Spiritual/Metaphysical root cause of PPD?

[Caring Touch]

I work as a healer and strongly feel that all physical symptoms are at the direction of our higher self to teach a soulful lesson. I know that sounds crazy and we like to feel like symptoms 'happen' to us rather than we manifest our physical reality to teach us on a deeper, spiritual level.

I see doctors work on an area relentlessly with various therapies trying to 'fix' the problem and when I sit with somebody and get to the root emotion of why they manifest the symptom for themselves the "problem" vanishes. I guess with awareness comes freedom.

I went through really tough PPD and I am stumpted as to why. I understand my body chemistry went crazy but why did my body manifest that?

I have felt overwhelmed by pregnancy, motherhood, birth, and caring for a child, plus all the life changes that go with it. I don't have any community per say, feel really alone. The energy I felt go through me while I was pregnant with my spirited dd was freaky, ect.

The depressed feeling just had such a strong hold over me for a good year. I can still slip too if I am not careful. I didn't do any medication for it (no judgement for those who do).

Any thoughts on root cause of PPD on a soulful level? What is the lesson?
Thanks.
Caring Touch

[KrisPlusFour]

I don't have any answers for your post yet, but you have definitely given me something to think about. Hugs to you and thanks for the thoughtful bump!

[lauraess]

Soulful level you ask? hmmmm.
For me I've understood it to be that immense Crossing over into the most important and most challenging and far-reaching role ever. I think at our very core, our inner spirit or at the level of the cells , if you will, each one of us knows this is yet another ( like puberty and hormonal pms stuff) life-changing time. Of Course, It really IS the biggest.
Given that, and our familial history (abuses, disfunctions, wounds that reach back to our ancestors and theirs) It makes sense that if there are things we have to work out with ourselves, understandings and acknowledgements, acceptances and greivances than through our pains and challenges with ppd we are given the opportunity to move through them and become wiser.
To me that is soul-ful. I dont know if your understanding of soul is something different but that is how it is for me where ppd is concerned.

[fourlittlebirds]

I don't know what the lesson is. But I can tell you why I had PPD. Birth is about opening up, spiritually, emotionally, and physically, for very important reaons, but it also makes us especially vulnerable to the energy and actions of others. For whatever reasons, some of us seem to be able to repel the negative energy, for others it's debilitating.

For each of my births after which I suffered PPD, there were invasive and intrusive things that happened during and after the births that, because I was so open, were felt extremely strongly. (No one intended to hurt me, but they couldn't help bringing their issues and distractions and misconceptions about what birthing women need.) For the most part I didn't allow myself to consciously acknowledge this because it was "not reasonable" to feel that way. You can't totally suppress a violence to the spirit, though, it's going to come out in some way. Hence, postpartum depression.

It's one of the main reasons I decided to birth and spend the babymoon with only my husband and children with me.

[mandib50]

I have felt overwhelmed by pregnancy, motherhood, birth, and caring for a child, plus all the life changes that go with it. I don't have any community per say, feel really alone. The energy I felt go through me while I was pregnant with my spirited dd was freaky, ect.

hi caring touch,

did you check in louise hay's book? too bad i don't have it here right now, i would look it up for you. what you have described here, plus if you were not able to share or express or process the feelings that came with all those changes would have definitely been a cause of your depression. have you been on caroline myss' website? depression is a chakra one issue which has to do with issues like physical family and group safety and security, ability to provide for life's necessities, social and familial law, bonding, support etc. i think you would like her site, it gives questions to help you discover your own personal issues and how they might be affecting each chakra/health.

as to the lesson of PPD for you in particular, if you PM i will do a tarot reading for you if you wish to help you figure it out.

good luck on your journey :hug

[Panserbjørne]

It was definitely energetic for me. Luckily I have a wonderful doc who is an MD and a classical homeopath and I dealt with in homeopathically-which is obviously energy medicine. I had a lesson to learn, and am still in the process of it. Partly it was about dealing with childhood issues and partly with where I am now. It was hard to get through because I did have to look at, talk about and reflect on everything. It was worth it though, because I am way more whole now. Good luck on your journey.

[Caring Touch]

Wow ladies....thank you for you all of your thoughtful replies!!! I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts and info.

In reading each response I could identify with each one. Maybe a big factor in PPD is that there doesn't seem to be any outlets to share these feelings and have that be okay.

I am off to think about your repsonses more...thanks again! And I'll make sure to check out all the resources you've listed.

Caring Touch

[fugeeo]

I wrote this a while ago,
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=307299

I also recommend a book by Falun Dafa, which talks about our spirits in general, from kind of a Buddhist, Taoist point of view. To me, it has answered just about all of my questions from all the searching I have done.
www.falundafa.org then go to books online, and find zhuan falun book.
http://www.falundafa.org/eng/books.htm
this is english version, also available in many other languages, it is free online book, and music and videos.


refugio

[FancyD]

Hmmmm...

Well, DS's birth went terribly wrong and he was sick for a while. He has very minor issues to this day, and we need to see an OT/PT. I had no help, and felt abandoned by those who "loved" me. So, I think besides the crossing over (love that!), there was immense scarring on my soul. I will never, ever forget how powerless I felt. I'll never forget, either, how much better I felt to finally be heard. That was the start of my healing. I learned to keep pressing on, even when I feel utterly lost and rejected. I learned what true compassion really is. I un-learned judgement. I crossed the Void and learned of my own powers.

Mostly I just learned to hold on for *one*more*day* and sometimes that's the awesomest thing one can do.

[Aka mommy]

I have a question in regards to PPD being spiritual or soulful. If so, why would i experience ppd this time but not after the birth of my first dd?? DD#1 was a traumatic hossy birth, she was colicky, sick, high needs and had an extremely ROCKY first year, but i never once experienced anything so much as even baby blues. But instead was thriving, happy and blissful, even in the midst of all those trials. DD#2 was a beautiful homebirth who has has no problems compared. So what could that mean in regards to what im needing to learn??

[velveeta]

Oh, this is just my favorite topic. Unfortunately, in real life, it doesn't come up a lot. Well, you know how it is.

Caring Touch, you even say, "I know that sounds crazy and we like to feel like symptoms 'happen' to us rather than we manifest our physical reality to teach us on a deeper, spiritual level."

You know, I believe that you have summed up America's health beliefs in general just beautifully here. And I am not being negative, either. I don't think that we are stupid, maybe just not aware (as you so *interestingly* bring up!) of how these illnesses and setbacks begin.

Yesterday, I was thinking about *how* and *why* the same kinds of problems seem to crop up for certain people. My mother, for example, is always having car troubles. She has three different cars, high-quality and expensive cars. They are always having some mechanical problem that needs to be fixed. Well, I think that she literally feels that she is not in control of her own life, and the energy that surrounds her resonates with that feeling so strongly, that it affects her car performance. She is taking care of my aging father, and he can be very demanding, and she feels that she has no choices about her life at this point.

I also think that other people's energy/resonating frequency can affect yours, especially with regard to health, and ESPECIALLY if you are a very open and sensitive person. My sister is like this, and she suffered with terrible depression for a year. It was like she had no filter on her to protect her from outside negativity, and more depressed she became, the worse it got. She recovered by moving in with me for a year and spending a lot of time with my dog, who shares that same trait of taking in others' suffering (although, I believe in my dog's case, that is one of her life's purposes, so she has a way to get rid of it).

Our struggles are definitely not about blame or "you have cancer, AIDS, whatever because of your bad attitude." No NO NO!! Sometimes, the important lessons are for someone else's soul, and our bodies have graciously (and sometimes unconsciously) agreed to be the vessels for someone else's life change. This notion came to mind a few days ago when I watching TV, and they were discussing a guy who had virulent liver cancer, and who had to be hospitalized for his treatment. Well, the summary is that he had such a beautiful and optimistic response that he gave HOPE to many other patients. After affecting these patients so strongly, HIS cancer disappeared, a puzzle to all the doctors!

I would like to write more on my favorite topic, but I have a request to draw a frog for my 2 year old.

Take care ladies!!
Jean

[fugeeo]

I would like to talk about some concepts that may sound very foreign. But I find them to be very real. They are teachings from the Zhuan Falun book I mentioned. They are insight into the energies of our lives. I find them very real, because at one point in my spiritual seekings, I have seen them fairly clearly.

For one, Karma is something most people have heard about. Karma is the cause and effect in our lives. If it is negative karma, then there is an actual substance that is "black" which accumulates in our bodies. If it is positive karma, then it is a "white" substance. The black karma leads to diseases, while the white karma leads to health, and supernormal powers. These have nothing to do with our skin color, but it can become visible when one's energy is increased.

Sometimes, when we are making great strides, negative influences in our environments try to attack us, to challenge us, to make sure we are up to the challenge. In effect, as humans, we have accumulated a lot of negative karma, and thus we are humans and not immortals. So we have to be tested to see that we can face anything with truthfulness, compassion and forbearance.

Also, sometimes, we have done things in our past lives, to other people, and/or other beings that we have to feel the effects for. The negative karma in its accumulation, begins to cause illness. And depending on our moods, our responses, our lack of emotional control, it can react in a worse manner.

We can also take on negative karma by helping people that need to face their own karma. Say we know someone close, who we know does wrong things, yet we still try to pamper them or take care of them, then we also take on their negative karma.

And in our stores of positive karma, sometimes if we yell at someone, or curse them, we also give them our positive karma, and lose our strength of the positive karma. Without positive karma, we are also more vulnerable to negative influences.

Usually some form of change in diet or medicine can help, but also, these things tend to just prolong the time when we will need to face the pains we have caused.

And I agree with the woman in the previous post, that sometimes, when someone has such great energy, they are challenged, and others may see how they cooperate, and have great tolerance and compassion, which will show them how to change. These people are on the road to defeating many negative energies in our surroundings. Kind of like Lazarus, I believe Jesus took on the illness of Lazarus, probably became ill himself, then overcame it, and others then were able to know the power that is probable in our world. Sai Baba of India is another guru who has done this. He is currently living.

In my experience, I also find that such depression is a balancing for things in our lives, meaning we really need to find our way back to true human nature, of truthfulness, compassion and tolerance/forbearance, and move away from so many distractions. Probably in your first birth, you payed for your karma by the troublesome birth, whilst in the second, you are paying for karma by the depression.

negative karma can be overcome, through recognizing it directly.
listening to it, observing it, then trying to understand who you are surrounding that pain. probably some greater compassion in your life, or facing your fears with tolerance, or seeking and applying truths will help tremendously, but always one step at a time.

hope this helps.
refugio manuel

[oyemicanto]

For one, Karma is something most people have heard about. Karma is the cause and effect in our lives. If it is negative karma, then there is an actual substance that is "black" which accumulates in our bodies. If it is positive karma, then it is a "white" substance. The black karma leads to diseases, while the white karma leads to health, and supernormal powers. These have nothing to do with our skin color, but it can become visible when one's energy is increased.

...

negative karma can be overcome, through recognizing it directly.
listening to it, observing it, then trying to understand who you are surrounding that pain. probably some greater compassion in your life, or facing your fears with tolerance, or seeking and applying truths will help tremendously, but always one step at a time.

hope this helps.
refugio manuel

I am very interested (intrigued) by what you have written here. I have always suffered from depression to some degree and have really been mired in a deep depression since the birth of my son two years ago. I am currently taking medication for it, but truthfully it doesn't really help. I know I have a lot I have to face, but I truly don't know where to start. I feel like I need to address the spiritual (Karmic?) aspect of my depression, but again, I don't know where to start...

I am glad to see there are others who understand what I am going through :)

[Wolfcat]

I feel that birth is the most beautiful, giving and traumatic thing we can do as a soul. By the creation of another being we are facilitating a great deal of spiritual energy. In a way, we are connected to the spirit world during pregnancy and, especially, birth. The lack of control that we have over this connection, plus the inevitable cut-off, plus the fact that the spiritual connection was never about you. The end is like being a part of a close friend's wedding day, or something similar. You get caught up in all this excitement and work and happiness, and then it isn't really yours to keep. In a way, people forget the mother in the joys of a new baby. People need to remember that the mother needs emotional support to deal with the whole new-baby situation, as well. Essentially, a baby cannot really give the emotional and spiritual thanks that adults can. Babies can't spare the energy as much.

Well, that was a bit of a blather, but I hope it came out clear enough.

[Megan_Cherry]

I feel that birth is the most beautiful, giving and traumatic thing we can do as a soul. By the creation of another being we are facilitating a great deal of spiritual energy. . . . . . . You get caught up in all this excitement and work and happiness, and then it isn't really yours to keep.

Well put.

I've been thinking about this lately. PPD that is. I feel like I am caught up in a mild (?) form of it related to my recent miscarriage.

[intentfulady]

SUBBING.

Ill be back

[intentfulady]

One aspect of my PPD experience was "the Removing of Masks" archetypically speaking.

Somebody "stole my spirit", I had a spirit healer say.

One very common factor in PPD is "Lack of Support"

[lauraess]

Fugeeo> while i belive in karma and understand it as best i can, I think for you to say that perhaps someone is Paying for karma through their difficult birth is really off. I dont think this is true in any sort of way. It almost sounds like some Christian stuff dripping of sins and penance and hell.

Sorry, but this really strike a chord in me. Hopefully , that's not what you meant.

[fugeeo]

"Fugeeo> while i belive in karma and understand it as best i can, I think for you to say that perhaps someone is Paying for karma through their difficult birth is really off. I dont think this is true in any sort of way. It almost sounds like some Christian stuff dripping of sins and penance and hell."


i cannot explain these things as well as the zhuan falun, regarding karma, but the previous message regards only one reason for suffering i discuss.

i think all of us have our karma return to us in many ways. for one, men, usually do not live as long as women. that is one way that karma has an effect. but it is not to say that a man can't live longer than a woman.

i am not trying to create an offense to someone, but karma as a human is much deeper than we might expect by any teaching that is commonly known. think of it in relation to science. how many things do people do because science tells them it is the right thing, and then come to find out later, science tells us it is the wrong thing, like hormone therapy for women. in fact, listening to science all along, creates a void in our intuitive abilities. there are many many many things that destroy our intuitive abilities.

and sometimes a depression like this, is just reminding us of our intuition. it is trying to bring us back to our selves. we feel depressed, because it is a long journey from our senses of reality. and i agree with wolfcat, also, that when we touch the godliness of a child birthing, then there is so much splendor, while returning to the real world, we have to face many issues, and we have to face the issues that the baby will face too.

we are prepared from two directions. both are a result of karma. a baby may come to us with his karma as well, so we have to become in sync with his/her new life.

in both ways, the lesson is to become observant, to slow down, to listen deeply to what is going on. i discussed the aspect of ourselves that we can deal with in ourselves, i later thought about the other side too.

:heartbeat

[intentfulady]

I was so hot yesterday about the "KARMA" thing. I could not respond beyond what I did.

I woujld like to discuss and explore it further however I am stuck here.


It smelled like shaming and blaming a depression victim. Which is certainly one of the lAST thing a depressed person needs. They are usually feeling too much shame already.

I AM WONDERING IS THIS A MAN WHO WROTE THIS COMMENT? OR A WOMAN WHO HAS GIVEN BIRTH?

IT ALSO SMELLED LIKE A CHRISTIAN TWIST TO KARMA .

I believe we all live in KArma all the time, like the pp pointed out..like science is karma.

If indeed a large part of PPD is lack of support, something forcing us to go deeper and deeper inside , looking for and hopefully finding resources, then the blaming idea of karma only adds pain, guilt and shame to an already suffering being.

Only if this person is already buddhist, could they process this in a useful way!

[intentfulady]

PPD was a fascinating growth experience for myself.
Some semantics here.

The souls path? as spiritual?

Being messed with by "evil" spirits? as spiritual?

I guess I am curious what OP meant by "spiritual"

PPD felt like a spiritual experience.. altered state.

altered perceptions.

the veil between worlds .......thicker or thinner? in your experience????

The feeling for me was
"thicker" veil.

I was very high functioning, probably manic.

such a fascinating question.

I'll be back after I've chewed on it some more.

[fugeeo]

i am in no way trying to put shame to someone,
just trying to give insight.

i myself suffered from depression for many years.
and by realizing some truths, was i able to overcome
and i am now medicine free.

i am sorry if i have brought this in, when it may cause
distress, but sometimes, the best way, is to go directly
to the source of the problems.

this is a thread on spiritual/metaphysical root cause...

does it really matter what sex i am, if i believe in reincarnation?
i am only trying to help. and i have been there from the babies
perspective. i was born by cesarean in a premature birth.

sincerely,
refugio

[Aka mommy]

I was really digging this thread. But i really take offense to posters implying that christians believe or feel depression is a direct result of sinning. Maybe i read this wrong?

[fugeeo]

well, if one cannot find the source in the spiritual, sometimes that is too far away. then one should do that which they can do immediately.

looking at the foods we eat, remembering food also has a spirit.

lack of support, of course is going to be a major issue.

finding out how to find support can be difficult when going through depression. sometimes in depression, someone will see from their perspective that a person is ill, but the ill person will not see it themselves. at the same time, the ill person may be going through a search, and not necessarily be ill, but will be perceived to be ill by others.

this last part for me, was the most difficult for me when i was "ill", that others could not understand what i was talking about. the only way for me to overcome was to keep searching inside myself. i suffered from mental illness for almost 8 years. some of it was decent while medicated, but the problem was still prevalent.

the biggest part was that there was some spirit looming over me, some karma, something, a sick influence, and i could see it, but i was still involved with many things that created it. finally i simplified things learning buddhism, and spirituality from as many religions that i could seek in my neighborhood, and later this zhuan falun, a combination of buddhist taoist knowledge, and it gave me the understanding i was looking for.

we can not always look to others for the answers, but we need to accept whatever is there, let it register, acknowledge it, and somehow figure out what it really means.

hope you feel better intenful, it does feel like you are going through ups and downs. hang in there.

:innocent

[Megan_Cherry]

Smelly Christian here. . .

What Fugeeo is saying does not sound like blaming or shaming to me. I don't understand how karma works but I found alot of what she is saying to be encouraging. How can I fill my life with more of this white substance? Or as I would see it a white light. Hmmmmmm. . . tell me more about this. You said diet and medication can help? Tell me about diet. I have been feeling so drained and my doc told me I was anemic. So I have been eating spinach every day and taking my vits. Seems to be helping some.

[fugeeo]

for enhancing positive energy, i recommend reading the free online books. they will explain the best. www.falundafa.org.

then, i would recommend just increasing the truths in life, not creating many barriers between others beliefs, decreasing any angers, increase compassion, yet, don't give to those who don't make efforts, use compassion in knowledge, use tolerance to a high degree, don't let things bother and create anger, let things go by, increase inner quiet, become observant rather than reactionary.

these are easy to say, but not always easy to do. do them as you can. these are the things that create positive energy. in our lives, these days, there will be much required tolerance.

if the book idea is not kind to you,
investigate deeply spirit. increase the imagination through mental journeys, meeting people in mind, with eyes closed, meeting positive spirits, speak to others through spiritual/mental visualizations. inculcate virtues, for instance think about the meanings of virtues: ie strength, flexibility, compassion, silence, tolerance ... there are many. think about each one individually with eyes closed. play soothing music.

for diet guidelines:

some people have too much attraction to eating meats, this should be lessened. but most important, is to realize the life in the food before we eat it, take a moment to bless the food and feel its spirit return to you, then strengthen you when you eat it. have the feeling that it is indeed giving nourishment.

some say dark unsweetened chocolate will help alot as it contains things that balance serotonin levels, an imbalance of which leads to depression. i've read some on these ppd posts. i am not recalling where they are.

http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/terrain/lost_history_of_medicine.htm

this first link somewhat details how modern mainstream medicine has gone "astray". and somewhat explains about the next diets i include.

Gracie_Diet, perhaps based on chinese medical theories, but developed in Brazil by a Jiu Jitsu expert. I am not recommending the jiu jitsu, but the guidelines work very well. it's just hard to eat only fruits sometimes.

http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/bjj/gjjdiet.html

so, i sometimes mix my diets. but by these guidelines, i have felt quite a bit better.

the next three here are similar to the gracie diet but a little different, they are one and the same, i just included the three referenced links:

http://www.internethealthlibrary.com/DietandLifestyle/Food_combining.htm
http://www.internethealthlibrary.com/DietandLifestyle/food-combining-general-chart-a.htm
http://www.internethealthlibrary.com/DietandLifestyle/food-combining-simplified-chart-c.htm

and these following ones are based on pH balance:

http://www.thewolfeclinic.com/acidalkfoods.html
http://www.thewolfeclinic.com/phbalancearticle.html
http://www.reynoldsoffice.com/ph.htm
http://altmedicine.about.com/od/popularhealthdiets/a/alkalinediet.htm

hope this helps.

[fugeeo]

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=347334

[lauraess]

. Probably in your first birth, you payed for your karma by the troublesome birth, whilst in the second, you are paying for karma by the depression.



hope this helps.
refugio manuel

I am sorry if i offended anyone in my comment about 'chirstian..penance and hell.'

I see you say there is not blame, and I did not take it that way as far as the birthing goes. I simply cannot understand How womens labor, difficult or majorly difficult is about karma. Maybe you can explain or someone can?

[lauraess]

I was really digging this thread. But i really take offense to posters implying that christians believe or feel depression is a direct result of sinning. Maybe i read this wrong?

What quote are you referring to? If it was mine, the one saying the bit about karma and difficult birth and dripping of christian sins, penance and hell- I wasnt implying that Christians believe that about depression and sinning. No way. I meant that saying difficult labor was about ANYThING other that what it was (long, babies position, stress, etc.) feels/sounds like blame of a sort . I actually heard once from a christian friend that women go through labor that is difficult and painful because of the sins of man. I know some people beleive this , so how is that different than the karma theory?

[lauraess]

Megan Cherry> If you are drained and your dr. is telling you that you're anemic, eat nuts instead of meat if you dont want to do the meat. And again, I have to challenge Fugeeo on the meat comment(especially if your are nursing!) You totally need your proteins now and your irons can come from blackstrap molasses in Oats, plus eggs and fish. Get the book "nourishing Traditions" :thumb

[fugeeo]

halo lauraess

i am trying to think a little more about your questions.

for one, like i say, positive and negative karma is in everyone's human lives.
for the Zhuan Falun book, Li Hongzhi discusses it quite clearly. again i highly recommend to read it, especially the first chapter which is not long, and discusses karma. http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/zflus.html. also read about the celestial eye. the second chapter.

for myself, i have taken a long route to get to the spiritual space that i am in now. a question i haven't really been able to have answers to, is why the difference between men and women. part of it i feel is the type of nurturing role that is required in a situation. a child will be a girl, if there is more nurturing required, while a child will be a boy, if there is more action required, but these are not set in stone. part of it may be a past life direction.

i have also been thinking about our goals towards reincarnation. truly, i feel that if we do not resolve all of our negative karma in this life, we will be reincarnated. negative karma will keep us in the human world. even christians, who many feel christ will save, for those who have not resolved their negative karma, perhaps only christ can help them enter his kingdom. but there are many kingdoms, and many gurus, many so called "gods". but their was only one true creator in my mind. and beyond that, who knows.
but i think, depending on our desires in life, and our right actions, we will attain what we want, and what we deserve. depending on how much we contribute to the world in compassion, truthfulness, and tolerance. any other forms of contribution to the world, generally returns in a negative manner, such as through a painful birth. anything that is just complacent, will be easily dislodged.

buddhism holds four tenets, that there is impermanence (everywhere within the human world), that there is cause and effect, and that there is no soul, and no self. mainly, the lack of understanding of these universal truths, will lead to suffering and pain. while moving together with the truths will build a foundation.

A buddhist's writing may help:
http://www.watchai.iirt.net/buddhism3.html
and a western perspective:
http://www.frimmin.com/mt/archives/000113.html

for the meat thing, i am discussing in broader terms about general diet. which is the kind of diet that is preventative for any health problems in life. if one has lived with the right kind of diet for their whole life, versus one who only goes on a right diet when they have to, then the one with the right kind of diet their whole life, will obviously have much better preparation for any problems, but one who only diets at that specific time, is going to feel the effects of their body adjusting, for one, and suffering from the accumulation of bad diet in their system, for two.

these are just a few points, i find meditation to be a true source to find out who the self is, stilling everything, becoming observant, non-reactionary, to see the direct path. for me, in christianity, there are good teachings, but when one doesn't take the time to take these tenets into themselves directly, then they are of no use. i have found that through meditation i've gone on the solo journey that one needs to develop for themselves to find what truths and falsehoods are inherent in me. while i have found christians, while some to be very good and seekers of truths not just of their own, not just of the bible, many never really to get the real sense of what certain things mean inside themselves. for meditation, is like filling an empty bowl, while reading bibles, gitas, even zhuan falun, will never have the same effect as really feeling deep inside ones self, to unfold the flower. in effect many religions have a ritual performed, and the bible or koran or torah or gita ... is read, but to fill the empty bowl then, takes much much longer. the meditation inner journeys are individual journeys. in essence, ritual can replace instinct, and intuition, which i find to be a very premise for even very good people to really forget their own actions towards a truthful way.