parenting and spousal relationship

[sertsa]

Sigh. I want to preface this with an apology for any mispoken terms. I mean no offense.

I am worried about my relationship with my spouse. I don't know how much of this is relevent, but here goes.

We have three children a 6 year old daughter (my daughter from a previous relationship), a 2 year old son and a 5mos old. My spouse had trouble breastfeeding our two year old, and we had to go through the whole failure to thrive nightmare with social services and the county attorney (we officially lost custody for a week while he was in the hospital though my wife was never forced to leave his side - don't get me started). When we got him home one of the recommendations by the lactation consultant was that my wife use an SNS (yes she is a member of La Leche). Since that grudgingly pacified the doctor and the county attorney we went with it - barely escaping with our sanity and family intact.

Well, with our youngest we've been having the same trouble and as a consequence she has fallen back on using an SNS. Okay, I totally support her on this and whatever she feels works in the end is all right with me. Not surprisingly since the first incident my wife has become increasingly focused and protective of our two youngest children. Unfortunately, she seems to be withdrawing more and more from the rest of our family.

My spouse chose to be a stay at home mom and I chose to be a college professor so I could both be with my family and work in my field (it's hard to pass up an opportunity to be salary and get four months off a year). We have tried to divvy up the chores - I do dishes, she does laundry, we both take turns cooking, but I find myself increasingly doing everything around the home, scrubbing tubs, vacuuming, bathing the children even cooking most of our meals lately. At the risk of sounding too boo-hooish I feel like I am working two shifts. To make matters worse, we had a major disagreement with our landlord which resulted in us needing to find a new apartment and move in at the beginning of this past month. So we finally found a nice place with less than a week to go until we had to be out of the old, and after working all day I would come home, made supper, did dishes, bathed and tucked the children in bed then packed 'til the wee hours of the morning. My spouse managed to pack the whole time maybe two or three boxes out of our three bedroom house. Needless to say I was beat.

I tried hard to point out how important it was that we get our stuff packed, but she said (as she's been saying for some time) she just doesn't see how she can do any more than she already is. So not only did I pack everything, I also moved all the big stuff with the help of my brother who drives a big delivery truck which we could use. I had been hoping to have everything packed by the time he came to help so we could make the most of it, but since I was doing all of the packing I just couldn't get it done in time. As a consequence I ended up moving most of the boxes in the trunk and back seat of our crown victoria.

Unfortunately, because I was doing all the packing and moving (and unpacking - we ran out of boxes) on top of working and cooking and whatnot I just wasn't able to get all of our stuff out of the old place on time. As I'm sure you can imagine the landlord is less than understanding, and the whole episode has been quite frustrating. In fact I don't think I've thought more long and hard about divorce than these past couple of weeks. She however accuses me of being jealous of her attention to the children (an arguement I strongly dispute especially since outside of breakfast and lunch she doesn't bathe them or brush their teeth - she doesn't have time).

She seems especially unmotivated. Initially she was critical of the fact that I wasn't vigorously pursuing new options for moving, and then after we found the place she was all for capitulating to the landlord and staying where we were. I know she really hates the area we live in (we met while we were in college in Madison, WI) after the incident with our first son, but this was the first job for me out of college in my field (with all the benefits I mentioned earlier). Initially she tried to find work and make friends, but she turned down a position working for a local radio station (a position I felt was a great starting job for her since it was in her field) because the pay was "too low" (we're in a very rural area). Since then she's pretty much given up on looking for work, let alone making friends.

Sigh. Of course I'm rambling and oversimplifying. I'm just feeling really stressed out about everything. Now that we're in the new place I'm still unpacking, and making dinners, and washing dishes and after all of that I just feel like I'm not getting to spend any time with our kids let alone my spouse outside of supper (needless to say we haven't been very affectionate with each other in a while). I've suggested nights out and letting the grandparents watch the kids (no dice). I've encouraged her to help with the unpacking (no dice). I'm thinking therapy now, but I just want someone to tell me I'm not being a twit and there is something wrong. I just don't feel like we're a team on anything anymore.


:crying

sertsa

[mirlee]

Sertsa,

:hug
I was sorry to see that no one had responded yet. I stopped by earlier, but I wanted some time to think before I responded.

This is a tough situation. I know. I have been in a very similar situation for quite some time.
It is definitely frustrating to feel as though you are doing all of the work and your spouse, from where you sit, appears to be doing very little. As the mom side of the equation, I know that when my hubby said the same thing, I felt just the opposite. Our son is 2.5 and still nurses, these days I am starting think it is his way of manipulating but that is another thread. I on occassion feel chained to the chair with him. I have lists of things in my mind that I want to do when I get home from my university job. I am on the faculty at Pitt. I am supposed to be non-teaching faculty, but I do lecture in the history department and the library school when asked. I also lecture to the community, teach a continuing education course, and every other year I do an exibit for the preservation fair at the museum. I am the primary breadwinner these days.

We feel very stressed because my spouse went back to school after being downsized again, third time in four years. I often feel like I don't have enough time to get everything done that I feel needs to be done at home.

I think open communication is critical especially if both of you are feeling that you are doing a lot and feel the other doesn't seem to be doing as much. I am sure that each perceives the situation differently. It appears that you will need to be the one to gently open discussion. When you talk, try not be confrontational or to use phrases like, "I always" and "you never." That just makes the other person get defensive. If you start by addressing your feellings, saying things like, "Lately I have felt. . ." that could help. It is quite possible that she is feeling very overwhelmed right now with three children to manage. It also sounds as though she may have some issues with depression. She might also feel as though she is failing her family. She was practically forced into using an SNS. That can play havoc on a mom's confidence making her feel as though she can't addequately fulfill the needs of her child.

Another thing I would consider is, how little can both of you get away with doing in the house? Maybe you are both trying to do everything and nothing is really being done to satisfaction. When we stopped trying to have a tidy tidy house, things relaxed a little. So, the bathroom doesn't get done as often. But we make sure that the critical things are done, dishes, laundry, dinner. I do a load or two a night which tends to get put away in a day or so. Sometimes dinner is really quick, like something out of the box, but we figure gourmet meals aren't always required. Mac and cheese and green beans is made pretty frequently.

I hope things get better. I do know how you feel.

Please let me know if you want to chat.

Mir

[RachelGS]

This is very hard on a marriage. My husband and I have always had a loving, dynamic, connected relationship, but since we've had a baby, we're really struggling. Our daughter is only 5 months old, and we haven't had to face the kinds of situations you've described, but I'm sort of taken aback by how hard it is to maintain our relationship when we're so bone-crushingly exhausted. I have some faith that we will work it through one way or another, but I think it's very, very hard in the present. Sad. I love our baby more than I ever could have imagined. My rational self knows that adding a human to the world and to our family has just got to be a really intense transition, especially if it also compromises your essential survival resources (sleep, food, sex, relationship). But my emotional self is pretty terrified to feel short-tempered and frustrated with my spouse, and when I turn to my inner resources to marshal up the strength to address it, I come up empty.

[Irishmommy]

Has she seen a dr. lately. She sounds like she has ppd.

[MamaOui]

00000000000000

[mamaduck]

I have a 6 yr. old and a 2 yr. old. I find it very difficult to get more accomplished during the day than just chasing them around. If you were to add a 5 month old infant to the mix -- I can't imagine being able to accomplish anything more than caring for them. Especially if I were up nights. The kind of energy that children under 3 can sap right out of your bones is mind boggling.

I don't know you, and I don't know your wife -- so of course, I can't make any judgement for certain. But my inclination is that if your wife claims to be doing all she can, she is probably telling the truth.

That doesn't mean you are not entitled to feel exhausted and overwhelmed, and of course you are even entitled to vent about it and seek support. But honestly -- the first year of any baby's life is just like that for parents. One person holds the baby -- the other does everything else. The fact that you have a 2 year old as well makes things even harder.

[familyman]

try to stay away from the your-job, her-job trap. with kids involved things just need to get done. if she was well and you going through shit, she would be doing it all. it aint easy bro but divorce is not an option when children are concerned. i pray she snaps out soon.

[Britishmum]

I have a two year old and a three month old. If I manage to get them both bathed on the same day it's close to a miracle. If I get myself showered too, it truly is a miracle. Dont underestimate how difficult is is for your wife to just deal with three children, let alone moving house.

We had the chance to move since having the baby, and turned it down. We did capitulate to our landlord. Like your wife, I was all for capitulation. I just couldnt see how I could help pack and move with two young children.

That said, maybe she is suffering ppd. Why not take it from another angle. 'Honey, you seem so tired. I'm doing all that I can to help, but it doesnt seem to be enough. What can I do to ease your burden? How about I take the older kids out on Saturday for the morning and give you time with just the baby?'

Or focus on how she feels about herself. Take her shoppign for some new clothes - believe me, that soon pp, a new pair of jeans that 'fits' is a real novelty! Or a haircut. Or a manicure, or whatever will make her feel good.

I'm not negating the fact that you are tired, but believe me, nothing compares to the exhaustion of dealing 24/7 with a toddler and a baby. Also, nothing is more annoying or soul destroying than a husband commenting on what you havent done during the day, rather than what you have done!

Hang in there, and don't even think the 'D' word. Try not to make demands on your wife, call in all the help you can muster, and try to make her feel good about herself. If you can, ship one of her girlfriends in for a week to help out and give her some female company. Or a sister, her mother, or someone she gets on with well. (but not the MIL - LOL)

Good luck, I hope this helps you to get another perspective. Now I'll get dh to read my post ;) ;) ;)

[MamaOui]

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[Moon]

I don't think it's a question of either of you not doing enough. I think it's a question of way too much to do, and it's inevitable that some things are going to fall through the cracks.

Everything you've said points directly at post partum depression, to me.

Instead of trying to maintain the standards you had before, particularly if your wife's main concern at this point is to do nothing but *nurse nurse nurse* to avoid the nightmare you had to deal with when your first son was born, figure out where YOU feel comfortable letting some things go temporarily.

Frankly, just using the SNS was a time consuming, depressing thing for me. Every three hours (more, if you are worried the baby is getting enough) washing, pumping, mixing, temp control, getting the stinking thing attached to you, getting it in the baby's mouth. Holy Smokes. YOU try it. You'd be shocked at how difficult the thing is. And from personal experience, having to use this plastic tube because you can't nurse your baby completely on your own and you KNOW people are looking over your shoulder (or have and might again) would be enough to sink me into a depression, too.

The other Moms who responded are right. There are days with one infant and an 8 yo in which I was lucky to get everyone fed and clean. Never mind anything else.

This isn't indicative of the way your life is going to be forever. This is a recovery and adjustment period. It's absolutely normal, with the anxiety factor increased a thousand fold because of the Social Services issues.

Eat off paper plates. Eat take out. It's winter time, the kids aren't getting filthy, wash faces and bottoms every day and bath every other day. Or take them in the shower with you.

I don't mean to sound flip, but you get to leave every day. She's there 24 hours a DAY. And constantly physically involved. You get to go and interact with adults. You get lunch. Your schedule is probably pleasantly adhered to since no one poops or throws up or tantrums when they need something from you RIGHT NOW, but you're hooked up to the SNS and the baby just took it after 4 tries to get it in his mouth just right.

Please believe me, I'm not saying these things because I think you're doing anything wrong. You're not. I'm saying it because until you are constantly mentally and physically responsible to another person (or in this case, people!) 24/7, you have absolutely no idea how exhausting it is. Add the mental issues; fear, guilt, letting you down, and wham....

You sound like you are doing everything you can. I think the advice to get a sister or mother or girlfriend is right on. Let someone else help you get unpacked and take care of the bigger kids, even if it's just for an hour an hour whenever the baby naps so your wife can get a shower and that person can feed/entertain the older children. If that's not feasible, I really hope that you find the strength to ride this out, cause your family needs you. And frankly, do you think your kids would be better cared for if you weren't there? Or, conversely, do you think you could do a better job on your own? And last but not least, in a custody battle between parents who once lost custody for concerns about care, where do you think those kids might end up whilst you and your wife struggle separately to prove you are fit?

[XM]

I am so sorry that you guys are so stressed... my first impression is that she is depressed. It could be PPD or it could be a PTSD reaction from having ds1 taken for 'failure to thrive' and having supply problems this time as well... maybe she's scared of a repeat? Especially if she is in LLL she sees moms who make enough milk to make their babes plump... I know I would be bummed about my milk if I could'nt make enough, let alone if I had lived through the nightmare that you guys did last time.

You sound like a sweet guy... your love and concern for your wife comes thorugh in your posts. The other ladies have given some great advice and I hope it helps. Hopefully things will get more manageable for you and your family soon. But I would see if I could talk to someone about finding a counselor who is knowledgeable about PPD and similar issues. Even if she does'nt think she needs it, an hour each week w/o the kids where she can just bitch and yell certainly has it's own appeal ;)

As the other ladies said, it *is* normal for her to be exausted... what worries me is that she does'nt even want a night w/o the kids (although if my baby had been taken I would be touchy about that myself) and that it seems like she's not in real good touch with you emotionally... I know it's hard but it sounds like she needs a bit of help to to get to where she can be your partner again. Good luck to you and your wife.

XM

[CerridwenLorelei]

some PPD and possibly PTSD from almost losing your first one
She is probably thinking of nothing but getting the weight on the 5 month old
A trick I learned from an LC was to Pump and use the hindmilk only for a while.
It sounds like you are terribly stretched to the limits. Could you hire every now and then a "parents helper" from the college?
There are usually child development or teaching students that could use the experience and extra $$ that will not be too expensive
Maybe evey two weeks they can come in and do a deep clean and entertain the other children? This would give you a break as well.
The six and two year old are old enough to help with simple chores
Putting toys away, helping set the table,putting clothes in the hampers etc
I agree also that you both need to go see a counselor especially since there is the same issue here as with the 2 yr old
Has she also tried fenugreek or blessed thistle?
I know you have a lot on your plate already but could you take one weekend and do some batch cooking? then all you would have to do would be heat the meals up
and maybe make a chore chart for the both of you? I used to Mop every Tuesday for example ( now with four kids and two dogs I do a lot more than that LOL)
Simple things like scrubbing out the sink right after you wash your hands or tub after shower help too
feel free to PM me if you like
and I will keep the five of you in My thoughts :)

[buttercup]

I commend you for hanging in there and trying to work things out. You sound like a good father and a great husband.

I think your spouse has ppd, especially since she has no interest in participating in anything outside of the home. I had ppd when I stayed home w/ my dd. As much as I loved my dd, it was so stressful to be home w/ her 24-7. My sweet loving husband worked 8-12 hours a day. He'd come home and cook, clean and get other things done around the house just to help me out. But what I really wanted was a break from dd. I eventually became so depressed that I didn't want to do anything. This is ppd. Luckily, my husband hung in there and I finaly returned to work. It sounds like your spouse needs to find some other activity for herself (job, hobby, etc.) Is there anything she use to do, such has painting, running, gardening, woodwork, etc? Maybe you can push her into that if she decides she doesn't want to seek counseling. There are a number of chat rooms and message boards for women who suffer from ppd.

Good Luck...you are such a good person:)

[carmen veranda]

I am sending you and your family loving supportive thoughts. Many nice ideas in above posts. You do sound like a loving partner and loving dad. Hang on. Get her help if you can. This is imparitive. Your family has been through some very tough times and her mothering has been judged as being inadequate! Very inadequate! Your baby was taken away from her arms, because someone (s) thought she was doing usch a bad job she shouldn't even have her baby. And you have been through this too. I don't mean to diminish your feeling either. But, as a mom, I think we can tend to be so so hard on ourselves if we think we aren't doing what we should for our babies.
I have a feeling the "D" word was thrown out in a moment of frustration. I hope that you really aren't thinking this. How would she function and take care of your kids if you removed yorself from the picture? How would you work full time and take care of your kids, if you thought she couldn't shouldn't take care of them? Oh, I beg you, get all the help you can before you even let yourself go there!!! I can hear how hard this is for you. You are doing the work of several people. This is a time where you need to call in all your markers. You might think the house is too messy to even ask for help. Friends, family, church, neighbors could do something. Bring things down to survival level. Eat whatever is easiest right now. The kids will live on hamb. helper,ramen noodles, raw veggies, or whatever for awhile. Bath's? Skip them if you can, wash the bottoms and hands and faces. Yes paperplates. Help her reach out to others, or just reach out for her. She may be embarrassed to have someone do her dishes, but thankful, no doubt. I was very depressed after having a miscarrage. My young husband did not know how to help or what to do. He was supporting us, and everything else. One day I forced myself to get up, bathe and walked to meet him coming home form college. I was so proud, and expected him to be thrilled as well. He asked if I had done any dishes. :crying
Be careful with her feelings. She will make babysteps to be in a better place wtih your continued support, love and care. :grouphug to you and your kids

[snuffles]

Wow, Sertsa, just reading your initial post brought back tons of memories from my own experience. Dw and I have 3, ages 5, 2, and 10 mo. We also had to move with a young one, and every day coming home I felt like she never got anything accomplished. Heck, for a long time I just thought she sat around on her butt and let the kids go crazy. It took a vacation, with me around the kids 24/7 for a whole week to realize exactly what dw was going through. She is a stay at home mom who nurses the younger two and home schools the eldest, and I would be lucky to get a meal doing all of that!!! Alot of the advice on the other posts was very good, you just have to hang in there and try to understand that she is stressed out and exhausted and probably feeling a bit of depression from the whole nursing episodes. We might have dr trouble with our 10 mo old (bc she hasn't nearly doubled birthweight) but we never see a dr, so...

At some point she will be ready to "do something." Dw never went anywhere for 6-9 months without the children. But once they got a little older she would gradually become comfortable leaving them with family to go out to dinner, or do a little shopping...I'll even keep them for an occasional ladies night out.

All I know to say is that it is a really good sign that you even made the post b/c that means you care. Just let the whole divorce idea go and really focus on her and what you can do to make her life better...dw loves it when I just say "hey, go take a bath and i'll keep the kids." The little things really do help!! And once her life gets better, so will yours.

[Curious]

I agree that depression is probably an issue BUT as a low supply mom who went through the SNS wars, I can tell you that this is hugely consuming, as has been detailed above. The technical fumbling can consume a full day. The anxiety can consume your consciousness, constantlly watching the tubing, watching the supplementer contents go down. I had to continuously coach myself to not let the whole nightmare rob me of the joy my baby brought.

Not being able to breastfeed exclusively was devastating.
Nursing Dd as a low supply mom was a full time job. Even when we switched to haberman feeder bottles instead of the SNS, there was still all the fussing in order to do that, nurse, and pump. My world revolved around ounces per day. Just making a phone call seemed overwhelming. Now we are talking about TTC again - for a long time my low supply was a reason I didn't even consider TTC again. Doing all that PLUS caring for other children...I can hardly imagine.

On top of that, all that stuff with FTT, protective services, county attorney - I think I'd have half died - and half gone into tigress mode and shut out the whole world except feeding my baby.
I know you are under a lot of pressure. Moving is also a horrid experience. I had trouble enough packing up boxes as we got rid of breakables to baby proof. Talk to your spouse about depression, but also see if you can find it in your heart to give her a hug, offer her a footrub, and tell her you appreciate all she does.

[Curious]

Now that it's not the middle of the night I want to elaborate on a few things I said.

When discussing the possibility of depression with your spouse, there is being depressed because of a situation, as opposed to clinical depression, the disease. I really resented it when I was upset and references were made to "hormones." That was belitteling my cause for upset! It was not Dh who made the comments, lucky for him.

Setting up to supplement nursing takes a huge chunk of time, as I said. I resented that I had to do it because of the time it robbed me from just being with Dd. I can see that if I had more children, I would be even more upset at the loss of time I could be with the others, ie. Here I am in the kitchen fumbling with this tubing, when I could be holding the sleeping baby in the sling and playing with the 2 year old whose been feeling neglected all day.

I have been told that the lactaid is easier to use than the SNS. If you have the funds, you might want to look into this. There is a lot of discussion back and forth on the mobi list (mothers overcoming breastfeeding issues) at yahoo, as well as the lactaid site. The mobi site can also provide a sense of how consuming breastfeeding diffuculties can be, even when we don't discuss them much.

I hear that you feel you are doing a lot, but if you could do some of the work of setting up the supplementers, it might help your spouse feel more like a regular nursing mom. Doing all the setup is just another reminder that you've failed. Maybe you can negotiate her doing something you want, in exchange for you doing that.

Re: her working. I'm self employed in a home office, and worked much-reduced hours. Others may feel differently, but I don't think a low supply mom can make breasfeeding work if she is working (very much). As I said in my previous post, this is a full time job. It's really paid off for us that I set up my whole work schedule around our breasfteeding needs. And I still don't know how people work more than I did when they are up with one, much less two or more kids at night.

We used paper plates and were lucky enough to be able to hire someone to prepare meals and put them in the freezer. At that, I rarely managed to get them into the oven defrosted or out of the oven burnt (baby would fall asleep in my arms).

enough already; IL's just arrived...

[Lil'M]

A lot of posts suggested PPD or PTST. I remember reading a post sometime back about a mom who had low milk supply problems due to thyroid problems, which I believe can also contribute to sluggishness. It might be worth a trip to the doctor to rule out physical causes.

[Serenity~Serenade]

The aftermath of having Social Services in your life is in one word: devastating.

Your wife may well have lost all her confidence. She probably still hears the echo of the accusations and she probably worries constantly about a repeat. It is a de-humanizing, degrading experience.

I was a foster mom for three years, and I quit because of the way the system treats bio parents and foster parents (we're not even gonna touch on how crappy the foster kids get treated)

My advice? Can you guys get some counseling to deal specifically with the damage DSS did to your family?

I think you might be surprised at how much that has affected everything...

[mothergooseofthree]

Your situation makes me so sad. I suffered severely from PPD after ds#1 and it sounds to me as if your dw is suffering fro the same thing.

I have a step dd (I homeschool her) and two sons. They are 9, 4, & 11mos. Although I do not feel I suffered a major, intense battle of PPD like I did with ds#1, I do feel that I am battling a case a little less severe than what your dw may be experiencing.

To be honest, I was an accountant in a corporate office and the boss of approximately 30 at one time. Yes, I had my stresses, but at the end of the day, I walked away. Now, dh does not understand why the house is always a mess, dinner is late or nonexistent, and the laundry sits for days waiting to be folded. He does not understand how the same woman who handled all of the things I did at work can have such a battle as a sahm. But, with one nursing, one schooling, and another in a major training period, I feel that I am doing all that I can. On top of that, I feel guilty for not spending quality time with my kids. It is always hurry and finish nursing so I can get that load of laundry going, please do not ask me one more question, I am trying to plan the shopping list, etc....

Now, when I really sit down and evaluate things, I do waste some time. But, I am not motivated to be more organized. Oh, I say I want to be and I think....next week. But, I just do not have the desire to be better about it. That is part of how depression is, you just cannot make yourself do something or think something. It just does not work. You feel the sinking feeling, but you cannot stop it.

I could go on about how your wife may feel. But, I know that you really need to know what to do. My suggestions are: Put that D word out of your head..... Go see a doctor, there are medications, therapy, etc that will help....realize that this is not going to be forever (as a victim of ppd, I know that it feels as if it will never end)......please do not pressure her, when dh gripes at me, I withdraw instead of getting more motivated......let some things go, in 10 years what really matters, that the house was straightened up or dad played with the kids and mom felt good.....praise her (it sounds as if she needs it).......and remember a few things..she is doing the most important job in the world, there is nothing more important than raising our children. Remember she is not herself, but with help and time she will return. And, PRAY! I will!

[mamaduck]

Now, when I really sit down and evaluate things, I do waste some time. But, I am not motivated to be more organized

I've been thinking about this lately -- because its true for me as well. There is a lot of loose, unstructured time that I *could* spend accomplishing things -- however, once I actually try to do something I get absolutely frustrated with the children constantly under my feet and interupting, and it ends up taking all day just to finish one chore. So then I realize, "Oh, this is why I wasn't feeling motivated to do this!"

There are so many projects I would feel good about attempting if I spent the day alone -- but I know for a fact things would not go well if I tried doing them with kids to care for at the same time. And when I had PPD -- forget it!