WWYD, someone elses child vs. my dd?

[KayleeZoo]

Okay, some background. There is a little girl in my dd's kindergarten class, Sydney. She constantly becomes physical with the other kids- kicking, pushing, spitting, etc. The teachers know this and are on top of her as much as possible (2 teachers, 19 kids). Dh and I have discussed this with the teachers- for some reason, Sydney has particularly signaled out our dd and is incessantly coming after Kaylee. The teachers think that she's intimidated by our dd- who is friends with everyone in the class, very self-confident, etc. They also told us that Sydney has no concept of personal space boundaries- but that they are trying to work on it with her, and that this child has had many bad years in day care before coming to kindergarten. I found out that she is accustomed to being left from 6am till 6pm in daycare prior to this year, and is at the babysitter every day after school now. Anyway, she has gotten increasingly violent lately- she punched my dd in the back last week for sitting on a spot on the carpet where Sydney wanted to sit. Part of me is really angry- I cannot tolerate anyone hurting my kid. OTOH, I know that the teachers are trying really hard to deal with this. My dh (who eats lunch with dd and the class every Monday) said that he overheard Sydney (who, strangely enough, wants to eat w/our dd every day) say that her dad hits her with a belt at home :( My dh is really angry about her behavior towards our dd and the other kids, and wants to file a formal complaint with the school. I understand his anger- my baby is the one who has gotten hurt, and believe me, I'm beyond pissed about that. BUT I'm worried about this child being punished at home for what's going on at school. :( I think her parents need to know what's going on, and the seriousness of it, but I don't want this child getting beaten over it, (or anything else). Any ideas of how we could approach the parents? Should we do that? What is a non-confrontational tactic that we could use? My dh is not usually volatile, but he's really mad about this and I can see him going to the principal any day now and I"d like to serve everyone's best interests here, including my own child, without causing any damage, either. WWYD?

[~member~]

The teacher should have contacted the oethr parents by now.

[BumbleBena]

Oh wow... What a tough situation! :hug

Is there any way you could talk to a guidance counselor about your concerns? Maybe have them look into Sydney's home situation? It sounds to me like she's jealous of your dd, and if she is getting beaten at home, maybe that needs to be addressed by a social worker.

I personally would hold off on the formal complaint until I had the chance to talk to a counselor, or maybe look into peer mediation (I don't know if they offer that for kindergarteners) for the two girls. Maybe have the two of them sit down with the counselor and talk it out a little.

I'm so sorry you have to deal with this! Let us know what you decide to do. :hug

[missgabs]

I think that you and your DH need to report the possible abuse that Sydney mentioned at lunch. I believe that teachers are required to report suspicions of abuse (not sure, but I have heard that before) and I think going to a counselor, teacher and/or principal is the right thing to do. Of course you should also let them know your concerns, both for your daughter and this little girl. But, if the issue involves being beaten by her father, it may be too big for you to deal with alone, KWIM?

[TechnoGranola]

My DD went through something similar. At first I felt very sorry for the other little girl (who's mom apparently yells/swears at her all the time, drags her by her hair, confines her to her room, etc.) and wanted to help thinking that if things were better for her, it would stop the abuse on my daughter. I talked to the teachers about it and we came up with ways that we could try and limit the abuse on my daughter without making the other little girl feel punished. the teachers spoke to the parents about her and the mom called me and told me how bad she felt that her daughter was being mean to mine and that she wanted to do everything she could to make it stop. Unforunately she didn't follow through and even went so far, in a later conversation, to tell me that this was "between the girls" and they had to work it out themselves (they were 6 and my DD was the only one getting hurt!!). Then DD came home one day with her teeth pushed through her lip because the other little girl had "accidentally" tripped her while playing outside on the skating rink at recess. That was the last straw for me. After that, I told the teachers that this little girl was not allowed to be partners with DD, eat lunch beside her, sit beside her, etc. AND that they were not to make DD feel isolated or left out because of this. I just didn't really care about the other little girl anymore. I wasted too much time already trying to take care of both of them rather than spending my time making sure MY child was okay.

Thus, my opinion is, take care of your DD, do what is best for HER. She is the victim here. Let the teachers and the parents take care of the other girl. Although I advocate for you to focus on your DD, I would get your DH to mention the abuse he overheard to the teacher.

[TinkerBelle]

I would be very careful before reporting. You do not know if there is real abuse or not. Before anyone jumps on me, hear me out. 2 years ago, my oldest went to school and told his aunt that I hit his leg. What happened was that I accidently hit him with the broom. I was sweeping and tripped and he was walking toward me about the same time. He ended up with a mark on his leg. Thankfully, my SIL called my DH who told her what happened. If the wrong person had heard him, they would have thought I beat DS with a broom.

Also, believe it or not, children do lie sometimes. I would first take it to the teacher and let them decide.

All I am saying is to be careful. Everything is not always as it seems.

[mommyto3girls]

If a teacher suspects abuse of a child they are required to report it to Children's Services. It is no longer enough to report it to the principal and let them handle it, nor is it acceptable for the teacher to "ride it out" and take a wait and see appoach. If a teacher fails to report and the child is injured the teacher can and will be prosecuted for child endangerment.

I just threw away a form we got last week detailing this information.

I know that is not what the OP is looking for, but if your dh tells the teacher about the belt comment the teacher is required to report it to CSB

[nurnur4evr]

Personally, I'm not sure that I would send my daughter to school if I thought she were going to be punched and the teachers wouldn't stop it!

I say hurray to your DH. I hope he goes to the principal on your daughter's behalf.

Speaking from experience, I was the beat-up kid in grade school, and my mother did NOT intervene for me to stop the violence. I had to protect myself as best as I could from two bullies who teamed up against me. Mom thought everyone should "get along". She did not confront anyone about it but let it run its course. It was one of the very few things she did wrong.

It would have been much better for my self-worth and self-esteem if I had seen her stand up for me, whether by "confronting" the parents or filing a complaint against the school or by taking me out of school and homeschooling me. Whatever, as long as I was no longer beaten up.

It doesn't really matter (to me) why the other girl hurts your child nor should it ultimately matter to you why she does. Parents are supposed to protect their children. Otherwise, you may see a change in your (now) friendly and self-confident daughter.

[TechnoGranola]

Personally, I'm not sure that I would send my daughter to school if I thought she were going to be punched and the teachers wouldn't stop it!Great point. And I should add to my story that the teachers never resolved the issue for my DD (in fact she started getting the blame. If she'd just "speak up" this wouldn't happen to her). I ended pulling her out of school close to the end of the school year. They thought I was crazy to pull her out during the year and even crazier to do it so close to the end of the year. It was the best thing I did for my daugher and should have done it months sooner. They lost my monthly tuition and no longer have me raving about the school like I used to it (in fact now the opposite).

[momof4peppers]

I'm going through a very similar situation, although on the other side. So know that I'm a little biased, and my response may be long!

(I should also note that our son's behavior is NOT something he's learned at home, we do NOT use a whip/belt/etc. and spanking is done (unfortunately) VERY VERY little.)

I agree with the other posters that you should focus on YOUR daughter. Give HER the skills she needs to avoid Sydney, or understand what sets Sydney off and how Kaylee can be her own advocate. Do not "report" what some other child said Sydney says - it's just not reliable information. Think of how you would feel if Sydney told her mother that a 'strange man' eats lunch every Monday with Kaylee, and it made Sydney uncomfortable. And if Syndey's parents then filed a complaint with the school and demanded that they 'do something' about this man who had presumably not been through a criminal background check and was given regular access to children, where would you be?

In our case, our son was baited by another child. One that was/is verbally abusive (IMHO). Our child reacts by hitting/blowing raspberries or kicking. The child that is verbally abusive? No consequences. While I know it's hard to hear that there's ANY possibility that your child is at fault, keep in mind that she may not be a "victim" as much as she appears to be.

These children in kindergarten are very young. And they are ALL learning how to work together, including controlling their impulses - both verbal AND physical. Please try to put aside your anger and work with your daughter and her teachers to develop her own skills, and let Sydney's parents do the same.

[Rigama]

Where did she say that the little girl was being abused? Sorry, I read the post through 2 times and I just didn't see it. I saw that the dad overheard Sydney saying her dad hit her with a belt at home. I'm not condoning spanking, so please don't think I am. In fact, I'm as anti-spanking as one can be. But I do see that it's not against the law and that in "mainstream" society, spanking IS NOT looked upon as abuse.

My thought is that this is an angry little girl who gets spanked for acting out, and that she acts out because she craves parental attention. It's been my experience that if abuse is taking place (by abuse I mean what the general population deems abuse) the child is not so likely to just glibly mention it.

I agree 100% with pps in that this girl needs to stop hurting your daughter, but I don't think that filing abuse reports is the way to go here. Could you ask to have the other child transfered to another class?

[JoyofBirth]

My nephew recently had some problems in his class with another boy. He's in second grade. This other boy was threatening him and being verbally abusive and my nephew was stiking out at him. I also think that the teacher didn't mesh well with him, so he was always in trouble. He was transferred to a different teacher's class and is doing much better. I agree with the pp who said that maybe you could get the other girl transferred to a different class. Maybe she would respond better to a different teacher. If they will not transfer her, request that your daughter be transferred. That would be much better in the long run for her. I was bullied as a child and my mom wanted me to fight back. I didn't want to and it did some damage. I would say that your dh should tell somebody about the belt thing. It may be a spanking it may be more serious. It's not your job to figure out what her home situation is like, but it somebody's.

[SneakyPie]

What a lovely mother you are, to know that it could just as easily be you (or me!) whose child is displaying the difficult behavior!

The folk singer David Roth sings a really good song about this very situation. In the case of his friends, the mother of the boy getting hit decided, with her son's permission, to have the "offending" family over for dinner and a play date. Away from the stresses of school (6-year-olds), the boys played together and eventually became friends; the "hitter's" mother was pretty sorry about the situation of course. I don't know if this is a possibility for you but it was an option I had never considered.

I agree that although Sydney may be making an accurate report of her treatment at home, it's hard to tell and I honestly would not take that on, myself. When I was her age I went through a little spell of telling my teachers that my parents hit me with a 2-by-4, that I regularly crept out of the house at night and shivered in the cold, that I was forced to make my own school lunch on time or I would go without. None of these things was REMOTELY the case in our AP, no-hit house! I had heard a football player use the "hit with a 2-by-4" phrase in an interview after a game. I was reading fairy tales, which often involve an orphaned or banished young girl, often in the middle of cold winter. And I had overheard a friend of my mother's, a het-up new young feminist, saying that stuff about lunch *about her husband.* Damn that imaginative play -- I got Social Services called on my parents, even back in the '60s, because I could read, football players talk on the radio, and they had friends!

Geez -- maybe I'll never teach my kid to talk and I'll give him nothing but closed-end toys from now on. :p I am sorry about your daughter, though.

[Dragonfly]

Where did she say that the little girl was being abused? Sorry, I read the post through 2 times and I just didn't see it. I saw that the dad overheard Sydney saying her dad hit her with a belt at home. I'm not condoning spanking, so please don't think I am. In fact, I'm as anti-spanking as one can be. But I do see that it's not against the law and that in "mainstream" society, spanking IS NOT looked upon as abuse.

It's actually against the law in many places to hit a child with anything other than a hand.

Please ask your dh to tell the teacher what he overheard or to directly report it to someone else who is a mandatory reporter. It's not his or your or the teacher's job to figure out whether it's true or she just has a wild imagination. If there's no actual abuse, then nothing will come of it. If there is, maybe she'll get the help she needs. Maybe someone can help her parents learn how to help her to not be so angry.

I hope everything works out well and that your daughter doesn't have to suffer in her classroom anymore. :(

[angelpie545]

I personally think that you should go ahead with the formal complaint. Obviously, even though the teachers probably are trying their hardest, it's not enough, and this little girl isn't getting the help she needs, and your daughter is suffering.

Your child shouldn't have to go to school fearing that today she might be hit, or hurt physically in any other fashion. One day she might be really hurt. Hitting should not be tolerated in any way, and their should only be a couple of "strikes" if you will, before you are out. I understand that these are very young children and they lack a lot of self control, but hitting one another is something that they can and should restrain themsevles from, and if the teachers are not able to have the students refrain from such behavior, then the offending student should be removed until he/she can control themselves.

I know, this view doesn't seem fair, but honestly, after it's come to a certain point, and you have tried all other measures and it's not working, then their has to be some kind of intervention. Sometimes kids won't respond if they know the consequence is going to be light. Obviously there is more to this situation than meets the eye, and though it should be handled delicately, it should be addressed.

The teacher needs to have a conference with the other parent, and discuss measures that need to be taken for Sydney's safely and your daughters. I am a VERY firm believer that NO child should EVER fear going to school, and although I do belive also that you need to arm your child with self defense measures, if the siuation is out of the adults' control, then it will only get worse.

[Suzetta]

Any ideas of how we could approach the parents? Should we do that?

I would not, under any circumstances approach the parent, unless it is a meeting arranged and attended by the school authorities.

Furthermore, I think it is important to look at the situation in a way that would try to get one question answered. "Why is this child zeroing in on my child??" There must be a reason. Jealousy, maybe something else happened. Maybe your dd has said or done something that triggered this. Whatever the case, it needs to be talked out. I am not saying that your daughter is "asking for" this treatment, nor does she deserve it. I am simply saying that there is a reason for this behavior, and until the aggressor is able to come to terms with "why" she feels this way, the behavior will continue. It sounds to me as if she is terribly jealous of your dd, and is seeking attention. It sounds like your dd is very nurtured and gets lots of parental attention--but the other child is left in the care of others constantly. While you may feel sorry for her, nothing can excuse her hitting your child.

Also, in your shoes, I would teach my child to stand up for herself, and physically defend herself. While I am a very non-violent person, I have learned that in this society, if you don't stick up for yourself, the wolves will get you.

[KayleeZoo]

Thank you all so much for the thoughtful replies. We're still discussing how to approach this, but our tactics w/dd have changed a bit. Instead of trying to be patient with this other child and try to be a good example, she is to stay away from her and to go get one of the teachers if Sydney comes near her. That has been working well so far. Oh, and just to clear it up, we made sure that our dd isn't instigating anything- and the teachers have validated that more than once- I'm not saying that any child deserves to be attacked, but if our child was baiting another, that would not be tolerated, either. I'll be sure to update when dh and I figure out what to do, re: who to approach and how. Thanks again!! :)