Is this neglect?

[laralou]

My friend's dd is in a MDO for 4 hours a day, several days a week. She is over 3 and not potty trained (just got a baby brother and is having a bit of regression). She is the only one in her class that hasn't been potty trained.

Note: She wears disposables.

Monday, she picked her up and dd was poopy. She changed her and not only was it an old poopy (fluid was absorbed), but it was the same diaper she was sent to school in (was able to tell because sends different diapers than uses at home) 4 hours earlier.

Tuesday, she picked her up and she was poopy again when she got into the car. This time it was a different diaper than she was sent to school in, and it was a fresh poopy.

Wednesday, no problems with pickup but friend had a discussion with the MDO director about the situation. The director made all sorts of excuses for the teacher, including that dd was the only one in the class not potty trained (um, shouldn't that make it easier if she's the only one?). Then she turned it around on friend and started pressuring her about potty training, making friend feel the problem was her fault.

Thursday, she picked up dd, same diaper for 4 hours and an old poop again.

I said this is clear neglect and she should call DHR. If not to report them, then to at least find out what would happen if she does. Of course she won't. She doesn't want to make trouble.

She is going in tomorrow to discuss it. I told her that potty training is NOT the issue and not to discuss it. I told her to tell them that if they have a problem with dd not being potty trained then they can call a conference at a different date. That this conference is solely to discuss the fact that a child (regardless of age) is being left in a pee and poo filled diaper all day long. That is neglect and abusive. And if it is being done because they resent that she isn't potty trained then it is deliberate abuse.

Am I crazy or would you go ballistic? It isn't even my child and I want to go in myself and raise hell. I am going to kill my friend if she sends her back without some kind of understanding. She doesn't want to make too many waves because then she'd have to leave the school and no other school around here takes a child over 3 that isn't potty trained. UUUUUGH!

[annakiss]

I'm with you I'd be pissed. :angry She should call DHR. If they accept a child in diapers, then they should change a child in diapers. No child should be left like that and her dd does not need to be pressured to potty.

[momto l&a]

Maybe thats their form of potty training? Make the little girl miserable from sitting in pee and poo all day? Poor little butt!

How could they even put up with the stink of a dirty diaper :scratch

It sounds like the daycare isnt the best or maybe that teacher needs some help.

[julielenore]

That is inexcusable, the autorities should be called. She could get a serious rash, and it must be uncomfortable for her :(

[JamesMama]

Wow...I'd definatly report it! Thats terrible. Poor little girl. No one should be 'forced' to potty learn...

[MamaBug]

I would take my child out and definetly report it. That is just awful , the poor baby

[Sharlla]

Maybe they don't have very much money and are trying to stretch the diapers out by not changing as often? Perhaps if you have extra cloth diapers you can offer to lend her some.

[Wolfmeis]

Ballistic. Inexcusable.

And this is a DAYCARE. They are using diapers sent from home by the Mom. Their money is not at issue, the lazy ass teacher doesn't want to change the diaper.

[MamaBug]

Maybe they don't have very much money and are trying to stretch the diapers out by not changing as often? Perhaps if you have extra cloth diapers you can offer to lend her some.


I don't care how much $$ they have, you do not leave a child in a dirty diaper like that for 4 hours. NEVER and the diapers are provided by the mother, if they are running low they can just ask for more

[chersolly]

Disgusting. Hope your friend is able to kick some ass.

[momof4peppers]

Can I offer a different perspective? Could the little girl just not feel comfortable with anyone else changing her diaper? Poopy or not? She just has had two major upheavals in her little life - the addition of a sibling and going to school. Maybe this is her way of exerting some control over her life, and her teacher, who she barely knows, and barely knows her, may be giving her some time to get used to the environment before trying to wrest control away from her. And the one day where she did get her diaper changed, maybe was her testing the waters so to speak with the new teacher.

And if she is the only one not potty trained, it may just be that the teacher is so wrapped up in art/reading/music/movement/sensory exploration with 5 kids plus this little girl that changing a diaper isn't foremost on her mind. Heck, I only have 3 kids and there are days where I look at the baby and ask her (as if she can answer! :LOL ) when the last time I changed her diaper was! And I would be HIGHLY offended if you considered me neglectful of my baby! Sometimes poop doesn't stink. On more than one occasion I've been surprised with a dirty diaper (and not enough wipes!) with all of my kids.

ESPECIALLY because it's a little girl, I would really hate to push the diaper change issue.

Could your friend say "Jennifer usually poops around 10 AM. Could you encourage her to (a) try to sit on the potty or (b) check to see if she needs a clean diaper? I hate to see her develop a rash from sitting in a dirty diaper" or some other cooperative statement? She doesn't want her daughter sitting in poop, and the school doesn't want to have to rearrange its schedule around one child.

I don't mean to offend you, but did want to offer up an alternate view of the situation.

[Sharlla]

I don't care how much $$ they have, you do not leave a child in a dirty diaper like that for 4 hours. NEVER and the diapers are provided by the mother, if they are running low they can just ask for more

Oh, I thought it was the mom that wasn't changing the diapers. Yeah the school should definitely be changing the diapers.

[ebethmom]

If they accept a child in diapers, then they should change a child in diapers. No child should be left like that and her dd does not need to be pressured to potty.

Absolutely! We had a problem with a fitness center nursery when ds was 2. I was working for a Weight Watchers meeting in the building, and they would keep my ds in their nursery. The older woman who worked those hours believed that my son should already be potty trained, and chose not to change his diaper. She also let it slip once that our cloth diapers were "just too difficult" for her to change. Ds would only be there for 2 1/2 hours, and I would find him in soaking wet clothes. There was one time that he had been poopy for quite a while.

I complained to the unsympathetic management, then quit that meeting. The piddly paycheck was not worth the stress of that childcare situation.

I'll be curious to see how your friend resolves this situation.

[lilyka]

this is irritating. I do a moms day out once a week and there are 5 teachers and 22 kids (we were bombarded) three of us rotated changing diapers (two stations in use and third person would hunt for diaper and matching child and take a changing table) this took 45 minyes and we didn't even get through everyone. but that is a room full of toddlers/preschoolers in diapers (that is how they make the split there - PT in one room diapers in the other). So I can understand a poop getting missed but not for several hours. for instance maybe if she pooped during pick up and all the teachers were busy with that. but gees.

Your friend is just as neglectful as the school if she allows this to continue though. She need to talk to them, find out what thier policy is. maybe they are too understaffed to deal with diapers. fine. they need to not accept diapers then. and your friend need to respect that if they don't. My MIL taught a preschool class that didn't accept diapers and parents would send thier child in a pull up saying they were potty trained. there was no changing station and no wipes and legally they couldn't change diapers. so they would clean them up the best they could but it isn't like the parents were leaving a diaper bag. of course becuase thier child is "potty trained". So they had no choiuce most of the time but to leave them sitting in it and the parents were fine with this. after all they are the ones who wanted thier child in preschool so bad that they would lie about it. and most people i know whose 3 year olds re still in diapers don't change them more than every 4-5 hours. especially once thier poops get predicatble. So this really wouldn't alarm them. sad but true.

All this rambling to say iot might noe be that big of a deal to the staff. you didn't really mention how your friend felt about it except that she didn't want to make trouble. I htink she needs to find out what thier policy is about having children who arent' potty trained and go from tehre. if they don't allow unpotty trained three year olds she needs to accept that and if they do then she neds to find out what thier changing policy is, if she is ok with tha an then go to the director to make sure it is followed through with. even if it means popping in to check the diaper situation half way through the day.

[laralou]

She sent her husband. I think that might do the trick. For some reason, women tend to bully other women when they wouldn't do it to a man.

To answer questions, this is a child who will always tell you she is poopy and ask to be changed. I know because she is in my nursery class every Sunday. They aren't understaffed IMO. I have many more kids on Sundays, and I check every single diaper- and my kids are only there for an hour at a time.

My friend is upset. I was just mad that she hadn't called DHR and didn't want seem to want to make trouble, but I got her on track with my lectures and rants, apparently. And she told her husband what I told her.

Keep in mind that I work nursery at the same church as this MDO and my friend is nursery director there (she also has worked as a sub at MDO). I am well aware of the attitudes of the teachers since we often work on the same days, and have to share the playground.

I really believe this is a case of not wanting to change diapers, believing she should be potty trained. Knowing this child there is no way she didn't tell her teacher she had a poop. I think it is the teacher's passive aggressive way of telling friend to potty train her.

We'll see what Daddy works out.

[raleigh_mom]

Although, yes, I will agree there is a problem and the diaper should be changed, I will also say this is the first MDO I'lve heard of that accepts 3yos who are not potty trained. I have known kids before that couldn't go to MDO/preschool because they weren't potty trained and they had to stay home.

[laralou]

Although, yes, I will agree there is a problem and the diaper should be changed, I will also say this is the first MDO I'lve heard of that accepts 3yos who are not potty trained. I have known kids before that couldn't go to MDO/preschool because they weren't potty trained and they had to stay home.

I just don't think it should be the issue. This MDO takes 6mos to 5yrs, so they could have held her back in the 2yo class, but they didn't. They could have said we can't take her, but they didn't. They have no potty training policy. I dislike qualifying the statement that she deserves a diaper change with the statement about potty training. It is the same tactic the school used to deflect responsibiity. If they had a problem with her not being potty trained, how come she never heard a word about it until she had a complaint?

Anyway, Daddy took care of it. The director hadn't yet talked to the teacher, but she has said she will do it today and it will NEVER happen again. Much relief.

[HairyArmpits]

Well, even if the teacher relents and begins changing her more often, (because obviously if the school accepts diapers from parents then they are also accepting the responsibility of using them...) now poor little girl has to have her diaper changed by a woman who is resenting her! I don't think that is the type of environment that harbors healthy relationships, growth, and learning...and I wouldn't want anyone capable of resenting a 3 y.o. to be looking after my children. :angry

[octobermom]

this is both inexcusable on the center and frankly I'm suprised the parents returned her that many times (but I don't know there situation) I'd find out what the centers policy is for diaper changing like with the babies most centers I've ever delt with have a 1.5 to 2 hour max or when messy change policy.. And they get changed no matter how much the struggle.. You also NEVER let a child go home messy even if you change them a finial time right in front of the parents. Most centers have a policy children are to be returned clean fed hopefully happy and dry... Its good bussiness...

Hope daddy call/visit does the trick..I'd personally pull her I'd wonder what else is going on but thats me.

Deanna

[traceface]

ESPECIALLY because it's a little girl, I would really hate to push the diaper change issue.

momof4peppers I'm just wondering what this means? Both little girls and little boys need prompt yet respectful diaper changes, I don't really see the distinction?

thanks for explaining!

[octobermom]

momof4peppers I'm just wondering what this means? Both little girls and little boys need prompt yet respectful diaper changes, I don't really see the distinction?

thanks for explaining!

Wondering myself..
Deanna

[JamesMama]

I hope her husband is able to accomplish something. I agree with the PP's though, it it were my child they were treating so poorly, I wouldn't return them...but I guess I don't know the situation they are in...

[lilyka]

Well it sounds liek things are going to be better but if these ladies have bad attitudes in general and expcialy towards a particular child and her diapers I just don't know that that is a good place for her. :( I doubt diapering is the end of thier attitude problem. it is probably just the tip of the ice berge. if they can't have better attitude with thier children they care fro and the other staff perhaps it is time to take this to the edlers of the church.

[phathui5]

If I were your friend, I would pull her out and find a new program. I agree with the poster who said that even though it'll get done now, it's by someone who doesn't want to be changing her. She's going to pick up on that, "my teacher thinks I'm yucky."

[mamakay]

If I were your friend, I would pull her out and find a new program. I agree with the poster who said that even though it'll get done now, it's by someone who doesn't want to be changing her. She's going to pick up on that, "my teacher thinks I'm yucky."
Yep. Plus, I'm not sure I'd be ok with my ds being watched by the kind of person who would say no to a child who'd pooped and asked to be changed.
That's just creepy.

[momof4peppers]

Thanks for the clarification Laralou. I have a son who HATES to be touched, so my first instinct is always to assume that the child didn't WANT someone other than mom/dad/familiar caregiver to change their diaper.

And sorry about the sexist comment. i've been lurking here too long and try to respect the number of women who have been abused by caregivers. It was uncalled for.

Elizabeth

[delicious]

yeah. i would take my kid out after the first day. no WAY would i leave dd in the care of people with that kind of crappy attitude.

[octobermom]

And sorry about the sexist comment. i've been lurking here too long and try to respect the number of women who have been abused by caregivers. It was uncalled for.
I didn't read it as a sexist comment I thought you might be concerned about something in the female form KWIM? Personally I consider diaper changes a must do I'd not leave my child someplace un PT if I eaither didn't feel comfortable with the person in charge changing my dd or if my DD was uncomfortable.. however sitting in a dirty diaper is unacceptable.

Deanna

[moma justice]

i agree, that i would have pulled my child out right away, if you can' trust them YOU CAN'T TRUST them....
and another thought, i don't think i would want my child to be the ONLY child in diapers in a class full of kids in underware,

kids know the difference, and they were all recently trained, adn MOSt parents tend to use terms like "don't be a baby, pee in the potty not your pants, etc" (not saying this is good, just saying this is hwo most young kids get trained)
and so i am sure your child would be the target of some kind of peer teasing or even just made uncomfortable...can you imagine being the only child not in underware adn up on the changing table with a bunch of poopy on your butt?

maybe the child would have come to you (op) or other people for a diaper change and would not have come to THIS teacher in THIS situation b/c she could sense that that would make her not fit in.
esp if added to all that peer stuff she could sense that the teacher was also judging her about it...kids can be very good at using their instincts, and maybe she did not make it known that she ahd the poopy butt for those reasons....
just some thoughts.

and i have been present in many different church nurseries where babies (and i mean babies) were not changed, even with the smell...
i finally started sniffing butts, IDing poop diapers, and taking said baby to workers and requesting they change their butts!

just another reason why i don't let my dd be cared for by strangers in group settings!

oh and OP, lara lou, your children are beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the twins in the fairy wings with your son, i had to call my dh over to the computer just to get a look! so cute!

[lilyka]

kids know the difference, and they were all recently trained, adn MOSt parents tend to use terms like "don't be a baby, pee in the potty not your pants, etc" (not saying this is good, just saying this is hwo most young kids get trained)
and so i am sure your child would be the target of some kind of peer teasing or even just made uncomfortable...can you imagine being the only child not in underware adn up on the changing table with a bunch of poopy on your butt?

!

this is what I too was getting at. I have known 2-3 years who while having no intention of using a potty were still l embarrassed while pooping and wanted private or didn't want to be changed in front of others. I am not sure i there are legalities relating to this or not as far as reasonable expectation of privacy etc. . . I do know that while doing daycare once the kids hit 2 I make sure they are changed privately or at the very least semi privately.

and even more positively many parents say "wow what a great job of making it to the potty. you are such a big kid now. i mean even the pull up comercials exclaim "you're a big kid now" and "you're so smart! you're really getting it" kids pick up on that. I remember my d having a conversation with the little girl next door (who was near 4 when she potty trained) about "why do you still wear baby diapers?" her response was "because I like being a baby you silly" :LOL I think she was a higly intellegent girl and knowing the bribe would eventually get very good she held out and she did indeed score. She got a complete bitty baby set. Doll, cloths furniture, stroller, diaper bag, basket set. several hundred dollars worth of stuff. very smart kid :LOL but still would have been very embarassed to have her poopy butt wiped in front of her long potty trained younger friend.

[onlyzombiecat]

If I were the parent in this situation I would find somewhere else for my dd.
Whatever reason they weren't changing the child isn't good enough if it happened repeatedly.

[laralou]

oh and OP, lara lou, your children are beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the twins in the fairy wings with your son, i had to call my dh over to the computer just to get a look! so cute!


Thanks!!

[sweetangelbrynlie]

Man that is nasty, Id call DHS on them. Having any child sit in poop like that is abuse, let alone a little girl, little girls get UTIs all the time from poop like that.

[melissa17s]

I think she should try to talk to the school again. I found out something interesting about schools in my area and that is that they have different types of lisciensure that states whether or not they can change diapers. My ds went to a preschool before he was completely trained. They were totally willing to have him there, but they were very up front about not changing diapers. Even so, they did change him a couple of times when he had accidents, and they never pushed the potty training issue. It would be worth finding out how they are required to handle the situation from your state's/dhs perspective and if they are complying.