"Wer hat Angst vor dem schwarzen Mann?" ~ Oh, my...

[IdentityCrisisMama]

So, I figure it best to discuss this here because I'm sure there's a cultural gap going on here.

Could someone please explain this children's song / game to me?

It goes something like:


"Wer hat Angst vor dem schwarzen Mann?

-Niemand.

Aber wenn er kommt...

-Wer rennen."

So,

"Who's afraid of the black man?

-Nobody

But when he comes?

-We run"



And then the person chased the kids all around.

I find this song offensive and they were playing it ~ teacher led at Aya's pre-K. What's the deal here?!?

Also, I don't know if this is significant but I had the impression that Aya's pre-K is rather 'open'. There is a child of a lesbian couple as well as one black and one mixed child along with other cultural, "racial" groups. And, the parents are quite involved so I imagine that if this is a common game it's known and tolerated by the other parents.

So, that has me thinking I'm missing something or that I've lost the translation or cultural explanation.

Or, maybe it was a not-so harmless case of the teacher not thinking about her game.

I have no idea...help me out here, please!

[Elphaba]

...

[IdentityCrisisMama]

There does seem to be a small amount of activism about this song. I got the words wrong...

"Wer hat Angst vorm schwarzen Mann? Niemand! Und wenn er kommt? Dann laufen wir!"

So, I'm still not that clear ~ can't fully understand the articles I've found but it seems clear that this song is 'iffy'.

Now, I'm not sure what to do. The teacher is new and is just here for a 3 month apprenticeship. Maybe I'll find a good article on the song to give to her and/or hopefully, the other teachers will discuss this mistake with her.

But this has me wondering how she didn't consider this herself. As a teacher, was she not required to take a diversity or sensitivity class?

Or, is this a cultural problem of mine. Am I too "PC"?

What would *your* reaction have been and what would you do?

[Elphaba]

...

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Yea, I'm working on how I'm going to discuss this. It isn't a school where the parents stay so I was the only parent. We leave in the middle of the day and I don't have much time to talk when I leave because the teachers are in the middle of care.

I just talked to Alice and she hasn't heard the song so I guess it's not that popular. I'm waiting to hear back from a black German friend.

It's not an option to just have Aya not play that game...she wasn't playing it anyway. It's just that I don't think it's okay for *anyone* if it's what I think it is.

My expectations are that there will be an agreement that the game wasn't a well thought idea and they won't play it again. My other expectation is that they have already spoken to the teacher who started it or had a meeting about it.

It seems to me to be a mistake made by a new teacher. Alice says she doesn't think Germany is that far along in this kind of issue.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Oh, and I just got an e-mail from Joey. He's pissed also so at least I don't have to deal with that if it comes to anything drastic.


You know, this is just one of those hard thigns when the cultural gap is there. For me, it creates self-doubt. Frustrating to say the least.

[Elphaba]

....

[IdentityCrisisMama]

So, I just talked to a black friend who has lived in Germany for 10+ years. She says the song is intended to mean a chimney sweep who comes down the chimney covered in soot.

But, it's offensive, regardless. Especially because "Schwarzen Mann" isn't even the most common word for chimney sweep...that's something else that I can't remember, lol.

She's warned me that I may not be greeted with much understanding but I'm feeling like it will go well.

I'm just going to calmly ask the the head teacher that was there that day if she finds the song 'okay'. I imagine she'll say that they've already decided not.

If not, my friend and I are going to do some research tomorrow about the song. I think we'll find some good stuff because there's lots out there. We'll probably do the research anyway and will post it here.

Thanks, Elphaba. I got your PM, btw...as you can see I've been busy! I hope things are well for you. I'll be intouch when we get this pre-K thing sorted.

[UmmIlyas]

ICM, I would also be a bit offended by that song. I think is a culturall thing, however. I remember when living in the Netherlands I was SHOCKED when I first saw a Christmas character of theirs - Zwarte Piet ('Black Pete"). Basically a white Dutch dude in black face and a jester's outfite helping Santa hand out candy. :eek

You might explain our background (by this I mean American, as I'm asssuming you're American, too!), and explain to the teacher why you find it offensive. So instead of saying "This offensive and racist!" approach it from a different angle.

"This is such a cute song about a chimney sweep! However, we don't have chimney sweeps in the US, and if my Aya sings this song to her American friends, they will call her a racist. Could we come up with another rhyme for the children to use?"

Of course, this is just a off-the-cuff idea! The teacher might still blow you off!

BTW, I lived in Heidelberg for a while. How are you liking it?

[behr]

OK, well, I just saw this.

'Wer hat Angst vor'm schwarzen Mann' is a game I used to play all the time when I was a kid. Of course, I had no idea this is highly offensive when I was a kid. But I would never let my kids play this version. I would explain the reason why I think it is offensive to the kids and/or teacher and then suggest replacing 'schwarzer Mann' with another word, i.e. 'Krokodil, gruenes Monster', whatever. They might want to choose. Sounds like a wonderful lesson in political correctness to me.

I do believe the words are highly offensive and racist, however you bend it. I'm not entirely shure who the 'schwarze Mann' really is meant to be, but this can be too easily misunderstood. I know my mom was scared to death when she saw a black man for the first time some 60 years ago, and I think that the game comes from that time. It may have had an innocent beginning, but... I know we Germans have a lot to learn about political correctness, this is a very new concept here, I'm sorry to say.
They didn't change the name of these chocolate covered marshmallow things until they started selling them in other countries. The name used to be 'Negerkuss' when I was young. My mom still uses the word "Neger' all the time although I have told her often that I find it offensive. She doesn't mean it in a bad way, and doesn't understand my problem. So, I know it's not easy to make people understand.

I wish you much luck in talking to your preschool teacher. I have been in that situation where I find things offensive or too dangerous often, and I know the blank stares of wonder when I start to talk about my feelings. But this game should *definitely* be altered in a Kindergarten setting.

[mittendrin]

i'm german. we played it a lot when i was a kid. i always thought it was about a monster, someone who'd try to hurt me or so. never did it occur to me that it could be offensive. it's always what you make out of it. schwarzer man doesn't neccesarily need to mean a colored person.
behr, your talking about "negerkuss" also. do we germans have that label, that everything that's worded not supercarefully and fit for american sensitive minds is automatically racist? sad for our people. bad things happened in germany, but i find it ridiculous to overnanalyze here and try to find something that's not there.
it's a children's game, for pete's sake! how about looking at it from that perspective: it wants to teach you kid to run whenever sombody seems fishy to them. could be a robber dressed in black with a black mask.
what's next, your telling me grimm's tales are banned from your house, cause they're too violent? :tsk :confused: :LOL
how about simply talking to your child and finding out what picture is in her head when she's playing the game. you might be surprised...

[behr]

mittendrin, I think you're adressing three different things here.

The game might be a children's game, but it is taught by *adults* who I think have the responsibility to think carefully about what they put into children's minds. I remembered yesterday that we played this in school sports, so it's not quite the innocent little game you make it out to be. Comparing black men with monsters or 'someone trying to hurt us' is exactly what's wrong with this game.

Secondly, I try to teach my children to mind other people's feelings. I want them to think how other's might be hurt by words or actions that may seem harmless to us. This may not be a popular thing to do in German culture, but it is something I feel strongly about.
Also, sometimes words, or games, we've become used to because someone taught them to us when we were young, need to be reconsidered and thought over from a different angle. It's often helpful to shift our perception, to see things anew in order to understand them better, isn't it.
I do, by the way, believe it is the legacy we as Germans carry, whether we want to or not, to be overly sensitive. A lot of us do, and that is a good thing. It shows we've learned from mistakes made in the past.

As for Grimm's tales, I do choose carefully which ones I tell my kids, at least as long as their minds are young. I don't weed them out because they are violent, but because of their stereotyping of women as weak (as in princess waiting to be freed by stong prince) or cruel (as witches). Could this be due to the fact that they were written by men?

[mittendrin]

o-m-g :foot

[HerthElde]

I would be offended too. Sure, it's a game, but so was "eeny meeny miny mo", and you can bet we changed the words on that one! (I thought the real words included "tiger" until I was probably about 16 or so).


As for Grimm's tales, I do choose carefully which ones I tell my kids, at least as long as their minds are young. I don't weed them out because they are violent, but because of their stereotyping of women as weak (as in princess waiting to be freed by stong prince) or cruel (as witches). Could this be due to the fact that they were written by men?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that Grimm's fairy tales were never meant for children. They've been altered quite a bit. Stepsisters cutting their feet off is not my idea of light children's reading, anyway ;) So I also pick and choose.

[huggerwocky]

So, I just talked to a black friend who has lived in Germany for 10+ years. She says the song is intended to mean a chimney sweep who comes down the chimney covered in soot.

.

yep, that's what it means.

I am German and know the song.

[behr]

Yea, well, so does this make the game allright to play in these times, huggerwocky? In a place where black men get beaten up, even killed, because they're 'schwarze Maenner'?
'Cause I see a heck of a lot more black men around here now than soodsy chimney sweeps.
Shouldn't we as teachers and parents be super careful what associations we provoke with certain games and stories?

There's still a lot of right extremist activity going on in this country, even after what happened. This is a matter of public discussion especially these days as we are commemorating the 60 year anniversary since the freeing of Auschwitz and renewed talk about outlawing the NPD.

ICM, did you bring your concerns up with the preschool teachers?

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Yes, Behr I agree with you 100%.

I’m somewhat ashamed to say that I haven’t yet spoken to the school about it. I’m officially pulling Aya out of the school (for other reasons) and hope to have some time with the *very busy* teachers in the next few days.

Oddly enough, the head teacher (who is new) there on the day they did the song has a half black son. The whole situation is just so strange to me.

For the record, I’m sure there are similar ‘issues’ in the US. I can’t think of any right now but I know there were games that I played or my parents played that are not longer all that “PC”. I see this as a normal evolution of culture and language.

Part of what I’m afraid of, though, is the defensiveness that often comes with addressing this issue. A friend of mine told me to expect this based on her experience, which is why I wanted to talk to one specific teacher. I’ll keep you posted.

[Regula]

I am Swiss, and we also used to play this game.From my knowledge, the "schwarze Mann" does not represent a black person but a person suffering from plague (also called the Black Death). Doesn't make it better, because obviously most people don't know about the background of this game, but should give you some information, and that not everything has to do with racism ;)

BTW, we also used to play "Wer hat Angst vor dem bösen Wolf" - although the wolf is a very shy animal and normally does not attack people ;)

[Hollycrand]

Okay, I'm going to sound really naive here, but what IS the real 'meaning' of the rhyme "eeny meeny miny mo"?
And I STILL thought that it went 'catch a tiger...'

I agree with the comments on this thread advocating some sensitivity to the specific words being used in the German text. I don't think I'd ever sing that song to my child...or be happy if she learned it at school!

[TheOink]

I would be offended too. Sure, it's a game, but so was "eeny meeny miny mo", and you can bet we changed the words on that one! (I thought the real words included "tiger" until I was probably about 16 or so).



Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that Grimm's fairy tales were never meant for children. They've been altered quite a bit. Stepsisters cutting their feet off is not my idea of light children's reading, anyway ;) So I also pick and choose.
Indeed -- the Grimm's fairy tales were stories told by women spinning cloth to other women spinning cloth to pass the time. The Grimm brothers just travelled the German countryside and wrote them down.

Sorry, I did a huge research project on this back in college...

--The Oink

[Merilin]

"Wer hat Angst vor'm schwarzen Mann" ist a game I used to play frequently during my childhood. It never once occured to me, that it could offend black people or that a black person could be meant by me, nor where the 2 black kids in my class offended by this game.

The "schwarze Mann" was always something like the Bogeyman, although I have found, that there is no clear interpretation. It is a very very old game (a couple 100 years) and people I talked to associate the death, the devil, the Bogeyman, a chimney sweeper, etc with it. I never once met a person who thought that a black man was meant by this rhyme.

However, I do agree, that in case some family which did not experience this harmlessness of meaning could feel offended and people should respect these feeling, although I believe that Germans would not really understand the offensivness of these words as most of us do not associate a black man with this game.

Greetings,

Merilin

PS: Ene Mene Muh is a rhyme :

Ene Mene Muh,
und drauß bist du,
drauß bist du noch lange nicht,
musst erst sagen wie alt du bist. etc etc

It goes on for a while and it is about deciding in a game, e.g. "wer hat angst vor'm schwarzen Mann?" who is going to be the "schwarze Mann" at first. There are many different rhymes of this kind available. Ene Mene Muh does not have a specific meaning, those are just sounds.

[Lara vanÆsir]

It's a culture gap thing. I'm not German, but have a few friends in Hamburg, and I have heard this song before. As an American I first interpreted "Schwarzen Mann" to mean a Negro man, however after realizing that this was not what everyone else interprefted the words as, I stopped tying my panties in a knot about it and got on.

[chaosmaus]

I am Swiss, and we also used to play this game.From my knowledge, the "schwarze Mann" does not represent a black person but a person suffering from plague (also called the Black Death). Doesn't make it better, because obviously most people don't know about the background of this game, but should give you some information, and that not everything has to do with racism ;)

not exactly - the text has indeed sth. to do with the black death but not with those that suffered from it or died but with the gravediggers of that time.
there were so many dead bodies, that they were collected on wooden carriages in the evenings in dozens by the gravediggers. those gravediggers were dressed in long black coats with hoods and black gloves - hoping not to get infected with this clothing...
everybody was scared to run across such a "black man" they were also avoided in "normal life" because of their contact with the dead bodies.
most of the gravediggers were of course infected some time or later - and some of them surely were really angry with their "fellow citizens", no wonder - they helped (or tried to help) to get rid of the plague and the thanks were being left alone...
so children were told to run when they see one of the gravediggers and surely some of the kids laughed and taunted the gravediggers.
so that is it, the text of the song and the way it is played...
later the "black man" in the songtext got a synonyme to most dangerous men - like outlaws for example.
around the village where i grew up (in bavaria) is a very huge forrest called the "wild man" where outlaws used to hide in the middleages - again children were warned to run away when they saw a black(=dirty in bavarian) wildlooking man coming along...
i'm sure in other german regions there are similar cultural imprints - but the origin of the text and the game were the blackdressed gravediggers during the plague
sonja