Need latch ideas for newborn boy that spent 6 days in NICU being forced a bottle...

[BodoGirl]

I've gotten him on my boob, but man does he hurt me when he does 'latch' on. I know his latch is wrong, but I let him continue, because at least he's sucking and getting some of me.

I'm also pumping for him so DH is able to feed him, but I'm at a loss as to what to do. It's gotten to where I don't want to feed him at the breast because he can be such a beast and when he does start sucking, he's really hurting me.

My DD, I had twins, has no problem latching and going to town. In fact, I am night nursing her and she's exclusively breast fed.

Part of my dilema in all this, is I can just keep DS on a bottle, but I don't think I"m bonding very well with him. Dont' get me wrong, I love him, but I don't know him as well as my dd. I'm afraid to keep putting him on the breast because of the nipple pain, but like I said, I feel lucky to have him latch on at all - even if it is just hte nipple.

Ideas? I have tried to take my nipple out of his mouth and keep trying to get him latched correctly, but i"m getting nowhere. He keeps curling his bottom lip in.

He was in NICU because of the breathing thing, but they wouldn't let him out until he took 8 consecutive bottles at 45 ml of formula each. This took awhile because he was slightly premature. We still are dealing with nipple confusion.

Today I took him off the crappy nipples the hospital uses (the similac ones) and put him on AVent bottles. I figure this will at least get him closer to my breast. But, he's slow to suck on this too. Poor kid. Talk about nipple confusion. Breast, and 2 different bottle nipples.

I'm just at my wits end and don't know what to do. I don't want to give up on him at the breast. My next LLL meeting isn't until this coming Wed I think. I plan on taking him with me ot the meeting to see if they can help.

I also had a great lactation consultant at the hospital, but that's 30 miles away and I'd have to bring my DD twin to DS too. If you all feel I should, then I will call for an appt with her. She really helped me with him in NICU to get on the breast.

TIA!

[alegna]

Oh my- :hug

First off- what hospital was this? BAD BAD hospital. They should not have given formula at all. They should have been willing to not give bottles.

Yes, his latch will be bad for a bit. You need to get him off the bottles, you can do it. Start offering the breast LONG before he will be hungry. Offer offer offer. If he will nurse, let him nurse as long as he will. Reduce the bottles. Get rid of them within a week or two if at all possible.

Feel free to pm me, I'm in your area and would be glad to chat.

-Angela

[BodoGirl]

Women's. I swear I have never encountered SO MUCH RESISTANCE to breast feeding in my life! Esp because I had twins. It was INCREDIBLY horrible!

If i hadn't already done my homework and been preparing and committed to breastfeeding, I probably would have walked out of that hospital a completely bottle feeding mother.

The general nursery nazi's were proud of themselves when my premature NB dd took 80 ML of formula. EXCUSE ME. Her stomach probably doesn't even hold 30 ML. Geez.

It was a complete nightmare and I will not go back there again.

the only positive out of that hospital was the lactation consultant. OH and she was my 2nd consultant. The first one told me that I shouldn't expect my babies to eat until their due date. Which, btw isn't until NOv 23. So WTF was she saying? I should bottle feed until then? Geez. For her info,my milk is in full force. I've got to get up in the middle of the ngiht to pump so that I don't spray everywhere on my babies. This is of course after my munchkins have a chance to munch.

I'm trying to bear through the pain of DS. Do you have ANY ideas to force his bottom lip out? Or are you saying it will just happen eventually?

The way I'm doing things now, is I'm nursing him first, usually until he falls asleep. Then, if he wakes hungry, or if I can't stand it anymore, someone else is giving him formula. I tried the supplementer (not the box one,but a temporary one designed for short term use), but he didn't suck any of it down, so I don't know what was going on there. I know he was sucking my nipple becuase his mouth had that milky white look to it when he pulled off. So maybe I just didn't stick that little tube in his mouth correctly.... h mmm..

THanks for writing back. I'm one desparate momma right now!

Christy

[spero]

That SUCKS!!! BAD BAD hospital is damn right! They never offered to give your baby expressed breastmilk?!?!?!?!? :soapbox:

They should have been willing to not give bottles.

I don't know about premature infants, but my NICU baby had a collapsed lung and a chest tube; and I could not hold/nurse her until she stabilized - she received BM via an OG tube the first day, then bottles of expressed BM for two days. I was fortunate to be in a NICU where breastfeeding is encouraged...they have a pumping room with 5 private stations, a large freezer, and all the supplies for expressing/storing/transporting BM; right within the NICU. We were there for 5 days, and I never once saw a bottle of formula the entire time. All four babies in my DD's nursery were receiving expressed BM. I was encouraged to start pumping immediately upon the decision to transfer my DD to another hospital (she was born in a smaller hosp w/no NICU), and the transport team took the milk I had expressed right along in the ambulance.

BodoGirl - have you considered seeing a lactation consultant again? I know there is a LLL group in the Houston area that kerikadi has attended.

[alegna]

Okay- bottom lip is the easiest latch issue to fix IMO. Just stick your finger in there and put the lip where it needs to be (flared out) My dd needed that done a lot at first (other than that her latch was fine- just had a small mouth, high palate and a STRONG suck- she mauled my nipples...) Watch that lip.. Every time it curls under, pop it back out. I found that once the lip was out, the tongue usually went in the right place.

Eeeewwww.... womens. Figures... I swear I will never have a hospital birth in this city unless I arrive in an ambulance having a life-threatening emergency. It is a hostile hostile environment.

I think I saw you on one of the Houston yahoogroups, yes?

:hug

Where abouts are you in Houston?

feel free to email me. alegna@houston.rr.com

good luck,

-Angela

[LeosMama]

Everybody here who sees my posts will roll their eyes I'm sure (b/c I recommend this to many mothers whose babies are having latch problems)...
but if pulling the lip out doesn't fix it, you should ask your lactation consultant to recommend a speech language pathologist. There are some terrific therapies that can help teach a baby to use his mouth properly. I would recommend this ASAP.

Please let us know how it goes.

[Lousli]

It took my preemie daughter (number 2) three months to learn to bf after having to tube/bottle feed in the NICU. She had difficulty compressing enouh breast tissue with her small mouth and poor latch, so I used a nipple shield and gradually weaned her fom it and onto the breast alone. Some LC's will say to never use one, some will say in certain circumstances...it worked for us though. My LC was invaluable.

[sarahloughmiller]

Congrats on your twins! I have 8 weeks old twin boys, feel free to pm or email me if you have any twin questions I could help you with.

So sorry you had such a bad hospital experience. I would just keep offering and pulling his bottom lip out. I would not suggest letting him continue if it is hurting you that bad, take him off and keep trying or pull his lip out to correct the latch. Your nipples will go so sore you won't want either baby touching them. I also used a nipple shield with ds. I know some say you should never use them, but they work for some people. If you can not get him latched on correctly at all you might want to consider it and then ween him off it once he is nursing good. I think that if the alternative is a bottle then you are much better off using a shield.

[Lousli]

I know some say you should never use them, but they work for some people. If you can not get him latched on correctly at all you might want to consider it and then ween him off it once he is nursing good. I think that if the alternative is a bottle then you are much better off using a shield.

ITA with this. My dd is 10.5 months old, and nursing like a champ after using the shield for nearly 3 months. eaning her off it was a long difficult process, butso worth it. I used a shield very briefly with my first as well, but she was off it in less than 2 weeks.

[justmama]

My dd was a 34weeker who was NG-fed ebm as soon as possible. Yeah she got formula but they made sure to call my room at each and every feeding to see if I had milk yet or if I had pumped colostrum for them to add to her formula. Her head nurse called my room to wake me every 2 hours so I could pump and she taught dh and I how to hook up the pump for her NG feeds so that she could bf WHILE getting NG feeds to associate her tummy filling up with being at the breast. And she STILL had tons of difficulties bf'ing at first. A preemie who has left the hospital is barely able to maintain his or her own body temp and pee and poop and breathe without difficulty. BF'ing is tough work for a little preemie. They burn calories so fast just TRYING to nurse and then they fall asleep right away so you nurse every 20 minutes or so. I swear, my butt didn't leave that rocker for 3 months once she came home! We were constantly nursing. I would definitely make the trek to the LC even though it's a ton of work. It could very well save your bf'ing relationship with your son. It took us 2 LC's, constant clogged ducts, lots of pumping, and a good 2 months before she was nursing effectively and I was comfortable with everything. She went from a birthweight of 5lbs 3oz to 9lbs 6oz at two months old! :throb Little porker! You definitely need to see that LC, no matter what. Otherwise, I really see you getting frustrated and giving up. One baby is a lot of work, nevermind two. And bf'iing difficulties on top of that will just overwhelm you. Nip this thing in the bud before it gets too bad.
Congrats mama!!!!
Meg

[wombat]

How early were you babies? How old are they now?

My ds was 36w5d and was in the NICU a week getting bottles. Day 2 and 3 he got some formula because my milk wasn't in. I didn't like this but agreed with this to prevent his jaundice worsening. But after that I pumped and he got EBM. He was so tired, sleepy and jaundiced that I ended up agreeing the bottles weren't such a bad idea. I had a periodontal syringe in my pocket and when the nurses weren't around, I tried finger feeding him with that (did this with my first baby so I knew how). But it took him too long, he wasn't getting enough before he'd fall asleep (wasn't having enough wet diapers) so I just went back to the bottles. He was kinda latching ok but it was shallow and weak. I figured the bottles were better than him having to get IV fluids again.

At discharge, the Dr told me I didn't need to supplement. But he wasn't nursing long enough or frequently enough to stop the supplements I thought. I rented a weight scale too so I didn't have to take him out to get weighed. He was losing weight (after he'd been gaining) when I stopped supplementing so I continued with a Playtex Natural Shape bottle for a few days thinking it wouldn't take long to get him nursing. But after a few days of that, I was concerned he wasn't nursing well because of the bottles, as well as still being easily tired, he seemed to be becoming 'lazy' at nursing. So I stopped them and got an SNS. PITA the first 2 days but I kept at it. I cheated and taped the damn tube right onto my aerola. I figured a little tape in his mouth was worth my sanity at this point. And after 2-3 days of SNS (and no bottles), he started opening wider and latching a LITTLE better. I kept it up until I noticed he was taking less from the SNS and his weight gain started to increase and then I gradually reduced the SNS feeds. Now at 3 1/2 weeks, he's exclusively nursing and gaining weight. He's been off the SNS now for 3 days.

Thankfully, unlike my first dd, my ds didn't seem to get nipple confusion too badly. It really does depend a bit on the baby.

If you really can't get to the LC, I'd encourage you to keep trying with the SNS as he is latching a bit. Did the LC assess him for tongue tie or high palate? Both these conditions cause latching problems and nipple pain. Is he just smaller than his twin sister, has a smaller mouth? doesn't open as wide?

And after latching him on, just pull that bottom lip down/out. The bottles encourage bad habits too which is why I'd encourage you to keep trying the SNS.

[Jane's4]

Congratulations on your babies! My twins were 36 weekers, and took a while to catch on to nursing. In those first several days, I felt like I was drowning in (often-conflicting) advice from drs., nurses, LCs, and so on. I found myself overwhelmed trying to bf, then supplement with formula, then pump, trying to remember which twin had eaten when, for how long, how much, etc. :nut
Then, I reminded myself that odds were, we were going to figure this out, and everything was going to be ok. So I did what came naturally, offering the breast often, for short periods (much easier on a preemie than long feeds). I flipped that lower lip a thousand times. I threw the formula away and stopped pumping, relying on the increased bf sessions to boost my supply. Those sore nipples got a little less sore, and eventually, we were nursing like pros. But it did take a little while to get there. ITA with PPs advice to go ahead and use the SNS and nipple shields. Go see your LC and get the support you need...it will be worth the trip. Most importantly, be confident that your little boy will grow into the bf relationship soon enough.
People are always amazed when they learn you nurse/nursed twins, and I think a big part of that is that in the beginning, nursing can seem like such a cerebral event, requiring just the right technique, and so much planning and monitoring, when usually it ends up being so much easier than that :)

[timneh_mom]

Can you gently pull down on his lower lip once he is latched to pull it out from under? I had to do that with DS at first, and it helped at TON. I am sorry you went through all of this, and I hope you can get to where it doesn't hurt anymore. Have you had someone take a look at his latch?

[octobersweethearts]

Another twin mama here.....

One of my girls got the hang of it right away and the other took awhile. Like your situation, the one who had a harder time was in the NICU and was on bottles of EBM and formula. We had the same thing with having to drink "X" amount of a bottle before they would release her.

I just kept trying at every feeding. I would nurse her and then feed EBM in a bottle if she wasn't nursing well. She finally got the hang of it when I got into a warm bath with her...not sure if that was really the trick, but it was recommended in the Mothering Multiples book, so I tried it.

I'm not much help with the lip issue....just wanted to offer some support from another BTDT twin mama :love

[sapphire_chan]

Question from a clueless one:

Aren't there things other than bottles to feed babies with? Shouldn't NICUs be using those instead of bottles?

[alegna]

Yep. They should. And the best ones do. The others go for easy over what's best for baby.

-Angela

[farmlife]

My guy wasn't early but we did a week in the NICU. They loved every drop of breastmilk but they were quick to supplement with formula. I found breastfeeding to be quite a struggle for many weeks. We are now 10 weeks and doing great! I found there to be a bonding issue also that I am just now addressing in my own heart.

I don't have any words of wisdom on latch...though I did find that the little guy did better once switched to the Avent bottles and seemed less confused when he went from breast to bottle. I know my supply was good from the beginning but he didn't seem to get it....2-3 diapers in a row would be dry when I tried to exclusively bf so I kept supplementing with EBM. I'm not sure when it happened, but one day around 7 weeks or so his efficiency improved and now he is just at the boob and doesn't need the supplemental bottle from me. I still pump and pump and pump though.

Also, I taught a couple of the NICU nurses how to use the SNS - how they never knew about it before is beyond me!
nursing after the nicu can be challenging ---hugs to you momma as you go through this time.

[corysmilk]

i would ditch the bottles asap. He will not learn to nurse while bottle feeding


Stick out your toungue, with your mouth open wide,I know it sounds barzare. but I did it with dd,I would stick my tougue out and she actually did it. then get him on and pull out his bottom lip. My LLL told me to do it and it really works. Is he tougue tied?-the fenulum is short? does his tougue dip in the middle? i also syringe fed my dd, with ebm. ANd while she sucked I would push her toungue down, she wanted to pull it back. it took about a month for her to get the hang of nursing and not hurting me. But It was worth it. Is there a Leleache league near you? they are very helpful. Even over the phone.
Good luck
Elizabeth

[*~Danielle~*]

My guy had a horrible latch and it was a nightmare to get him to feed. We had to express my milk and then use a dropper to drop it on my breast and in his mouth and then if he actually latched we were thrilled. So I know what you mean about not wanting to delatch him and correct his lip. My son also always curled his bottom lip in. I would just take my finger under his lip and my breast and try to gently swipe it out without breaking the latch. It is worth a try everytime to swipe his lip out and not break the latch. It's better to try that then be so unnerved by the pain that you don't want to breastfeed him at all. KWIM?