Please share your beliefs about "traditional" marriage vs. shared household/family

[Ahappymel]

Hi all,
Since the parents as partners forum is closed, I'm not sure where to post this.
I'm putting it here in hopes of getting responses from moms and dads.
Long story short, I've been dating someone who seems to be keen on the idea of sharing a household and children but I have never heard him mention his thoughts on marriage. I want to know his philosophies about it so I wrote him a letter asking about his general thoughts about marriage and if he sees himself being remarried (he's been divorced for 10 years).
He admittedly has been very immersed in work and told me that he would respond to me when he had time to write his thoughts. I told him, no pressure...we could talk in person too. So we spent a great weekend together but he did not broach the subject.
Now I feel kind of bad like I created pressure somehow. I do not want to bring it up again but I do want to know his thoughts on the subject.
In the meantime, I'd like to hear other thoughts on traditional marriage...maybe why you decided to legally marry or not.
I'd appreciate any and all philosophies.
Thanks!-Mel.

[KalamazooMom]

Good question. We've been married 13 years now I guess and lived together for 5 years before that. For us getting married didn't really change anything about our relationship. And to tell you the truth I'm not entirely sure why we decided to do the legal thing. (Just went to a justice of the peace). I do sometimes think without the piece of paper it might be easier or more tempting to walk away during the rough patches? There is a really good essay by Catherine Newman in a book called "The Bitch in the House." She is not married to her long term partner and father of her 2 kids. She gives her justification for not getting married. I remember that one of her points is that since gays can't marry she felt it wouldn't be fair to all their gay friends to get married. Also, more interestingly, she says that by being married they get to "choose" to stay together. I thought that was nice point.

[papapoochie]

Hello Mel. I lived w/my girlfriend for 1 yr after dating for 1 yr. So, we got married after 2 yrs of being together. We both knew pretty early on that we were the ones for each other.

For us, the marriage symbolized life-long committment. We have several gay friends who have been together longer than us, so marriage, per se, doesn't really mean much, I guess. We've been together for 10 1/2 years.

But, marriage was important to us so we did it.

It sounds like you want to at least have a dialogue about it with your boyfriend, but he may be avoiding it? I'd be persistant in discussing it and see what happens. He may have strong feelings about it that he isn't discussing. Good luck.

[Ahappymel]

Thanks for the reponses!

It sounds like you want to at least have a dialogue about it with your boyfriend, but he may be avoiding it? I'd be persistant in discussing it and see what happens. He may have strong feelings about it that he isn't discussing. Good luck.
Hi there!
Yes, I definitely want to hear his general thoughts..I was sure to say that too...that I wasn't hinting or trying to create pressure...I just want to hear his philosophies/thoughts.
I am feeling a bit sad that he hasn't addressed my inquiry. Maybe he is just uncomfortable with the subject but even so, I'd like communication to be open between us to the point where he can tell me he isn't wanting to discuss it at this time. I have a feeling he is adverse to marriage because once before he brought up the subject of more children and I said that I want more children but also, for certain things to be in place (predominantly financial concerns but also, I want to be in a committed relationship). He responded, "I suppose you'd want to be married too! Hahaha!"
Assuming he is adverse, maybe he's afraid of dissapointing me or something...again I feel a bit sad if that's the case because I really want to be open to hearing him without judgement and I would hope he'd feel comfortable enough with me to be open about any subject.
I'm going to wait a little longer and see if he'll bring it up or continue to ignore it. That's important for me to know too...I mean, how someone deals with confrontation. It is more of an issue to me that a potential lifemate decidely disregards discussion of an important issue...even if it's not important to him, it is to me.
I'd like to approach it again with him if he doesn't bring it up...I think it's important for two people to know how they each feel about the subject.
Anyhoo...
Were there any reasons why some of you chose definitely not to traditionally marry and have an "alternative" family/household?

[Ahappymel]

There is a really good essay by Catherine Newman in a book called "The Bitch in the House."

P.S. I always love a good read and different perspectives! Just ordered a used copy on Amazon!

[Lynnseedoil]

I second "the Bitch in the House". I found it to be a hilarious and informative book of essays by women in different arenas of life just writing about "where ya' at?"

My DH and I got married after 2 years together. I think one of the big things for me was being part of a "family." I know that you don't have to be married to do that but... My parents got divorced when I was 2 and I have absolutely zippo relationship with my father. I had a different last name than my entire family (the morning after the wedding, I sat in a room of people and shared a name with everyone in the room for the first time in my life. it was very powerful for me) My husband's family are very united and very happy. I guess, in some ways, marriage to me symbolized becoming a part of that family too. It seems silly to see it all written out in those terms but that's part of the reason. Marriage did change our relationship some but for the better. "Forever" is a hard thing to get your mind around... but it really added a sense of permanency and unity with our families. (plus the wedding was really fun).

However, my mom's been divorced twice (both naaasty) and is now living with her boyfriend of 14 years. Even after all this time, they haven't dealt with a lot of their issues and there's always the stink of break-up. I think that, for them, marriage symbolizes surrender and revoking your "self". That's especially true for my mom. I'm not saying that I agree with these ideas, I'm just relating different experiences. For them, avoiding marriage means avoiding communication.

I think that marriage means different things to different people. I don't think that it's a pre-requisite to having a loving, healthy, secure family. However, there are issues (especially ones brought up by the gay community in the marriage debate) about hospital visitation, death rights, inheritance rights... stuff that sucks to think about but is a reality.

It's important to discuss it into the ground. It's not something that anyone should rush into. I think it's good that your partner is thinking long and hard about his feelings. But, I suggest that you tell him that you're anxious to open the lines of communication. Be honest about how you're feeling.

[tripleaces]

Well, although I call him my DH we aren't married and we're about to have two kids. It just hasn't been that important to us, although we call each other husband and wife, and to each other, we are married. We plan to do it legally soon simply because it's less complicated, plus I would like to some day have an actual wedding (never thought I would!), that would be nice. :)

His family doesn't quite know what to do with me. I'm not quite part of the family, but I'm not quite not, kwim? They introduce me to their friends as a "friend" which I find insulting, or they just call me the mother of DD. :irked:

[Ahappymel]

Keja,
Firstly, your baby's pic are great! What a sweetie!
Secondly, why can't they introduce you as his partner or (since you already address each other as husband/wife) call you his wife?
This has really triggered an extensive internal discussion for me. What it is that "marriage" means to me. Is the paper necessary. What would I expect legal marriage to offer that a spiritual/emotional one wouldn't.
I really appreciate everyone's insight.
There are great points here.
I really like that someone pointed out that the "official" marriage symbolized to them becoming part of a larger family and meant a lot to the two families merging.
I forget that sometimes emotional/spiritual commitments are not just limited to/affect two people. These commitments very much are inclusive of children, other family members, friends perhaps...
So I guess that the legal piece of paper doesn't mean as much to me as the affirmation of two people that they are making that commitment.
Since I am a single mama of a 4 yr old son, I think I would want him to bear witness to such a ceremony or vowed commitment (even if it's not "legal") because I think it might bring him comfort or understanding or meaning (the way traditions/ceremonies/sacred rituals tend to do).
Does this make sense?

[trmpetplaya]

Dh and I had a ceremony between the two of us and God, two years before we went to the justice of the peace to make it legal. We were still in college (free rides from parents would have been adversely affected had we gotten legally married at that point, but we knew we wanted to get married then - and we ended up not finishing college anyhow because of a lot of other reasons...) when we had our private ceremony. We dated for a year before that.

We got legally married only because it appeased our families and because we felt it would be in the best interest of our future children (not to mention in our best interest because we wouldn't be being judged for having children out of wedlock...) though I'm not quite sure why it would be better for them exactly...

My parents were a little weirded out by the fact that we didn't have a church wedding, though we are Christians. We felt that we had already had our spiritual ceremony and just wanted to make it legal. We did live together for about four months before legally marrying, but since we'd already been married for real for over a year at that point, we didn't consider it living together before marriage.

love and peace. :love

[rdl2k5]

I guess I don't understand why you wouldn't get married if you're going to live together in a married setting. I lived with my wife for 2-3 years before getting married, but we couldn't/wouldn't have stayed unmarried. I guess I just don't see the point.

Perfect example. 2 weeks ago, our M/M neighbors had a fight out in the yard, 2 days later a moving truck was there, the house was on the market and they went their separate ways. It's almost like not being married gives you the ability to say "screw it" at any time.

I'm not saying non married couples living together is wrong and living in a family setting, but what exactly is the point of not doing it? Insurance at work, social settings, etc you don't have to answer any questions. It seems like the natural progression of a relationship. (Remember you're in the dad's forum, and I'm not trying to be PC about the same sex partner issues)

[orangefoot]

I had 2 dc when I met my dh. I knew he was the one but we rubbed along fine and moved in together after about 2 years or so. I thought that we would just stay like like that for a while, but then we started talking about adding to the family. I knew that he didn't want to have a child without us being married but his proposal caught me by surprise!

He wanted to do the 'right thing' in the eyes of everyone. He talked to my parents and assured them that he would always consider my children to be his too. It put my in-laws in their place for a while because they had all been waiting for him to come to his senses and leave me for the girl of their dreams.

So we were married for the purpose of showing the world what we already felt about each other. Our love was unchanged by marriage, but we let everyone know about it which is what I understand the legal ceremony was for back in the old days.

[Mama2RMM]

To have children, and not be legally married just doesn't sit well with me for many reasons. If something ever happened to me, I don't worry about Rachel's well-being. My husband has the "law on his side" being both her father and my spouse. There would be no question of her gaurdianship. There would be no question about distribution of my assets. There would be no question about Rachel's medical care or day-to-day care.

These are also some of the best reasons to legalize gay marriage in my opinion. I think everyone deciding to raise children together should be afforded equal rights regarding the child, for the sake of the child.

In a non-traditional family household, you are not granted these rights and that's scary if anything were ever to happen to one partner.

[Ahappymel]

These are also some of the best reasons to legalize gay marriage in my opinion. I think everyone deciding to raise children together should be afforded equal rights regarding the child, for the sake of the child.

In a non-traditional family household, you are not granted these rights and that's scary if anything were ever to happen to one partner.

:clap :clap :clap

You make good points.

[trmpetplaya]

:yeah:

[Jaydedeyz]

I think all of the PP's have made some great points in their own ways.
MY DP started an IM with me in Oct. of '00. We met face to face [at my mom's house,surrounded by my siblings,all 6 of them],and I asked him to date [go steady] with me that night,on our first meeting and our first date. We knew we were the ones for each other,there was never a doubt about that. We're polar opposites,and that's a great match for us.
I found out I was pregnant in Oct. of '01. Our first son was born that Dec. [Yes,I was 7 months pregnant when we found out about him,LONG story.]
So when I told him I was pregnant,he did the "right thing" and took me out for us to pick me out an engagement ring. HE INSISTED. So fastforward 2 yrs.,we've since then had DS#2 as of 4/19/05,and we're STILL engaged. [He's since then bought me a bigger,more expensive engagement ring,again HE INSISTED.]
We discussed getting married,both before and after we discovered my hidden pregnancy,but it wasn't something we felt strongly about hurrying. [We lived together for 6 months before the 1st pregnancy.] Both mine and his parents have been divorced,so we both feel strongly that marriage is supposed to be a permanent bond,and not something to be taken lightly. But we both feel that a "legal" marriage is over restrictive and binding.
We prefer to remain engaged for now,simply because that's what's working for us so far. If/when we decide we'd both prefer a legal marriage,we'll pursue it. But for us it's been all about mutual agreement.
I think people who are married [not all!] feel that that contract between them is so unbreakable,that even if one of them commits adultery,the other might allow it,simply because no one goes into a marriage and expects to be divorced. But we feel that being engaged [which is a commitment to each other] means that we ARE commited to being with each other,but we also have the feeling of the freedom to choose to leave,if we wished to. [Although neither of us would ever ACTUALLY consider it,it is a nice feeling to know that there's an opening,if needed.] We're both very independent people,and knowing that we have the option of bondage or freedom [marriage was originally a form of bondage,BTW],that's a sense of security for us.
There are no issues with us about who gets the kids if I die,what happens if/when we split,etc. We've both agreed that if I die,he's the legal father [signed the parentage certificates at birth],he'll take them. If he dies,same with me. As for any financial assets,etc.,they'll be devided as needed,so that I can provide for our children [since we both agree that wherever I'm at they'll be with ME].
So marriage is not an essential thing for us,yet. Right now we're comfortable were we are,if it becomes important,we'll get married then. To begin with it was a freedon issue,but after having 2 kids,it's become more of a financial issue [since we can't afford a wedding,and don't want a casual meeting at the court house].
Whatever the reason[s] though it's very important to have many open discussions about these things,they WILL be important one day. I think you should gently encourage him to be open with his ideas about this to you. Maybe he's still stinging from his divorce? Maybe because of that he now has an aversion to legal commitments? Whatever the reason,he's neglecting your need for reassurance,which should be confronted.
Best of luck!

[fugeeo]

halo,
i think youve seen some of my posts.
some of my answers are similar to this one.
but also different ...

my story is like this.
i am a second child of a divorced mother and father.
they were divorced at my age or 4. the age where
cognitive trust begins to develop. and my parents
did not speak a kind word to each other until i was 30
years old, only because i asked them to talk.

at age of 30, i was overcoming a bout with mental
illness, diagnosed schizophrenic. however, i am now
mental illness free, haven't been on meds for over 3
years now. part of the reason i asked my parents to
talk, was because i had to overcome my illness, and
have them confront their fears of each other in front
of me. it did alot, for one, it got them to see my
perspective, here they both were children of parents
never divorced, lived all their lives together, and
yet they were divorced, and never looked back.
and they would think in their own way, and they could
never see my perspective, nor my sister's.

marriage is a topic that really will take time for me.
in life, i also believe in reincarnation, and so, perhaps
some pains seems to be cycling, not changing,
so if in lives, marriage is not answering any questions,
then, there may be sought another answer.

i came to the caribbean just a year ago. and part of
the reason i left was because i could not handle being
around my stepfather. here is a case that appears like
my mother has chosen someone almost exactly like
my father, and has ended up in the same situation.
but perhaps now, she does not have the same stesses
that birth can bring as when my mother and father
had my sister and me.

i met a woman here almost a month after i came here.
and we became close. she too is from divorced parents
and had a life with her parents that was somewhat different
than mine, in some ways more brutal, in somes ways
a little bit better.

to me, marriage is like something you do because other
people do it. it is not necessarily from your heart, but
you do it because society says it is the right thing.
i can't buy into that until i feel in my life that i am ready.
my gf has similar feelings.

my gf and i are having a baby this month, we are living
together, and we support each other. when i found out that
she was pregnant, i had been reading genesis in the bible.
and there it says to marry she that you come unto
(biblical talk for having sex).

i am also friends with many east indians. and for a while
i was visiting a hare krshna temple to find out about indian
marriages. the guru said something about marriages that
really struck to me a tone. he said, that there are three
kinds of marriages. one, i do not remember, two, there is one that is romantic, and three, there is one done in memory of god.

the romantic one, is one that never lasts, and these are like
the 40% divorce rate that you will find in the u.s. because
god is not a part of it, there is no higher bound to keep
the couple together. the first impulse is the romantic impulse
which is something that does not last, it is like eating a chocolate
bar, and then getting a rush from it, but it is not
the same as eating the staple that makes life go on and on.
in memory of god, there is a higher power that teaches people
to learn compromise, detachment from physical life, communication
through the higher power to each other. it is not communcation
one to one with your partner, it is communication that is
through god, one to one with god. that is the difference.

this does not mean that one should enforce their religion upon
another to understand one another or have the same views
about religion or spirituality. in respect, it should be
solely the communication with god that creates the understanding
for your partner. for my relationship with my gf, sometimes i
already feel married. to me marriage is the part of me that
i give, and she also gives to be a part with me. we are companions
to raise our child, to nurture each other, and to raise each
other. i do try to show her the aspects of god that i know
to overcome communication barriers. god has given me
strong communication, so i share this supreme life with her.
i seek truths, and this leads me.

refugio

[Dov]

My mate (legally my "wife") and I have divergent opinions on this one. Par for the course with us :bouncy

I have issues with "traditional" notions of marriage, right down to the terms "husband" (implying someone dependent that needs a guide/parent) and "wife" (implying that someone is in need of support by a less-equal other). My mate/wife thinks I'm completely whacko on this, but then again, I have all sorts of whacko theories like the Rose Parade is merely a subconscious communal presentation of the village virgin ("flowered") females to male communal lust (for flushed, de-flowering before the voyeurist witnesses, thus the use of petal adorned "floats") and therefore counterproductive, oppressive, unevolved and sexist. She thinks I'm crazy... and I am.

However, as a legal matter in the U.S., marriage was the only option for the sake of our kids' preservation of rights as well as our own for each other. I see the willful, intentional, conscious choosing of a mate via pair-bond as the real substance of a "marriage" be it a legal marriage or a non-traditional bonding. I loved fugeeo's description of the romantic and the memory-of-god relationships. If I was more evolved as a human being, I could see multiple serial-monogamous pair-bond matings over a lifetime as an ideal situation. Personally I think it's the authority of a democratic, proportionally-represented government that must obey the will of her citizenry in all of its diverse forms in the conferring and preservation of legal rights (inheritance, succession, etc.). IOW, the govt, being of the people, by the people and for the people, ought not to be in the business of depriving folks of human rights but in the business of perserving them regardless of merely one cultural tradition's whim. But just try to get that to fly in 'Merikuh where Puritanical Pilgrim myths and the Second Wave aristocracy is in utter control.... it's no wonder gay marriage is having a hell of a time getting brought up to speed or being fought with ruthless merciless venom. And of course, I am crazy and I'm my mate's "husband" (where's the "shudder" emoticon?) at the same time.

[Ahappymel]

I love all of these perspectives.
I also got my answer from my former boyfriend.

Needless to say, we had bigger problems than figuring out if we mutually were seeking marriage or a pair bond.

All of this has definitely shed a lot of light on what I am seeking.
I also bought "Bitch in the house" and am loving it! Thanks for the suggestion!

Mel.

[KalamazooMom]

Sorry to hear this did not work out well for you. But good that you got it on the table and settled sooner rather than later.

[oksya]

Hi all,
Since the parents as partners forum is closed, I'm not sure where to post this.
I'm putting it here in hopes of getting responses from moms and dads.
Long story short, I've been dating someone who seems to be keen on the idea of sharing a household and children but I have never heard him mention his thoughts on marriage. I want to know his philosophies about it so I wrote him a letter asking about his general thoughts about marriage and if he sees himself being remarried (he's been divorced for 10 years).
He admittedly has been very immersed in work and told me that he would respond to me when he had time to write his thoughts. I told him, no pressure...we could talk in person too. So we spent a great weekend together but he did not broach the subject.
Now I feel kind of bad like I created pressure somehow. I do not want to bring it up again but I do want to know his thoughts on the subject.
In the meantime, I'd like to hear other thoughts on traditional marriage...maybe why you decided to legally marry or not.
I'd appreciate any and all philosophies.
Thanks!-Mel.


I’ve met my boyfriend through the internet!!! :LOL
Yes that’s true ! :o
We were together for three years and now we are family. we are two month marriaed people now!!! And now we are about to have kids! We are very happy and thank you interrnt! :throb

[damedame]

Hi all,
Since the parents as partners forum is closed, I'm not sure where to post this.
I'm putting it here in hopes of getting responses from moms and dads.
Long story short, I've been dating someone who seems to be keen on the idea of sharing a household and children but I have never heard him mention his thoughts on marriage. I want to know his philosophies about it so I wrote him a letter asking about his general thoughts about marriage and if he sees himself being remarried (he's been divorced for 10 years).
He admittedly has been very immersed in work and told me that he would respond to me when he had time to write his thoughts. I told him, no pressure...we could talk in person too. So we spent a great weekend together but he did not broach the subject.
Now I feel kind of bad like I created pressure somehow. I do not want to bring it up again but I do want to know his thoughts on the subject.
In the meantime, I'd like to hear other thoughts on traditional marriage...maybe why you decided to legally marry or not.
I'd appreciate any and all philosophies.
Thanks!-Mel.

I wouldnt have the alarm bells ringing even if ur partner was reluctant to get married. Hes been divorced before and divorces aint easy going. On top of that, getting married post a divorce might seem like a bad omen or something because his last marriage ended in failure. Maybe hes just happy with how things are and thus wants to keep it that way, and if that seems to bring extra stability then u cant go wrong with that.

[FrozenMommy]

Hi Mel....
Our story...we got married purely for the legal aspects, as my husband was entering the military and there was no feasible way for me to follow him around the country unless I was legally his wife (plus it makes so many things easier as the military is very traditional). But if not for that, we would have just continued to live together....we had been living together 3 yrs when we "made it legal" and were perfectly content with that. I agree that NOT getting married means that you are more deliberately choosing to stay together, since it's that much "easier" to break up (no paperwork!).

Your partner may be squeamish about marriage, but the funny thing is that there is NO difference between how it feels to be married and to live with your partner long term IMO...takes the same amount of work and heart...so if he's squeamish it's either a reluctance to committ - to put it in writing, so to speak - or he just doesn't like "legal" marriage which I happen to agree with.

Hope it works out for you!!

[changa]

For the OP, take my advice witha grain of salt, sin I don't have any experience with situations like yours. I am in a traditional marriage, and am happy that way. I would also be fine with living together without a legal document, but the one thing I would not be ok with is not talking about it. I talk about anything and everything with my wife, and that's a deliberate and sometimes difficult thing. I would first talk to him about talking, leave marriage out of that conversation.

His family doesn't quite know what to do with me. I'm not quite part of the family, but I'm not quite not, kwim? They introduce me to their friends as a "friend" which I find insulting, or they just call me the mother of DD. :irked:This stood out to me. Why does it bother you to be called his baby's mommy rather than his wife? It's a legitimate dilemma for them, since you aren't his wife by their rules.

[Ahappymel]

OP here.
My SO and I have discussed the issue quite a bit since I posted this thread originally.
And what we've discovered is....A LOT.
For one, I think I've really placed a lot of meaning on the ceremony and contract of marriage in the past...some realistic and a lot of unrealistic expectations. For one, I realize that I equate legal marriage with commitment. And I've had to question that.
Commitment is commitment is what I've arrived at. Couples can be entiredly committed emotionally and that is their bond. Not a piece of paper.
He and I have decided that emotional marriage is what we seek more than anything. We each desire to be with one another out of choice and free will and desire. Frankly, I don't know that legal marriage is the best route for us anyway due to financial issues. I like the idea of a commitment ceremony if we are inclined and rings to signify our commitment outwardly to others.
"This stood out to me. Why does it bother you to be called his baby's mommy rather than his wife? It's a legitimate dilemma for them, since you aren't his wife by their rules." I do understand the point of this statement. And I think because we know that our families and others might not take us seriously, we've considered telling them that we are husband and wife now, so that they'll leave us be. However, I don't know that this "white lie" strengthens our cause (that commitment exists independently of legal marriage) for ourselves or for others (like gay couples and other um-legally married committed couples).