So very depressing

[liliesandliars]

I frequent a site called Fertility Friend; I like it because everyone there is obsessed with making babies, so there's a lot of activity on the messageboards. But it's somewhat of an infertility site, as well... at least to a point. Many women there have tried so long to conceive, and have depended on medications to get pregnant... I do think they've forgotten the word "natural." They honestly seem to think that babies can't be created without medical help and attention.

They encourage each other to get C-sections and epidurals when they're completely unnecessary. When they list the detriments of these procedures, it's always because they are afraid it will HURT... not because it might interfere with their labor or harm their baby. I certainly don't think it's because they don't CARE, they just don't know, they don't know a THING!

*sigh* Most of them are going to formula-feed their babies. When a mother mentions the fear of leaving her baby to sleep alone in another room, the other members suggest good baby monitors she can buy... no one makes ANY mention whatsoever of co-sleeping. I'm afraid to voice my opinions to these women... I feel that I might offend them. They've never viewed pregnancy or birth or parenthood in any other light, nothing I say could reach them anyway. 'Tis not my job to explain to them that natural childbirth and parenting are real options.

So I just kind of click some other link... next page...

It's just so hard not to get depressed, you know? I'm preparing to become a midwife/doula in large part because of issues like these...

[*Amy*]

:bag:

[Slackermom]

I've had the same reaction to mainstream message boards. Epidurals are a given. C-sections no big whoop. Hospitals are the expected birth environment. I've never posted a response, because like the op, I don't think anything I could say would sink in.

[Kavita]

I charted there but never checked out the message boards--now I'm glad I didn't!! :LOL

[Barbee]

i completely agree. so many women after trying only for a few months decide just to take chlomid instead of looking at reasons why they may not be concieving. it's frustrating. i think it's just so popular now. here's a good story.. while in my doctor's office (my insurance won't pay for my midwife unless i see a doctor a few times) , the nurse was taking my blood and weighing me etc.. we started talking about how she's having a hard time getting pregnant. after talking to her for about 5 minutes, we realized that she was having some bleeding and cramps when she ovulates and so she would abstain during that time thinking that she was getting her period. after we talked about it for a while, she tells me that she was getting ready to start chlomid. shouldn't the doctor have figured this out???? people just want a magic solution instead of looking at things hollistically and then think we're ignorant!!!! i love the eye rolling i get when i tell people that i'm not having an epidural. they inevidably say "oh you'll change your mind when you realize how much it hurts". ugh!!! i'm not even telling most people that i'm having a home birth. i'll tell them after the birth. anyway, we're lucky women who know that this is a beautiful part of life and not a medical procedure!! cheers to us!!

[pixiedust]

I agree. I used FF for the charts when TTC but stopped visiting the boards for those reasons. I do visit another board, ovusoft alot because it also has a high precentage of women who have had a history of IF or RPL (recurrent pregnancy loss) so I like to talk to women who have been where I am. :) But, ovusoft has a high precentage of "crunchy" mom's.. those boards are what actually convinced me to not circ, nurse, homeschool, use diva cup, etc... :)

[liliesandliars]

I made a thread in FF asking women what kind of birth they were planning (an idea I got from this forum!). See, I'm hoping to start training to become a midwife/doula soon, so it's important to me to understand the reasons behind how women decide to have their babies. There were lots and lots of posts of, "Hospital with an epidural," or "Scheduled C-section." While I talked to those women, I happened to mention that I was planning an unnasisted homebirth for my baby. Many of the mothers proceeded to advise me against it... "Why don't you at least have someone on standby just in case?" It was difficult to explain to them why I'm going to do it... to women like them, it's difficult to explain an intuition, a feeling that it's simply right for me and my baby. One women proceeded to tell me that I should keep an open mind because there's no way for me to KNOW what might happen.

A UC philosophy is that what might possibly happen is simply not as important as what you believe will happen. It's a trust that they don't seem to have... and even more unexplainable to them is the idea that if something DID go wrong, I'd want to be the one who takes responsibility for it... I don't like the idea that I'd left my child's fate up to an OB. It must be an apalling concept... I think some of these women feel so much guilt from their miscarriages that they want none of the responsibility when it comes to their children's births... if something went wrong, they'd want someone to blame.

However, the FF community isn't as one-sided as I'd thought... after I mentioned that I was having a UC, the homebirthers started poking their heads out. I swear, they wouldn't come out and say how they were planning their births before because they knew what kind of welcome their beliefs would receive. Those women are quite curious about my decision... they ask me questions... :D

It's not as if I'm an expert on the subject, though. :p That's why I like this community... we can throw our ideas back and forth w/o someone telling us that we're putting ourselves and our babies in danger with our "closed minds." :scratch

[Queen of Cups]

Just in case anyone was unaware, according to the MotheringDotCommune User Agreement, users have agreed to avoid: "Posting to invite members to other boards for debate purposes or posting about discussions at other boards. This is to maintain and respect the integrity of our own and other communities." I'm certainly not about to tattle on anyone, but I just wanted ya'll to be aware that topics like this could in theory get you kicked off MDC. I know its really hard when upsetting things happen at other boards - I'm currently fuming about a situation at another board, too... :grouphug

[Montana Mom]

I wish you would say something. Just give your gentle .02. I fumbled my way to natural parenting and would have loved some info early on. I was raised very, um, conventionally and I just hadn't ever seen another way of doing things.

[Awaken]

I also used FF for charting but found the boards too hard to follow so didn't even get into it enough to know what type of views the posters have!

I do think you should mention briefly your way of doing things/views- heck, if they can post views that offend you and make you sad, why can't you post your views in a matter-of-fact, non-judgemental way? It just might start to make some people think, and who knows, it may spur them on to do a little research and realize that there are other ways of doing things than what our medical establishment dictates.

I know- I always wonder, when hoardes of parents are talking about CIO like it's a normal and expected part of childhood, and put them in FT daycare as soon as they can (of course I know some parents don't have a choice, I am talking about the attitude of what would I do all day with a baby, or why would I want to spend time at home- that's boring!!), or when they send the baby to the hospital nursery and don't even want to see it or breastfeed, etc- so this is the beloved baby you tried and tried to concieve and were so excited to welcome to the world? Sad, sad, sad.

Anyhow, that's my soapbox for today!

ps.-- I got the same crazy comments for having my son at a birth center w/o an epidural, and for YIKES going home THE SAME DAY! Everyone thought I was a young person who had no idea what I was getting into, and as soon as I actually went into labor that plan would change real quick.

[liliesandliars]

This will make me look ignorant... but what does CIO mean? What what does the FT before daycare mean?

[flapjack]

CIO = crying it out, or letting your baby cry to teach him that he is not in control. I've tried it- for night waking- and it doesn't work. FT daycare= full time daycare.

It's interesting what you say about the board though- given that I used their software for contraceptive purposes originally, then changed our minds and started trying for a baby, I kind of assumed they'd be- less mainstream, somehow. I had this link between quantifying cervical goop= slightly hippy= natural childbirth. :bag
Mary- how old were you when you had your son, if you don't mind me asking?? I got a fair few comments when I had Alex at 21...

[Queen of Cups]

I had my son at 24 - after I'd gotten a degree in Biology and been the manager of a museum for three years, and I still got comments about being "so young." I think its because I look really young, when I was at the museum people constantly thought I was a high-school volunteer!

[Awaken]

Mary- how old were you when you had your son, if you don't mind me asking?? I got a fair few comments when I had Alex at 21...

28- so not 'really young' ! I look young though and no one can believe that I'm 30 now. And also as a first time mom people would assume that the whole birth center/midwife/natural childbirth thing is ridiculously idealistic and that I'd wake up to reality after I actually went through it! Fortunately this is just my very mainstream co-workers though- after I had the baby I made lots of crunchy IRL and online mommy friends.

And yes, good point- I would also think that those who practice natural family planning/fertility awareness method to ttc would be a little more attuned to natural living. Surprising.

[mamatoady]

I think it's depressing to read a lot of these posts because you have grouped a large number of women together and see everyone as being "wrong" in their efforts to conceive and create the family of their choosing. I used FF, I also used clomid for 1 cycle to help me conceive with artificial insemination. I also cloth diaper, co-sleep, practice child led weaning and wear my babies. Why is your way the right way? Just because it's natural? A good doctor wouldn't perscribe clomid after just a couple months of trying to a perfectly healthy woman, so what makes you think all these women who do use "unnatural" methods of conceiving are just impatient dumb-asses? I take huge offense in the previous posts that would,in essense, suggest this of me. The 100% natural way isn't always necessarily the "right" way and the technology assisted way isn't always "wrong" Perhaps the messege boards wouldn't be so depressing to you if you opened your mind a little to realize that not everyone is on the same page as you and that's o.k. I understand your frustration, but many wonderful parents out there wouldn't even have the chance to be parents without all the charting/technology/medicinal stuff etc. Everything in balance....the universe will work it all out.

[saritabeth]

:clap :nod
People generally make their decisions based upon what is happening in their very real lives. I think it is great to educate about the full scope of what is out there...but one never knows why people choose what they choose.

It sucks that we mamas and women in general have to be so right and better than someone else. I find it to be very isolating.




I think it's depressing to read a lot of these posts because you have grouped a large number of women together and see everyone as being "wrong" in their efforts to conceive and create the family of their choosing. I used FF, I also used clomid for 1 cycle to help me conceive with artificial insemination. I also cloth diaper, co-sleep, practice child led weaning and wear my babies. Why is your way the right way? Just because it's natural? A good doctor wouldn't perscribe clomid after just a couple months of trying to a perfectly healthy woman, so what makes you think all these women who do use "unnatural" methods of conceiving are just impatient dumb-asses? I take huge offense in the previous posts that would,in essense, suggest this of me. The 100% natural way isn't always necessarily the "right" way and the technology assisted way isn't always "wrong" Perhaps the messege boards wouldn't be so depressing to you if you opened your mind a little to realize that not everyone is on the same page as you and that's o.k. I understand your frustration, but many wonderful parents out there wouldn't even have the chance to be parents without all the charting/technology/medicinal stuff etc. Everything in balance....the universe will work it all out.

[flapjack]

Thanks for a great post, Mamatoady. I agree with what you're saying, but sometimes it's hard to be supportive and tolerant of someone who does things so very differently, and sometimes openly criticises your way of raising children- maybe even having children. IOW, it's a hard lesson to learn.

[liliesandliars]

I suppose we all depress one another, then.

Natural parenting isn't as obscure an approach in America as it used to be, and yet... it still isn't popular. It's difficult not to "group women together" when they all tell you the same things when you mention aspects of natural parenting. I tell them I'm going to have an unassisted birth... they tell me that I'm putting both myself and my child in danger, and they feed me horror stories about how "I/baby would have died if we weren't in the hospital." I tell them I'm going to co-sleep with my child... they tell me I'll roll on her and increase her risk for suffering SIDS. I tell them I'm going to let her breastfeed as long as she likes... they tell me I'm going to spoil her, or keep her from developing properly age-wise. You try to explain some of the benefits of these practices, but they don't care for your reasoning... because their reasoning is that most parents do it their way... therefore, it must be right. It's difficult not to feel isolated from these women.

As for the age issue... heh. I'm young. I'm really quite young. A lot of women equate my ideas to the fact that I must be naive... or maybe just weird... It probably doesn't help me that I have blinkies on my sig that say, "Hippie Chick," and "Pagan Beauty..." ;)

[mamatoady]

lili,
I wonder why you open yourself up to the judgement,then. You probaly know there are "safe places" to talk about co-sleeping,CLW etc. If you are trying to educate the public then perhaps do it without taking anything personal and know who your audience is. It is very difficult to teach if you take everything the student says personally.

My mother knows we CLW and don't vaccinate,but I don't talk to her about it anymore because she thinks I'm crazy and doesn't want to learn the statistics. That is her problem,not mine...I am happy and confident with my decisions so I don't need her approving. When people say something negative about my choices in childrearing,I see it as their miseducation,not a personal attack.You might benefit from this philosophy....wouldn't you rather be happy than right?

Sarah

[heartmama]

I think it's fine for the OP to vent a little about extremely non ap friendly visits to other places. I know some people prefer we never express those frustratations but I for one am glad the OP shared!

[liliesandliars]

It wasn't an attempt to educate... as I'd said, I know this isn't my job (and by no means an area of my expertise... btw, what does CLW mean?) and I know it wouldn't amount to much. It was more of a desire to share my ideas with the women I'd gotten pg at the same time with, w/o the problem of dismissal.

It's just that I know that I would raise my child the same way they're going to raise theirs, IF I hadn't thought about why people parent the way they do and wondered if there was a better way. It kind of disappoints me to know that the same women who tried so hard to conceive their children are the same ones who don't question the concepts behind why they parent the way they do, or why they give birth the way they do. I know these things depend on what women have learned in their lives, and their own personal experiences, but... you'd think that the advent of motherhood would be a good reason to do a little research.

You're right, Sarah... I shouldn't let them get to me... still, when they tell me that the kind of parenting I've begun to see as best for me and my baby will inevitably be of harm to my child... lol... it's kind of difficult not to see it as an attack.

I guess I should only bring up those ideas in safer places, then.

[Emilie]

No- if we only bring up our ideas in "safe" places- we are basically saying that there is something "wrong" with what we do. Or that we have something to hide.
It is nice to talk abot these topics to people who agree with you- but if we really believe in what we are doing- wouldn't it be more beneficial to society as a whole if we introduced these concepts to others who may not be so enlightened.
I think that it brings a sigh of relief to most mothers when they find out that they do not have to listen to their babies cry for long periods of time- and that it is neglectful not to care for them and their needs.

[Awaken]

I think that it brings a sigh of relief to most mothers when they find out that they do not have to listen to their babies cry for long periods of time- and that it is neglectful not to care for them and their needs.

Thanks for that reply- I agree with you.

And on the above note- I have been feeling really sad about something that happened on a pregnancy loss board I'm on- some of the women have gone on to have babies after the loss, and of course the usual topic of how to get them to sleep at night comes up. Well, they are all talking about how their peds say they MUST do 'tough love' and not nurse the baby between 10 and 6 and let them cry till it's an appropriate time to get up, or some such nonsense. They are all saying how they let the babies cry for hours and know they need to 'nip this problem in the bud' and it's 'not acceptable' for a child to wake up at night. These babies are 8 months and younger.

It just confuses and depresses me terribly to know what these ladies have gone through in losing a baby and trying so hard to have another one, and how happy they are to have the baby, and then they turn around and not feed it and let it cry for hours???? I just don't get it! Usually I am never one to post my feelings, and I typically delete any group messages involving sleep because I just don't want to know about what people do to their kids at night- but in this case I was so saddened that I did post some (hopefully helpful) info and book/website recommendations to maybe let these moms know that there is another way! And then I promptly said goodbye and unsubscribed because I couldn't bear reading any more. :(

[bec]

CLW = Child Led Weaning

I frequent several mainstream boards (not FF, though. I found the format too clumsy). This is what I have taken from them. First, there are usually forums where I will feel more welcome (like a breastfeeding board) than others (like the Sleep Dilemas board). While I am certainly one of the more "out there" members on these boards, I have found a place there and am respected because I don't engage them on certain issues. I generally don't post when someone asks for advice on how to wean their child. Rather than laying down commandments (You must nurse your child until they start kindergarten, and cribs are evil), I present my own experience positively. I talk about the joys of extended nursing, and how convenient and snuggly co-sleeping is. I feel like, even if most of the people don't go to the lengths that I do, I am making a difference. Before I got there, no one spoke about nursing beyond 18 months in any kind of positive light, or how comfort nursing is fine. Now, there are a bunch of extended nursers, people sleeping with their babies, deciding not to wean at 6 months, etc. I feel like I have made a difference, by not making waves, but just presenting the ideas in a non-judgemental way.

The thing I have come away with in the last 4 years of parenting is that there are many ways to skin a cat. There are lots of ways to conceive, birth, and raise a child that end up with a happy, healthy, confident, effective adult at the end.


Bec

[pajara2]

A good doctor wouldn't perscribe clomid after just a couple months of trying to a perfectly healthy woman,


Well....I don't know if he's a 'good doctor' or not. But I have a friend on yet a different board, who's insurance would pay for 3 AIs at a Reproductive Endocrinologist. This is a young (late 20s, early 30s) woman, with regular cycles, and a reasonably lengthed LP, and no family history of Gyn issues. Her doctor said that since insurance would cover it, let's go full guns. She had a million fertility tests run, all normal, then was on clomid with trigger shots, then had IUI at the REs.

So I know of one doctor that will jump right on this band wagon.

BUT...I also feel that women are at liberty to be as educated as they choose, and make whatever decisions are right for them. I am happy for any woman that realizes her dream of becoming a mother, whatever path she chooses. That said, I stay away from the FF boards, because they also make me crazy. :D