GD perceived as lack of morals -- need to vent

[**guest**]

Yesterday i went to a park with a friend of mine (read 'former' friend) and her 3 year old daughter. Ada got protective of Max when Juliana tickled him. Ada hit Juliana with her teddy bear – not enough to hurt her, but enough to show her displeasure, and Juliana started bowling right away. I did what I usually do – I tried to draw Ada’s attention to how upset Juliana was, and that hitting hurts. I apologised to Juliana, and asked Ada if she could figure out how to make Juliana feel better. Ada suggested giving her ice cream or cereal, and I could see she was feeling bad about what happened. Lena kept asking her in an upset tone of voice WHY DID YOU DO THIS? I did not appreciate Lena intervening, but did not think much out of it.

Lena and I are not very close friends, but she is one of the 2 Russian-speaking moms that I know, and from time to time we do get together, though our parenting is not exactly on the same page.

When we got back to Lena’s place she offered some sweets for tea, and as Ada cannot have any sugar, she asked to smell the sweets, as she usually does. Ada loves smelling things, she is not upset by the fact that some things are for adults only, and she was not showing any signs of distress. At that point Lena told her that the sweets tasted horrible – I guess to deter Ada from eating. I saw that Ada was about to react to this – she stared at Lena in confusion. Jokingly I told Ada that Lena was only joking, and that the sweets tasted really good, but they had too much sugar in them, and thus were only for adults. Lena got visibly upset and left the table, saying that she only wanted to help me out.

Still thinking that she was upset over the sweets, I went after her, telling her that I was sensing Ada’s confusion, and that she does know that sweets do taste good. I apologised.

Lena exploded that she did not appreciated being called a liar, as well as she did not appreciate her daughter being ‘beaten up’.

I apologised again, said that I felt awful that Ada hit Juliana, but that they are 3 years old, and things happen, besides, Ada felt bad too. Lena pretty much yelled at me that I never told Ada that what she did was bad, that she never apologised, and that this way she is never going to learn, because she has no one to model morals to her.

Thankfully at that point Max was asleep in the wrap, so I grabbed Ada, and we left. Ada was upset, and did not understand what happened, and we had a nice talk about rules and families, and how different people have different rules and expectations.

I just felt so awful. It occured to me that I could have talked to Ada about apologizing after the moment had passed, because she is normally willing to make amends after an incident is over. But I got chatty with Lena, and forgot to bring it up again.

It felt awful to be perceived this way too, as though I did not care, and was condoning Ada's behaviour. While in fact I felt Ada handled it all pretty well. Considering she had a very busy and tough morning -- 3 taxi rides, going to the hospital with me and to a health center, waiting in lines etc. Then Juliana was not in the mood to play with Ada, and Ada was disappointed.

I know I did everything right, and that I should not care what others think of me, but still I have this sinking feeling in my stomach. She was a mom of a 3 year old, and she could not related? So what others must think when we GD?


I was so upset, i could not even sleep. to make it worth, my internet was not working, so i could not even post right away. just need hugs.

[abac]

You did nothing wrong. It's so hard when others criticize our parenting decisions. :hug Maybe this woman was having a bad day? Is this typical behavior for her? It's always hard to see our children hurt by another child, whether it's age appropriate behavior or not. I know you said your dd didn't really hurt her dd, but since she said her daughter was "beat up" it sounds as though she was feeling upset about the incident. I'm not saying this excuses her yelling at you, but am just wondering if this was an unusually bad day for her. I can't imagine any of my friends yelling at me. :hug :hug

[irinam]

A-w-w mama, I totally can see myself "getting" in a situation like that.

Being "Russian" myself (actually Ukrainian, but in US we all "automatically" are Russians :LOL ) I see my friends and family thinking the same way. It is one more example of how deep the punitive ways are ingrained in us :(

I second the notion that you did nothing wrong, and as a matter of fact did everything right :thumb Many of us can benefit greatly in dealing with our own low self-esteem and learning how to see things from different points of view...

Hugs to you, I would have been stressed out as well.

[chicagomom]

Hugs to you, Irina. Sounds like you handled the situation quite well.

Combatting others' expectations about how WE, as parents, should react when our child does something THEY feel is inappropriate can be one of the most difficult parts of GD. When ds hits or pushes, I feel the heat automatically ON me to shame and punish, punish, punish - coming from a very punishment-and shaming-oriented upbringing it's difficult to resist this expectation, ESPECIALLY when it is in response to something physical like hitting, pushing or toy grabbing.

I have to remind myself that *I* am in charge of my child, not the other parent. And yes, my choices will affect my relationships with others. But I guess in the end it's healthier for me to surround myself with people who support (or at least won't openly criticize) my parenting choices.

[**guest**]

i am torn. i want to meet other russian /somewhat russian :LOL moms, but are there out there who GD? seriously? i am even considering putting an ad in a russian newspaper.

i am actually part ukrainian -- my grandma was from Romny, but i was raised Russian / jewish -- she was relocated to Latvia after ww2 and refused to speak ukrainian at all.

i met another russian mom, and i was so excited about it -- she seemed AP etc. but she started referring to Ada as 'badly behaved' and this was just awful. especially since she has never witnessed Ada 'misbehave' -- just the usual 3 y o stuff, but nothing major.

ada is such a contrast to J -- spirited, strong-willed, stubborn. J is easy going and cautious. i guess ada's behavior may seem as 'negative'. especially by contrast.

oh well. i am getting over it.

irina -- hugs to you too.

[cmb123]

Just to look at the other side for a minute.... we have friends who's child has many, many times physically hurt my children. The one thing that drives me nuts is that the parent never seems to care. For instance (this is just the one that always for some reason stands out in my mind, even though it was MANY years ago) my then 2.5 year old was sick, but we had a group of people over. My dd was sitting on lawn chair, she had a fever, and was just resting. The "child in question" came over, and punched her in the face! Totally out of the blue, for no reason than his own thrill...so...Mom comes over and starts talking to him..."how do you think she feels? Look at her, what do you think she is feeling...blah, blah , blah..."
Honestly, a lot of what she was saying to him was good stuff..BUT, not once did she say "NO" "Hitting is NOT OK"
As a parent that really ticked me off.
Maybe your friend just wanted some kind of acknowledgement that you recognized that you child hurting hers was not OK. It's kind of a primative proctective kinda thing, and maybe she just didn't feel like you cared that her kid got hurt by yours.

[writermommy]

When my oldest dd was 2, we belonged to a play group. She hit maybe twice in the year we belonged to the group. However, I knew from observing that these moms wanted to see kids punished for hitting. So, when she hit, I took her outside to talk to her. I told her that hitting is not allowed and we talked for a minute and then just walked for five or so minutes. When I came back inside, I told the other moms I took care of it and it wouldn't happen again and asked if the child was ok.

This seemed to satisfy them and I could talk to my child alone without anyone listening in and nitpicking how I chose to talk to her. Again, she was rarely the hitter, but I felt that when she was, it was my business to talk to her. I also prefer to do it in private because it is less shaming for the child.

[**guest**]

Just to look at the other side for a minute.... we have friends who's child has many, many times physically hurt my children. The one thing that drives me nuts is that the parent never seems to care. For instance (this is just the one that always for some reason stands out in my mind, even though it was MANY years ago) my then 2.5 year old was sick, but we had a group of people over. My dd was sitting on lawn chair, she had a fever, and was just resting. The "child in question" came over, and punched her in the face! Totally out of the blue, for no reason than his own thrill...so...Mom comes over and starts talking to him..."how do you think she feels? Look at her, what do you think she is feeling...blah, blah , blah..."
Honestly, a lot of what she was saying to him was good stuff..BUT, not once did she say "NO" "Hitting is NOT OK"
As a parent that really ticked me off.
Maybe your friend just wanted some kind of acknowledgement that you recognized that you child hurting hers was not OK. It's kind of a primative proctective kinda thing, and maybe she just didn't feel like you cared that her kid got hurt by yours.


isn't 'hitting is not okay' implied when you say 'look how hurt the child is'?

honestly i don't remember if i said those exact words, but i certainly meant it, and dd certainly got the message.

'hitting is not okay' is basically shaming your child -- they already know they have done something wrong, and you just rub it in.

now the question is, should i shame my child for the benefit of the other parent? why?

[writermommy]

now the question is, should i shame my child for the benefit of the other parent? why?

I vote, no you shouldn't. That's why I took my dd outside on the times that she was the aggressive one. Speaking to her in front of others seems to open the door to suggestions, that in my case, were unwarranted and unwanted. Speaking to her alone is less shaming because it is private between you and dc. An added benefit is you aren't under the microscope either. JMO

[**guest**]

I vote, no you shouldn't. That's why I took my dd outside on the times that she was the aggressive one. Speaking to her in front of others seems to open the door to suggestions, that in my case, were unwarranted and unwanted. Speaking to her alone is less shaming because it is private between you and dc. An added benefit is you aren't under the microscope either. JMO

we were out in a park. if i had known how this situation would escalate, i would have carried her to another bench to talk to her. as it was happening, however, i did not think twice about the situation -- i was uncomfortable with the other mother interrupting me to almost yell at Ada 'why did you do this', but i just decided to let it go, i just felt i needed to talk to Ada about what happened, the way i normally do.

i think it is a good idea to talk privately. when i talked to her, i sat on the bench between my friend and Ada, with my back to the friend, so that i was shielding ADa a bit, and talked to her quietly. the other mother kept leaning over me to interrupt.

[writermommy]

I think you did fine, considering the circumstances. We all have a tendency to over react when our child is injured. You said your dd hit with a teddy bear, so I doubt the other child was really "beaten up". I have seen the most GD moms with their own kids want the other child punished when their child is the injured party.

If it's just a misunderstanding, it may blow over. But if it's a fundamental difference in parenting beliefs, this is harder to resolve. Hugs to you and your dd :hug

[canadiyank]

isn't 'hitting is not okay' implied when you say 'look how hurt the child is'?

Maybe - I see the first statement as a value judgement and the second as an observation/teaching of empathy. I think sometimes kids need to see the connection between their actions (hitting) and the consequences (hurting), kwim? (I do understand that you believe your dd understood the connection, likely from previous occurences of you teaching her that). I would have prefaced what you said with, "Stop! Hitting hurts." and then what you did...I thought how you modelled empathy and apologizing was great!

'hitting is not okay' is basically shaming your child -- they already know they have done something wrong, and you just rub it in.

I disagree. For some children perhaps it is rubbing it in (and it sounds as if your dd is in that category...), for others I think it is simply setting a boundary and reminding them that it's not ok to do that.

now the question is, should i shame my child for the benefit of the other parent? why?

I think you have touched on the biggest point of GD vs. punitive thinking - and you are up against the wall of punitive thinking with that mom - a punitive parent believes that child needs to be punished/shamed for what she did in order to "learn better" for next time, that a lesson isn't learned if it doesn't "hurt"...you disciplined your child in your way, and I think you handled it very well, but b/c you do not punish it is never going to be seen as "enough" by a punitive parent b/c she did not "pay." Hope that makes sense. :blah

Honestly, I sometimes say things that are more punitive/shaming when I'm around non-PD people b/c somehow my brain thinks that will show them I *do* discipline. I am working on that, that I don't have to "prove" anything, but it's hard b/c I feel like I'm against that punitive wall and somehow have to show that you can have well-behaved kids even though I don't punish...ugh. A work in progress... :innocent

[cmb123]

isn't 'hitting is not okay' implied when you say 'look how hurt the child is'?
I work with kids this age in large groups, and have found that being direct makes more sense to them than "implying" something. I say what I mean. ("your angry" "You want xyz to play with you" "let's use words to tell her how you feel" " You hurt xyz, what can you do to help her feel better?") Just moving on without even acknowledging the hurt child (even if mom appologizes to the kid if the "hitter" is to worked up or whatever) puts a little bit of closure for the one who got hurt. It lets THEM know too, that it is not OK for someone to hit them.

now the question is, should i shame my child for the benefit of the other parent? why?

Definately not. I was merely giving the other point of view, and telling you how I (and my dd) felt when someone hurt her, and then didn't seem to care. (not saying you didn't- but obviously it did not come through to your friend that you cared). I remember feeling angry and hurt, and felt bad for my dd at the time because it felt like this kid just got to go punch her in the face, and then they didn't even care- it was all about "him" instead of her.

[canadiyank]

and then they didn't even care- it was all about "him" instead of her.

You know, this reminded me of something that I read recently, that if a child hurts another, the primary thing should be to make sure the other child is ok, comfort them, etc., and in this way teach empathy (and, as you noted, get the focus off of the offender) instead of immediately reacting to the negative action. Of course after you're assured of the child's well-being you focus on teaching the offender.

I'm not really sure how I feel about that, since sometimes the offender was provoked or is "acting out" etc. and you're not addressing the other issues, just the "action," if that makes sense. Well, anyways, food for thought.

(Using "offender" b/c I can't think of a better term right now, I realize that is a negative-conotation label...how about "the perp"? LOL! What *are* better terms than offender/victim..."the hitter" seems just as undesirable!)

[canadiyank]

(Bad form to reply to my own post, but does simply, "The child who hit" work? Seems unwieldy but doesn't seem to carry a judgement of worth on it as much...)

[Delphiki]

(Bad form to reply to my own post, but does simply, "The child who hit" work? Seems unwieldy but doesn't seem to carry a judgement of worth on it as much...)

I like "the child who hit" better since it is not labeling the child, just the behavior. Kinda how it is more PC to say "a person with a diability" than "a disabled person" because you are putting the person first. JMHO :wink

[**guest**]

i think the idea of dealing first with the child being hit is great when you deal with siblings, or at least with children who are under you care at that time.

if dd upsets ds, i deal with him first, and then talk to her.

however when there is another parent present to console her child, i do not feel that the parent of the 'child who hit' should be excessively involved, except from offering an apology, and possibly after the injured child has already calmed down (unless, of course, there is an extencive injury and the help is needed).

an upset young child needs to focus on his or her parent, not on the potential stranger offering social nicities to basically please the other parent -- being politically correct over the incident.

i remember a toddler hit Ada, and his mother just wouldn't leave Ada alone --asking her if she was okay, and Ada kept freaking out, and i kept telling the other mom that everything was fine, and she kept on trying to hug Ada. i know, this was excessive, but you get the point. even without the hugging, it was intrusive and confusing for Ada.

when there are 2 children involved, and 2 parents, each parent should ideally focus on their own child, jmho. if i am telling Ada to focus on how upset the child whom she hit is, i am modeling empathy as well.

[canadiyank]

I agree, Anna. I think our primary focus should be our own child. Like I said, I wasn't sure about the technique, it was just interesting, since so many times our focus (even when we're non-punitive) is on the action itself.

Besides, I think Ada was clearly provoked, although that doesn't excuse hitting, of course. I really like how you talked about making amends to the other child - that is something we are starting to implement. BTW, I'm sure you've already tried this (you just didn't mention it in your post), but have you talked with Ada about what to instead of hitting next time she is frustrated/provoked? I am reading a really great book called "Dealing With Disappointment" by Elizabeth Crary that has many ideas.

[**guest**]

i will look up this book, sounds interesting.

i started noticing that ada is doing so much better at expressing herself verbally, rather than resorting to physical actions. it is actually quite amazing, to see her mature this way, and knowing that i was on the right track with gentle redirections and talking to her.

i noticed our kids are the same age!

[Leav97]

Lena exploded that she did not appreciated being called a liar


Ya know, I understand that she was probably just making sure your DD din't feel left out, but, she did lie. I don't think it was that she didn't like being called a liar, although I'm sure that's part of it, she didn't like that you pointed out to a CHILD that she was lieing.

I think the problem there had more to do with the child not being given the same respect as an adult.

[canadiyank]

i noticed our kids are the same age!

Hey, they are - that's cool!

Yeah, that book has been really helpful, I'm only partway through it but there's tons of ideas and I know I will keep referring back to it...it has a built-in workbook, too. I think you can get it at amazon or at www.parentingpress.com