and your ability to monitor it, I imagine the risk would be relatively low.

[k'smami]

Hi Sofiamama,

The only state that has issues with legality pertaining to UC is Nebraska. A father is charged with a misdemeanor if he catches his baby.

http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/legal.htm

Do some research about your state and find out what needs to happen in order for you to obtain a birth certificate. It should set your mind at ease a little.

[Sofiamomma]

Thanks so much! I did check out Laura's website and there was some info on obtaining a birth certificate in Missouri. It didn't sound too difficult, so that made me feel better. I'm guessing the nurses I work with will not be surprised if I "precip" at home. They know I'm planning to labor at home with a "doula" as long as possible. One of them has even said, "You're going to have this baby at home, aren't you?" I just smiled and said I wouldn't be sad if I did. Sweetwater, I liked your suggestion about calling to say I'd had the baby, everything's fine and not wanting the stress of coming in. I can see her (my OB) being all right with that. I'm just wondering what the legal implications for *her* will be if i don't come in. That in and of itself may cause her to insist. At my next appt, I'll mention the doula and my plans to labor at home and see what kind of response I get from. Maybe she'll mention what she'd prefer if I don't make it in time. She's been pretty on the ball so far about what she thinks I'll want. For instance, "Oh you don't want this script for prenatal vitamins, do you?" "You probably don't want the triple screen", etc.

[k'smami]

I highly doubt there will be legal implications for her if you choose not to go to the hospital. That is something that is out of her control. I think though that there may be legal implications if she knows of you plans and doesn't try to dissuade you from them.

Here's the exact law for getting a birth certificate in MO

http://pages.ivillage.com/unassistedchildbirth/misc/bclaws/mo.html

[Sofiamomma]

That's exactly why I'm not tellin' her! :D

[candiland]

I just wanted to write that I love the idea of UC... but after my two experiences, I don't think I'd have the confidence to do it. With #1, I tore pretty badly (but refused stitches). I toyed around with the idea of UC when prego with #2, but went with the same midwife and another homebirth. #2 was born blue and floppy and needed mouth-to-mouth and an oxygen tank to get him to come around. Then I began bleeding uncontrollably and needed Arnica, methargin, and Pitocin, as well as the manual removal of blood clots, before we got it under control. Had the midwife not been there, I probably would have gone to the hospital, kwim? And, just for the record, my midwife is a CPM and is TOTALLY hands off. I labored by myself with only DH present; she came in during pushing and sat and watched quietly and never did anything to induce the bleeding, such as cord traction or fundus fiddling. It was just one of those things......

[indigolilybear]

just an aside, and DEFINITELY NOT meant as an attack, candiland, but IMO the thing w/freebirth is that you and your body react differently w/o anyone there, even if they are hands off and all. when i talked to jeannine parvati baker about my birth w/ dd, assisted at home, she said that the tendency is when there is someone at your birth, to give them something to do. (I threatened to hemorrage, baby born floppy, etc at dd's birth) NOT that things like that *can't* happen at a freebirth, but just that the whole dynamic is different.

w/ds i was requesting herbs calmly when i saw lot of blood, was not at all disoriented, phased post-birth etc because I HAD to be like that. it was *all* my responsibility.

again totally not meant as a questioning of your experience, but just thought i'd add that thought to the discussion because i actually get thtat sort of question a lot from people. "well, w/ my kid, she got stuck..and what would you do? etc". IMO, if you KNOW no one is acting as a "rescuer" you need less "rescuing". again, just MHO
:)

[k'smami]

Eating some placenta is reported to do wonders for hemmoraging. Just pointing it out in case anyone encounters that doing UC.

[Sofiamomma]

I have a few more questions, if that's okay. I'll just give a little more background info first.

I work at a community hospital as an L&D nurse. My OB works there, too. She and I had a rocky start as colleagues, but we are getting along much better now. I've been very happy with her as a care provider.

I have done homebirths in the past, with Homefirst, and with midwives. I was working on my CPM, but then decided to focus on being a mama.

My daughter was born at home almost 6 years ago. I am a single mom by choice by donor insemination. The midwife I was apprenticing with is also a good friend and she helped me with the insem, did my prenatal care, and attended my birth. My birth was wonderful, but there are still some things I wish I'd done differently. She lives halfway across the country now.

About two years ago I developed Type II diabetes, which was diet and exercise controlled, but not well enough for a pregnancy, so I went on medication prior to conception. I searched high and low for a midwife willing to attend me at home. I found one, but for a number of reasons am not totally comfortable with her and don't see myself calling her for the birth.

I go to an endocrinologist to manage the diabetes, and am also seeing an OB at the midwife's request, so I'll have backup if I need and because I'm "high risk".

I am really leaning toward undisturbed birth. My mother was my doula last time, and is normally very supportive of homebirth. She would like me to deliver in the hospital because of the diabetes, but has said she would support me at home if I "don't come crying to her if something goes wrong."

I got pregnant without assistance this time, meaning I did the insemination myself. I can visualize myself giving birth totally alone (I picture it being the middle of the night and my daughter is asleep). Many of you are saying you will have your dh present. What about your kids? Am I crazy to think I can do this all by myself? Should I fire the midwife? How does one go about that, without doing too much damage? Do I have a right to have the fees I've already paid refunded? And what about the doctors, should I keep seeing them? Would they cancel my insulin prescripitons if I stopped going to them? (I have enough refills to last me thru the pregnancy and enough medical know how to self adjust my insulin) Is keeping them "just in case" leaving me open to needing them? I'm actually really more concerned about the politics of all this than anything else. If I didn't have to have contact with any of these people afterwards, didn't have other relationships with them, it would be easier. I'm just really not sure how to handle telling the OB, in particular, that I had the baby at home and am not coming in to get checked. I don't know how she'll react. I also wouldn't know how to handle telling her I wasn't coming to her for prenatal care, if I decided to do that.

Thanks for listening. I'd appreciate hearing any opinions anyone has.

[Kirsten]

Wow, this thread is really blowing my mind! I can understand what is being said pro-unassisted but am sure it is not for me (though that is what I said about homebirth too but am now planning on for next time after two good natural births, second one out of hospital). I like having someone who has "been there, done that" re: birth. I know that I have BTDT twice too but my midwife has assisted at hundreds of births. She was wonderful, respectful and hands off unless I called her to help. Dh and I grew much closer through him being my primary support. He caught dd2. :)
So maybe I will change my mind re: unassisted (though it seems impossible to me now) and I'll be posting here with baby #4! I guess you never know. But in any case, I would not think that completely unassisted would be good - no other adult there at all. I do believe that the presence of others whom you do not implicitly trust can make you nervous, tense, feel more pain, be inhibited in pushing, etc. but I do not believe that the mere fact that they are there could cause severe complications that would not have happened otherwise. They still would have happened; you just would have to deal with the consequences alone. And maybe I am just believing the hype but I would not feel comfortable delivering a breech baby, especially footling, at home. That is just me. I think it is amazing that anyone has that much confidence. I thought I was confident but you guys put me to shame! :)
As far as prenatal care, with dd2 I had my belly measured, peed on the stick, and blood pressure checked. No weight, only very few blood tests, no triple screen, etc. I was good with that and would probably do it again. I really enjoyed meeting with the midwife during pregnancy. I think it depends a lot on the relationship you have with your midwife. If it is not good, then I can see where none is better than bad.
Interesting topic - I hope I have not offended anyone. Just when I think I have heard all the alternative stuff, along comes something new that blows my socks off! Dh did not even want a midwife for our first pregnancy (though we did have one - he wanted a doctor). I am still in the process of selling him on homebirth with our beloved midwife next time. If I mentioned unassisted I think he would blow his top. I will have to bring it up to him just to see what he thinks. After our Bradley classes he told me he thought he could catch the baby if we didn't make it the hospital (first dd).
Kirsten

[fourlittlebirds]

Originally posted by candiland
#2 was born blue and floppy and needed mouth-to-mouth and an oxygen tank to get him to come around. Then I began bleeding uncontrollably and needed Arnica, methargin, and Pitocin, as well as the manual removal of blood clots, before we got it under control. Had the midwife not been there, I probably would have gone to the hospital, kwim? And, just for the record, my midwife is a CPM and is TOTALLY hands off.

Sometimes we aren't able (for whatever reason) to foresee what it is that is going to cause complications, and sometimes don't even have a clear picture even after the fact. Who is that fellow, a famous competitive long-distance runner -- despite being fantastically healthy, he keeled over at age 35 of a heart attack. His heart couldn't take the strain of such extreme exertion. The conclusion we draw in such a case, however, is not that running itself is inherently dangerous.

For those who are considering UC, this is definitely something they have to consider: knowing that a midwife might be able to successfully deal with something at home that otherwise might necessitate a trip to the hospital. And sometimes they simply feel that the potential benefits of UC for them and their babies outweigh the unpleasantness of having to deal with the hospital, if it should come to that. Not everybody is comfortable with that perspective, but not everybody has to be. I'm not comfortable with hospital birth, for instance, but I don't have to be for it to be the right decision for someone else.

[fourlittlebirds]

Originally posted by Sofiamomma
I am really leaning toward undisturbed birth. My mother was my doula last time, and is normally very supportive of homebirth. She would like me to deliver in the hospital because of the diabetes, but has said she would support me at home if I "don't come crying to her if something goes wrong."

How do you feel about this? If it were me, I think I would not be comfortable having someone with this attitude be a doula for me.

Am I crazy to think I can do this all by myself?

I guess I'm confused about what you're asking here -- do you mean considering your medical condition, or do you mean the actual process of giving birth? I don't know what kind of monitoring your medical condition requires, or whether you can do it yourself. But as for the mechanics of labor and birth -- yes, of course you can do it by yourself. The question is whether you want to.

Should I fire the midwife? How does one go about that, without doing too much damage? Do I have a right to have the fees I've already paid refunded?

Damage in what way? As for the fees, it depends. If you are far along enough in your pregnancy that she couldn't get another client to take your spot, I would say that you don't have a right to your money back.

And what about the doctors, should I keep seeing them? [snip]I'm actually really more concerned about the politics of all this than anything else.

There is the possibility that the doctor could make a bit of trouble for you -- you just have to ask yourself if it's worth it to risk that, right? Unfortunately you're the only one who can decide that!

[Sofiamomma]

I mean considering my "medical condition" (Yuck, I hate saying that!). I absolutely feel comfortable giving birth on my own and there's no question that I want to. I'm also wanting opinions on doing it without *any*one else there, such as a husband, which I don't have.

When I say damage I'm talking about "I should be a 'good girl' and not hurt anyone's feelings", "but she needs the money, is that bad karma to pull out now?" kind of damage. I am only 16 weeks and have only seen her 3 times. I've pretty much decided not to invest anymore (time, energy, money, emotions) in something that my gut is telling me is not a good thing. When I have a midwife practice, I plan to keep an account with at least the amount of one fee in it, in the event that someone transfers out of my care, and/or I don't attend the labor and/or birth (except in the case of a precip), then I can refund them, minus prorated rates for prenatal care. These are my principles though, and I was just wondering what others thought. I guess I'm not sure what there being time to find someone else to take my "spot" has to do with anything. Don't we tell women all the time that it's never to late to transfer care. I would think that that applies to midwives, too! I can understand her needing to be compensated for the time she's already given me (she does have a stipulation in her contract that a certain portion is non-refundable), and of course I feel I should, but I would think the bulk of the fee is for attending the birth. JMO and BTW, I realize I *did* ask, so it's only fair I should get an answer!

And I realize that ultimately I am the only one who can make these decisions. I'm just really in turmoil right now, struggling with medical, political, social, and support issues. It is tremendously difficult to find any sort of peace about birth, about being a mother again, about pregnancy, with all this boiling around inside me. I feel like I can't concentrate on what's *really* important, because I'm having to deal with all this crap. I also feel like I'm being punished somehow for not taking better care of myself in my life previously. What I was hoping for was to be able to bounce some of this stuff off people who have had or are also considering UC, possibly even get some reassurance.

[candiland]

Sweetwater - I totally agree with what you said.
Indigolilybear - Maybe simply having the midwife present "made" these things happen. Or maybe it was a subconcious fear of mine that caused the hemmorhaging. Or maybe it was Fate or the Universe. Who really knows. All I know is, Sophiamomma, that if you plan a UC, root out all subconcious fears and tensions. Meditate, use positive visualization of a healthy body, healthy baby, and healthy birth. If it makes you more comfortable, learn everything you possibly can about emergency childbirth procedures IN THE EVENT that a complication arises. That way, you will have confidence, and not fear, in knowing that you can deal with any issues that may arise that are out of your control. As for your docs... they may support you, they may not. They may learn of your plans and say, no way!, no lawsuits for me. You can give a few white lies to keep their services, but would that harm you, karma-wise? Who knows. And don't worry about "hurting" your midwife. I don't think that doing what you feel is best for your body and baby will give you bad karma! You may feel guilty, but that isn't a karma issue. That's a personal dynamic, not a Universal one. I guess what I'm saying is, only your Inner Self holds the answers you are looking for. Everyone else that is giving advice is giving it based on personal beliefs, experiences, and ideals. Does that make any of our Truths your Truth? Probably not. Go with your gut and what your Truth is telling you. Try to rid yourself of your fear.... if that means going to the hospital, great. If that means doing UC, that's great, too. Only you know You!

[indigolilybear]

candiland--i in no way meant to insinuate that the MW made your complications happen, etc. only trying to point out that sometimes previous births etc aren't *necessarily* cause to rule out a UC for anyone who is interested. (again, not judging *your* personal decision not do one either) this is a very complicated issue and i no way meant to judge your situation or anything else related to you. it just made me think about the *issue* that often comes up which is past births for people....or possible complicationsthey hear about. KWIM?

and sweetwater, thank you for ferreting out another issue w/this which is that you *do* have to deal w/thinking about complications taht may have been able to be taken care of by a MW etc and making that choice beforehand, not knowing what the birth holds in store for you.

i just thought i'd pass on my thoughts re: this very complicated topic and information that was given to me that was helpful and rang true to me. :) and again, this was something i "theorized" about before our freebirth and found was true in our case.

[candiland]

this is a very complicated issue and i no way meant to judge your situation or anything else related to you
I never took it that way;) I was just saying that I understand your theories. I share the same theories that you do. I was just taking it a bit farther, because during my second pregnancy I kept thinking about hemmorhage for some reason. I don't think I'll ever know if it was a premonition or a fear that gathered enough energy and strength over time to come true, kwim?

[SpiralWoman]

I have a theoretical/philosphical question about this. I have never had a baby, so I am really interested in the choices I have before me, I feel like I can choose whatever is right for me, which is an awesome good feeling.

So, about birthing scenarios, I have kind of had this picture of me surrounded by women bringing me love & support while I do the birthing. Birthing alone somehow sounds sad to me in this context. Although I totally respond to the individual responsibility angle & I am very skeptical of how much the medical model of birth is such a part of our modern pysches, & I feel that UC may be a very reliable way of breaking that client-patient power dynamic that is so engrained in us. But, I would like to think that having other safe women with me will allow me to have an even more undisturbed birth. That I will feel a ring of protection around me that allows me to let go even more & go even deeper into letting my body birth. That with them there I will not have to be "on guard" of my surroundings. I suppose that with UC, my DH iwould be there guard the perimeter or something, but I think he's going to be going thru his own thing & may need to take care of that, I don't know.

I freely admit that maybe my circle of women is just a fantasy. I mean: my mother (the ex labor & delivery nurse/lamaze teacher-yikes), my sister (who had her 2nd at home), my yoga teacher, & the midwife & whoever she brings? So everybody would be an authority of some kind. Maybe it is safer to be alone with just my issues than inviting everybody else's issues in, too. But, I really like to be the center of attention, & if I am alone, who will pamper me? ah-hah! See how birth is about learning about yourself :D

So, I just wondered what you all thought about my "circle of women" theory of birth & how you would reconcile the really outstanding principles in UC with this idea of birthing.
blessings, maria

[laurashanley]

Maria wrote:
>So, about birthing scenarios, I have kind of had this picture of me surrounded by women bringing me love & support while I do the birthing. Birthing alone somehow sounds sad to me in this context.

Actually, there's really no such thing as birthing "alone." Your baby will be right there with you. I don't believe that babies are simply being pulled or pushed through birth. I believe they are consciously participating. I've heard many women say they feel their babies guided them through birth and I think this is true. But sometimes when we're surrounded by a lot of people, we're unable to tune into our babies the way we can when we're alone. I also believe we have inner guidance - God, Goddess, the larger consciousness, spirit guides, etc. So even though I have given birth "alone" several times, I've never felt lonely, and certainly I've never felt sad. In fact, I've felt positively blissful - which is probably why I'm still writing about birth all these years later.

>But, I would like to think that having other safe women with me will allow me to have an even more undisturbed birth. That I will feel a ring of protection around me that allows me to let go even more & go even deeper into letting my body birth.

I've heard other women say this but I don't really understand it. What do you feel you need protecting from? If you TRULY BELIEVE that birth is safe, why do you need protection? I've heard many midwives refer to themselves as the guardians of birth, but I've never understood who they are guarding the woman from. Are people going to come knocking on your door when you're giving birth? From reading thousands of birth stories over the years, I honestly feel that much of the time, the only people women need protection from are the people who are supposedly protecting them - i.e. birth attendants.

>I freely admit that maybe my circle of women is just a fantasy.

I'm sure there are many women who do feel that sense of comradery when they're surrounded by other women during birth. I know I enjoyed having friends at my first birth (although in my case they were all men - my husband, a film maker, and 3 of our male friends). But with subsequent births, I never felt the need to have people there. I truly enjoyed being alone with my babies. There was an intimacy there that I don't think I would have experienced if I hadn't been "alone."
Laura
http://ucbirth.com/joy.htm (one of my solo births)

[Kirsten]

Maria,
I think your "circle of women" theory could work for you. Are all of those people very warm, calm, supportive women? Do you have ANY issues with any of them? If so, I would think about that as it is so crucial to feel completely comfortable. If your mom or sister or yoga teacher or anyone there has differing beliefs about birth than you do, I would not include them if it were me. We took Bradley classes and they taught us to have as few people as possible there - that subconciously the birthing woman feels/acts differently being "watched". Sited examples of animals going off by themselves to birth. That said, I did not have unassisted childbirth. At our births, I was assisted by my husband (primarily) and a midwife with assistant. This was perfect for me, though I was thrilled and honored to have been at two of my friends births. One thing I would bring up for you to consider - having your husband be your primary support is an incredible bonding for the two of you - and for him to the baby. If you have your mom, sister, etc. there, will your dh be less likely to be your "primary" support? If it is just him and a very "give you your space unless needed" approach midwife, he will step up and be all that you need. I cannot really explain the depth of what this did for my and dh's relationship.
Good luck with whatever you decide. Only you know what is best for you - I am just tossing out ideas for you. :)
Kirsten

[fourlittlebirds]

Originally posted by Sofiamomma
"I'm also wanting opinions on doing it without *any*one else there, such as a husband, which I don't have." I think what kind of support is right for you (if any) really just depends on your personality and your needs. For my second birth, I labored alone for most of it and LOVED it. This last time it was a long and boring labor, and I really wanted some company during the labor, though not for the birth itself. Actually, I didn't know what I would need up until I was right in it -- and I guess that's the ideal, for your support system to be such that you have ultimate flexibility.

"When I say damage I'm talking about "I should be a 'good girl' and not hurt anyone's feelings", "but she needs the money, is that bad karma to pull out now?" kind of damage." Ah. Well, if it were me, I would think it would be worse karma all around to continue on doing something that wasn't right, you know? As for her feelings, it's not personal, right? If it was personal, that would of course be all the more reason to pull out, but if it's not, well, there's no reason for her to be hurt. I know what you mean, though, it's easier to keep playing the good girl (I know all about that, believe me,) than to just be honest and true. But in the long run it's sure a lot more painful.

"I am only 16 weeks and have only seen her 3 times." Oh yeah, definitely, you owe her for the three prenatals, but that's it. (Or two, if the first meeting was an interview.) I didn't even start my midwifery care until well into my second trimester, I think it's fairly common to transfer care around that time.

"I guess I'm not sure what there being time to find someone else to take my "spot" has to do with anything." Just my opinion, of course, but to me it is about ethics and intentions. (Hypothetically,) if you held onto the midwife until late in the pregnancy because you couldn't make up your mind whether you actually wanted a midwife or not, and then you dropped her, that would be unfair to her because she would be losing money that she could have made with another client who did fully intend to use her services. Does that make any more sense? It would be a different matter if you were upfront with her about the possibility that you would drop her late in the pregnancy, then she could decide whether it was worth it to her to take you as a client for that time slot rather than someone else. This all hinges, of course, on the assumption that the midwife is allowing spacing between clients so that due dates are less likely to overlap. If she's the sort of midwife that doesn't bother about that sort of thing, well then it's a moot point.

"It is tremendously difficult to find any sort of peace about birth, about being a mother again, about pregnancy, with all this boiling around inside me. I feel like I can't concentrate on what's *really* important, because I'm having to deal with all this crap." You're right, and I sympathize. I remember the wonderful calm I felt when I first decided to fire my OB, and then later when I decided to go unassisted. I know that that calm affected my pregnancy and labor, and that is no small thing.

"What I was hoping for was to be able to bounce some of this stuff off people who have had or are also considering UC, possibly even get some reassurance." Have you checked out the CBirth e-list at Yahoogroups? I'm absolutely no help as far as medical issues or care provider issues, because I didn't have any (not that I didn't have issues, just that those weren't among them), but chances are somebody at CBirth has! Sorry to not be of more help, you are in a tough situation and I wish there was an easy answer we could give you!

[fourlittlebirds]

The important thing here is to know yourself, and be honest with yourself. Your vision, Maria, is totally valid if it feels right to you, if it brings you strength and calm and allows you to go deep. To me, it’s a foreign concept. There are no women that I feel so close to that I can imagine being able to let go totally with them around. I mean, I know this is literally not possible for me. Partly this is because I consider birth to be (among other things) on my sexual continuum, and that’s not something I can easily share with someone else. But that’s me.

Also, as Laura touched on, when alone I felt very deeply connected to the baby in a way that I hadn’t with women friends present. There was a part of my mind that was focused, at all times, on the fact that they were there. I was open, their energy touched me, and I resented it because it interfered with and obscured my connection to my body and my baby.

[indigolilybear]

Maria--your fantasies resonate w/me. here is my opinion:;)
while i really mourned the prenatal care given to me during baby one's preg., it ultimately was a good thing for me to *not* have anyone to look to for that "okay". pregnancy is one of those times in life where you DO get an inordinate amount of attention and it does feel good! HOWEVER, as others have mentioned, I personally would not want other women there at my birth, forseeably.
I once saw something where they said that the criterion for who should be at your birth is people who you would feel comfortable pooping in front of. I don't know if this would change how you feel about who you would "invite" but it gave me some perspective on it. In fact, i *would* feel pooping around most of the people at my dd's birth, but still would never have them there again...save perphaps my sister. (for the record, my mom, dad, sister, dh, and two midwives were there)
also, i personally tend to play victim a little too much and would find it tempting to "share" ;) my pain (if there was any) w/all there.
a possible solution: i had two absolutely wonderful blessingways/mother blessings w/ds (baby two, freebirth). i felt soo supported, pampered, loved....and grateful. having had these, i did not *need* to use the birth as a call for attention. we did telephone people on our birth list, so i knew they were pulling for me, but i really didn't want them there physically!
POINT: there are other ways to get/ask for attention.
also, as you said yourself, you would be inviting other's birth ideas/fears in by having them there. I worked sooo hard through many birthing ideas/fears and i had been working through ALL kinds of women's issues/sexuality issues etc for years and years. point being, that even if you *think* that your guests are open minded about birth, etc., it is a LOT of work to de-program our existing cultural ideas about how a woman's body works, etc. Labor/birth is when you are totally open; it is a altered consciousness and anything--subtle or not-- you pick up on very easily. every word, goes straight to the heart! oh gosh, and then there's if they might start to re-birth during this!! :eek ( a dear friend of mine dh did this during their first homebirth). the possibilities are endless! LOL.

totally not trying to scare you but these are my thoughts. :)

[SpiralWoman]

wow! thanks for the warm responses. What I love about this thread is that we are talking about choices that are all based in an understanding of birth as a safe & natural event, but we are not diminishing the power and importance of it. This thread completely transcends the typical birthing stereotypes! I love that.
blessings, maria

[Dodo]

I have another question, this time pertaining more to prenatal care.

Isn't it practical to have a care provider who can recommend tried-and-true solutions to common preggo probs, such as sciatica and leg cramps? I kind of liked that aspect of my prenatal care.

[fourlittlebirds]

Some women who plan to birth unassisted do hire a medical professional to consult with for their prenatal care. I personally didn't feel the need to -- my pregnancy was incredibly straight-forward, and I didn't have any questions that I didn't already know the answer to. (Although I did have a midwife determine the baby's position.)

I did, however, miss having someone to pay undivided attention to me talking about myself. ;)

[sea island mama]

Originally posted by Dodo
Isn't it practical to have a care provider who can recommend tried-and-true solutions to common preggo probs, such as sciatica and leg cramps? I kind of liked that aspect of my prenatal care.

I would think you'd be more likely to get better answers to questions like that on this forum. You would definitely get a greater variety of options pick from.

[indigolilybear]

i second the missing the undivided attention thing that sweetwater mentioned. however as i have said before, i felt that looking to someone else for answers would hinder my ability to truely listen to myself, my baby and my body.

and i too felt very comfortable solving my own preg. problems, if and when they arose. i have a lot of books and really felt okay about it. but other women chose differently.

[violet]

I am so thrilled to see this thread. I first learned of UC birthing here at the mothering boards and when I could not find a midwife in my area that did homebirths, DH and I started talking about what before had seemed so foreign--to birth ourselves. Now I get angry when people speak of drs. delivering babies. Moms deliver babies, other people help and/or get in the way.
DD was born in late april in my MIL's house where DH and I were living. DH assisted me and was wonderful. We had a waterbirth and she "shot" into the world after about 30 min of pushing and only 4 hours of labor. When he handed her to me and I felt her little body in my arms I knew in every fiber of my body that she was perfect. I did not need a dr. to check her over or a nurse to whisk her away--I knew with a consciousness I never knew I had. The same part of me that knew to roll over from all fours to reclining so that I could better control and slow the pushing so I didn't tear. I could go on and on. My point is I'm so thrilled that mamas are talking about UC here and I hope this remains a safe forum for these discussions.

Sofiamama--the one thing I regret about my birth is that I didn't tie up loose ends with dr. and such before the birth because I was worried about the medical establishment coming down on me when I should have been cherishing the first days with my little one. Don't worry about hurting feelings or ruffling feathers. Say as little as possible and clear yourself a path to do what you think is right for you and the little one.
best wishes, violet

[LavenderMae]

My dd was an unplanned unassisted home birth. It was the most amazing event in my life. It was exactly as it was meant to be. I wasn't scared at all. I was on a completely different level os awareness and it was wonderful. I had her in an hour and a half and didn't make it to the hospital. Which was a gift. My dh doesn't view it the same he was so very scared and never wants to be a part of a unassited HB again.
My ds birth was way too medical. I had him in the hospital and I ahd pitocin(because the OB convinced me since my water had been leaking for days I was putting my baby at risk). It was still a beautiful event,any birth of a baby is in my eyes. I do believe it would of been way better if he had been born at home. His cord was wrapped around his neck twice and sort of tight. I'm not sure how I would of delt with that on my own but I'm sure I would have. I have my doubts of why his cords was wrapped around his neck anyway. I dilated very fast due to the pit.,(5cm to 10cm in 5minutes) and I thinik maybe becasue how fast he descended the cord wrapped around his neck. I guess I'll never really know.
This a great discussion!!!!!

[Sofiamomma]

I typed a pretty long reply awhile back, but lost it before it posted and haven't had the head space to redo it. Sorry. But I do appreciate the responses. I have decided to tell my midwife I no longer need her services, but haven't been able to reach her! As far as everything else, I'm still in limbo.

Violet,
Can you explain more about your regrets? What loose ends do you wish you had tied up?

Thanks, Kara

[phoebekate]

this is such an amazing thread, I can't find quite the right word for the feeling you all inspire in me, its not awe because I am happy with my own choices, but something like that if you know what I mean. I just wanted to say to SpiralWoman, regarding birthing supported by a circle of women - that this was really important for me with my first birth, but not just any women, for me the presense of my midwife and my homeopath who had both had their own babies and attended many many women was really beautiful. I had such a sense of deep primal knowing on their part that everything was just fine, this really helped me relax totally into my own knowing, without it i would have gotten caught up into being intellectual and second guessing myself. I could feel that what they knew matched what I knew and therefore just forget about thinking and BE in the moment. I don't think that would be so important for me next time, but it was the first time and I wouldn't change it. and my DH well he was amazing, he was so there with the process and so completely calm and relaxed about it you would think he had done it a million times before - except the cutting of the cord, I think if we went UC it would either be a lotus birth or we would have to have someone in to cut the cord cause neither of us would do it :-)

[fourlittlebirds]

For any of you that are enjoying this discussion, there are more great persectives on UC being expressed at the MidwiferyToday forums:

http://midwiferytoday.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2424

[cobluegirl]

I thought I had posted already and just realized that I hadn't...hehe

The thought of an unassisted birth is the most romantic idea. I think about it on a regular basis and I am not even pregnant...hehe :D Now dh is totally opposed, even to a home birth at this time.

DS (#1) was supposed to be a homebirth with a midwife and when I went into labor I tried for 3 hours to get a hold of her and couldn't reach her so we ended up going into the hospital. I wish I had had more experience and knowledge about the subject. I could have just had an unassisted. I did hemhorage with him, but the dr. pulled my placenta and I am sure that is why. He was stuck and they pulled him too. I think the dr was just in a bid hurry. The whole thing just infurriates me. It could have been such a more beautiful experience.
DD (#2) was a planned hospital birth with a midwife. Three hours start to finish, two pushes, no tearing. It could have been the most beautiful homebirth.

So the idea of a UC is a thought I am in love with.

[violet]

sofiamama
my issue was mainly related to health insurance and being a first time mama. i had student health insurance that would have covered a hospital birth, but only covered dependents at a horribly high rate. And, i didn't find out until the last week that i would need to have the babe checked out by a MD in order to have her approved for a new application for coverage. (i probably should have just added her to my husband's coverage--i think they would have added her and waited to get verification of her health later.) So, I ended up going in to see my GP who I had canceled care with at 26 weeks when he said i had to take the gestational diabetes test or he wouldn't see me. We told him we had her at home and i'm such a horrible liar, i couldn't stick to the cover story and i told him we did it alone on purpose. He was pretty good about it, and asked a few questions about the pushing (he's been considering letting women wait until they feel the pushing urge rater than rushing it---ugh--don't get me started on that one) But he mentioned how lucky we were that nobody called CPS and that is not what I wanted to be dealing with in those first weeks.

Basically, next time, I plan to have a more Progressive minded doc in the loop as to our plans and have him/her check out the babe if necessary post partum. Just having that as a possibility, even though I don't intend to take any babe in to a doc unless I think there is an issue, would sent my mind at rest. Also, I would never again try to switch health insurance at that critical time. we also moved 450 miles two weeks later and i wouldn't do that again, but the birth was spectacular.

hope that helps, violet

[Gagesmom]

I had a natural water birth with my son, with my DH, midwife, and two doulas present. I would have been scared to death to have an unassisted birth with my 1st one. The support and knowledge of my care-givers gave me much comfort. Unassisted childbirth is still not for me, and I can't feel right supporting it no matter how much I try to have an open mind about it. This thread and it's replies have been very interesting. I would be less scared to birth this child (I'm 36 wks preg right now) unassisted, but I still wouldn't want to. I like knowing that there is someone there who knows what to do when the going gets rough (i.e. midwife). My son was born with much meconium in his lungs and would have had many problems maybe even died if his birth had been unassisted. I like the support of having other women there to help you thru the hard work of laboring.

[indigolilybear]

Originally posted by Gagesmom
[Bchildbirth is still not for me, and I can't feel right supporting it no matter how much I try to have an open mind about it.


I'm curious what you mean by "not feeling right about supporting it?" i'm not trying to be confrontational, but do you feel the same way about hospital births, or elective c-sections? I just thought this statement was interesting.

>>>> My son was born with much meconium in his lungs and would have had many problems maybe even died if his birth had been unassisted. I like the support of having other women there to help you thru the hard work of laboring. [/B]

yes, UC is not for everyone and my dd too had a lot of mec. in her lungs at her assisted homebirth. however, they couldn't do anything for her anyway, and even the dr. who came and looked at her said just to watch her, that nursing would help the most. anyway, we felt comfortable nonetheless progressing w/our UC, feeling that the person who "know what to do" would be us!!! :love

[applejuice]

'

[Gagesmom]

Originally posted by indigolilybear


yes, UC is not for everyone and my dd too had a lot of mec. in her lungs at her assisted homebirth. however, they couldn't do anything for her anyway :love


Our midwife suctioned (by tube) our DS's lungs because he couldn't start breathing on his own due to meconium aspiration. If it had been an unassisted birth, my son could definitely have died, or had brain damage due to lack of oxygen to his brain. I'm glad your DD was fine with simple supervision, my DS would not have been.

The reason I feel I cannot support it is that I just think that it's too dangerous. Yes, I do believe that birthing is a natural process and mostly there aren't complications. I do not judge anyone who wants to give birth unassisted: I certainly assume that if they are planning an unassisted birth that they have done their research and feel comfortable in their decision. I just cannot SUPPORT such a decision, that's all. I really believe that the risks are too great.
There are several people who also believe that the risks were too great for me to have both my children outside of a hospital. I respect their opinions on this, and only ask that they not judge me for my beliefs and decisions.
I do not judge a woman on how and where she chooses to birth her children. I simply cannot be an advocate for unassisted birth. That's all.

[laurashanley]

Gagesmom - I certainly respect your opinion, but what you don't know is if perhaps there was anything your midwife did that could have caused your baby to inhale meconium in the first place. Were you instructed to push or not push regardless of what your body was telling you? Did your midwife give you vaginal exams during labor? Just her presence has an affect on your body's ability to labor.

Also, as you said, you wanted a midwife there because you were afraid something might go wrong. Fear is very powerful. There are many people who have written about the affect of fear not only on a mother's body, but on her baby's. Those of us who choose UC question the premise that "things just happen in birth for no reason." Often there are reasons why things go wrong in birth, and many times it is because of interference from the mother's mind or the assistant's hand (to quote Grantly Dick-Read in CHILDBIRTH WITHOUT FEAR). I believe that when we eliminate that interference, birth is safe for both the mother and the baby.
Laura
http://unassistedchildbirth.com

[indigolilybear]

yes, what *she* said! LOL.

[fourlittlebirds]

(it's me, "sweetwater" ;))

Meconium aspiration is a controversial subject, anyone interested in exploring it further might appreciate this link: http://www.gentlebirth.org/archives/meconium.html

We all take risks in exchange for certain benefits; and we all have different risk/benefit ratios in any given situation, information about which others may not be privy to.

The fact is that there exists no proof nor reason that unassisted birth is inherently more dangerous than assisted birth; the safety of either depends on many factors. In my last birth there was a velamentous insertion; when I called a midwife friend after my slow 32-hour labor, she said, "thank god there was no one trying to speed your labor up or tell you to push." Thank god indeed. Management could have put my daughter's life at risk. Of course, if she had gone into distress during management, the assumption would immediately have been that it was my body's fault, or a fluke of nature. What caregivers would consider that their actions (or even their very presence) could be the problem, much less admit it?

[MysticHealerMom]

This is a fabulous thread, a lot of good info and links. Thanks.

And this is a little off topic, perhaps. But it makes me wonder how y'all feel about your intuition? You know, in the sense that everything is right. Do you use your intuition in everyday life as well, or did it peak for you during UC? Is it stronger now for you? I think it's just fabulous how some of you are able to trust and know yourselves without question. To the point of not requiring prenatal care. I can see that inside me, too, but I have other issues I need to clear up. It would be great to have that much faith, clarity and self-love. I think that one reason people become healers is because they have their own issues to overcome and they discover so much about themselves and the nature of the universe that in the process want to spread the healing and help other people. I was concerned that this is a wrong path, that if people know themselves, why would they ever need a healer. And then I realized that it's because you are all exceptional people and have the power you need and the good health to know yourself. Some folks do have issues and need healers to help them find the way to where you already are. Hopefully the healers that they find will be compassionate and unselfish and want to help them instead of following rules that don't involve trusting their own intuition and especially that of those who need healing.

That said, I'm planning my HB, and I'm using prenatal care of my NDs who will be there. I'm trying to expand my intuition based on what I've learned here, and I can see myself not calling them until near the end or when it's over, or just telling them not to hurry. I think I do need their support, and I am learning a lot from watching them, as well.

Thank you

[fourlittlebirds]

In every-day life I know very well when something is not right with my body. I don't call it intuition, I call it allowing myself the mental and physical space I need to be aware of the information my senses are conveying to me. Birth is a more complicated matter than every-day life, of course, if for no reason other than that the body is doing things that normally might be considered signs that something is wrong. I would argue that when it does this something actually is wrong -- but usually not wrong enough to result in harm to the mother or baby. What I mean is that I don't believe normal physiological birth in a healthy body is inherently an arduous, dangerous process -- I believe it is made so by our belief/myths, sedentary lifestyles, processed diets, management of pregnancy and birth, and our attitudes. Sexual dysfunction (and birth is part of the sexual system) is rarely the result of a flaw in the natural system, after all.

The human body is so amazing that it can usually function well enough to produce a healthy baby even in spite of such obstacles. Just imagine what it might do if those obstacles were removed. Some people don't believe these obstacles really exist, in other words they don't believe that such elements of the environment affect the process significantly, or they believe that they are irrelevant, i.e., that evolution (or God) has made birth inherently difficult and risky; others recognize them but don't feel able to avoid them, or they feel that they are a necessary evil.

I myself have run the gamut. :) So I understand completely why someone would want assistance. But I feel at a loss to explain how I have the confidence to do it alone. It involves something of a paradigm shift; if someone isn't there already or on her way over, it's unlikely I can make her understand.

[fourlittlebirds]

Originally posted by MysticHealerMom
Do you use your intuition in everyday life as well, or did it peak for you during UC? Is it stronger now for you?

I wouldn't say that my intuition is stronger -- like I said in my previous post, I don't know how much I really believe in intuition, for me it's just about being aware -- BUT, my sense of perspective is definitely stronger. Birth, or life, is of course intimately connected with death. I was philosophical to begin with, but whereas before my musings consisted mainly of questions, now they consist of bits and pieces of answers to those questions.

[indigolilybear]

>>>> Do you use your intuition in everyday life as well, or did it peak for you during UC? Is it stronger now for you?

i do use my intuition in everyday life and am trying to make a conscious effort to do it more and more. i think it's like a muscle, you need to exercise it for it to become strong. (BTW< interesting perspective, blue violet/sweetwater re: intuition/awareness) i would not say it "peaked" for me at all during my UC. UC was merely an avenue that appealed to me to put myself on a road that i believed would challenge me to strengthen my intuition/faith in myself in a way previously untapped. I basically decided to put my money where my mouth was and go for it....knowing that if i commited to the decision, that the universe or God-us would come in to assist me...and that the process would be rewarding in itself.

and, wow! was it! basically it was a path to integrating a totally new mindset and belief system than i held before. it was really NOT AT ALL that i felt so confident because i was scared!!!! BUT once i had read all teh books, etc and processed it, i realized that i had gone too far to go back, KWIM? mainly that i *couldn't* hire a MW, etc after investigating and realizing that in my heart of hearts that i deeply believed in all the premises of freebirth.

>>>>I think it's just fabulous how some of you are able to trust and know yourselves without question. To the point of not requiring prenatal care..... It would be great to have that much faith, clarity and self-love. ..... And then I realized that it's because you are all exceptional people and have the power you need and the good health to know yourself. Some folks do have issues and need healers to help them find the way to where you already are. Hopefully the healers that they find will be compassionate and unselfish and want to help them instead of following rules that don't involve trusting their own intuition and especially that of those who need healing.

a lot of interesting thoughts here....one thing i *do* take exception to though is that we are "exceptional" people. yes, i'm stubborn but i really felt very unexceptional....i mean, i read the stories before i was even preg. w/dd one (an assisted HB) and felt like, "Wow, i'm NOT like them....i couldn't do that". and strangely enough, now i'm on the other side of it, and i still feel the same. ;) undoubtedly, the process changed me a LOT but then again, it also made me feel like this is possible for anyone....IF (and htis is a big "if") they WANT to do it. really, IMO that is all it's about.

also, IMO you are right about the healer thing...many people/healers want to be the savior. yes, unhealthy. i was fortunate to have contacted Jeannine Parvati Baker, who IMO, is one of the "purest" healers of these issues around.

also, i DID and DO have issues....a LOt of them! :p seriously, when we have our next baby, i will STILL be dealing w/a lot of issues. i am STILL scared. and those deep-rooted beliefs are still there. But, still, I'd never forseeably birth my babe any other way. Luckily, i have a wonderful DH who truly believes in us!!

blessings--:love

[indigolilybear]

>>>To the point of not requiring prenatal care.....

one more thing, re: this decision. i had had prenatal "scare" w/dd...and it really was for us. everything (almost) i was positive for.....GB strep, gestational diab., high BP, etc. It was this experience in and of itself that convinced me NOT to have the care. I didn't help at ALL IMO and in fact, made things worse. made me feel "problematic" instead of the glowing perfect mama that i was! :D and of course, this mapped right over into my birth.....

i DID miss the attention but knew clearly that subjecting myself to some "expert" for approval was NOT going to serve spontaneously birthing my babe. IN fact, i think that whole mindset was a BIG part of the problem.

okay, my novel is finished! LOL:hippie

[DaryLLL]

Just going to jump in here, very late. i had my last kid 11 yrs ago, so haven't bothered to check this thread til now!

I had a c-sec with my first, 36 hours from water breaking. it was a horror show, I didn't even know about the safety of homebirth, much less do-it yourself. I hate hospitals and don't trust drs, but I have healed from that bad birth, i was ignnorant. It was almost 17 yrs ago.

Next time HBAC with midwives. I liked my midwife, she helped me to see I could do a VBAC at home. Unfortunately, her asst, whom I didn't particularly care for, took over too much at the birth. She was yelling at me to push. She admitted later to being nervous about the VBAC. when my placenta didn't come out, and I was bleeding, she *pulled on my cord!!* ...the heck? only a part of it came out and then the midwife "couldn't find my cervix!" Luckily there was one other midwife there who went in and retrieved it and we sent the EMTs away. Only a 12 hour birth. I should have stood up to let the placenta come out.

#3, different midwife, 4 hour labor, ds did most of the work getting himself out.

If I'd have had one more, who knows, I might have had it on one hour, by myself!

anyway, I was thinking, do introverts prefer UC, and extroverts prefer to have a circle of kind women and friends around? Those I've known to have either UC or have a midwife but not let her in the room, have been introverts.

My friend Karen had her 4th child UC. She'd had 2 homebirths, but her labor had slowed when the midwives walked in the door of her house. I was supposed to go over to watch her 3 older girls for the birth. I called her when she was due to see how she was. her oldest dd said, moms in the tub, she is OK. so I went grocery shopping. Darn it! when I got back, my dd was in the driveway, we have to go over to karen's, she is having her baby! I called first, as she was 1 hour away. Well, the baby was already born, and the kids did just fine without a caretaker. i talked to her, she told me how she'd had on and off labor, gotten into the tub, then got out, walked to the bed and had the baby just like that. Then she told me, i have to go and deliver the placenta now! So we hung up. :thumb

[fourlittlebirds]

Well, it makes sense to me that certain personality types would have more of a tendency to be drawn to UC than others. I am VERY sensitive to other people's energy and behavior, I am distracted and taken out of myself very easily, I can be very self-conscious, and tend to be modest. I also have a deeply ingrained fear of speaking out against authority, and a fear of hurting other's feelings. I am the "nice girl", the "good patient".

My personality is not the only reason I chose UC, though; it's also because I have an unusual view of the birth process that modern birth management simply does not jibe with, and I didn't want it interfered with.

[indigolilybear]

i guess i'd have two answers to this:

1. you have to carefully define introvert.....my former boss told me that an introvert is someone who recharges by being by themselves and an extrovert is someone that gets energy by being w/others....so by this definition, i'm an introvert. BUT, I am extremely social, and love being around other people. so there may be some truth to that, but like i said, many people you may think are extroverts, may in truth not be and vice versa if you go by this definition.

2. however, if you see birth (as i do) as a private, sexual act, then i don't think too many others, intro- or extrovert, would necessarily want others around, KWIM? i don't know too many people who enjoy other's there for having a bowel mov't or making love w/their partner.

anyway, IME, i know several people who wanted or had UC's. i guess i'd define the majority as introverts, but i'd also label them very literary, critical thinkers, people who valued trusting themselves, ...well, you get my point.

very thought provoking idea for me, though..:)

[DaryLLL]

Originally posted by indigolilybear
i guess i'd have two answers to this:

1. you have to carefully define introvert.....my former boss told me that an introvert is someone who recharges by being by themselves and an extrovert is someone that gets energy by being w/others....so by this definition, i'm an introvert. BUT, I am extremely social, and love being around other people. so there may be some truth to that, but like i said, many people you may think are extroverts, may in truth not be and vice versa if you go by this definition.

very thought provoking idea for me, though..:)

Thanks, esp as I jumped in late, so rude.

I once took one of those online tests and I fell in the middle of the continuum between intro and extro: I know I get all charged up at LLL, but have to have my "me time" too, which made me nuts when the kids were little, spirited and demanding!

So, if i am pretty social, I therefore liked having my gentle, not in your face midwives. Waaaayyy better than all those stragner running around in the hospital! Can you say adrenalin? I sure like having my privacy with dh once the baby is out tho.

[Dodo]

Thought it was time for me to thank you all and share with you the effect your thought-provoking responses have had on me.

First, this thread made me realize how much I'd like to give birth at home. This may or may not be possible for me, since I live in a province where I would have to pay out-of-pocket for a lay midwife, should I want pre-natal care.

Second, although I will probably continue to birth with assistance, I am no longer disturbed by those who don’t. In fact, I have a fantasy of a quick labour (unlikely!) with no time to telephone. Maybe this desire to leave difficult decisions to “chance” is common?

Third, I am less sure about certain aspects of pre-natal care. I am no longer comfortable with the monthly weigh-ins or the weekly visits in the final days of pregnancy, both of which can contribute to unnecessary anxiety.

I remember when I first met with one midwife and she wanted to know if I had any questions about her philosophies, etc. and I didn’t have a clue as to what to ask. Now I have no shortage of questions!

I also remember the midwife who taught my pre-natal class saying that women knew how to give birth, that they should crawl off themselves into the forest to birth their babies. At the time, I thought she was insane. Now I would tell any prospective midwife that I require a hands-off approach, that I need to crawl into the forest alone.

On a slightly different topic, I recently read a 1950s mothering manual that addresses the then commonly held belief that pre-natal care was “faddish”! It’s so interesting how little time it takes for something, e.g., prenatal care, to become so integrated in our culture to the point where it is deemed unacceptable to live without it.

Anyway, thanks again, ladies.

[MysticHealerMom]

thanks for sharing your insites, Dodo. very well thought out. I'm going to have to save this thread for future reference, if it's not archived automatically.

cheers and best wishes,

Lori

[cobluegirl]

Yes Lunarmomma.....Can we have this one archived? Please!!!!!

[lunarmomma]

Sure... do you want to continue the conversation or have me archive it now???

[MysticHealerMom]

Looks to me like the conversations pretty well wound up. Dodo thanked everyone. Hadn't been a new post since the 26th, and the conversation sort of turned towards introversion vs extroversion. :)

I wouldn't take my word for it, but I'd say it's pretty well finished. Could always open a new thread, as well. :D

Anyone else?

[cobluegirl]

I think that is a safe bet. It has only been the last week that someone has posted in a while.