Parenting With Love and Logic?

[ShadowMom]

I started reading "Parenting With Love and Logic" and, I have to say, I am not impressed, for a variety of reasons.

For some reason, the board software won't let me search this forum for the book title, so I thought I would start a thread on it.

I just wanted to see what other GD'ers thought of it. I haven't gotten very far into it, as I said - I've skipped around and read maybe 15 pages? But here are the problems I'm having :

1. Can't you take natural consequences a little too far? I don't intervene MUCH when my child is playing with other child, but I do intervene if he's being a bully (he's not even 2, so this happens frequently... LOL).
2. The general tone of the book seems rather harsh to me. At one point the author states that parents who don't establish (their version of) strong boundaries have brats.
3. I don't care for all of the religious references, seeing as how I am not religious and am not a Christian (comparing parenting to the way that god parents us is completely lost on me).

That's all I can think of right now...

Is this book worth reading?

TIA.

[goldrose]

You bet!!

I have been using love and logic techniques for over a year now (I have a 3 y.o. and 2 y.o - both girls). While I have to say that I generally have well-behaved children no matter what parenting method I'd choose, Love and Logic is by far the most awesome way of parenting. Harsh you mentioned? No way. Firm, but loving. I'll give you two examples from my personal experience -
(p.s. I have only read the book "love and logic magic for early childhood" and yes, it IS magic!)

1) One evening my cute little 3 year old was fooling around while I tried to get her into pajamas. I said what I always say when she does something not right - "Uh-oh, this is so sad" From her training with this phrase, since she knows that what comes next is "looks like a little bedroom time. you're welcome to come out when you are ready to act sweet. I love you." she has become accustomed to responding: "No! Ready! Ready!" (When I say, "ready for what?" she says "ready to act sweet!") Well, this time, when she said "no, ready ready!!" I said "that's so sad, I guess you'll be putting on pj's yourself tonight" And I stuck to my guns. She cried, begged, pleaded for me to help her. I held her tight, hugged her, told her I love her, and still told her that it's so sad and perhaps we could try again tomorrow. Well, she put on pj's by herself, all sad and crying, while I sympathised with her. From then on, whenver it is time to change (into pj's or getting dressed in the morning) I start with "Am I going to be helping you get dressed or are you going to be doing it yourself?".................................

2)My younger daughter - just turned two on Sept 11, so she's really little - is also accustomed to this "uh-oh this is so sad" and also says "no! ready! ready!" --she is so well trained in knowing that when I say "uh-oh" it indicates that she (or her sister) did something wrong. Well, one day we sat down in the kitchen to bake a cake together, and I opened up the closet and saw that we didnt have enough flour so I said "uh-oh!" and the little one automatically said "no! ready! ready!" I started laughing and reassured her that she had done nothing wrong!!

Parenting is a lot easier with these love and logic techniques, and my kids really do know their limits and boundaries.

I am not Christian either and think that perhaps they could have left out those parts, but I still think their parenting ideas are amazing. :thumb

[katallen]

I think that you can take good advice and leave bad advice from any parenting book. I have read several books both gentle and not and in all of them I found either something that I could use or else something that I rejected and planned a better way of handling the situation when it happened to me. If you feel that you are to easily taken in by what "authority" figures on a subject say then I would not read it, but if you are interested and think some of it will be useful and you are able to discard the rest than I would read it.

[chfriend]

I haven't read it, but the examples make me go "Yuck." OP: Try "Playful Parenting" by Lawrence Cohen. Then if your kid is messing around putting on pajamas it doesn't have to be sad, just fun and bonding time.

[goldrose]

chfriend, perhaps it could be fun time and bonding but a) I am happy to have fun time and bonding with my children when they are acting sweet, so yes, not cooperating is sad since they then lose out on fun time and bonding and b) when your children have to be on a schedule, and be out the door by 8:30 in the morning, is not the time for "fun time and bonding". Love and Logic ideas are one way of making life go smoother without the yelling and stresses. (Of course everybody yells at one time or another. It's part of life, but not all of life).

[monkey's mom]

Love and Logic ideas are one way of making life go smoother without the yelling and stresses.

She cried, begged, pleaded for me to help her.

I opened up the closet and saw that we didnt have enough flour so I said "uh-oh!" and the little one automatically said "no! ready! ready!" I started laughing and reassured her that she had done nothing wrong!!
I'm sorry, but it sounds like your kids might actually be pretty stressed out by this method.

Isn't this the book that proposes withdrawing help so children learn lessons the hard way? I think I've read pretty negative reviews about it here. Darn search engine is all wonky.

[mama ganoush]

I haven't read it, but the examples make me go "Yuck." OP: Try "Playful Parenting" by Lawrence Cohen. Then if your kid is messing around putting on pajamas it doesn't have to be sad, just fun and bonding time.

yeah that.

and am i on mothering? In the gentle discipline forum?

3 year olds don't jump into or out of their jammies like they are in the military. it is developmentally appropriate, and how their brain develops incidentally, for them to play. nothing sad, or not sweet about it. and as for the sweetness, are you 'sweet' every second of the day? is anyone? why on earth should 2 and 3 year olds be under pressure to be sweet all the time and on top of that, have mommy's attention withheld as punishment. there is nothing gd about the example given here. gd encompasses alot more than just not beating children.

[leomom]

I'm halfway through, and I really like it. Just subbing for now. BBL to catch up on previous posts and tell more about my opinion. :)

[ShadowMom]

I appreciate all of the posts. Just from the examples given, it really does not sound like my parenting style at all. I don't mean any offense, that's just what I'm picking up on from the examples. So, it doesn't sound like the book has much to offer me. I don't have a lot of time to read, so I want a lot of action for my money :LOL

[annab]

Wow. Given the examples From Gold Rose, I would not say that is consistent with GD. It seems to use manipulation, coercion and artificial consequences. I would not be comfortable using a method that encouraged me to stop bonding with my child when their actions were not met with my approval (not acting 'sweet').

Here is a search of other posts about this book:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/search.php?searchid=1243219

With so many excellent books out there, I would probably not choose this one if I were looking for a good GD book.

[sagira]

I bought the book at a flea market. I really do not agree with any of the parenting advice for 0-6-year-olds I'd say. After that, I think it gets a lot better. Especially the teenage years I think they are right in many ways, but I'd still use my judgment and decide on a case-by-case basis.

I definitely do not agree (yuck!) with their comparing young children to (shudder) German Shepherds that need to be trained on command. And many other things like that. In my book at least, they don't condone light spanking of very young children either.. which is a no-no in my eyes (and I think everybody here).

I feel much more "at home" reading Positive Discipline for Preschoolers (except for the sleep part, I practice AP), The Discipline Book and surprisingly, a homeschooling book titled Home Education by Charlotte Mason.

I do own Playful Parenting but I have a hard time with anyone (let alone my child that I loved and nurtured since he was little) disrespecting me and calling me a butthead. I do like the advice on playing more with my children, though. I have a lot of fun playing and discovering things about ds that I wouldn't have if I didn't play with him. I also act a lot more playful about things.

Am I rambling? Perhaps, but let me just say this: above and beyond everything else, you want to keep your children close to you, not create a chasm between the two of you. Keep your relationship strong, nurture it like any other important relationship. This is perhaps, next to your marriage, your most important relationship.

Cheers!

[leomom]

Wow, I caught up on the posts and I just want to say that I am do not read those things into that book. Maybe I'm reading a different book or am not far into it.

In any case, I just want to say that I personally would not feel comfortable picking a battle of pajamas and implying that dd wasn't acting sweet because she was playing. I don't mean to judge anyone else's parenting, but since I had posted to say I was reading it and enjoying it, I didn't mean that i agreed with things like that. I hadn't read the previous posts yet, just wante to subscribe. I haven't even really noticed that type of stuff. Maybe I'm just too programed to slant everything toward the gentle side or something...

[YiddisheMama]

i've read the book, and use it successfully with my 5 year old, my 2 1/2 year old, and soon with my 11 month old.

i think people have been reading into and misunderstanding the posts by goldrose.

the idea of the book is to teach your children responsibility, respect, love etc.

to let your child have enough control that they are learning to make decisions, (a trait that is very important to have and not everyone can make decisions), yet the control your child has is within very firm but loving limits, not enabling them to do anything harmful or detrimental to themselves or to others, but educating them in a practical way.

for instance, if i told my five year old i wanted her to wear her red dress today, she'd argue she wanted her blue one. yet, if i told her she can look in her closet and choose something, she may choose something ridiculous, like a plaid shirt with a flower pair of pans or something unmatched like that.

if i gave my daughter a choice, within my limits, such as, "do you want to wear the red dress or the blue dress?" i am comfortable with whatever she decides, yet from her perspective, she is making the decision, she feels empowered, she is made to think (which one do i want?), she is learning how to choose.

at the same time, when things have to happen, choices are a great way to go about it.

i won't say to my daughter, "okay, we're leaving, get your jacket on." rather i'd give her a choice, "we're leaving, do you want to put your right hand into your jacket first or your left hand?"'

this is a very insignificant choice, and it really makes no difference how she gets her coat on, but she's busy thinking and deciding, it doesn't occur to her that she doesn't want to get her coat on etc.

it's kind of hard to explain in writing, but i'd highly recommend that you read the book.

choices are not the only things it discusses of course, it was just one aspect i wanted to touch upon.

oh, and one more thing. goldrose, this is directed to you, i think your quips are actually very cute, and i think that only one who has read and practices the love and logic techniques will be properly able to understand without completely taking what you wrote out of proportion.

and just for the record, my children are very very happy, emotionally healthy, loved children. they know and feel that we love them and care for them, and they know that sometimes they make a decision that affects them in a negative way.

feel free to pm me if you have specific questions. i'll be happy to discuss this with anyone!

[annab]

Yiddishemama--That makes more sense, but when someone says, "Oh no, that is so sad", she is saying one of two things. 1) That is sad because I am getting ready to make you sad by banishing you to your room for showing age-appropriate behavior or 2) That mommy is sad that you have to go to your room, which makes a child responsible for an adult's feelings.

I am not trying to come down on goldrose, but the examples that she gave were very chilling for me. To tell children that they are only worthy of your love, otherwise they are sent away, when the 'act sweet' puts conditions on our love for our kiddos. Saying, "she knows from her training" makes it sound like she went to boot camp. When kids have such a strong conditioned response to a phrase like "uh-oh", that freaks me out a little.

[Dar]

I don't like it either.

The choices it gives are "fake" choices - basically, you can do what I want you to do or something bad will happen. I remember one example about, "Do you want to walk to the car, or shall I carry you?" That's no choice. And the "right hand first or left hand" thing might work for an easily swayed kid, but never for most kids I know, who would be yelling, "I said no coat!"

I also really hated the author's fake sympathy. The parent decides something like, "We're leaving in 10 minutes; if you haven't finished your food I'm throwing it away." and then does so... and then when the kid is hungry, does this fake-empathy "Gee, I sure know how hard it is to be hungry, but wow, won't dinner taste good 4 hours from now?" routine. I mean, if a person really was acting in a caring, empathetic way towards another person who was hungry, that person would help the hungry person obtain some food. The words are pretty meaningless without any action behind them, and to me they seemed really dishonest. This was an actual example in the book, BTW...

There was another example in the book about the parent suddenly deciding that the kids could stay up as late as they wanted (after years of enforced bedtimes), giving them pretty much no guidance, and then forcing them to wake up early and go to school the next day. What a set-up! How can you expect kids to make wise decisions about their sleep needs when they haven't ever been able to make those choices for themselves before? And why were the parents not trying to help the kids make better decisions? I think this is neglectful parenting, at least this example was...

goldrose, when you say, "Uh-oh, so sad" and theaten bedroom time, are you really feeling sad? It didn't sound like it, since you talk about "training" her with this phrase. Do you consider this dishonest?

Dar

[mama ganoush]

what's wrong with a child putting on clothes that don't match?

[gaialice]

when your children have to be on a schedule, and be out the door by 8:30 in the morning, is not the time for "fun time and bonding".
My kids have to be on a schedule too. And it is hard because they are 3 and 5 yo. I really am sorry about that... for them and for me, I feel we are robbed of precious bonding and fun time b'se I have a full time job that I am not ready to give up... and so does dh... however, and precisely because of that perhaps, I do try to enjoy every single moment with the kids. I do not mean to criticize what you do Goldrose. But then, if you came to this board, it must be that you are curious about other ways of parenting and so why not just try .... Like try and find ways to make putting jammies on funny (I try putting trousers on their heads and pretend I can't figure why it does not work..) or ... if we are persistently late in the morning I brainstorm with the children to find better ways... yes, it does mean that my children do not obey automatically and that is hard when the family in on a schedule however it is just not their fault if this is so and ..... life is not divided into what is fun and what is a chore.... Life is beautiful. Every ounce of it. Really.

[gaialice]

I do own Playful Parenting but I have a hard time with anyone (let alone my child that I loved and nurtured since he was little) disrespecting me and calling me a butthead.
Sagira, did you try the playful parenting "trick" for bad words? The author describes in the book that when his children called him bad names he pretended that the bad name was his secret name. But then he would tell them "But that is not my real secret name... you want to know my really super secret name. Shhh, don't tell anyone.... It is .. whispering.... <cicico>". Clearly, the kids would start calling him by his supersecret name and everything ended in laughter. Wow that worked like a charm with my kids!

[YiddisheMama]

mama ganoush, i think you completely missed my point. it really isn't a big deal if my daughter wears mismatched clothes.

however, at some point in every child's life, they become an adult. at what point to they need to learn to live like an adult? how can they learn to make proper choice if they were'nt properly guided? how can they know what's right and what's wrong if they were permitted to do "whatever was fun and made them happy"?????

the love and logic skills are not tough and rough and mean and hard on the children. they educate them in practial ways.

regarding the example given above about the child missing the meal...i did that with my 5 year old daughter. we had to leave to an appointment. i asked her if she needed 15 minutes for lunch or 20 minutes. she told me 20. after 20 minutes when she had barely eaten anything, i calmly took her plate away, and we got ready to go. in answer to your question, yes, i was sad. yes, it does hurt me that my child is hungry. and later when she told me she was hungry, i used the line in the book. i told her i know, and i get pretty hungry too when i decide to skip lunch. (remember, she made the decision, she knew she had adequete time to eat if she so desired. she was in charge here.
and you know what? she's never done it again. when i ask her how long she needs for lunch (i give her a choice of x or y amount of minutes), i use a timer so she can see how much time is left, and she always eats her meal, or whatever part of it she wants.. she knows i won't make her eat more than she's hungry for, but she also knows that food is centered around mealtimes and snacktimes.

she made an adult decision, and she has learned an adult lesson in a fairly simple, painless way.

letting your child do verything he or she wants, and making all of their decisions is not always the right and proper thing to do.

if your child wants to eat candy for breakfast, lunch, and dinner - do you allow that?

i'd calmly tell my child that the candy is not one of the choices for a meal (this hasn't happened, but theoretically).

if your child wants to scribble with permanent marker on the brand new white couch, how to you tell her not to in a way that she'll listen and cooperate happily ???

it works with love and logic.

[ShadowMom]

what's wrong with a child putting on clothes that don't match?

:yeah: If my toddler really wanted to wear something, I would let him wear it. :o Even if it looked funny.

Regarding the examples given here - the very little of the book that I read, you don't give your child meaningless choices - it was all about letting them actually choose. For instance, in the coat example, if your child wanted to actually go without a coat, you would let them... if they got really cold, then next time they would remember their coat on their own and would have learned an important lesson without a power struggle.

In fact, the book seemed to carry this a little far and encouraged a very adversarial relationship with your child in letting them learn these lessons, which is one of the things I was having an issue with. I don't want my DS to learn about natural consequences in a way that will get CPS called on me... KWIM? :o

[Wugmama]

I also haven't read the book. But from the little the OP said about it, and more from the examples given by the second poster, which are supposed to be consistent with the book, I would say it sounds like a terrible book.

Not trying to be snarky to the second poster, but honestly her whole examples sound totally sad to me. :(

I've heard great things about the Playful Parenting book. It is on my list of things to read...

Take care,
Tracy

[BellinghamCrunchie]

"Uh-oh, this is so sad" From her training with this phrase, since she knows that what comes next is "looks like a little bedroom time. you're welcome to come out when you are ready to act sweet. I love you."

Something about this really sits badly with me. It seems to me that the messages given with these statements are kind of crazy-making, in a way... combining a punishment with the phrase "I love you" seems like a recipe for making the words "I love you" very charged in a conflicted way. I think, if I was raised this way, as an adult, everytime someone said, "I love you" to me, I would, in some primal way, wait for the other shoe to drop, feel uneasy, expect something unpleasant to come next.

I guess saying "I love you" when administering a time out or something unpleasant is meant to reassure the child that even though you have to make them do this unpleasant thing, you still love them. But I think it will backfire and make love itself seem unpleasant. I think its better to reassure the child that you love them after the timeout, during the time you are verbally processing the event, and not while you are administering the punishment.

Actually, I'm opposed to punishments, and view being sent to their room as a punishment because of the way they obviously don't like it and don't want it. But this is just my own parenting style and I don't mean to criticize anyone who uses time outs. I just didn't want it to seem like I was supporting time out.

[owensmom]

mama ganoush, i think you completely missed my point. it really isn't a big deal if my daughter wears mismatched clothes.

however, at some point in every child's life, they become an adult. at what point to they need to learn to live like an adult? how can they learn to make proper choice if they were'nt properly guided? how can they know what's right and what's wrong if they were permitted to do "whatever was fun and made them happy"?????

the love and logic skills are not tough and rough and mean and hard on the children. they educate them in practial ways.

regarding the example given above about the child missing the meal...i did that with my 5 year old daughter. we had to leave to an appointment. i asked her if she needed 15 minutes for lunch or 20 minutes. she told me 20. after 20 minutes when she had barely eaten anything, i calmly took her plate away, and we got ready to go. in answer to your question, yes, i was sad. yes, it does hurt me that my child is hungry. and later when she told me she was hungry, i used the line in the book. i told her i know, and i get pretty hungry too when i decide to skip lunch. (remember, she made the decision, she knew she had adequete time to eat if she so desired. she was in charge here.
and you know what? she's never done it again. when i ask her how long she needs for lunch (i give her a choice of x or y amount of minutes), i use a timer so she can see how much time is left, and she always eats her meal, or whatever part of it she wants.. she knows i won't make her eat more than she's hungry for, but she also knows that food is centered around mealtimes and snacktimes.

she made an adult decision, and she has learned an adult lesson in a fairly simple, painless way.

letting your child do verything he or she wants, and making all of their decisions is not always the right and proper thing to do.
.


I was listening to some tunes I hadn't heard in a while last night, and I was struck again by this line in a Tragically Hip song: "No dress rehearsal, this is our life". It brought me around then to the central theme of the movie Strictly Ballroom - a life lived in fear is a life half lived.

I thought, this is what I want my kid to grow up to understand. I don't want him to feel he needs to go through life doing what is always expected... high school, college, career, house, wife, whatever. My dh and I bought into all the consumerist needs in our 20's, now we are wishing we didn't have so much stuff, so much debt, so we could live more freely and happily... dh said now he knows why people have mid life crises! Anyway, if ds wants to wear mismatched clothes for the rest of his life and he is happy doing so, then more power to him. I'm not letting him be silly and have fun with everything to suddenly drop the adult bomb on him at age 7. If he won't wear a coat, I'll bring one. If he wants to wear it later, we have it. I'm going to guess that there will be a time when he is a little older that he will figure it all out. I'm not going to be following him around the halls of his school with a jacket in case he gets cold.

It is our responsibility to help our children grow. I can see how the "you didn't eat your lunch and now you're hungry and now you know" thing would work. I'm also always amazed when I learn about kids developmental abilities to find they don't always think the way we do, nor express themselves so we know what is going on. If he doesn't eat what I give him, even though he says he will, maybe he isn't hungry at the time. If he is then hungry an hour later, I'm not going to make him wait until dinner, I'll give him something I brought. I try and think about how I want to be treated, YK? If I didn't eat my lunch, and then was out and about an hour later and got hungry, I'd probably get myself a snack, not chide myself for not eating when I had the chance and suffering until dinner.

[mama ganoush]

the whole food example really bothers me. and i'm not a tcs person, or a parent that doesn't believe in boundaries or discipline-not by a long shot. bUT i am a big believer in knowing what is age appropriate for my child, and not expecting more or less from her. i know for instance, that young children's bodies are designed to graze frequently throughout the day, not just at rigidly set mealtimes. There are days that my child is just eating pretty much all day, and days when she doesn't seem to eat nearly as much. and that is exactly what she is supposed to do. Setting strict times and rules about a child's eating sets them up for life long eating issues, and doesn't respect their physical and emotional needs.

[owensmom]

ahhh, mama g, you say things so much more eloquently than I... :LOL

[mammastar2]

I don't think I'd care for the book.

I do actually use choices to some extent, e.g. bringing out a couple of different things to wear and letting dd pick, etc. I could also see letting her try not wearing a coat if she was very insistent.

However, generally she responds very well (she's 4) to me

(i) taking the time to look her in the eye and explain what needs doing and why ("I understand you don't want to wear a coat today, but today is a cold, windy day, and a coat will keep you cozy and warm),

(ii) asking open questions about what she wants to do about it (e.g. "so if you don't want to wear the coat I brought you, what can you pick that will keep you warm?" - this works better now than a year ago)

and (iii) being silly sometime ("oh no, the big fluffy winter coat is trying to get away! it doesn't want you to put it on! catch it! catch it!").

Sometimes this means things get a bit lengthy, but often not - she's used to being tuned in to what goes on around her and I think it helps her be more on the ball than if I were just using timers and cue phrases to warn her that something she dislikes is going to happen if she doesn't hop to it.

I'm really uncomfortable with setting her up to respond well to emotional manipulation - I'm doing this because I love you, do what I say if you want me to show affection, etc. I also don't feel comfortable with setting a timer around eating. To me, a timer would create a lot of anxiety and control issues around food. Granted my daughter is a slow eater, and sometimes needs reminders if we have somewhere to be, or if she's getting carried away telling a story at dinner, but I don't see the need to add a stressor to the table that way.

I realize this is a touchy subject, and previous posters obviously just selected a few examples without the full context - please don't be offended, this is just my take.

[goldrose]

Howdy all

Perhaps everyone is waiting to hear what 'goldrose the terrible mama' has to say. hehe. It appears that the posters of GD have a hard time with anything that is not natural.
("I wont shave my arms and legs, it's not natural" - well, perhaps it isnt, but it's definitely nicer-looking).
Anyway, it's definitely true that I'm not sweet all the time. Nor do I expect ANYONE (for sure little kids!) to be sweet all the time. Yet, when I'm not feeling sweet, I don't go around bashing people and hurting them. I WILL, however, take some time for myself in my room or on the couch, maybe with a book or something, and tell my children that I'm not feeling too good right now and need some peace time. A child who does not feel like being sweet is welcome to feel that way, but ACTING unsweet is another story. I don't, G-d forbid, love them or accept them less even for a second at such a time. They are welcome to feel and act unsweet away from other people who may be affected.
No, this world is not a free-for-all. Children who are brought up with loving limits are better-adjusted and feel safer. If you choose not to read Love and Logic, be my guest. It's your loss.
That said, I wish you all luck with your playful parenting. Sometimes I have time for play, sometimes I don't. Yes children like to play, and they can, and I'm happy to play with them when I am up to it. At other times, they're welcome to play with themselves, their siblings, or friends.
P.s. I"m not a mainstream mother, I don't give my children shots and I don't believe in spanking. Nor do I believe in punishing. Natural consequenses are a very effective way for children to learn.
Good luck to you all.

[Fuamami]

If I didn't eat my lunch, and then was out and about an hour later and got hungry, I'd probably get myself a snack, not chide myself for not eating when I had the chance and suffering until dinner.

I thought this was pretty eloquent.

[annab]

Natural consequenses are a very effective way for children to learn.

I would like to know what is natural about sending your child to her room.

[goldrose]

And I'd like to know what kind of person would tell their child that their SECRET NAME IS A DIRTY WORD??!

[mama ganoush]

("I wont shave my arms and legs, it's not natural" - well, perhaps it isnt, but it's definitely nicer-looking).



that's a pretty subjective opinion, like much of the rest of your post. and probably isn't a great way to meet friends in this community you've newly joined, much like the rest of your post.

[ShadowMom]

Nor do I believe in punishing.

:scratch Your example used a punishment, so I'm confused by your statement that you don't believe in punishing? Sending your daughter to her room alone when she obviously doesn't want to be there... not a punishment?

[mammastar2]

Do let's calm down. I think that most posters have been quite respectful in terms of giving their feedback to the original poster's question about the book, coupled with examples from people actually using it. I don't think sarcasm is necessary.

I agree with natural consequences. But I don't know how a child could perceive natural consequences on their own if a parent uses this type of method - all consequences seem to flow from the power relationship, at least in the examples above. I also don't want my children to grow up into relationships where there's a bad power dynamic going on, they get the short end of the stick, and they misidentify that as a 'natural consequence' that they are deserving of, if you see what I mean? To me, natural consequences should promote problem-solving abilities (what are the different ways to fix this together?), and that's hard if they're reduced to a 'do this or else.'

[annab]

And I'd like to know what kind of person would tell their child that their SECRET NAME IS A DIRTY WORD??!


??? Did I miss something?

[gaialice]

And I'd like to know what kind of person would tell their child that their SECRET NAME IS A DIRTY WORD??!

Of course, telling my child that my secret name is a dirty word is a joke. My 4 yo knows I am joking when I say that. It makes her laugh. Through laughter we reconnect. And when we are connected close she never calls me names. You will not believe how effective this is if you never try. I was at a friend's house with the kids and my guest's 4 yo son said his father was stupid. His dad sent him to time out. When he came out, he said it again. He got spanked. He went on. It was soooo sad. I do not really know what would have happened next because I picked a book and started reading loud and all the kids sat down to listen. Anyway, for anyone interested, this game of dirty words is at page 64 of Playful Parenting.

Do I have to add that a "kind of person" is my secret name?
:laugh: :laugh:

[Dar]

And I'd like to know what kind of person would tell their child that their SECRET NAME IS A DIRTY WORD??!

I thought it was kind of a funny game. Then again, I remember sitting in a car full of 4-7 year olds and listening to them sing for 40 minutes about farts, pee, poop, and "crappy", and feeling so thankful that they were all happily engaged and getting along so the other mom and I could talk. Kids are now 10-13 and all are well past the dirty words stage, with no harm done.

Sometimes I don't feel like eating at a mealtime - maybe I'm nervous or crampy and my stomach doesn't feel like food, or I'm distracted by conversation or a project that I'm thinking about. I try to trust my belly and eat when I'm hungry, because I think it helps me to keep a weight that's right for my body, and it helps me to make eating about hunger, not about the clock. Still, sometimes I misjudge, and I'm in the middle of something else and I'm suddenly hungry. I certainly don't sit there thinking, "Gee, so sad, I guess I'll have to wait 3 hours until dinner time." No, I grab a granola bar or something similar from my bag (I try to keep a stash) or hit the snack machine or if I'm out driving, I make a quick stop someone and get a bite to eat. Isn't this what normal, rational adults would do?

Just ecause your daughter made the decision to skip lunch doesn't mean she's made the decision to eat nothing until dinnertime. *You* are making that decision. That's a "fake" natural consequence, trying to make it seem like what's happening is a result of the child's actions when really it's being inflicted by the parent. It's the parent who is denying the child any food until dinnertime; that's not the child's choice.

mammastar2, I really liked your 3 approaches to the coat issue - very respectful and problem-solving oriented!

And again, I've read "Love and Logic", while really bored one evening waiting for Rain to be done with a babysitting job (and fwiw, the kids she was sitting for are definitely difficult, so I'm not thinking Love and Logic did much good for their family).

Dar

[gaialice]

Kids are now 10-13 and all are well past the dirty words stage, with no harm done.
Thanks for saying this Dar. I do like to hear that it is a phase and it shall pass. I hope it passes as for you, with no harm done, like no insulting the neighbours and calling them poopyhead. :o In fact, strange as it may seem, my game seems to have reduced to namecalling to just a game, no longer charged of bad meanings. And reduced the frequency of it, also.

[gaialice]

Sometimes I have time for play, sometimes I don't. Yes children like to play, and they can, and I'm happy to play with them when I am up to it. At other times, they're welcome to play with themselves, their siblings, or friends.
I just wanted to add that I do not spend my entire day playing with dc either. (I wish.....). Of course, my children do play by themselves, with friends and with siblings. Playful parenting is not about giving up my adult role. It is about interacting with my children in a language (play) that they understand. It means using play to overcome obstacles and to reconnect with them. It really is a great book and full of resources, and well worth a read.

[velochic]

From her training with this phrase,

...

she is so well trained


I'm sorry, but these statements just give me chills!!! :scared

Any book that has me TRAINING my child like a dog is not one that will ever find it's way to my bookshelf.

[goldrose]

for the one who said "...it works like a charm..." - just because something works, doesn't mean it is the right way to go, as you all will agree that smacking will no doubt shut the child up since he doesnt want to be hit again - it works, yes. Is it right? noway!
And I wonder what the child who thinks dirty words are secret names will do when he calls a classmate a dirty word and gets punched in the face. "but it was supposed to be a joke, a game, and silly!?!!"
And a lot more things I don't like about this specific way of dealing with dirty words.

p.s. as far as "a great way to make friends" Why? Can't you be friends with someone who has different parenting ideas than you? We don't have to agree! Also, I am not new to this community, I've been a member for a few years already.

[annab]

We don't promote the idea that any words are 'dirty'. It seems much simpler to teach that there are words that may be used in different places and that some are going to get a negative reaction. I think that using them playfully takes all the fun out of them. When you start calling them 'dirty' words or making a big deal out of 'butthead', then they become sooooo enticing.

My child would certainly know the difference between words we use in play and calling someone that at school.

[YiddisheMama]

b'h

while i may not agree with everything in the love and logic books, (although i do agree with most), the general gist of the book is teaching children responsibility. love with firm limits.

all i can say is if you haven't read the book, it's your loss, not mine. i've read it, studied it, i practice it, and i have three very happy, well-adjusted, loved, loving, fun, playful, friendly, responsible children.

we have fun together, we play games together, we do chores together, and some things are their responsibility. like making sure the dirty clothing is in the basket. my kids know that i'm happy to wash all the laundry that is inside the basket. it's their loss if a favorite shirt is still dirty because they left it on the floor. and if they want it washed, it'll be in the basket.

my children don't feel that i don't love them because i didnt wash the shirt. the know that they are the ones who made that decision.

and if my daughter who is still freshly potty trained, needs to go, but doesn't want to for whatever reason (even with my taking her), i'll do it in a fun way by asking, "do you want to skip to the bathroom or crawl to the bathroom?" instantly, her mind is occupied with thinking...and the fact that she didn't want to go isn't an issue anymore, because not going was not one of the choices i gave her.

so all you pros out there who run and do everything for your kids in the name of love, love, and love...how would you react if your 3 year old got hold of a black permanent marker and decorated the brand new ivory colored couch in the den?

just curious.

(oh, and i definitely shave my legs and my underarms)

[owensmom]

What is with all the couch grafitti examples? They are a totally different situation then the everyday 'I don't want to get a coat/go pee/put on my pajamas".

and the shaving legs "au natural" sidebar is really annoying and insulting.

[AntoninBeGonin]

Something about this really sits badly with me. It seems to me that the messages given with these statements are kind of crazy-making, in a way... combining a punishment with the phrase "I love you" seems like a recipe for making the words "I love you" very charged in a conflicted way. I think, if I was raised this way, as an adult, everytime someone said, "I love you" to me, I would, in some primal way, wait for the other shoe to drop, feel uneasy, expect something unpleasant to come next.

I guess saying "I love you" when administering a time out or something unpleasant is meant to reassure the child that even though you have to make them do this unpleasant thing, you still love them. But I think it will backfire and make love itself seem unpleasant. I think its better to reassure the child that you love them after the timeout, during the time you are verbally processing the event, and not while you are administering the punishment.



I completely agree with what your saying about "I love you" being confused with the punishments. Looking back on my childhood I'm grateful that the few times my parents spanked they never bothered to do that syrupy-sweet, forced happy hug afterwards. You know, the one mentioned in every pro-spanking article ever written. The last thing I would have ever wanted was to be hugged and kissed by someone who had just made me feel so terrible. (Even though my parents spanked so lightly they were barely noticeable. It was more the mental and emotional pain of being hit by a loved one, not the physical.) :blah

~Nay

[AntoninBeGonin]

If I didn't eat my lunch, and then was out and about an hour later and got hungry, I'd probably get myself a snack, not chide myself for not eating when I had the chance and suffering until dinner.


:yeah:

~Nay

[AntoninBeGonin]

Howdy all

It appears that the posters of GD have a hard time with anything that is not natural.
("I wont shave my arms and legs, it's not natural" - well, perhaps it isnt, but it's definitely nicer-looking).
.


*ahem** I not only shave my pits and legs, heck I even shave the old bikini zone. :mischief

~Nay

[AntoninBeGonin]

And I'd like to know what kind of person would tell their child that their SECRET NAME IS A DIRTY WORD??!


If you read the entire book, it makes a lot more sense. :) I read the book several months ago and really enjoyed it. From what I remember Cohen (at that point in the book) was dealing with older children who were very rude, ill-mannered, and disruptive. They also liked saying obscenities. So he used the game "don't say my secret name--it's dirty!" to make a game out of saying "bad words." Okay, my explanation is terrible. But it's a great book--really!

~Nay

[gaialice]

p.s. as far as "a great way to make friends" Why? Can't you be friends with someone who has different parenting ideas than you? We don't have to agree!

Of course, but then, you need to state your opinion respectfully.
Calling someone "a kind of person" in my opinion, is not.

for the one who said "...it works like a charm..." - just because something works, doesn't mean it is the right way to go, as you all will agree that smacking will no doubt shut the child up since he doesnt want to be hit again - it works, yes. Is it right? noway!

That it exactly the problem I have with your "bedroom time" approach. It works. Perhaps. Is it right? When answering to this question, you need to refer to a value system. My value system is "will this damage/enhance my relationship with my kids"? Putting them in time-out, punishing them, and of course hitting them surely damages the relation. So, in my view, they are not "right". I would like to know why, i.e. referring to which value system, you judge this particular playful parenting technique wrong

And I wonder what the child who thinks dirty words are secret names will do when he calls a classmate a dirty word and gets punched in the face. "but it was supposed to be a joke, a game, and silly!?!!"

As another poster clarified, we do also talk about different kind of words that can be used in different contexts. We talk about that when everyone is calm and noone is calling anyone a bad name. So my kids know very well that they should not use butthead to call a friend. Nevertheless, as all kids do, they will occasionally do so. And then, that's when I tried this game. And the real bonus from this game was that it made my kids see how words can be used to play or to hurt people.

And a lot more things I don't like about this specific way of dealing with dirty words.

I just made my suggestion.... you are free to like it or not. But then, I prefer an opinionated exchange of opinions.

it's their loss if a favorite shirt is still dirty because they left it on the floor. and if they want it washed, it'll be in the basket.
my children don't feel that i don't love them because i didnt wash the shirt. the know that they are the ones who made that decision.


What if your husband had a special meeting at work and forgot to put his shirt in the basket? Wiould you say "he made his decision" to go to work with a totally non-matching shirt? I am not suggesting that we should do everything for our kids. We should encourage them to be autonomous and help around the house. But punishing them for forgetting to do a chore, that is different.

[YiddisheMama]

What if your husband had a special meeting at work and forgot to put his shirt in the basket? Wiould you say "he made his decision" to go to work with a totally non-matching shirt? I am not suggesting that we should do everything for our kids. We should encourage them to be autonomous and help around the house. But punishing them for forgetting to do a chore, that is different.

that's where you and i differ. i don't see this as a punishment, it's a natural consequence. i don't "punish" my kids either. and it's never happened with my husband, and if it did, he'd wear a different shirt, no sweat.

and yes, i help them clean their room, they're still young.

but here, let me give you an example of natural consqequences.

my then 4 year old daughter autographed the walls in the bathroom. when i saw it, i did not get upset or yell or punish. i calmly said, "oh this is so sad. paper is for coloring on. what are you going to do about the walls?"

so she thought and said, "well, i can wash it off."

so i helped her get a towel and some detergent and she tried scrubbing. it did not come off (which i knew it wouldn't, but i figured i'd let her learn it by herself without me telling her.)

she came to me and said, "mommy, it's not washing off."

i asked, "oh, so what can you do about the walls?" (again, i asked this very calmly.

her: "maybe we can paint it."

me: "hmm, that could work. paint costs money, do you have enough money to buy some paint.?"

her (jumping up, all excited by the idea): "let me count"

a few minutes later...she realized she didn't have enough money.

me: "sometimes when people need money, they can do jobs to earn it. i can pay you to do some jobs you wouldn't normally be doing."

i then gave her a choice of vacuuming the living room or washing the bathroom floor. she choose the bathroom. she had a ball doing it, until the last five minutes when she started saying it was getting hard.

me: "I know, washing floors is hard work. i bet you'll be happy when you're done."

her: "can i stop now?"

me: "you can stop when you want, i only pay for completed jobs."

she finished it. collected her money. and she was very very very proid of herself.

she did a few more jobs, earned more money.

lots of lessons learned.

more lessons, going to home depot with me to buy the paint. counting money at the cash register, paying the cashier...all by herself. a very very proud and smarter 4 year old left the store.

as far as the actual painting, we discussed that she'd paint the spot where she drew and i'd do the rest of the walls so it would match.

no hurt, no pain, no anger, no threats, no spanks, just lots of fun lessons in a real life, practical way.

[mama ganoush]

you know what is really silly and irksome here? the tired notion that either you are parenting by every word of this particular book, whose whole premise perpetuates a parent vs. child dynamic as opposed to a parent and child dynamic, or you let your children run wild without any limits.

the truth is, i don't parent by any particular book. the only "expert" on my particular child is her parents. why do some many mamas here trust themselves so little and trust some man who has never even met their child and spends half the year on the lecture circuit? Reclaim your power, listen to your instincts, and parent in the way that most respects and honors your particular child.

[ShadowMom]

so all you pros out there who run and do everything for your kids in the name of love, love, and love...

See, I was actually interested in hearing more about your approach until you got insulting and condescending... then you lost me. Oh well.

[goldrose]

KristiMetz, now that was a love and logic tactic - YiddisheMama chose to say something a certain way, that resulted in your natural reaction, and now it's "oh well" so sad, you lost your interest.

[Dar]

but here, let me give you an example of natural consqequences.

These are in no way natural conseqeunces. The natural consequence of coloring on the walls is having decorated walls. "Love and Logic" is not about natural consequences, but about the author's strange version of "logical" ones.

I'm really not into turning life into "lessons". Every kid I've ever known has drawn on the walls or the furniture or something, at some point. It's normal. That's a huge fuss to make over something that is normal, and passes. A wise parent buys washable markers and pencils, and keeps anything permanent well out of reach. A wise parent also doesn't buy a brand new cream-colored sofa when she has a 3 year old... aside from being colored-on, there's the possibility of potty accidents, juice spills, muddy feet... the list goes on.

I could let you all buy cream-colored sofas and have them destroyed by your 3 year olds, but I'd prefer to share my knowledge and help you avoid some work and a ruined sofa if possible. You could tell your child that scrubbing won't work, and help her avoid some work, but you don't... you let her "learn for herself". How is this helpful? Isn't the point of having all of these boards to help each other? Maybe people who think children should learn thse things "for themselves" should have to live their own lives this way...

Dar

[Dar]

KristiMetz, now that was a love and logic tactic - YiddisheMama chose to say something a certain way, that resulted in your natural reaction, and now it's "oh well" so sad, you lost your interest.

Oh, nice. So Love and Logic includes manipulating people into respending a certain way (insulting someone is likely to provoke a lack of interest in continuing a conversation, for sure) and then blaming them for the reaction you instigated. Luckily we as adults can see through the head games and the condescending "oh well, so sad", but small children at their parents' mercy generally can't.... :(

Dar

[UUMom]

**so all you pros out there who run and do everything for your kids in the name of love, love, and love...how would you react if your 3 year old got hold of a black permanent marker and decorated the brand new ivory colored couch in the den?

just curious.**

If i had an ivory colored sofa, i would make sure it came with ivory colored washable slip covers.

If one has such a sofa and wee ones, it would make sense to have a back- up plan that didn't involve humiliating children to keep it looking a certain way.

[mama ganoush]

i would supervise my child until she was old enough to understand that art supplies are for paper. using love and logic to prevent the painted wall or sofa in the first place. rather than punish a child for age appropriate behavior.

[chfriend]

I have a turning 5 year old and a 15 month old. I have a 43 year old sofa with a slip cover. Coincidence? No.

Dp and I have fond conversations about when we'll get new stuff :) We figure when the youngest is 10 it'll be safe.

We're temporarily between wall-drawers. DD1 creates elaborate artwork. DD2 still eats the crayons.

We did have an evening recently where we covered the kitchen floor with a plastic tablecloth and big sheets of paper. We painted our hands and feet (dd2 pretty much painted herself) and did hand and foot prints.

Got lots of paint on the floor. We washed it up.

Oh, and if you have wood panel walls, you can chalk all over them. It comes right off.

I don't want to spend my short time with my children worrying about walls and furniture. As we say in our family, "People are more important than things."

It's part of an overall philosophy that we can work things out together; that we're here to help each other. My kids are an enormous help to me. I'm an enormous help to them. Dp is the greatest help I can imagine.

I was sick for 2 months, recently getting better. I required tremendous understanding from my children. They came through with empathy and understanding. All that "love, love, love" paid off big-time for me.

[Kathryn]

Wow. I am truly amazed at some of the stuff so called "gentle discipline" parents have the nerve to do to their child.

I've been anorexic for over 10 years. Wanna know why? Because of parents like the 2nd poster. Parents who give you a time limit on eating and then make you starve to your next meal because you didn't finish in time and call it a "natural consequence". I am disgusted. Do you even realize what kind of irreversible damage you could be doing? How dare you call that being a gentle parent, let alone an attachment parent. There is nothing gentle or attached about withholding food from a child or forcing them to finish within YOUR time limit. There is nothing gentle or attached about making your child cry because they wanted to play instead of putting on their pajamas. And then to be proud of her "training"?! She's not a dog! She doesn't need to be trained! She is a child, a gift, a privilege to have. Not something that needs to manipulated by a grown adult that should know better.

What has happened to this place? I can't even believe I'm on MDC anymore.

[ShadowMom]

KristiMetz, now that was a love and logic tactic - YiddisheMama chose to say something a certain way, that resulted in your natural reaction, and now it's "oh well" so sad, you lost your interest.

Yes, me losing interest in the conversation is indeed a natural consequence, is that what you're saying? I have nothing against natural consequences (as long as a child is old enough to understand and live with them) and in fact rely heavily upon them (if my DS wanted to go outside without a coat, he would be welcome to do so; if we left the house, I'd probably keep one in the car).

From what I've read of the book, and read here from people who follow this idealogy, however, I really don't think it's for me. I'm interested in reading more about natural consequences, but there are so many lively discussion here that hanging around MDC seems to be better than any book. :)

I knew there was a reason I hung around this place, even though I frequently feel stifled by the PTB.

[UUMom]

I have a terrible ache in my heart thinking of that scared and upset little 4 yr old trying to wash the wall while the mother looks on knowing she's wasting her time. That's just so sad. Why would anyone do that to a child?

[Kathryn]

I have a terrible ache in my heart thinking of that sad little 4 yr old trying to wash the wall while the mother looks on knowing she's wasting her time. That's just so sad.

Yep.

[sagira]

Whew! This thread has turned ugly.

OK, someone here (I don't remember, sorry!) mentioned to try the secret word technique. You know, perhaps I will. It seems to be a distraction. Anything to keep my son from being disrespectful and/or say bad words.

I don't say bad words (I know, some of you don't consider any words bad, but I really do :) ), and I never have. I'm big on politeness and treating other people with respect, especially treating my elders with deference because of their increased experience in life. I'm careful not to offend, and if I do accidentally, feel terrible about it and apologize.

I still maintain that the book Parenting With Love And Logic is not suitable, or recommended, IMO, for children. Perhaps some techniques would work with teenagers.

How on earth did shaving underarms and legs come into the picture? I understand the point (however obtusely made) about being "natural", but there was no need for that.

If it works for you, great. Families are so diverse it would be boring to have everyone employing the exact same parenting techniques. Considering each person's different personality and experience, it's also downright impossible IMO. Let's respect each other's differences, please.

[YiddisheMama]

I have a terrible ache in my heart thinking of that scared and upset little 4 yr old trying to wash the wall while the mother looks on knowing she's wasting her time. That's just so sad. Why would anyone do that to a child?

just for the record: my 4 year old may have been little, but she was far from scared and upset. she was actually pretty thrilled to be figuring out the solution on her own. and she knew i'd back whatever she decided. and i don't think trying to wash the wall was a waste of time, either. she learned that ink won't wash off a wall. she learned that repainting it will cover over the ink. she learned that her mommy isn't going to tell her what to do, but her mommy will support her decisions, and sometimes help direct her decisions (while she's still this young.)

[nonconformnmom]

AND she learned that when one thing doesn't work, keep trying! :) I see no harm in it.

[gaialice]

it's never happened with my husband, and if it did, he'd wear a different shirt, no sweat..
Well perhaps the example was not well chosen. Suppose your husband prepared some cookies and forgot to turn off the oven and went on to play a game on the computer. Well, the natural consequence of that is (so said) burnt cookies. Using your love and logic technique, even if you found out what was going on, you would have to let his cookies burn, so he "learns a good life lesson". I am sure you would not do that. Why? Because you love him. Because the whole family would prefer to eat nice cookies. Because you would not want your dh to feel humiliated. Because you do not want to spend the whole day cleaning the oven. Because your husband wanted to do something nice and just because of one stupid mistake everything turns bad. I could go on. How could something be "natural" when it is only applied to the children in the family and noone else but them.

[UmmBnB]

We use L&L at our house quite successfully. I held off, having read some negative reviews in another group I'm involved with, but got to a point with my very high energy 4yo where I decided to go ahead and check it out. I felt like I'd tried everything! I read it in a few days and we immediately put the methods into practice.

The result for us was a much happier child and calmer household!

I agree with some folks who don't like the tone of parts of the book. I don't either. The whole 'basic german sherpard training' thing rubbed me the wrong way. I decided not to let the language used to explain the techniques get in the way of the techniques themselves.

They work like gold for us and ds is much more content when we are on our game with L&L...when we aren't, he is more aggitated for sure.

[goldrose]

Hmmm

For all the love and logic bashers out there, I wonder what it's like in your house when your child colors on your walls -
"hmm, honey, you colored on the walls? That's ok, because people are more important than things, so you're really welcome to color on the walls, and I'll do my best not to get upset. Because the truth is, I really don't care whether my house is presentable or not. Hey, lets color on the walls together! Now, wouldnt taht be fun?!"
By the way, there is a concept of not outgrowing coloring on walls. It's called grafitti. It comes from lack of an education on how to respect people's property.

[kchoffmann]

i would supervise my child until she was old enough to understand that art supplies are for paper. using love and logic to prevent the painted wall or sofa in the first place. rather than punish a child for age appropriate behavior.

This is the part of the L&L approach for young children that bothers me too. I have a 26 mo and I would never expect - or even want - him to act like an adult or even make "adult" choices. I can't imagine wanting that until he is, well, a whole lot closer to being an adult. What is this obsession in our culture with expecting adult behavior from our children? If my son refused to wear his coat (which I can't even imagine him doing - maybe he's not old enough for this behavior?) I would bring it with me and when he got cold later, I would let him have it - as another poster said she would do too. I would never expect him to be THAT responsible for himself - even a year or two from now. I say, let them be children learning how to be children, not children learning how to be adults. There's plenty of time for that when it's developmentally appropriate.

This is interesting to me, too, because I work as a HS counselor, and we have some L&L books on the bookshelf that make loads of sense to me for adolescents. I didn't even know they had books for younger kids.

All that said, I think there is a problem with a trend in parenting lately where parents give NO real boundaries to their children. This just leads to a whole lot of angry children. But, perhaps that whole issue is irrelevant here.

[HelloKitty]

I have not read the book but I do have an acquantaince that is trying the techniques and she has told me about some of the "natural consequences" she is using for her daughter and frankly they made me feel icky. I agree with some PPs that do not feel most of the approaches are "natural consequences" at all but seem more like manipulation tactics.

The natural consequence of not putting on jammies is going to bed in daytime clothes or naked...

I'm not interested in training my children like they are dogs - children should enjoy life and not be in constant lesson learning mode.

[kchoffmann]

By the way, there is a concept of not outgrowing coloring on walls. It's called grafitti. It comes from lack of an education on how to respect people's property.

No, this is not the result of young children coloring on walls. Believe me, I work with adolescents and see what leads to children disrespecting others. It's their misplaced anger, almost always at their parents, for not ________ fill in the blank - allowing them to be themselves, loving them for who they are, listening and/or noticing their feelings, etc. I'm not saying anyone here is doing that either. I just wanted this point to be clear.

[irinam]

I have a terrible ache in my heart thinking of that scared and upset little 4 yr old trying to wash the wall while the mother looks on knowing she's wasting her time. That's just so sad. Why would anyone do that to a child?

My thoughts exactly.

I read the whole thread. I am sorry, but the examples given for following this "Love and Logic" give me chills.

I treat my kids the way I want to be treated. Yes with love. Yes with logic. But also with compassion and understanding.

My kids do not "pay" for their mistakes and are not left alone to deal with their mistakes. I'll be the first one to jump to help them.

When I make mistakes, DH (and now DS :love ) are the first ones to help me fix them. They are not afraid I will not "learn my lesson"

so all you pros out there who run and do everything for your kids in the name of love, love, and love...how would you react if your 3 year old got hold of a black permanent marker and decorated the brand new ivory colored couch in the den?

just curious

I will proudly say that I indeed do everything in the name of love.

Marked couch? I'd seriously ask myself "What was *I* thinking getting the ivory couch with kids in the house! I guess I have to live with the consequences of having the marked couch now..."

[maya44]

**so all you pros out there who run and do everything for your kids in the name of love, love, and love...how would you react if your 3 year old got hold of a black permanent marker and decorated the brand new ivory colored couch in the den?

just curious.**

If i had an ivory colored sofa, i would make sure it came with ivory colored washable slip covers.

If one has such a sofa and wee ones, it would make sense to have a back- up plan that didn't involve humiliating children to keep it looking a certain way.

I agree with UU mom. I am fairly "strict" but a three year old a permanent marker and an ivory couch are more my problem than the three year olds.

And I don't think you understand what a "natural" consequence is, YM.

Yours may be "logical" but it's not "natural" and to me it was too much for a four year old.

My reaction to my four year old writing on the walls would be to tell them that they should not have done that and that I expect them to only write on paper from now on.

[IncaMama]

that's where you and i differ. i don't see this as a punishment, it's a natural consequence. i don't "punish" my kids either. and it's never happened with my husband, and if it did, he'd wear a different shirt, no sweat.

and yes, i help them clean their room, they're still young.

but here, let me give you an example of natural consqequences.

my then 4 year old daughter autographed the walls in the bathroom. when i saw it, i did not get upset or yell or punish. i calmly said, "oh this is so sad. paper is for coloring on. what are you going to do about the walls?"

so she thought and said, "well, i can wash it off."

so i helped her get a towel and some detergent and she tried scrubbing. it did not come off (which i knew it wouldn't, but i figured i'd let her learn it by herself without me telling her.)

she came to me and said, "mommy, it's not washing off."

i asked, "oh, so what can you do about the walls?" (again, i asked this very calmly.

her: "maybe we can paint it."

me: "hmm, that could work. paint costs money, do you have enough money to buy some paint.?"

her (jumping up, all excited by the idea): "let me count"

a few minutes later...she realized she didn't have enough money.

me: "sometimes when people need money, they can do jobs to earn it. i can pay you to do some jobs you wouldn't normally be doing."

i then gave her a choice of vacuuming the living room or washing the bathroom floor. she choose the bathroom. she had a ball doing it, until the last five minutes when she started saying it was getting hard.

me: "I know, washing floors is hard work. i bet you'll be happy when you're done."

her: "can i stop now?"

me: "you can stop when you want, i only pay for completed jobs."

she finished it. collected her money. and she was very very very proid of herself.

she did a few more jobs, earned more money.

lots of lessons learned.

more lessons, going to home depot with me to buy the paint. counting money at the cash register, paying the cashier...all by herself. a very very proud and smarter 4 year old left the store.

as far as the actual painting, we discussed that she'd paint the spot where she drew and i'd do the rest of the walls so it would match.

no hurt, no pain, no anger, no threats, no spanks, just lots of fun lessons in a real life, practical way.


:( this feels so sad to me. i'm sure you had the best intentions and it seems that your daughter weathered it well, but there were several moments of sheer disappointment that could have been avoided...and i don't understand why you chose to have her go through them?

[IncaMama]

Hmmm

For all the love and logic bashers out there, I wonder what it's like in your house when your child colors on your walls -
"hmm, honey, you colored on the walls? That's ok, because people are more important than things, so you're really welcome to color on the walls, and I'll do my best not to get upset. Because the truth is, I really don't care whether my house is presentable or not. Hey, lets color on the walls together! Now, wouldnt taht be fun?!"
By the way, there is a concept of not outgrowing coloring on walls. It's called grafitti. It comes from lack of an education on how to respect people's property.

my 2.5yo son has pretty much learned that he's not supposed to color on walls (i'm sure he'll mess up at some point)...the way we taught him was that every time he tried (first of all i was always around when he had implements of drawing) i'd say "rowan, we use our crayons on paper. here, let's draw something together". if he kept trying to draw on the wall i'd say something like "please don't draw on the wall, we draw on paper instead." if he tried a third time...well, i don't think there ever was a third time. i'm not saying he only EVER tried twice, but in each "session" there was never a third time.

he also always said "sorry" when he did it...which is something that i have never EVER told him to say. i've said it to him when i'm really sorry about something (like i accidentally did something that affected him negatively in some way) but i've NEVER told him to say please, thank you, or sorry. he just sort of picked it up. anyway, when he said "Sorry" for drawing on the walls i'd just say "it's ok, i make mistakes too. let's draw a picture on the paper" (or something similar).

so...anyway, since you were asking how someone else would handle it...that's how i handled it.

oh...also, when he was really little...we let him draw on one section of one wall with soap. washes off easily and was a load of fun for him. :)

[TortelliniMama]

I have a terrible ache in my heart thinking of that scared and upset little 4 yr old trying to wash the wall while the mother looks on knowing she's wasting her time. That's just so sad. Why would anyone do that to a child?
That example didn't bother me nearly as much as some of the previous ones, actually. It went on way too long, and turned a minor incident into a huge deal, but it didn't seem as traumatic for the little girl as some other examples. I guess, based on what I've been reading about L&L, I was expecting something more like this:

"Oh, this is so sad. Since you wrote on the bathroom walls, I'm going to have to lock you out of the bathroom for a month. Here's a bucket to use instead." :shrug

[irinam]

"Oh, this is so sad. Since you wrote on the bathroom walls, I'm going to have to lock you out of the bathroom for a month. Here's a bucket to use instead." :shrug

You forgot to add "I love you!"

[Starflower]

I was initially curious about this thread because they are offering a Love & Logic workshop at our local YMCA. From what I have seen here, it doesn't sound like something I'd be interested in though. No big deal.

However, what's more disappointing is not that the book may not be to my liking, but that some of the comments here are so rude and condescending.

Even if I thought the book might be of interest to me, the "flavor" this thread has taken would probably make me put it back on the shelf. :shake

[AntoninBeGonin]

my then 4 year old daughter autographed the walls in the bathroom. when i saw it, i did not get upset or yell or punish. i calmly said, "oh this is so sad. paper is for coloring on. what are you going to do about the walls?"

so she thought and said, "well, i can wash it off."

so i helped her get a towel and some detergent and she tried scrubbing. it did not come off (which i knew it wouldn't, but i figured i'd let her learn it by herself without me telling her.)

she came to me and said, "mommy, it's not washing off."

i asked, "oh, so what can you do about the walls?" (again, i asked this very calmly.

her: "maybe we can paint it."

me: "hmm, that could work. paint costs money, do you have enough money to buy some paint.?"

her (jumping up, all excited by the idea): "let me count"

a few minutes later...she realized she didn't have enough money.

me: "sometimes when people need money, they can do jobs to earn it. i can pay you to do some jobs you wouldn't normally be doing."

i then gave her a choice of vacuuming the living room or washing the bathroom floor. she choose the bathroom. she had a ball doing it, until the last five minutes when she started saying it was getting hard.

me: "I know, washing floors is hard work. i bet you'll be happy when you're done."

her: "can i stop now?"

me: "you can stop when you want, i only pay for completed jobs."

she finished it. collected her money. and she was very very very proid of herself.

she did a few more jobs, earned more money.

lots of lessons learned.

more lessons, going to home depot with me to buy the paint. counting money at the cash register, paying the cashier...all by herself. a very very proud and smarter 4 year old left the store.

as far as the actual painting, we discussed that she'd paint the spot where she drew and i'd do the rest of the walls so it would match.

no hurt, no pain, no anger, no threats, no spanks, just lots of fun lessons in a real life, practical way.

I know everyone is jumping on YM about this, but from what I know about 4 year olds, I'd say that there was nothing wrong with how she handled the situation. You have to remember, four year olds are kids, but they are not even close to the same level of kid as a toddler or two-three year old.

I was the oldest child of four, spent many years baby-sitting, and worked as a daycare teacher up until I had my son. I've been around many kids in my life. Most four year olds I've met like being treated more like an adult, as in they enjoy helping with difficult decisions. I hope I'm making sense--I'm not great at explaining myself. :) Now, don't read my words wrong and try to accuse me of saying four year olds should run out, get jobs, and ACT like adults. No, I did not say that. I said they like to be treated more like an adult. That means they (again, the ones I've known--not necessarily your kids) are perfectly happy to be asked to brainstorm ideas to clean up their messes, etc.

Also, I don't understand the Natural Consequences/Not Natural Consequences attack going on here. Obviously, the natural consequence of writing on walls is to just let the writing stay there indefinitely. Why should the mother have to be punished by cleaning the child's mess any more than the child does? So, in this situation natural consequences aren't really an option. In this particular situation prevention would have been the best policy, but we all know kids are pretty good at climbing and finding things we think are out of reach. Heck, my 13 month old has climbed from the floor to the kitchen table! I know a four year old could probably climb onto, or open nearly anything in a house to get to what she wanted. So, laying the blame on the mom--"Why didn't you put that away!" isn't fair either.

Basically, I don't see anything wrong with how the mom reacted. The daughter sounds like a mature four year old, she was asked for her help and cooperation, she thought of ways to right a wrong, and was not hurt in the process.

~Nay

[mama ganoush]

Hmmm

For all the love and logic bashers out there, I wonder what it's like in your house when your child colors on your walls -
"hmm, honey, you colored on the walls? That's ok, because people are more important than things, so you're really welcome to color on the walls, and I'll do my best not to get upset. Because the truth is, I really don't care whether my house is presentable or not. Hey, lets color on the walls together! Now, wouldnt taht be fun?!"


my child has never colored on walls because i supervised her when she used art supplies until she knew for sure what materials it is appropriate to use with them. i would no more leave my 4 year old with a permanent marker than i would a knife. if something i valued, like my couch, was ruined by my unsupervised child, i would figure that was MY natural consequence, not my dd's.

[Victorian]

I think that the problem that I have with L&L (and yes, I have read the book) is that it takes a CHILD and uses LOGIC that only applies to adults. Yes it is OK to have expectations of children and even rules for the house, but you can't expect a small child to see the logic in your actions. You see (as an example): not getting dressed for bed and being sassy = going to room till willing to cooperate. The child sees: I am a bad girl and mommy doesn't love me when I am.

It is all about having age appropriate expections of our children. Letting them be children. Letting them grow up secure in the knowledge that you love them and no matter what you will not abandon them. Or else, how can you expect them to come to you when they are 16 and at a party where their ride is drunk???

As for the poor written on couch...My daughter painted our futon frame with ketsup on day. We told her that it is for fries, not furniture. She laughed, we laughed, we all worked together to clean it up. This is what being a parent is about. Helping our children gracefully learn to be adult, slowly over many, many years. It is not about punishing them into perfect behavior at all times (and what you are describing about them making you sad and going to their rooms is a punishment).

But then, I am just a hairy mom trying to understand why someone would come to a NATURAL parenting website and insult NATURAL women. :shrug...oh the mysteries of this world...

Victorian

(who is two more terms away from a BA in Child/Family Studies - WOOHOO)

[mama ganoush]

I think that the problem that I have with L&L (and yes, I have read the book) is that it takes a CHILD and uses LOGIC that only applies to adults. Yes it is OK to have expectations of children and even rules for the house, but you can't expect a small child to see the logic in your actions. You see (as an example): not getting dressed for bed and being sassy = going to room till willing to cooperate. The child sees: I am a bad girl and mommy doesn't love me when I am.

It is all about having age appropriate expections of our children. Letting them be children. Letting them grow up secure in the knowledge that you love them and no matter what you will not abandon them. Or else, how can you expect them to come to you when they are 16 and at a party where their ride is drunk???

As for the poor written on couch...My daughter painted our futon frame with ketsup on day. We told her that it is for fries, not furniture. She laughed, we laughed, we all worked together to clean it up. This is what being a parent is about. Helping our children gracefully learn to be adult, slowly over many, many years. It is not about punishing them into perfect behavior at all times (and what you are describing about them making you sad and going to their rooms is a punishment).

But then, I am just a hairy mom trying to understand why someone would come to a NATURAL parenting website and insult NATURAL women. :shrug...oh the mysteries of this world...

Victorian

(who is two more terms away from a BA in Child/Family Studies - WOOHOO)



:throb

[liawbh]

And that's one more reason to :heartbeat V.!

[irinam]

Wonderful post Victorian. Mind if I quote you sometimes?

[Kathryn]

I :heartbeat you Victorian. :throb

[zipworth]

I don't even know Victorian and I love her from the one post I have read. You will be wonderful in your career working with families and children.

Back to lurkdum....... :)

[zipworth]

Just wanted to add.....

I have read this whole thread! It has turned ugly in spots but is a facinating debate that I have come across many, many, times in my job as an early childhood educator. Without rambling into oblivion about child psychology and developmentally appropriate expectations for children, my experience as an early childhood educator and as a parent has helped me learn a few things.

1) Children respond to genuine emotions expressed genuinely, and do not respond well in the long term to being manipulated. Nor do adults. Just because we are older and'wiser' doesn't make it o.k. to try to trick them. I don't like it when people do this to me-it's just disrespectful. Sying things like "That's so sad" when something isn't sad just is false. Frustrating maybe? But then, that's your problem. I know a lot of daycare teachers who used this tactic on children and it was kind of rediculous to watch. Some children responded to it by complying the first few times, but then most rejected that form of manipulation by exhibiting even more extreme behaviours.

2) Imposing consequences that make no sense-just makes no sense yk? My son is a very slow eater. If I had to be somewhere and he hadn't finished eating I would explain the situation to him and let him choose a snack to bring along. I would do the same thing for myself if the situation were reversed.

3) Preserving the dignity of the child is so important. No, they are not little adults cognitively, but they have the same emotions as us. They have rights too! Just because were are adults doesn't mean that our needs and emotions are more important. My son doen't have the same amount of information that I do about life, but his feelings matter to me deeply. If he refuses to put clothes on and it is really cold in our house (our house is chilly in the mornings) I try to respect that but I have his clothes nearby in case he changes his mind, which he almost always does.

4) Someday these children will be taking care of US when we are old and feeble! Do we really want them to learn the way to care for someone is to coerce and manipulate??? I don't want Liam saying to me...."Sorry mom, but you were too slow eating your lunch so you'll have to wait 4 hours till dinner is served. Maybe next time you'll be faster."???

5) I have worked for ten years with children under 6. I started off using a lot of manipulation because I didn't know any other way. I still have some days when my brain isn't working and slip back into the occasional coercive tactic, but I try very hard to be as respectful and concious of the child's emotions as I possibly can. I can tell you that it is way more difficult but infinitely more rewarding to work with and love small children while respecting their emotions and humanity. And people really are more important than things.


I will have to read Parenting with Love and Logic before I can comment on it.........

Sorry for this long, rambling, somewhat off topic post :flipped :nut

[mamadawg]

Reason #10098374 why I love Victorian so much.

[irinam]

I don't know Natalie... I am afraid I disagree with you on your last point.
















I saw you post as coherent, very much on topic and completely relevant :LOL

I love reading posts where mamas can express themselves so eloquently :thumb

[Minky]

Hmmm

For all the love and logic bashers out there, I wonder what it's like in your house when your child colors on your walls -
"hmm, honey, you colored on the walls? That's ok, because people are more important than things, so you're really welcome to color on the walls, and I'll do my best not to get upset. Because the truth is, I really don't care whether my house is presentable or not. Hey, lets color on the walls together! Now, wouldnt taht be fun?!"
By the way, there is a concept of not outgrowing coloring on walls. It's called grafitti. It comes from lack of an education on how to respect people's property.

This is why I never come into this forum.

If I was gentle all the time, the walls would be crayoned, DD would go outside in her bathing suit in December, we would never make it to preschool, doctor's appointments, or play dates, and there would be candy bars for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

I have not read the natural consequences book but my approach to discipline is a lot closer to what Gold Rose does than what I've seen in the rest of the threads in here. I have found that when DD learn's the consequences of her actions, she does not need as much discipline, gentle or otherwise, and has learned a lot of the responsibilities that she now likes, such as getting PJs on at night, picking an outfit in the morning within reason, helping select meal's within reason.

[HelloKitty]

If I was gentle all the time, the walls would be crayoned, DD would go outside in her bathing suit in December, we would never make it to preschool, doctor's appointments, or play dates, and there would be candy bars for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Do you really feel this way???? I think you have confused gentle discipline with NO discipline. There really is a difference. Please stick around and try to learn about it - you might be pleasantly surprised.

I'm gentle with my children and my walls are not crayoned, my son wears warm clothes in the winter (they may not be matching however) and we go to playdates and a parent / child class each week. We are very rarely late. Oh and I don't have candy bars in my house (at least not ones that my sons know about! My chocolate is hidden :wink )

[The4OfUs]

This is why I never come into this forum.

If I was gentle all the time, the walls would be crayoned, DD would go outside in her bathing suit in December, we would never make it to preschool, doctor's appointments, or play dates, and there would be candy bars for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
This widespread misconception of gentle discipline bothers me. So many people believe that gentle=doormat. That is NOT always the case! I use gentle discipline and my walls are not crayoned, my son wears appropriate seasonal clothing (though not always matching), we make it to our appointments on time, and eats healthy food (mostly :wink ).

My definition of gentle discipline most assuredly contains 'discipline'...I just do it gently, keeping my son's spirit intact and treating him the way I would want to be treated. I don't always get my way or get what I want in life, and neither does he. But, I try to explain things to him as they happen so he will learn along the way, and as he gets older I will look for his input in problem solving. At this point in his development, I redirect my son to things he *can* do instead of just telling him he *can't* do something...I give him ample time for transitions and talk to him about them the whole time. I engage him in helping me get things ready to go, and will continue to do this and have races, or silly games with him to get things done as he gets older.

what I do NOT do is: Berate him, tell him he's "bad" (or imply that he's bad by saying he's not being sweet), send him away to be by himself if he does something inappropriate, or force him to pay the price for the consequences of making 'decisions' he can't possibly comprehend at his age (and I won't do that in the future). Basically, I treat him the way I would like to be treated, keeping in mind his intellectual, social, and emotional development and his age; I treat him the way I treat my parents, my dear friends; the way I expect my DH to treat me. He'll learn how life works by living life with us, and I'm sure DH and I will learn a few things from him along the way.

...and, I do NOT let him run around the house doing as he pleases.

Please realize that though there are some who practice a lower intervention style of gentle parenting (and even those who practice low intervention parenting are still actively sdiscussing things with their children, not just letting them run wild), there are those of us that do set limits and boundaries, but do it gently, without arbitrary consequences and without major emotional manipulation.

ALSO....I make mistakes, plenty of them. All I can do is regroup and keep trying, and apologize if I need to. Just as I would to my DH, my mom, my friend. Nobody's perfect....I sure don't want my children to try to be, or be afraid if they're not.

:grouphug

[The4OfUs]

Do you really feel this way???? I think you have confused gentle discipline with NO discipline. There really is a difference. Please stick around and try to learn about it - you might be pleasantly surprised.

I'm gentle with my children and my walls are not crayoned, my son wears warm clothes in the winter (they may not be matching however) and we go to playdates and a parent / child class each week. We are very rarely late. Oh and I don't have candy bars in my house (at least not ones that my sons know about! My chocolate is hidden :wink )
Hello Kitty, we cross posted! Glad to know I'm not alone out here!!

[Attila the Honey]

Ok, I read this whole thread. At times it made me totally :huh

I just wanted to say that my immediate reaction to the L+L examples is that they are so... fake? So lacking in genuiness. I don't put on an act when I interact with my dd, I don't do this whole "I am so sad, this is so sad" roleplay, and I can't imagine that doing that could be part of a healthy relationship. We value honesty and sincerity in this family. When my 2yo wants to play and I am in a rush, it doesn't make me SAD. It may make me frustrated, but ultimately that is my problem as my 2yo is (usually) acting precisely as a 2yo was meant to act.

Regarding drawing on the walls, generally my theory is that there shouldn't be unsupervised access to crayons and markers before the child is old enough to understand where to use them. But, accidents happen and it happened here just last week. It didn't occur to me that this was a big deal, that drawing on walls would lead to her becoming a graffiti artist! I didn't even consider there was a long drawn out bit of theatrics involved. I just told her, in a straightforward and kind way, that if we all drew on walls our house would look icky and we really need to clean that up. Then, she 'helped' while I cleaned it off. (Magic Erasers really are magic, one swipe and it was gone. We keep a pkg for just this sort of emergency.) Then I found a better hiding spot for the crayons. :)

I'll be on the lookout for cans of spraypaint hidden under her bed in the coming years, though.

I love you! :heartbeat :p

[maya44]

This is why I never come into this forum.

If I was gentle all the time, the walls would be crayoned, DD would go outside in her bathing suit in December, we would never make it to preschool, doctor's appointments, or play dates, and there would be candy bars for breakfast, lunch and dinner.



You really do need to learn more about GD.

My style of GD does not involve any of those things.

You can tell your child that no they can't write on the walls, go outside dressed inappropriately, that they must be on time for things and still be gentle about it.

My way of being gentle is that while I am willing to say "no' and set rules, I don't feel the need to "back that up" with much in the way of consequences. I will remove temporarily the means of misbehavior to protect the person or property of another but that is about it.

You can also tell them they can't have only candy for meals and still be gentle but in our house, you can have a portion it for lunch and dinner and if you don't want to eat anything else that is your business.
Not one of my children has EVER been interested in eating nothing but candy for a meal, they think its gross!

[monkey's mom]

Seriously. Maya's style and my style are very different, and we don't have those issues either.

[maya44]

Seriously. Maya's style and my style are very different, and we don't have those issues either.


Exactly. There are many styles of GD. But none involve consequences just to "teach your child a lesson" that is punishment and its really not necessary at all.

[UUMom]

What an absolutely absurd turn this conversation has taken!

None of my children have ever crayoned walls or used markers on the sofa. As soon as I get a blog, I'll come back to this thread and post pix of the house we've lived in for 11 years-- since my third was an infant, my second was 2 and my oldest was 6. My youngest was born in this home. I think you be might surprised at how the home of 4 gently raised children wouldn't look like the Super Dome after Katrina.


If anyone has web space, i can email pix.

[Victorian]

I forgot to mention on my post that my dd never painted our futon again :)

Also, she is extremely spirited (or spit-fire as my mom would have proudly said). I find that 99% of problems can be avoided with careful planning and making her aware of the situation (i.e. next week you have a dr. appointment, tomorrow you have an appointment, in two hours, we leave in 1/2 hour..etc.) We get to school on time because we plan to. We set out clothes for her to wear the entire week on Sunday. We keep choices of breakfast food in the house that she likes.

We are not perfect, our parenting has seen HIGHS and lows. But in the low times, it is horrible and obvious that it is not working. So we hurry to change back to more effective disciple.

But to be honest, I'd have to pick up the train pieces if the governor was coming to dinner (which he rarely does - so it seems silly to stress about it). If it was Mamadawg, probabley wouldn't :LOL

Victorian

p.s. :embarrassed I :love all of you too :)

[mamadawg]

Ha! You wouldn't pick up for me but you would for old Ted?

Your priorities are all mixed up, V. :tsk

[UUMom]

Ha! You wouldn't pick up for me but you would for old Ted?

Your priorities are all mixed up, V. :tsk


LOL

There. Now I feel better again.

[Dar]

UUMom - you can get a free account at www.photobucket.com and upload photos there for free, or email 'em to me and I'll do it and send you the URLS. I can vouch for your beautiful home, too, based on the photos I've seen.

It strikes me that many of the parents who object to gentle discipline are coming from a hugely fearful place... we *must* treat our children in these punitive ways or they'll run wild and become juvenile delinquent graffiti artists who eat candy bars all day long. There's this idea that if parents ease up on their children, the children will run amuck... this idea that children are these feral bundles of id who will naturally do horrid things unless "trained", that they're born bad and must be trained to be good. It must be really hard to live with that kind of fear, to not be able to be gentle because you are so afraid that your child will turn into a hooligan if you do.

There's a whole world of options besides Love and Logic ("Gee, so sad,") and "Sure, honey, go color on the walls and have a candy bar".

It's kind of funny, I do know a family that lives in a house where all of the walls are colored on with crayon, pencil, marker, whatever... and this is the family that owns "Love and Logic", this is where I read it.

Dar

[Victorian]

if it was the prior gov. I would put away the toys, send the kids to granny's house and get out the lacey stuff...hubba, hubba!

if you put on cowboy boots, I could be swayed.

V.

[mamadawg]

As long as I don't have to wear a big belt buckle, I'll consider it, V.


Ok, back on topic:

It strikes me that many of the parents who object to gentle discipline are coming from a hugely fearful place... we *must* treat our children in these punitive ways or they'll run wild and become juvenile delinquent graffiti artists who eat candy bars all day long. There's this idea that if parents ease up on their children, the children will run amuck... this idea that children are these feral bundles of id who will naturally do horrid things unless "trained", that they're born bad and must be trained to be good. It must be really hard to live with that kind of fear, to not be able to be gentle because you are so afraid that your child will turn into a hooligan if you do.

I think this is the crux of the issue here.

[UUMom]

UUMom - you can get a free account at www.photobucket.com and upload photos there for free, or email 'em to me and I'll do it and send you the URLS. I can vouch for your beautiful home, too, based on the photos I've seen.

It strikes me that many of the parents who object to gentle discipline are coming from a hugely fearful place... we *must* treat our children in these punitive ways or they'll run wild and become juvenile delinquent graffiti artists who eat candy bars all day long. There's this idea that if parents ease up on their children, the children will run amuck... this idea that children are these feral bundles of id who will naturally do horrid things unless "trained", that they're born bad and must be trained to be good. It must be really hard to live with that kind of fear, to not be able to be gentle because you are so afraid that your child will turn into a hooligan if you do.

There's a whole world of options besides Love and Logic ("Gee, so sad,") and "Sure, honey, go color on the walls and have a candy bar".

It's kind of funny, I do know a family that lives in a house where all of the walls are colored on with crayon, pencil, marker, whatever... and this is the family that owns "Love and Logic", this is where I read it.

Dar

I promise i won't even tidy up if i post pics. It's quite 'lived-in'. lol It's just not colored on. I hope I didn't sound prsssy--just this belief that our children will smear their chocolate bars all over the place...crazy.

You are very right about fear. We've talked about that before, and I appreciate very much your articulate way of expressing that. Thanks again, Dar.

Yk, we have some lovely uschooling friends whose children do decorate their walls- and it is *beautiful*. They have these wonderful quotes painted all over their home, and the children have painted their bedroom doors a riot of awesome colors. I love that, too. My home isn't like that. While we do have children's art work everywhere, we don't paint the walls in this way. And that's because we just aren't as cool as this other family.

I also admit, i find i feel much calmer in plain-ish surroundings. I am not a clutter bug and i do like to keep the walkways clear. lol But I am always happy to be at this particular friends home, and I am always delighted by the little painted surprises I find everywhere. It's so creative and fun.

[annab]

Great thread, great thread, great thread. This is exactly WHY I come to this forum. Spirited exchange of ideas, no pussy-footing around, intelligent mommas who champion the rights of their children to be children.

Dar and V.--excellent point. Not going to re-quote here, because everyone else had--kudos!

And my two cents--DO NOT be afraid that your children will be tyrants if you are gentle with them. So much better to teach and guide than to be harsh and bossy. Do I loose it and yell sometimes? Hell, yeah! But when I take a breath and remember how much I adore the little soul in the body that is making me nuts, it is sooo easy to be gentle and to protect his little heart.

[TortelliniMama]

Yk, we have some lovely uschooling friends whose children do decorate their walls- and it is *beautiful*. They have these wonderful quotes painted all over their home, and the children have painted their bedroom doors a riot of awesome colors. I love that, too. My home isn't like that. While we do have children's art work everywhere, we don't paint the walls in this way. And that's because we just aren't as cool as this other family.
And I'll bet the children in that family don't visit other people and start painting the walls of their (the other people's) houses. A lot of times I've heard people's reactions to these sort of parenting choices be, "But then they'll think they can do that everywhere!" Kids just don't get credited with the ability to discriminate one situation from another. :(

[AntoninBeGonin]

Kids just don't get credited with the ability to discriminate one situation from another. :(

I completely agree. Dh and I are teaching Ds (13.5 months) that whether something is allowed or not has to do with where you are at the moment. Want to throw things in this house? Go right ahead, just don't throw hard objects at people (at least until you've learned to control that arm ;) ) Want to throw things across the room in a restaurant? Not quite such a good idea. :p

~Nay

[annab]

And I'll bet the children in that family don't visit other people and start painting the walls of their (the other people's) houses. A lot of times I've heard people's reactions to these sort of parenting choices be, "But then they'll think they can do that everywhere!" Kids just don't get credited with the ability to discriminate one situation from another. :(

Excellent point!

We have two cabinets in the house in which we need to have child locks for my peace of mind. I have a friend who does not believe in them. Not because they send a strong 'no' signal, which is why I am not wild about having them. She does it because she thinks they will get into everyone else's cabinets. My son has been to many, many houses that do not have locks on poisonous substances, and he has never gotten into their cabinets.

[goldrose]

Hmmm

For all the love and logic bashers out there, I wonder what it's like in your house when your child colors on your walls -
"hmm, honey, you colored on the walls? That's ok, because people are more important than things, so you're really welcome to color on the walls, and I'll do my best not to get upset. Because the truth is, I really don't care whether my house is presentable or not. Hey, lets color on the walls together! Now, wouldnt taht be fun?!"
By the way, there is a concept of not outgrowing coloring on walls. It's called grafitti. It comes from lack of an education on how to respect people's property.

[the_lissa]

Why would you copy and paste your last post? Did you even read the replies?

[PatchyMama]

I am so sad to read this thread. Not because I support Love and Logic.. but because I am being forced to take a Love & Logic class and this thread confirmed my gut feeling about it.

DD goes to a co-operative preschool that she absolutely adores. I love it too... everything there is gentle in their way of dealing with the children, its very focused on play versus school and is completely led by what the children want to do/learn. Unfortunately one of the parental requrements is a Love and Logic class. :( I went to the first class and had a sinking feeling in my stomach that I would completely disagree with this class. I even talked to Kyla's teacher about it asking if there was something I could do to substitute for taking the class... but no go. So now I am even more upset that I have to waste my time with this class and I have to pay $105 for it... ugh. Maybe I can insert some UP ideas into discussions and get the teachers interested in