Vit. K shot and erythromycin eye goop?

[famousmockngbrd]

Are you giving these to your newborn? Why or why not?

[june'smom]

nope we don;t do either of these things.
We felt that the eye goop was silly because it is used to treat stds. WHich we dont' have. I don't want to treat for something when I could just take a test if I was unsure that I had it (which I, of course , wasn't) I felt it was unnecessary.

the vit k shot we didn't do because it is used to treat internal bleeding for the most part. Bleeding can be caused by a tramatic birth but doesnt' always show signs. But we looked at the numbers and statistics for internal bleeding problems and it was close to 1 in 4 millioin that have severe problems. For most issues the vit k in breast milk is more than enough.

I hope that helps
Louise

[Pom]

Nope.Nope.

We also decline the Hep B vac which they give right off, now. That is also designed to fight stds (they beleive it's easier to vax a captive audience than a sexually active (pre)teen).

[famousmockngbrd]

That does help, thank you. All opinions are welcome. :)

I have read that the bacteria from the stds (chlamydia, specifically) can sometimes be present without any symptoms. I am planning on having a homebirth, but I am still seeing a CNM for now, ini addition to my homebirth midwife. They did a pap smear a few months ago - was that tested for stds? I am woefully ignorant of how or when they test for these things.

Also, when I had DS my milk didn't come in for about 5 days. Is there vitamin K in colostrum?

[Galatea]

I didn't do either of these things with ds and didn't give it a second thought. I don't even remember it being an issue.

[WriterMama]

We don't do either for the reasons others have stated. Both kids were born at home, so it was pretty easy to decline them. I can see how it would be more difficult in a hospital setting.

[SharonAnne]

I don't plan on doing either, again, for the reasons stated.

Re; the hep B vax....DON'T GET THIS VAX. NOT YOU OR YOUR CHILDREN. I have a demyelinating plaque in my brain from this vaccination and have to go for yearly MRIs to check for MS. Hep B is my big pet project :LOL Sorry to hijack.

[Pepper]

Is there vitamin K in colostrum?

Yes. Colostrum is rich in vitamin k. Nursing your newborn after birth provides tons of it :)

[jraohc]

We were going to decline the Vitamin K, but then dd was delivered with a vacuum and we decided to go ahead with it. We also went ahead with the eye goop because it seemed rather benign. I guess at that point we just weren't in for fighting the hospital.

I'm planning a homebirth for next time. I imagine that these won't be issues at a homebirth or at least they'll be easier to refuse.

[Beverly]

We're not doing either, but then, they're not routine in Sweden.

[Annalisasmom]

I didn't do either and I regret doing the hep vax. our next one will not have it

[pamamidwife]

I just want to make a bit of an addendum here -

Vit K is made in our GUT - it's a by product of bacteria. It is added to artificial breastmilk substitutes.

The minute your baby is born and starts nursing, it starts creating Vitamin K because of bacteria contact. By the 8th day, the Vitamin K levels are such that it is measureable. It's thought that it's one reason why Jewish boys were not circ'd until the 8th day....

Here is my informed choice document on Vit K: http://www.midwifemama.com/Vitamin%20K.pdf

And my inf choice document on eye ointment:
http://www.midwifemama.com/Eye%20Prophylaxis.pdf

(They're both PDF files, so you may need to get Adobe Reader if you don't have it)

[famousmockngbrd]

Thanks, Pam - I don't have AR but I will download it when I have more time so I can read those docs.

You are all going to think I'm nuts but I'm not concerned about having to *refuse* these things - I'm having a homebirth so it won't be an issue if we don't want them. What I'm worried about is wanting them, and not getting them! So I'm trying to research the risks vs. the benefits to figure out if it's worth it. Kinda backwards, huh!

[philomom]

Nope, I refused both.

[JoAida]

We have a family history of erythromycin allergy, so I will definately be refusing that one. I also refuse Hep B. Now, I can't wait to see the look in their eyes when I tell them that not only will they not be doing those, but my baby is NOT to have a bath or any other procedures during my C-section recovery. The only thing we will allow this time is for DH to hold the baby. It's going to be a fun fight.

[aja-belly]

i had not even thought about allergies to erythromyacin! my husband has allergies to a whole list of different antibiotics. i was trying to decide, but this pretty much seals that fo me!

aja

[crayon]

With DD (hosital transfer) we did not do the Vit. K shots, I have done lots of study on the higher risk of cancer when given vit. K shots.

for the eye ointment, I was TOLD they would take her and put in to child custody by the state and then her father and I would have to fight the court to get her back. Yes you all read that right! This was after 40+ hours of labor and within 20 min of her birth. So she was given it, but she has had problems from it from day one. Clogged ducts and then I was just talking to a friend and she suggested the reason why DD doesnt have tears (only 5 times in 22 months) is because of a side effect of the ointment, so now I am looking into that :angry :eyesroll :angry

This baby will be born at home and will NOT have ANYTHING! :love

[crayon]

You are all going to think I'm nuts but I'm not concerned about having to *refuse* these things - I'm having a homebirth so it won't be an issue if we don't want them. What I'm worried about is wanting them, and not getting them! So I'm trying to research the risks vs. the benefits to figure out if it's worth it. Kinda backwards, huh!


Well I would say for this type of community it is a bit backwards, however you have the right- you can also take your baby to a local PED and have it all done or see if a local PED will come to your house- some will. However, if you do decided you dont want them for the risk that are involved then make sure you contact your hospital and find out what happeneds during a transfer- what do you need to sign a head of time to wave them... Also ask your MW, most MWs would know where to get the vax's you want.

[famousmockngbrd]

Also ask your MW, most MWs would know where to get the vax's you want.

Just FTR, I don't want any vaxes, at least not until the baby is a year old. I don't consider the Vit. K shot or the eye goop "vaxes". I just want to make an informed decision, I don't want to not get stuff that might actually be low risk/high benefit just because I'm having the baby at home and it's not part of *that* "standard procedure", yk? I hope that makes sense.

Anyway - thanks again for all the input. I was not aware of a link between Vit. K shots and cancer. If anyone has any links they could give me about this stuff, I'd appreciate it. :)

[crayon]

I am thinking that all vax's are ment to "protect" against something... That was all I ment by vax's and if I understand correctly vit k. is concidered a vaccination... But it is always a parents choice :) And I am very glad you are seeking knowledge! :thumb

This article states:

The chance of your child developing leukaemia from the Vitamin K shot is estimated to be about one in 500

v's

The bleeding condition the Vitamin K shot is supposed to prevent occurs at a rate that is far lower (in a non-Vitamin K injected child) than the rate of occurrence of leukaemia. The haemorrhaging condition may occur in approximately 1 in 10,000 live births


But here is a full article but I wanted to note the last part first!


Commonsensically, VKR poses the question, "...how could God (or nature) have erred so badly as to give all newborn babies only an infinitesimal fraction of their required vitamin K? Surely the human race could not have survived to this point if all newborns were born with this deficiency and none being administered at birth until very recently." So ironically, when a Vitamin K deficiency does occur the probable cause(s) would be some other artificial, unnecessary interference, which just so happens to be something that one might say is fairly characteristic of modern medical treatments.

Link with full article below (http://www.vaccination.inoz.com/VitaminK.html)

****

Bronwyn Hancock October 2003

The reason given for administration of Vitamin K is to prevent haemorrhagic disease in newborns. However consider the following points:

The form of Vitamin K injected

· The body does not readily utilise synthetic vitamins and minerals. The vitamin K administered by hospitals to newborns is the synthetic phytonadione. The natural forms of vitamin K that are found in many foods, particularly in vegetables such as collard greens, spinach, broccoli, asparagus, brussels sprouts and salad greens, are a different form – they are called phylloquinone or menaquinone. Certain bacteria in the intestinal tract also produce menaquinones.

· Apart from its synthetic nature, it is based on plant Vitamin K and injected. The body utilises vitamins and minerals that are found in plants and creates the human form it needs, but this is after they go through the digestion process, which obviously does not occur with injections.

· "Little is known about the metabolic fate of vitamin K. Almost no free unmetabolised vitamin K appears in bile or urine," states both the 1988 and 1998 Physician's Desk Reference (PDR). "This is especially important due to the fact that it is a fat-soluble vitamin and therefore can accumulate in the body," wrote Vitamin K Resources (VKR) in the extremely well-documented and footnoted 1999 article, Intramuscular Vitamin K Injection: Is K OK?he amount of Vitamin K administered

Toxic ingredients accompanying the Vitamin K

· The vitamin K injections administered by hospitals and manufactured by Merck and Roche and Abbott contain benzyl alcohol as a preservative. The 1989 PDR states that, "there is no evidence to suggest that the small amount of benzyl alcohol contained in AquaMEPHYTON (Merck's vitamin K injection product), when used as recommended, is associated with toxicity." Interestingly, in November 1988, the French medical journal, Dev Pharmacol Ther, published a paper regarding benzyl alcohol metabolism and elimination in babies. The report stated that "...we cannot directly answer the issue of safety of 'low doses' of benzyl alcohol as found in some medications administered to neonates. This study confirms the immaturity of the benzoic acid detoxification process in premature newborns."

· Roche's vitamin K product KONAKION contains ingredients such as phenol (carbolic acid-a poisonous substance distilled from coal tar), propylene glycol (derived from petroleum and used as an antifreeze and in hydraulic brake fluid) and acetic acid (an astringent antimicrobial agent that may drastically reduce the amount of natural vitamin K that would have otherwise been produced in the digestive tract). As reported in the PDR and as published in the IM vitamin K packet inserts for Merck, Roche and Abbott, "Studies of carcinogenicity, mutagenesis or impairment of fertility have not been conducted with Vitamin K1 Injection
(Phytonadione Injection, USP)."

· The Vitamin K injection can be in a base of polyethoxylated castor oil.

· Vitamin K injections manufactured as recently as 1995 contain hydrochloric acid "for pH adjustment."



Haemolysis, cancer



Effects of Vitamin K administration

· The manufacturers warn on the product insert: "Severe reactions, including fatalities, have occurred during and immediately after intravenous injection of phytonadione even when precautions have been taken to dilute the vitamin and avoid rapid infusion..."

· The Vitamin K shot has been linked to leukaemia, including acute lymphoblastic leukaemia, which is characterized by an increased number of white corpuscles in the blood, and accounts for about 85 percent of childhood leukaemia. Research carried out by Dr. Louise Parker, of the Sir James Spence Institute of Child Health in Newcastle upon Tyne, produced the most startling results. Dr. Louise Parker was quoted in the British Medical Journal in 1998 as stating, "It is not possible, on the basis of currently published evidence, to refute the suggestion that neonatal IM vitamin K administration increases the risk of early childhood leukemia.".

The British Journal of Cancer published "Factors associated with childhood cancer" by J. Golding, et al, in 1990. The report indicated that universally administered IM vitamin K injections significantly increase our children's chances of developing childhood cancer. A follow-up study published two years later in the British Medical Journal (Golding J, Paterson K, Greenwood R, Mott M. Intramuscular vitamin K and childhood cancer. BMJ 1992; 305:341-346.) reinforced the findings of the previous study. The authors' comments, in keeping with scientific style, are conservatively stated, but parents who are concerned about the health of their babies will read "danger" between the following lines: "The only two studies so far to have examined the relation between childhood cancer and intramuscular vitamin K have shown similar results and the relation is biologically plausible. The prophylactic benefits against haemorrhagic disease are unlikely to exceed the potential adverse effects from intramuscular vitamin K..."

The chance of your child developing leukaemia from the Vitamin K shot is estimated to be about one in 500 (MIDIRS Midwifery Digest, Vol 2 #3, September 1992)

· Animal studies have linked large doses of vitamin K to a variety of conditions that include anaemia, liver damage, kidney damage and death.

· According to the product insert, adverse reactions include haemolysis (or hemolysis - American spelling) (meaning breakdown of red blood cells), haemolytic anaemia (a disorder characterised by chronic premature destruction of red blood cells), hyperbilirubinemia (too much bilirubin in blood) and jaundice (yellow skin and eyes resulting from hyperbilirubinemia), and allergic reactions include face flushing, gastrointestinal upset, rash, redness, pain or swelling at injection site and itching skin. It also warns that large enough doses can cause brain damage in infants and/or impairment to liver function. Hypoxia has also been published as having occurred in infants after Vitamin K administration.



The necessity (or lack of necessity) for administration of Vitamin K

· The bleeding condition the Vitamin K shot is supposed to prevent occurs at a rate that is far lower (in a non-Vitamin K injected child) than the rate of occurrence of leukaemia. The haemorrhaging condition may occur in approximately 1 in 10,000 live births

· The condition also will not necessarily be prevented by Vitamin K because it can be caused by other factors than a lack of Vitamin K (e.g. See Arch Dis Child 1999; 81:278 (September)). In fact vaccination is a major cause of haemorrhaging.

· The bacteria that should quickly colonise the gut (in a baby who is breastfed and not given antibiotics directly or as one of the ingredients in vaccines, including most likely the Hepatitis B vaccine) produces Vitamin K anyway, as mentioned above.

· As early as April 17, 1977, an article in one of the world's most esteemed medical journals, the Lancet, discredited the policy of routine vitamin K injections. "We conclude that healthy babies, contrary to current beliefs, are not likely to have a vitamin K deficiency... the administration of vitamin K is not supported by our findings..." Van Doorm et al stated in the Lancet article. VKR cited 21 peer-reviewed reports that had been published in prominent medical journals. All of them concur that policies that mandate the universal injection of newborn babies are not based on sound science. There has been much peer-reviewed evidence generated which questions the efficacy of routine vitamin K injections as sound public health policy.

· Naturopathic physicians and others who successfully adhere to a more natural approach to healthcare advocate that high-risk mothers should increase the amount of vitamin K available to the foetus, and then the breastfeeding infant, by eating adequate amounts of green leafy vegetables and other foods high in Vitamin K, such as alfalfa, brussels sprouts, cabbage, cauliflower, spinach, turnip greens, asparagus, oats and green tea.

· Commonsensically, VKR poses the question, "...how could God (or nature) have erred so badly as to give all newborn babies only an infinitesimal fraction of their required vitamin K? Surely the human race could not have survived to this point if all newborns were born with this deficiency and none being administered at birth until very recently." So ironically, when a Vitamin K deficiency does occur the probable cause(s) would be some other artificial, unnecessary interference, which just so happens to be something that one might say is fairly characteristic of modern medical treatments.

[famousmockngbrd]

Thank you very much, Crayon. Hmm, guess I won't be getting the Vit. K shot.

Now all I have to do is make sure I don't have an STD (unlikely, since I have been married for almost 13 years) and we'll be all set. :D

[pamamidwife]

While I agree with you Crayon, I did want to point out that the link between Vit K and childhood cancers has been disproven. It was the one study and they've since tried to replicate it, only have never been able to. They think that the sample for the study could have been influenced more from environmental factors based than on the Vit K alone.

Not that I think nature screwed up..... :)

[AugustLia23]

We aren't doing either here as well. The PP's gave very good reasons, and the only thing that I have to add is that with the eye goop, DS had nasty greenish-yellowish pus coming out of his eye for 5 weeks afterwards, and we have little doubt that it affected his eyesight at that time(thankfully he has no eye problems now). But we just found it completely unnecessary.

[crayon]

DS had nasty greenish-yellowish pus coming out of his eye for 5 weeks afterwards, and we have little doubt that it affected his eyesight at that time(thankfully he has no eye problems now). But we just found it completely unnecessary.

Same thing with my DD- but it lasted 3 months and she still has no tears when she cries :( (well she has had tears 5 times maybe, but that is not much for nearly 2 years)

[byfaith]

this is really a great thread. thanks for all the info for this lurker here@!

[odenata]

I'm due with my first and am leaning towards not doing either of these based on my research. I found this page to be a helpful compilation of Vit K facts: http://www.larkfarm.com/AP/vitamink.htm

What really upsets me in my research, however, is that I'm required by law to do the eye ointment. I'm planning a home birth, and if all goes well, I don't think it will be an issue with my midwife, but if I had to transfer for any reason, I would have to do it by law or be reported to CPS. I then researched it further and found that almost every state requires it by law, although my guess is that it is enforced more some places than others.

I saw one person posted that they had trouble with this - has anyone else?

~Juliana~

[crayon]

odenata- the law for the eye ointment is very scary. Not only the short term and long term effects but also the fear they put into parents. I believe you can get a waiver based on beliefs but that is something you HAVE to do a head of time. I was under the understanding when DD was born that I would just have to sign something if I had her at a hospital, and I ended up being transfered- but they had social workers from the MAT. ward in my room within a half hour of DD's birth telling me they would take her into custody and I would have to fight to get her back. That they would call a judge if I refused. And they were not joking.... So not only would they report you, they would get a judge to give CPS legal right to your child and then you would have to go to court and get your child back. Amazing huh... And so sad to do that to new parents who HAVE obviously educated themselves!

It just pisses me off!


Here is a link to FYT Michigan- it seems to have happend to many mamas in my state!
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=220439&highlight=eye+ointment

[famousmockngbrd]

I met with my CNM today (I am seeing a CNM and a DEM, this is a very well attended pregnancy, lol - and in case anyone keeps up with this stuff and is wondering, she is a different CNM than the one I was complaining about before. I love this midwife. ANYWAY -) and I talked to her about this stuff. She said the eye ointment is "totally unnecessary", in her words. She also said she only considers the Vit. K shot to be needed in the case of an "instrument aided delivery", i.e. forceps, etc. where there may be injury to the baby.

Just thought I'd pass that along.