child psychologist says "HE'S TOO OLD TO BE SLEEPING WITH YOU!"

[ilovemybabe]

Hi,

I take my ds to a psych because he's at risk of sexual abuse and other by his father. Overnights at his dad's start this weekend. The psych found out from my ds that we co sleep. She admonished me about it! I told her all the reasons I disagree with her, but she still told me to absolutely put his bed in his room and make him sleep in it alone asap in preparation for Saturday night! She also said to stop carrying him. He needs to be more independent. He's 4. Stop carrying him? How wierd is that?

What kind of culture do we live in!

I used the word sub-culture when discussing co sleeping, and she disagreed that it is that common. She said I live in THIS culture and I need to conform.

She also said she has counseled parents, many parents, who regret cosleeping with their kids.

How do I handle this one? Anyone think it would help my ds to put him in his own bed in his own room tonight so he can report that to the psychologist during his session tomorrow, just to cooperate and have less risk of problems with his dad fighting about it in court?

What do you think?

[gottaknit]

I'm sorry, but I'm stuck on the first sentence. Why is he having over-night visits with his dad if he is a sexual predator?!?!

[kate~mom]

I'm sorry, but I'm stuck on the first sentence. Why is he having over-night visits with his dad if he is a sexual predator?!?!
:yeah:

[johub]

Seriously I would not change what you are doing.
She is a therapist and her biggest argument was to conform to the expectations of this society?
is that why you are seeing a therapist, to get societies expectations straight?
You are seeing a therapist because you feel your ds is at risk for sexual abuse in the other parents home. That is the issue. WHere he sleeps at your house is not the issue.
In addition human needs and psychology dont really change a great deal depending on what society you live in . So her advice being based on what is done in this society really cant be relevent psychologically in my opinion. WHy is it psychologically healthy for Japanese and Javanese etc. . . 4 year olds to cosleep, but not Americans?
Codswallop.
And as for the carryign thing. Well if he isnt too heavy for you to carry, he isnt too big to carry.
Seriously, he will be too heavy eventually, this is an issue that solves itself. It is absolutely absurd for her to even mention it.
Can you find another therapist who isnt so hung up on early independance?
Sounds like a fruit and nutbag to me.
Good Luck
Joline

[chicagomom]

Why does she think co-sleeping is a problem? What, specifically, is her concern?

I would probably try to educate her, since most of the world co-sleeps without any adverse psychological effect.

[Jade2561]

As long as he is co-sleeping with you and not his father I don't think it's an issue at all. And stop carrying him? Why? Like, what does she think this will accomplish? I am very confused as to why your son has over night visits with his father if he is at risk of being sexually abused by him.

[joesmom]

I would think the psychologist would be more worried about your son being alone overnight with someone who is likely to molest him :( than where he sleeps at YOUR house. Something is definitely not right there IMO.

Joe is six & we still cosleep, & I don't regret it. That psych sounds like she needs her license revoked.

[alegna]

Find a new therapist.

-Angela

[mum2sarah]

:yeah: Also, how would it help things to start putting him in his own bed *now* just before he's going to have to deal with the transition of staying at his Dad's for the first time. IMO, that's too many major changes at once.

And besides that, I don't think you should need to push your ds out of your bed until he is ready. Trust your heart...

[MsMoMpls]

I ditto the get a new therapist but she is giving you the advice most therapists are going to give you. It can be hard to find a therapist who respects and understands Attachment Parenting. I also want to better understand the "risk" for sexual abuse and why you are seeing a therapist when you don't share any values with her.

[crunchyconmomma]

she's a nitwit. what are her qualifications?

are these VERY sorts of things (carrying and co-sleeping or lack thereof) the factors that contribute to our psychological development? and if so, do we not want the help of only those "trained professionals" that RECOGNIZE these lifestyle choices AS such?

oh...wait...if we all did the right things by our kids, like nightime parenting and NOT forcing this early independence, she would be out of a job.....

[Bleu]

Which AP writer is it that says "Psychiatrists should absolutely never let their children co-sleep. For everyone else, it is okay." I love that quote! :lol

I disagree with the psychologist's advice, and also find fault with her rather weak support for it -- conformity? Did you already decide, in the thearpeutic context, that conformity is, in fact, a value of yours? Of course that was a rhetorical question. IMO, on the one hand I think a good therapist should put aside their personal opinion and help the client achieve their own objectives for emotional/social well-being, maybe it is possible that since you already raised the issue of sex abuse, she is treating your son differently to try to get some protective behaviors in place.

But I'm wondering if there's a reason the OP didn't mention about why this psychologist. Is there a scarcity of therapists that will work with child patients? Did you need to go with one your insurance pays for? Does family court/terms of custody mandate that your son see THIS particular shrink? I don't know how much experience you have with therapists, but it's normal to shop around some before you find someone you "click" with. For example, I wouldn't see a shrink myself who felt my feminism was a paranoid, neurotic, immature indulgence and that I simply need to better adjust to my femininity and accept my husband's authority (yes, I would run away screaming if I got a whiff of that attitude!). When you shop around, you have either a phone appointment or a short in person appointment where you ask quesitons about the therapist's approach and ask quesitons to determine if they are a good fit. I think it would be very approporiate to check about whether a therapist is familiar with Attachment Parenting, or whatever other situations define life for your son right now -- like the posisble sexual abuse, his parents' divorce, etc. These are common issues and you should be able to find someone who is a good fit if you are in a fairly metropolitan area. If you are in a low population density area, it might be harder. Maybe, if you are even open to finding a different therapist, you could check with the Finding Your Tribe thread for your area? Also, do you realize that there are a few other credentials that might be suitable for giving therapy to your son? LSW = Licensed Social Worker; MSW = Master's in Social Work... um, there might be others that I can't think of.

This article is more about professionals who care for your child's physical well-being, but some might be helpful for your selection process -- if you decide to make a change. (Maybe you can't change, though, and will post back so people will help out with ways to manage this relationship?) I also think that the tips are applicable for working with the psychologist (after the selection process is done -- the title doesn't mention this part).

10 Tips for Finding a Medical Professional for Your Child by Jan Hunt (http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/2-ch/53-find-provider.htm)

I wish I could be more helpful. I hope you will post later, with updates -- hopefully happy ones. Good luck.

[MsMoMpls]

she's a nitwit. what are her qualifications?

are these VERY sorts of things (carrying and co-sleeping or lack thereof) the factors that contribute to our psychological development? and if so, do we not want the help of only those "trained professionals" that RECOGNIZE these lifestyle choices AS such?

oh...wait...if we all did the right things by our kids, like nightime parenting and NOT forcing this early independence, she would be out of a job.....


I don't think this is fair. First of all, there is very little if anything taught in school about child rearing practices. Secondly, forcing early independence does not create the kind of pathology that most therapists are seeing. In fact I don't believe parenting (unless you are talking about true abuse) has much to do with the problems people deal with in adulthood. I think that we blame our parents but really, we do it to ourselves. Sorry but if you want to believe that your parenting is so great that your kids won't need therapy... it just doesn't work like that. We all try to do our best and we have different opinions about what is best. There are very few therapists who even know what Attachment Parenting is.

[InochiZo]

I would think that your child's psych. advice should be thrown out the window based on her reasoning.
However, as a survior of sexual molestation from my father, I believe that your child may be at even more risk. I co-slept with my parents whenever I could sneak in with them. My mom did not like or want a co-sleeping child. I stopped co-sleeping with mom when they divorced. On visits to dad I did co-sleep. I think this put me at higher risk. I don't necessarily think that ending the co-sleeping habit with is the answer because your child may seek co-sleeping from dad.
I would think the psychologist would be more worried about your son being alone overnight with someone who is likely to molest him than where he sleeps at YOUR house. Something is definitely not right there IMO.
I agree with this wholeheartly.
After the abuse - you can't take it back. What if DS slips into bed with dad on a visit and something happens. I am sure you are dealing with visitation rights and issues but if there's any chance that DS can do only day visits, I would do that.

[ilovemybabe]

Here's the scoop: ds's dad is a potential child molester, he's bisexual, he's a sex addict, he's fondled our ds, his own mother (who he moved in with) molested him as a child. It's frightening for me. I separated 2 1/2 years ago, it was in the courts over a year, my first attorney made lousy mistakes, the GAL acted like my X paid her, the final decision was made by a misogynistic judge......we started with Supervised visitation at a special center to protect abused women and children from perpetrators....ended up with a final order starting this weekend: three overnight weekends every month. My evidence that my son is at risk is "circumstantial" and neither the courts nor the psychologist can do anything preventitive, only if something happens will my son be protected. Yes, this is my life right now. I've taught ds about privacy and the right touch, read all the appropriate children's books on the subject (to him), constantly remind him about it. He has spoken up to stop his private parts from being handled.
Now, the psychologist. Yes, I had to shop around a lot. I had to find a woman (ds was afraid of men at the time), a PhD (for the courts) covered by insurance, works with young children, and a background in abuse so she can recognize any signs if my ds is molested or abused.
I don't like her, she seems ineffective and has no education in play therapy. she uses the play setting for talking, which isn't particularly useful with a 4 year old. But if ds is molested, he will tell me and her, which is the main thing. But of course, all along, it has been part of the orders given that a psychologist be part of it, and this final order is specifically her as the one. Only if my X and I agreed to find another one in writing would it work to change, but ds has a relationship with this one, it takes him a long time to get comfortable with new people, new places, and I need the routine of sameness for him so that if something happens, the psychologist will know.

So, I don't have much faith in her at all as being helpful to ds for making these hard transitions or supporting my parenting style-she doesn't! In fact, if she knew I was still nursing, oh WOW that might be trouble! I am afraid ds will tell her, I'm tempted to wean, but he'd be so devestated if I did it right now. I've had to threaten him that if he discusses it with anyone, that's it, no more milk. (I told him that our cosleeping was private and not to be talked about, but he told the psych when she pried, and any adult might trick him into talking about it).

I am so mad about having the psych, my X, the judge, etc. determine how to protect/NOT my ds, telling me how I can or can't parent, etc., having to teach ds not to talk about our personal lives......he's only 4!

[ilovemybabe]

I'm sorry you were molested by your father. hugs hugs hugs

I have told ds never to sleep with his father, in his father's bed or his own bed at his father's. I heard from some other co-sleeping mom's that their kids transitioned fine to sleeping alone when they had sleepovers anywhere else without mom there.

I am not going to stop co-sleeping. It may become an issue with this psych. But I know what is best for my child. Maybe I'll give her my copies of The Family Bed and Three in a Bed. (Although it's just us two....)

I did, however, move ds's bed back into his bedroom (playroom! ha ha) and do what I called a 'shake down' for him. We went through the motions of what it might be like to sleep at dad's. Closing bathroom doors tightly, changing clothes in complete privacy, reading on the bed, we did three phone calls to me (he used the house phone, I used the cell phone, he pretended he was waking up in the middle of the night to call me for comforting.) I put my smelly shirt in his bed, a flashlight, a picture of us with 'I love you" on the back. We did a sort of 'what it might be like' play.
I had him stay in his bed while I got ready for bed myself. He kept talking to me and I had to ask him to lie down many times. When I was out of sight I heard him sobbing, he was in there with the flashlight looking at the photograph. I jumped on his bed and held him telling him I was right there, he didn't have to be so upset, and how sorry I am that our life has to be this way. Then I told him I'd read in a chair where he could see me, and finally, he did go to sleep.

Why did I do this? Well, for one, I want him to know that he can do it, that he can fall asleep in his own bed by himself. I don't want him sleeping with his father or thinking he can't sleep alone. Second, his appointment with the psych is in the morning, and I think it will help our situation if she can hear from ds that he did it, and that he can do it, and I'm hopeful that he'll be proud of it and comforted by it. Hopeful...

I told him if he wakes up in the night he can come back to our co sleeping bed. I know he can sleep alone, it's the falling asleep part I wanted him to know he can do on his own.....

I'm not going to do it again......

Any books you can recommend to educate the psych?

[shelbean91]

I think a child that is going through so many changes doesn't need his stable sleep routine disrupted in addition to everything else. Your psych is basically telling you 'come on, everyone is doing it....why don't you' She's using peer pressure and bullying- the exact stuff we tell our kids not to buy into.

You don't want your ds to feel rejected at a time of potential crisis in his life.

Ask the psych for evidence that backs her 'advice' and then tell her to stuff it. How and where you sleep is (well, shouldn't) be her business. If your ds keeps sleeping with you, he KNOWS what that is like, so if your ex and/or his mom tries anything, ds will KNOW it's not right. Your psych forcing extra trauma on your ds is just wrong.

I'm so sorry you're going through all of this. I hope and pray nothing happens and nothing comes of your concerns, but you're smart and strong to do what you're doing.

[Threefold]

I'm sorry I don't have any advice.
My experience is much less traumatic, but I am about to end my relationship with a counselor I like very much b/c she doesn't understand AP at all, nor homeschooling, and has given me/us similar advice, when really, she should not be giving advice at all.
I'm sorry.
:hug

[ladybugchild77]

:hug
I am so sorry you and your dc are going through this. I went through a lot of abuse as a child and know how hard it is on both the child AND parent (my mom was a single mom too...) Just wanted to let yo uknow I am thinking about you and your dc... :Peace

[Bleu]

Jeebus. I knew this didn't sound like a warm and fuzzy story from the get-go, but I'm so sorry for what you're going through, ILMB. Two of them to worry about -- gah.

And hugs to all the survivors in this thread.

[MsMoMpls]

ilovemybabe- I feel so terrible about your story... it is just such a terrible situation. However, as a psychologist, what is happening here is just dangerous. You and the therapist cannot prepare yourself or your child for some situation of abuse that might happen. I worry that you are putting very complicated ideas into his head. I would strongly think about the message you are giving him that nursing and cosleeping are "private" and not to be discussed when you are trying to teach him to tell you what his father does. All his father has to do is tell him it is a secret, just like you did, and he will be completely confused.

Please, try to just trust that you have given him all that you need to give him by teaching him healthy boundaries. That is all you or any parent can do.

I doubt you are going to convert your psychologist to AP but I would suggest you just tell her that you are parenting the way you believe is best for you and your child and that you aren't asking for her help with parenting. But then you really have to keep that boundary. If you ask her help with transitions, and she makes recommendations such as ending co-sleeping (which I think most professionals would do), then if you ignore her advice... you might actually be in worse shape with the courts. Just keep it simple and don't expect much from this situation. I don't think she is anything other than building a relationship with him "just in case".

You might consider getting your own therapist, who is very AP friendly. You can't have your son seen by two therapists, and you can't take him to see someone without his father's consent but you can see someone yourself that could back up your decisions or just give you some real support here.

Good luck... this is such a painfull situation.

[whateverdidiwants]

Here's the scoop: ds's dad is a potential child molester, he's bisexual...

I'm really not trying to kick you while you're down, but it's very upsetting to see you say that your ex being bisexual makes him a potential child molestor. All the other things you listed, fine. Sexual preference, NOT fine. Most pedophiles identify as straight, btw (like all those catholic priests).

[frog]

Maybe I'm out of line, since I'm fairly new and all, but the suggestion that ANYONE is a "potential child molester" because they're bisexual is a fat load of crap.

And the suggestion that he's going to abuse this child because his mother abused him grates on me, personally, since I was raised by abusive parents.

While I understand the desire to protect your child, I couldn't just stand by and let that kind of thing go unchallenged.

[sarahariz]

I'm a psychologist and I can tell you that they are totally uneducated about attachment parenting-at least I had never heard a thing about it until I became pregnant and started looking into natural birth, etc. You might want to refer her to the professionals link at Attachment Parenting International
http://www.attachmentparenting.org/4prof.shtml.

I also agree with others it might be good to find a therapist sympathetic to your views-someone working with you rather than against you... but if she was court ordered or appointed to evaluate you and/or your child, I could see why you'd be concerned about getting on her "bad" side. Education would be the best bet then.

[katallen]

It is extremely common to co-sleep, more of a culture than a sub culture. I have been surprised by how many people with very different parenting styles I have run into that co-sleep. Even my daughter's pediatrician co-sleeps. I think you need a new psychologist.

[sarahariz]

In fact, if she knew I was still nursing, oh WOW that might be trouble! I am afraid ds will tell her, I'm tempted to wean, but he'd be so devestated if I did it right now. I've had to threaten him that if he discusses it with anyone, that's it, no more milk. (I told him that our cosleeping was private and not to be talked about, but he told the psych when she pried, and any adult might trick him into talking about it).

having to teach ds not to talk about our personal lives......he's only 4!

I posted my last reply before I read everything on the thread.

This sounds like a very complicated situation-and I totally agree-he's only 4!

I am concerned about your asking him to keep certain things secret and threatening him re the breastfeeding. I imagine you must be frightened and scared, and maybe you need some reassurance that your relationship with him will be protected. Even something like the breastfeeding-you are hoping that he won't tell because you are afraid that the psych or courts will tell you not to do it.

I'm wondering if you can find another source of reassurance-perhaps strengthening what is within you, regarding your convictions about breastfeeding, co-sleeping, etc. I am worried that asking your son not to tell about breastfeeding and other things is sending a message to him that these things are somehow wrong-when clearly they provide comfort to him.... how confusing that must be for him! Similarly, it would be confusing to hear that you shouldn't keep secrets about someone (Dad?) touching him in the wrong way, but you should keep secrets about things he and Mom do. If you put yourself in his little mind, you can see how this must be for him.

I think the hardest thing for you to face is the fact that, no matter what you do, your child MAY end up being abused.... that ultimately, you have no control over what others do or don't do... no parent does-and this is very scarey. Once you can really absorb this, grieve the possibility, and grieve the fact that he was already fondled by his father... then perhaps you can more readily help him without letting your fears take over your efforts to help him. As someone else mentioned, it could be that your own personal fears are overwhelming your efforts and actually making him more scared. I would be more inclined to not make the biggest deal out of his visitations with his dad-- the more you try to protect him by rehearsing what he should do when all these terrible things happen... the more scared he could be getting.

You may not be doing this.. perhaps I'm reading too much into what you said...what I think is best is teaching him, as you have, about appropriate touch, and how to let an adult know if something is wrong. Then I think you have to let it go. You have to have some trust in him, in yourself, in the world in general... do you know what I'm saying? Otherwise, you will drive yourself (and him) into a really stressed out state.

I think too, it might be helpful for you to have your own therapist to help you deal with all the feelings you must have about the situation... I know I would.. my dd is only 14 mo old and I've cried many a time about what I'm afraid will happen to her as she grows up and is "beaten down" by the world... so I can only imagine how you must feel. I've been working on trusting myself to do the best I can and to have faith in my and her abilities to experience the world and express the joys, pains, and sadnesses she and we will inevitably have being in it.

[Naiad]

:hug

I'm sorry your ds has to go through this. If it were my child I'd feel like running for the hills with him and never letting his dad get a chance to potentially harm him, no matter what decision was made by the courts.

What a terrible situation.

[Bleu]

What Frog (hi, Frog! :wave) and WhateverDidiWants said: bisexuality (or homosexuality) is definitely not an indicator of likely child molestation -- if anything, the reverse. I didn't say anything before, and I should have.

No helpful advice, but I worried, too, when I read about OP's intention to keep breastfeeding, etc. secret. I can understand your motives for doing so, but since your ds is already talking with a therapist who's not understanding, and since 4 is not an age where fine distinctions come easily, and since molestors are known for demanding secrecy, this just has "backfire" written all over it. I am sorry not to have any better ideas to offer.

[termasan]

"he's fondled our ds"

I wish that this would have been enough for the courts to consider him a molester and have your ds protected from him. I can't understand why anyone would give the adult the benefit of the doubt, instead of considering the best interest of the child and safeguarding him. I wish you the best in dealing with this terribly difficult situation. It sounds so stressful. Good for you for preparing your son so well for this new situation. It sounds like you have given him some tools and guidance, not to mention lots of love and support.

I hope that you both come through this unscathed.

Teresa
Marcos 11-3-04

[tootpapa]

First, I'd like to say I am sorry that you and your son are going through all of this. It sounds very difficult. Secondly, I want to say it sounds like you are really thinking very well about him and the situation and are doing a great job. It is obvious from your story how much you care and how hard you are working to solve these very difficult and complicated problems. Don't forget to take a moment and realize this - you are doing a great job (it is easy to forget this when you are caught up in the situation).

It seems that others here have given you some very good advice. In dealing with your therapist, don't forget that you can use Mothering magazine and website as a source to support your ap beliefs. I think MsMoMpls is right; it is probably not worth a battle over the issue, but there is a precedent for this practice and evidence that it is healthy. Ridiculous that you should have to defend this, but perhaps necessary. It infuriates me (and therefore I can't imagine how you must feel) that people are not willing to use critical thinking in these situations. Ignorance of ap I can at least understand, but your therapist should be able to evaluate or re-evaluate her position. Sadly, extensive academic training often undermines this ability rather than cultivates it.

I also agree that secrecy is not best. That is why I suggest some material support for your position if you are forced to defend it. Nothing you are doing is putting your child in danger or hindering his development, as opposed to your husband's behaviour. Keep that in mind and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Oddly enough, I find this situation similar in principle to discussions I have with others about vegetarianism. Some people try to tell me it is not healthy (especially for our dd to be raised that way) but they can almost never support their arguments. I can support my position with science and it helps in some cases. Of course, if you encounter people without critical thinking skills, and they are everywhere, this doesn't get you very far. But I would hope a psychologist could at least be able to acknowledge the premise that ap is okay. And you already know it works and is good. Don't let others shake your conviction and what you have learned by your own experience. It must be tough to stay strong in these situations.

I also ditto that sexual orientation is irrelevant here. Straight men are the usual culprits in these situations.

I wish you luck and commend you again on thinking so well about your ds.

[frog]

Hi, bleu. :)

[SleeplessMommy]

You have my deepest sympathy. What a hard situation for both of you.

[gottaknit]

This thread is making me so sad. :crying Your (OP) description of "practicing" for his overnights with dad brought tears to my eyes. The poor baby. :(

:hug I hope it all works out alright. I cannot imagine how painful this must be for you both.

I agree with the others about the secrecy thing. What if your son tells the therapist that he and mommy keep secrets from her (therapist) and daddy? What if she uses this info to try to say you are the molester? It's just bad news all around.

[mommy65]

I am so touched by the care you are taking in preparing your son. This is an awful awful situation for him--- and you, but he is blessed to have you helping him through it. I have no advice to give but just wanted to give a little encouragement.

[ilovemybabe]

I just read all these many many replies to my thread. Thank you everyone! There is so much to respond to, let me try.

First, I am sorry if I offended anyone for my comment about bisexual. I did not intend to infer that that makes him a molester, it's just that no one seems to believe that a straight man would molest his son, just his daughter. It isn't his sexual orientation that is the problem, it's his seeing his son as a sex toy that is the problem.

Secondly, I really appreciate the hard to hear advice that I am teaching my son to keep dangerous secrets by insisting that he not discuss breastfeeding or co-sleeping, and that it may make him think it's 'wrong'. I don't use the word 'secret', with breastfeeding I use the word 'private', which I think works fine because breasts are private and it is consistent with teaching privacy.

With co-sleeping, most of our friends co-sleep and we can discuss it with them, so I don't think he'll translate that as a bad thing just because I don't want him to discuss it with his father. He already discussed it with the psychologist, so that is a mute point.

Dealing with the psychologist being critical of my co-sleeping and not taking her advice about helping him transition may be an issue with the courts. But since his father is blatently not helping with transitions, I don't think much could really be made of it in court. As another mom said, the judge knew about it and didn't take custody from me or penalize me for it.

I don't know any other extended breastfeeding moms in my area, so I wonder if my ds will think it's 'bad' because we keep it private, but I'm not sure. Everyone parents differently. home school/pre school junk food /health food, food allergies, special baking, ds can already see that we do a lot of things differently from other people. But I think he sees it as GOOD and those poor kids who were weaned early and eat junky stuff.....etc.

What else. That was a lot of reading.

Thank you for those of you who reminded me that I'm doing a good job in an incredibly difficult and complicated situation.

and to TRUST
that's the hard part

Love,
ilovemybabe

[Bleu]

update? :hug