What if a sahm gets divorced?! [Archive] - MotheringDotCommunity Forums

Sweetiemommy

12-07-2005, 08:01 PM

This may sound morbid to some of you, but I thought others might find it interesting. I shelved a pretty promising academic career to sah with my baby. My husband works long hours and is moving up the corporate ladder pretty quickly, so he's been trying to convince me that since he works so hard, I don't ever have to worry about working outside the home. I have always figured that I would work after the kids are older, but obviously it won't be at the same level or intensity as it would have been if we didn't have kids. He thinks I should just do something that I think is fun or volunteer work or whatnot. He says a lot of people dream of having this kind of opportunity.

My issue is that, although things seem peachy now, what happens if someday we decide that the marriage isn't working out. As a sahm, I could very well be in a terrible financial situation. Even with child support, I certainly would not be able to live anywhere close to the same level that our family would be used to living. (Read "The Price of Motherhood" by Ann Crittenden for a scary picture of what happens to mothers economically in this culture).

So I decided that I want to draft a document and have it notarized, somewhat resembling a prenuptual agreement, to specify that we have agreed that my staying at home with the children is valuable in explicit monetary terms. Therefore, I will be compensated accordingly in the event of a divorce. Basically I wrote it so that I would get exactly half of all assets and property earned by my husband.

Although my husband thinks it is morbid and unromantic, he has agreed to do it. I think it is unromantic too, but it will help me feel a lot more secure about screwing over my career to have a family.

What do you ladies think about this? Has anyone else thought about these things? Sorry if I'm a cynic, but I was a child of divorce, so I'm emotionally damaged!! :flipped

Hazelnut

12-07-2005, 08:14 PM

I think it sounds like a good idea. :)
Does he also put money into a retirement fund specifically for you? That's one thing we've been doing.

dukeswalker

12-07-2005, 08:19 PM

Unromantic or not - I think it's a fabulous idea!

Sweetiemommy

12-07-2005, 08:32 PM

I think having a IRA or something like it would be a great idea. Right now, I didn't specifiy what would happen to his 401k in the agreement, because it is his favorite thing in the world, so I thought maybe I would not push the envelope too much. I guess that could be a major loophole in the agreement, if a financial account has not reached maturity and all our funds are tied up in investment, I won't really be able to own "half." I might need to figure out how to word that legally. I'm glad other people think it is a good idea, I kind of feel like I am plotting a divorce or something (nothing could be further from the truth).

captain crunchy

12-07-2005, 08:34 PM

I don't know what state you are in, but where we live, it is a community property state -- so when you divorce, your spouse automatically gets half of all the assets aquired while you were married -- so a document like that wouldn't be neccessary in our case, but I think it is something useful just in case.

I have often wondered about that too... not to hijack, but I have seen a few signatures here that say something like "single SAHM to whoever" and I think...hmmm, how are they doing that? but I thought it would be rude to ask LOL ... oh well, if anyone wants to air their personal story about that, let me know.... just curious is all!!

My Tiny Dancer

12-07-2005, 08:41 PM

I was JUST thinking about this today. Things are great between DH & I, so thats not why I was thinking about it. I was just wondering what I'd do. We got married young and I've never really worked. I worked in a grocery store PT in high school, got married and pregnant right out of high school. I did one semester of college. But if DH & I divorced tomorrow, I have NO way of supporting myself and DD. DH has said before that if we ever divorce, he would help me financially until I got on my feet. Who knows if any of this would ever happen (I hope not!), but it would be nice to have a plan.

I am going back to school in the Fall for Nursing though. Thats my only backup, really.

CalebsMama05

12-07-2005, 09:54 PM

I am a sahm and i think my dh and i may be splitting up soon....but i am going to be working and going to school obviously we wont be living anywhere near as comfortably as we are now (or maybe more so...we arent really comfy right now) but if its best for my family its whats best. I think a document like that is moot since here too the spouse gets half.

MsMoMpls

12-07-2005, 10:02 PM

I think the document is a great idea. I do a lot of divorce work and in MN all the property gets split down the middle but if you have been home full time, you get at least a few years of maintenance (alimony) on top of child support. Depending on the income level and length of the marriage, the maintenance could be permanent but most often it is until the kids are in school full time. One thing that made alimony really messy was that you got it forever, unless you remarried. (Then you became your new husband's problem.) So, many women refused to remarry in order to keep their income. Don't know how that works today... maintenance is pretty rare. Mostly families can't afford to support two households on one income.

Hazelnut

12-07-2005, 10:49 PM

I don't know what state you are in, but where we live, it is a community property state -- so when you divorce, your spouse automatically gets half of all the assets aquired while you were married -- so a document like that wouldn't be neccessary in our case, but I think it is something useful just in case.
!!

I assumed she was talking about what he would earn in the future? Because even if she went back to work, the years she stayed home will likely lower her future earning potential. You don't just give up the salary while you are a SAHM, you give up potential career advancement, salary increases, etc. And all those years of childcare so that he could work and advance benefit him. I thought that was kind of the idea behind alimony, but it's my understanding that it generally doesn't work out so well for women in most cases.

momof4peppers

12-08-2005, 09:20 AM

The document sounds great in theory. You might want to each get your own family lawyer to review it (just like a prenup) so your husband can't claim that he was under duress when he signed it (in the event you do get a divorce).

You may also want to just squirrel away some money every month either literally under your mattress or in a separate account that only you know about. Not necessarily much, but enough that if he were to decide to leave you and you had no warning, at least you'd have access to cash to get you through the first few months.

Sweetiemommy

12-08-2005, 01:13 PM

MsMoMpls

12-08-2005, 01:20 PM

You may also want to just squirrel away some money every month either literally under your mattress or in a separate account that only you know about. Not necessarily much, but enough that if he were to decide to leave you and you had no warning, at least you'd have access to cash to get you through the first few months.

Wow! I think if I felt that suspicious and distrustful of my marriage, I would need a lot more than saving money under my mattress. Of course both of you should have access to some emergency money, at all times. But I worry that this would be more negative than the possibly unromantic plan of the original post.

Rainbow Brite

12-08-2005, 05:18 PM

I've wondered about this, but not to this extent. Here things are split 50/50, but I'd be interested in knowing more about your document. The one poster guessed it was for future other than just the 50/50 split? How does this work?

mamawanabe

12-08-2005, 05:19 PM

[QUOTE=captain crunchy]I don't know what state you are in, but where we live, it is a community property state -- so when you divorce, your spouse automatically gets half of all the assets aquired while you were married -- so a document like that wouldn't be neccessary in our case, but I think it is something useful just in case.
QUOTE]

Not exactly. Because if they divorce after she sah for 10 years, even if she gets 1/2 of all accured assests at the time of the divorce, she is basically 10 years behind in terms of her paycheck and retirement and social security. He certainly couldn't have concentrated so singlemindedly on his career and gotten so far ahead if he didn't have her at home taking care of the kids (getting them out of school when they are sick, driving them to afternoon lessons etc). He has ten years of percentaged raises while she has given up a career that will be hard to restart after ten years out, and once she does restart, she is ten years behind in salary/career.

So say they were both making 40,000 when she became a sahm. 10 years later he is making 80 grand, and they divorce splitting all assests 50/50. She gets a job making 37 (because of ageism and her time out she will start behind where she was). In another 10 years she is making 55 (she couldn't rise as fast because the kids live with her so can't stay late etc when she should for her career) while he is making 140.

How to guard against this, I don't know. I guess that is what alimony is about. Do people still do alimony?

PixelDust

12-08-2005, 06:15 PM

I think it's a good idea to have some kind of written agreement, especially if you don't live in a community property state, don't have a pre-nup, or aren't legally married. It's practical, and it gives you some financial security to make up for the career losses you take by staying at home. And call me crazy, but I think practicality is romantic. :)

Hazelnut

12-08-2005, 08:13 PM

vermonttaylors

12-09-2005, 06:44 AM

post-nuptual agreements are not uncommon. It is a VERY wise thing to do and you are both smart to do it now when feelings are warm and fuzzy and not later if (and I undrstand it is only an "if") things go to hell in a haandbasket.

Good luck and good for you!

Sweetiemommy

12-09-2005, 07:51 AM

Dragonfly

12-09-2005, 09:51 AM

Wow! I think if I felt that suspicious and distrustful of my marriage, I would need a lot more than saving money under my mattress. Of course both of you should have access to some emergency money, at all times. But I worry that this would be more negative than the possibly unromantic plan of the original post.

The problem is that women can lose access to any emergency money pretty quickly if a man decides to leave and empties out the bank account. It's just plain smart to have an account that only you can draw from.

I think your agreement is a great idea (even though you may be entitled to what you're contracting for, anyway). That said, I'd go one step further and provide for spousal support in the years after the marriage. This is where most women get hung up, even if they do get half of the assets. Spousal support is much less common now that women are seen to have the same degree of opportunity in the workplace (which, of course, we all know is not entirely true, especially if you've been out for 10 years raising babies). I'd be more concerned with providing for my income after a divorce rather than assets.

(And about the 401K - in many, if not most, states the portion accumulated during marriage is considered a marital asset.)

nicole lisa

12-09-2005, 01:09 PM

Because too often it is women who suffer economically after divorce (mens' quality of life tends to stay the same or go up while women see the quality of life for them and their children go down, financially speaking) BF and I have an agreement that because we decided I'd stay home and we're unschooling with our DS if anything were to happen to us as a couple he would continue to support me at the same level as now until I'm able to do so myself. It is simply unacceptable and mind-blowing to me (and to him) that men allow their kids to suffer financially after a separation or (as is the case with a girlfriend of mine) feel completely OK with the quality of life received at their place but give no thought to how they're living at their mothers place as the mother struggles to support her kids on roughly half of the income her ex-husband is making because she stayed home for the first 6 years or so and has a big empty space on her resume for those years. It sets so many struggles up - her kids are in the 7/8 yr old range and don't understand why at dad's they can have XYZ and live in a great house and at mom's they can't have not only XYZ but UVW and live in a cramped appartment.

Dragonfly

12-09-2005, 01:37 PM

mama2monkeys

12-09-2005, 01:46 PM

i have been a SAHM for 10 years, we have 3 kids. my stbx decided to leave, even tho we were havung issues i didn't see it coming. I stopped all my education to stay at home & raise a family. i didn't think we would split up, my husband has promoted & is very high ranked now but we split up. now i'm a SAHM of 3, not really doing well at all, in fact we are now sellingthe house as i can not afford it, he works goes out has a good time while i am home eith my kids trying to survive and being a 30 yr old uneducated mom to 3.
i am going to go bacl to school but i can not right now, it is so hard. you can never tell the future. unfortunatly this happens all to often.

nicole lisa

12-09-2005, 07:58 PM

I think that's a great idea. Do you have your agreement in writing?

No, we haven't had it notarized. That's on the to-do list this month right along with our wills and picking a guardian for DS.

We want to have it all together before the new year.

fuller2

12-09-2005, 10:12 PM

There is a SAHM thread on the single mamas board. It helps to live in Canada, where you can get both free health insurance and good, very low-cost child care. Mostly though these mamas are in pretty difficult financial situations, as you'd expect.

One of the single SAHMs got there, I think, because her husband died. She has been living off the life insurance, if I recall correctly. Just another reason to be prepared for anything--you can become a single mom even if you don't get divorced. It is not nice to think about but it happens.

fuller2

12-10-2005, 09:38 AM

Thought of another more long-term issue--if you get divorced and your husband remarries, in a marital property state if he dies after your kids are 18 then his 2nd wife is entitled to everything, even if your kids are the stated beneficiaries of retirement plans & probably others.

If he has a will that includes them it's probably not an issue, but if there is no will then his wife gets it all. This happened to me when my dad died at age 55 without a will when I was about 30--luckily I had a good relationship with his 2nd wife, but if she had wanted to she could have kept the money from his pension & retirement account that was designated to me and my brother. (Most of the money in these accounts was obtained when my dad was still married to my mom.) We were not beneficiaries of any life insurance policies so I don't know if that would also be an issue.

Obviously if your ex-spouse has kids with someone else after you divorce that brings up a whole new set of issues too. You can make yourself crazy thinking about it :), but I think the message is that you shouldn't assume your SAHM status is guaranteed.

meowee

12-10-2005, 09:43 AM

Honestly, if it weren't for the sahm thing, I'd probably be divorced by now. I know I wouldn't be able to sahm with my kids if I divorced, even if I lived with my parents, which would be like waving raw meat under a hungry tiger's nose, but that's a different story. I don't hate my husband or anything don't get me wrong, and he's not abusive, but he's just a condescending control freak on his bad days and honestly there are times when I want out. But really what to do. I talked to friend about it and he said "get your tubes tied and get a job." Ooooookay. Who's going to watch my 5 homeschooled kids while I get my license and then the magic job that will hold us? And what if my brain doesn't hold up, it hasn't before. I'm not a bad person or anything but the brain doesn't always hold up. It happens.

So if DH went and divorced me, yes, I'd have to go live with the tigers, which I'd prefer not to do, especially since one of the tigers drinks starting at 4pm every night.

What you are referring to is a post nuptial agreement. I asked my DH for one. He said no.

So instead I hole up in room and listen to music. It's saved me.

MommyMine

12-10-2005, 11:02 AM

I understand but it is a false security.

One income can not support two households with two mortgages and two utilities and so on in any state similar to how it can support one.

Best advice is to focus on your marriage. Work hard every day to keep it strong. I too fear this and that is how I deal with my fear. My poor husband gets drug to marriage workshops and is forced to endure all kinds of check-ins on the state of our union :)

And not just because of financial security...do it for your kids!

I have a verbal understanding with my husband that if we split I will seek alimony for several years until I can get back into the workforce. He knows he can't afford to leave me! But we all know I have lost some of my income potential. It is a choice I made.

meowee

12-10-2005, 12:06 PM

I agree postnup is pretty much false security. What I wanted was 1. house deed in my name and 2. custody agreement at least 51% in my favor. I'm not saying I wouldn't share the kids but he has used my being homeless and taking the kids away to scare me. So I wondered without that fear mongering what would he have left. He agreed to it but never did it and now won't. He is a lawyer btw.

momof4peppers

12-11-2005, 08:54 PM

We have several friend who are lawyers who say that it will hold up in court. As long as it is notarized, he would have to come up with some sort of evidence that he was under duress, not to mention that it would be perjury to falsely claim that you were under duress. I think it is a pretty solid document and I certainly don't intend to stash money away in case he leaves. That sounds pretty desperate. My name is on everything we own and I am just interested in protecting my fair share of monetary assets and properties other than our house (many states provide half of the residential property to a spouse, but they certainly do not provide half of every asset. Alimony only lasts for 2 years on average, a "reasonable" amount of time for the mom to find employment and childcare. Most courts side with the spouse who has earned the income, leaving the SAHM with a "reasonable" settlement (the judge gets to decide what is reasonable - no thanks!). It is also necessary in most cases to prove that both parties agreed for one spouse to stay at home, otherwise the husband can claim that the wife willfully gave up employment in order to earn "personal rewards." Trust me, I've taken several courses on this topic, feminist jurisprudence; women and work; and marriage, courtship and the family, just to name a few.

That's all fine, well, and good. But the reason I suggest squirreling away money is that courts take time. And if you're doing this to protect yourself in the event he leaves, he could (and most likely would) empty out your joint accounts before he leaves. Which you may or may not see coming. So he announces he's leaving, your kids are in bed, you WERE planning on running out to get milk & groceries but he walks out (or you're too distressed), you have no cash in your wallet because you need to hit the ATM before going to the grocery store. You get there, and guess what? No money (because STBX has just emptied out the account), no groceries, and you're stuck running up credit card bills buying gas and groceries for the month or two it takes to get access to your "joint" money.

You're trying to plan to be safe and financially sound in the event your DH leaves. All of your proposals and documents are great - FOR THE LONG TERM. I suggest stashing cash (and like i said, not necessarily a lot) for the SHORT term, immediate need. I don't think I've ever known someone who was left by their husband to be thinking clearly in the immediate aftermath. Unfortunately I DO know women who planned for the long term, but not the short term. And got caught trying to make a difficult situation for their kids even MORE difficult, because there was no $$ to pay for the food they were used to eating, the band uniforms they wanted to wear, the dance lessons they were counting on taking, etc. And the EX having claimed "no money - they don't NEED those things anyway" and the long wait to GET cash.

Stashing cash away isn't desperate, it's smart.

mamabohl

12-12-2005, 06:53 AM

Sweetiemommy

12-12-2005, 08:57 AM

In response to the pp, who is worried that my dh will empty out the accounts, my name is on all of our accounts - our bank has a safeguard for couples that neither can empty out or remove a significant portion from each account without the other's consent. We also have laws in our state that can grant immediate support (takes less than one week) for children and sometimes spouses who have been recently separated.

I understand the idea behind stashing money, if I sensed our marriage was losing it's spark, I might be inclined to do somethng like that - right now it just isn't necessary for us. We actually have a fantastic marriage, I just want to ensure that I would be compensated for time spent as a SAHM in the event of divorce. I don't think it is "desperate" at all under the right circumstances.

MsChatsAlot

12-12-2005, 11:03 AM

I agree that the short term is more important than the long term.

I am a single SAHM and it's not easy. Short term, I was okay, because I was pregnant with #2 and not able to work so I received alimony for a short term. That helped a lot as well I downsized and became a lot more thrifty. I have been a SAHM single mom now for almost 5 years, so it is possible. And, I agree, that generally one income cannot pay for 2 homes.

While there are days when I "wish" that we had more money or think that my ex should pay more for his family...the truth is that I'm happier becoming independent. I would rather make my own money than live off my ex for the rest of my life. It's a feeling of freedom and strength and independence that could not be replaced by the financial security of living off my ex's income indefinitely. I personally can't wait until my income is such that I can decide how and when to spend my money (I am currently a student). When I can do whatever I want and provide entirely for my family. I can hardly wait until I no longer need his child support to pay bills, but I can use it for long term educational investments for the kids. I can hardly wait to be free from his money!

Wausau74

12-14-2005, 09:07 AM

phathui5

12-14-2005, 09:32 AM

:truedat:

We have a hefty life insurance policy on dh to insure that I am able to stay home to raise the kids if he dies. I've been meaning to get one for myself so dh could either do the same or pay a nanny so we could keep the kids out of school if I were to die.

But short of abuse, the marriage isn't ending. There's no "deciding not to stay married" because we lost the spark or aren't feeling it anymore. It's not about feelings for me. I do love my dh very much, but even if my feelings were to change I would stay.

MommyMine

12-14-2005, 09:54 AM

You know if the post nup is too much you create incentive for murder rather than divorce....just a though. Most women (who are murdered) are murdered by thier husbands- not strangers.

Cloverlove

12-14-2005, 10:08 AM

I was feeling this way last year and I did something pretty drastic…

I got a job.

After being home for 7 years, I was starting to feel very economically vulnerable. This is nothing against dh or our relationship—we are great. But for myself, personally, I was having a hard time reconciling mamawanabe’s scenario:

So say they were both making 40,000 when she became a sahm. 10 years later he is making 80 grand, and they divorce splitting all assests 50/50. She gets a job making 37 (because of ageism and her time out she will start behind where she was). In another 10 years she is making 55 (she couldn't rise as fast because the kids live with her so can't stay late etc when she should for her career) while he is making 140.

He just received another raise and promotion and while I felt really happy for my family, it was very difficult for me personally.

I guess the bottom line is that I always think it is good to have a plan. :) People obviously have different comfort levels of what they need to have out of the deal: life insurance, stashing away money, post-nuptial agreements &/or maintaining economic independence (ie: working). And while I think it is very sweet and romantic to say that divorce just isn't an option -- I also think it is very unrealistic. Sorry, I just do.

lilyka

12-14-2005, 10:49 AM

Wow, I guess I am the odd woman out. If the situation was reversed and DH came to me with something like that, I would be horrified. For us, divorce just isn't an option. Now if one of us decides to have an affair, that is the deal breaker. I am aware that it could happen- we are not perfect- but I have enough trust in my DH to think the chances of him doing that are slim to none. I also have enough faith in the man to trust if that did ever happen he would take care of us. So I will be the lone voice saying I wouldn't do that.

In the last year my dh has inaapropriate relationships with other women and ben ready to walk out on us (he wasn't going to tell us. just leave us with his mess :eyesroll) and I still think making an agreement for "when he divorces me" is , not bad karma, maybe self fulfilling destiny? I don't want a back up plan. I don't want a plan B. I want "making this work" to be our only valid option. if he does leave it will suck eithe way but then we are dirt poor so I don't have to worry about not being comfortably taken care. we really could live off child supoort, alimony, and welfare and our situation might actually improve.

Jilian

12-14-2005, 11:13 AM

I think that the agreement is a good idea. I also agree with the other mamas who say that even though your DH has agreed to support you in the case of a divorce, your lifestyle most likely would not be anywhere near where it is now. One income supporting two households is tough.

I had a great job when my son was conceived. I was making around $46,000 a year and receiving regular raises and bonuses (union job). DH and I decided I would leave the job to become a SAHM when I got preg and I did. Now we're going through a divorce. I had to put DS in daycare and get a job. It tore my heart out to put him in daycare. Ex does not support us in any way but we do have split custody. Ex is VERY well off. So here we are fighting like crazy to get some sort of support and living close to poverty. I am trying like hell to work something out so I can go back to being mostly a WAHM and get to spend more time with my DS.

Divorce sucks, CYA in case something unforseeable does happen. I never thought I'd end up divorced....

Linda on the move

12-14-2005, 11:23 AM

But short of abuse, the marriage isn't ending. There's no "deciding not to stay married" because we lost the spark or aren't feeling it anymore. It's not about feelings for me. I do love my dh very much, but even if my feelings were to change I would stay.

I have a friend who felt the same way but none the less is in the middle of getting a divorce because her husband had a midlife crises and left her for a much younger woman. He has totally screwed her over financially and no longer cares about his kids. She would have taken him back after the affair for the sake of their 3 kids, but he wanted out.

This isn't something that you have total control over. If you husband decides not to come home anymore, there isn't anything you can do about it.

Cloverlove

12-14-2005, 11:54 AM

Oops! I just realized I posted in the SAHM forum. :o I saw the title and I felt I could relate. :)

Update: I did quit my job just before Thanksgiving b/c it was very difficult for us to keep up the 2 FT working parent schedule/lifestyle. However, I will be going back PT after the start of the year.

Again, my apologies. :down

phathui5

12-14-2005, 01:26 PM

If you husband decides not to come home anymore, there isn't anything you can do about it.

No, there isn't. My first husband left (moved ds#1 and I out so he could move his new girlfriend in). It was a bad situation. He didn't have the same sort of committment to marriage that I did, even from the beginning. We never would have gotten married had I not been pregnant.

Dh now is also a Christian and has the same take on it that I do.

mamawanabe

12-14-2005, 02:32 PM

Dh now is also a Christian and has the same take on it that I do.

Yes, I am sure your dh is wonderful and true, so I don't mean this next statment to be at all pointed at your dh.

But my friend was a "dancer" in knoxville a few years back, and she contends that business was never as good as it was when the promise keepers were in town. A christian husband is no guarantee . . .

phathui5

12-14-2005, 03:04 PM

Erg, that's disappointing (about the Promise Breakers).

mamawanabe

12-14-2005, 03:31 PM

Erg, that's disappointing (about the Promise Breakers).

I thought so too :(

FreeThinkinMama

12-14-2005, 11:35 PM

I have also considered this as a sahm. For one thing we have a joint checking account and I have a seperate account with my name only. I handle all of our finances, even though he is the breadwinner. We've tried it where he pays the bills but things don't get paid on time because he procrastinates and we end up with late fees and overdrafts. I'm working on my college degree right now for a few reasons. First, to fulfill home school law requirements in my state. Second, to possibly run a daycare from home one day and finally as something to fall back on in the event of a divorce. I would probably try to find a way to make money from home, which I already do, but most likely I would have to start working again. I never considered a post-nup, I think that's an excellent idea. My dh supports my being a sahm and realizes that if we both had to work our dd would have to be left with strangers all day.

We've been together for 10 years and I doubt we will ever get a divorce. We both take our marriage vows seriously and we've been through some really rough times and still love each other. But I also think that there is no guarantee in marriage, the other person could change or fall out love. You might both change and realize you no longer have anything in common. Someone might cheat. You never know. So although I think it's unlikely I also feel more secure having back up plans and being prepared just in case. Like anything else in life really.

Another tip: make sure all the bills are in your husband's name.

Sweetiemommy

12-15-2005, 08:59 AM

phathui5 - we totally agree about divorce not being an option. This is really just for a scenario like the other poster mentioned, if he has a midlife crisis and decides to leave (which he has no intention to do obviously!!). Basically it is to make me feel more secure about being a sahm. If we were planning the possibility of divorce, I don't think he would have signed it.

The pp who mentioned husbands murdering wives, that is a very true statistic. However, there is no history of domestic violence here and the document would serve as a good motive, so I'm not too concerned about it.

I think I am almost finished with the wording, does anyone want to read it?

FreeThinkinMama

12-15-2005, 12:19 PM

me me me!

Daisie125

12-15-2005, 12:39 PM

DH and I are going to draw up something before the baby is born, a total support agreement (he would support me and our child(ren) until they have moved out.

I was a SAHM with DD, and lost custody of her because I had no way to support her and nowhere to live. (So much for family, eh?) It took me almost a year to become stable, and by then it was too late.

DH knows everything I went through and is actually the one who wants to get it all in writing. I won't say that being a SAHM doesn't concern me, because it still kind of does, I know what can happen.

Linda on the move

12-16-2005, 08:27 AM

Another tip: make sure all the bills are in your husband's name.

I disagree. My friend who is going through a divorce right now couldn't change the cable to take off all the premium channels her DH had ordered because her name wasn't on the account. She couldn't change their cell phone plan to a less expensive one because her name wasn't on the account. When she went to put the utilities in her name only the utility companies wanted deposits because her name wasn't on the accounts. Her soon to be ex refused to make the necessary calls to sort this stuff out.

MsChatsAlot

12-16-2005, 08:31 AM

Yes, it is important that a sahm has bills in her own name, especially a credit card.

When my husband left, who was going to give me an account? I wasn't working, I was pregnant.....the only way things worked out was because some of the bills were in my name and the credit card was in my name as well.

Selesai

12-16-2005, 08:54 AM

This is a tough thread.
I realize I maybe shouldn't be posting on it, as I am not a SAHM. But I have a few perspectives to offer.
My husband has a DS from his first marriage. Just the amount of child support he pays each month, which includes the day care bills, is so much that he can't live on what he has left. And he is a modest person-- we're not talking about a $100k income or expensive cars. He effectively does support two households right now, and that's not including alimony. This is the problem with divorce, as others have stated: one income CANNOT support two households. And even with just the child support obligation, were my husband alone he would barely be able to provide a room, clothes, and toys for his child when he is with us.
Secondly, my husband will likely be the person to stay home when our baby is born. I'm attorney and my earning potential is much better than his. We aren't making much now. But I have to say that IF we ever did separate (which I just can't imagine, and which I would never want to do to my children) I know I would keep my promises. I promised to pay off his student loans. I would not leave him high and dry-- I promised I would pay household bills (most of which are in his name) too. He has credit cards, we have a joint account, we don't hide money and I don't play games.
Some of you might argue that "oh, she says that now, but she will change her mind when she wants to live lavishly and her husband can't pay his rent." But that's not true. Not all spouses would treat their SAHP as crappily as others do, regardless of the circumstances. It's about fairness, and humanity, and some of us still have it.
Just my two cents.

zonapellucida

12-16-2005, 01:30 PM

zonapellucida

12-16-2005, 01:34 PM

I disagree. My friend who is going through a divorce right now couldn't change the cable to take off all the premium channels her DH had ordered because her name wasn't on the account. She couldn't change their cell phone plan to a less expensive one because her name wasn't on the account. When she went to put the utilities in her name only the utility companies wanted deposits because her name wasn't on the accounts. Her soon to be ex refused to make the necessary calls to sort this stuff out.

I believe the bills should be in your name so you can cacel at will. An Ex can be the nastiest person on earth... JMO

FreeThinkinMama

12-16-2005, 07:42 PM

I disagree. My friend who is going through a divorce right now couldn't change the cable to take off all the premium channels her DH had ordered because her name wasn't on the account. She couldn't change their cell phone plan to a less expensive one because her name wasn't on the account. When she went to put the utilities in her name only the utility companies wanted deposits because her name wasn't on the accounts. Her soon to be ex refused to make the necessary calls to sort this stuff out.

but if his name was on it then he was obligated to pay it, extras and all. that was my reason for putting the accts in the breadwinners name.

Sweetiemommy

12-16-2005, 11:28 PM

You need to have a credit card in your name to build credit for yourself and I agree that having bills in your name would help to have control over what is cancelled or changed in the event of a divorce.

In regards to the pp who said that it is difficult to support two households with one income - I think that it is pretty obvious that the child is the very last person who should have to go without in a divorce. Whoever has custody of the children should certainly get economic priority.

FreeThinkinMama

12-17-2005, 03:58 AM

Can you please post the agreement you made? I'd like to get some ideas for ours, I talked to my dh about it and he was all for it:)

bjorker

12-17-2005, 04:12 AM

Oh my goodness. What a great thread!

I am going to come back and read the rest later, I only skimmed the first half-page or so, so far.

I have absolutely no reason to think that myself and dp will ever separate (and we have a slightly special case for never being married... that's for our own reasons, not for any lack of relationship strength). However, I think it is always logical to consider that it's a possibility. I would feel ignorant if I didn't acknowledge the possibility that people can and do grow apart, especially in this society.

I'm not really sure what I can do without actually even being married, but I hope to get more of a grasp on this issue once I can sit down and read this thread through.

I myself have only ever worked retail and have an associates degree from a community college. Certainly nothing that is going to get me very far. It is something that has been on the back of my mind for awhile.

You guys are awesome. I'll be back.

nicole lisa

12-17-2005, 03:26 PM

I'm not really sure what I can do without actually even being married, but I hope to get more of a grasp on this issue once I can sit down and read this thread through.

BF and I aren't married (together 10 years at this point) and won't ever be married (nothing to do with strength or trust issues in relationship) but in Canada it doesn't matter once you have a kid together and live together. The laws are the same as if you were married. (That's its own can of worms for us - it's like being made to be married and neither BF nor I forgot to get married so we don't need it done on our behalfs, but that's OT)

fuller2

01-01-2006, 04:11 PM

Not to ruin anyyone's New Year or anything, but...there's an essay by a former SAHM in the New York Times today who was dumped by her husband after being married for 40 years. She had even written a book and done the Oprah etc. circuit about being a SAHM a while back, but is now rethinking the whole thing because of what happened to her. She had done lots of volunteering etc. but had no "real" job skills and found herself in very difficult circumstances when her husband left her.

(you may have to register to read this, it's free though.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/01/fashion/sundaystyles/01LOVE.html

jkpmomtoboys

01-03-2006, 04:06 PM

MommyMine

01-03-2006, 04:17 PM

That article has had me thinking for days.

One thing I think is important to note is that this isn't an issue of sahm's only- this is an issue of any wife and mother. Working or home your husband can leave you at any time and since women generally make less than men how many of our working sisters would be just as up a creek as those of us who are home? Except that as a working mom you would fare worse in court in regards to getting alimony or a piece of his retirment savings!

What it makes me want to do is make a nice dinner for DH tonight and focus on my marriage. I hope I never forget to do that.

mamawanabe

01-03-2006, 04:27 PM

That was an interesting article. However, she did say that she would do the same SAHM thing again if she had to do it all over, but continue her education once her kids were in school. It's a cautionary tale about keeping your resume fairly current, not a diatribe against SAHM'ing.

Still, very very sad. I love dh dearly but if he did that to me, I'd cut off his you-know-what's...;)

Happened to my mom. My dad blindsided her after 26 years of a not great, not terrible marriage. Happened when things were looking good too; happened when both were happiest.

Happened to my best friend's mom and to several of my mom's freinds. Men turn 50 and leave their wives . . .

She had gone back to school and got a teaching degree when we were in jr. high, so except for having to work till she is 75 to qualify for a state pension, she is fine. Of course, she was young when she had us. Same stats would have me needing to work till I am 87 to build a retirement.

jkpmomtoboys

01-03-2006, 04:35 PM

Happened to my mom. My dad blindsided her after 26 years of a not great, not terrible marriage. Happened when things were looking good too; happened when both were happiest.

Happened to my best friend's mom and to several of my mom's freinds. Men turn 50 and leave their wives . .

How sad for your mom and their friends. However, I don't think it's true universally that men leave their wives when they turn 50. 99% of my parents' friends and dh's parents' friends are still married. 99% of my friend's parents and dh's parents' friends are still married.

I'm sure it must be terrible.

mamawanabe

01-03-2006, 04:43 PM

What it makes me want to do is make a nice dinner for DH tonight and focus on my marriage. I hope I never forget to do that.

But men don't just leave their wives because their wives were bad wives. Wives can cook a million the yummy dinners and focus their little hearts out on their dh/marriage, and it is still a real possibility that they could be dumped when their dh hits middle-age.

Look at your own family.

My dad left my mom when he turned 50 (to his credit, not for another woman). My maternal grandfather left my grandmother for a younger woman (one of his students). My paternal grandfather didn't leave, but he did have at least one affair in his 50s that the family knows about. While my parents' marriage wasn't the best (my mom adored my father but he never really respected her), both my grandparents' marriages seemed solid 9to the family anyway). My maternal grandmother was a witty and fun companion for a witty and fun man. My other grandmother was a completely devoted, adoring wife to a man that thrived on such devotion.

Now, I think dh and I will be different - dh doesn't have that strain of selfish egoism by dad and grandfathers have/had. But I will still protect myself and my children finacially. There won't be a 50% 50% division of assets if we split because that ignores the fact that I gave up a lucrative career I can't return to as well as the fact that he couldn't have progressed so far in his career without me putting my career away in order to sah with the kids. My post-split finacial outlook will be VERY different than his, and that is what these kinds are agreements try to mitigate a bit.

mamawanabe

01-03-2006, 04:53 PM

How sad for your mom and their friends. However, I don't think it's true universally that men leave their wives when they turn 50. 99% of my parents' friends and dh's parents' friends are still married. 99% of my friend's parents and dh's parents' friends are still married.

I'm sure it must be terrible.

really?! What great numbers.

Only one of my friends' parents are still together. It was brutal. I mean, seriously, EVERYBODY I knew growing up had parents who split when they were in elementary school or split when they hit college (i.e. when their dads turned 50). Maybe it was geographic (I grew up in a small southern town in the 80s).

Now things ARE better in dh's family. His parents and grandparents are still together, and many of his aunts and uncles are still married. I don't have a single sucessfull marriage in my entire family (unless you count my grandparents who stayed married when my grandfather cheated in his 50s)

MsChatsAlot

01-03-2006, 05:01 PM

I think that life is what you make it. There are unpredictable things that will occur all throughout our lives. There are always opportunities if we want them and are willing to move forward. Many people (men and women) create whole new careers for themselves later in life, it is possible.

As I stated before, as a single mom, I really can't wait to be free from my ex and his money. I can't wait for the day when I can use his "child support" as total investment for the kids and know that I am supporting them and can pay for whatever I want.

Nothing in life is guaranteed. We have to make the best decisions for what is happening in our lives right now and change as we go along.

It is possible to re-create a career later in life. It is possible to create a new career later in life. A lot of it has to do with the way people look at things.

sohj

01-03-2006, 05:08 PM

Hi, all! :tiphat: Hope I'm not intruding.

Just want to contribute another way to look at the idea of a post-nuptual agreement. I know this isn't the situation here and there's stuff in this little tale that some of you might totally not identify with due to our chosen lives; but, it is a different approach to what is essentially similar. Here's a not-so-short story:

For those of you who don't know me (and I don't recognize a lot of names here), I'm one of the WOHM's here and I'm a civil engineer. Fairly high pressure job. One child.

A few months ago, (as I posted in another place) DH had suggested that I quit my job and we make the move to VT to our land. He was feeling overwhelmed that we had been attempting to push ahead with our various alt-energy projects despite me being the brains of them and me always being exhausted. He said he could telecommute and our health would probably improve in cleaner air. Well, this was tempting, but I was caught in indecision. I wouldn't be earning any money, he'd be earning all or most of the incomming. I would be stepping out of my "career". There would be all those guys I work with who might say, "See, women. They claim they want a job but then they have a kid and there they go."

Despite having sensible responses to all of these things -- I'd be working and my project would eventually bring in money; I would still be doing engineering, I just would be doing it for myself; I'd be making a space for the career I wanted and what I was wanting for ages before >surprise< finding I was pregnant, not what "everyone" thinks is the right career path -- I was still really indecisive. I didn't know how to organize it and I was worried that once DH was making all the money he would be effectively in a position to control the purse-strings and, therefore, I'd always feel a power dynamic I really wouldn't want to deal with.

I said to the DH one evening: "You know, I'm thinking very seriously about your offer [I had put him off by saying I can't think about this until after my licensing exam in October] and I have reservations about how we would do it both in a practical sense and how we would organize ourselves to do it. If I were to give up my paycheck and business card from a prestigious Consulting firm, I want a contract between us on the business end of our partnership. You would be providing day-to-day financing, but I would be providing skills in engineering, machine maintenance, and organization and planning. I would be doing the networking and trying to create the "lobby" for the local small producers. I'd be making sure our vehicles ran and money didn't have to be spent at a mechanic's shop. I'd be bringing an investment to the partnership in skill while you'd be bringing it in money and I want a contract spelling all that out."

Guess what? He said "Yeah" right off! Thinks it is a wonderful idea and we both think that we really should have done this when we went to Spain for his work in 1990. {Then, I was the money-earner and he was the person persuing a plan. It was difficult and there were conflicts and expectation-issues and lots of other stuff. Power issues. Long story.}

:hippie So, what does that have to do with this? Well, a SAHM is performing a job. With luck, she is also doing a labor of love; but, we all know there are those days when it might not be.

There is also the fact that the word "economics" comes from the ancient greek for household: oekinomos. The basis of an economy is the simple household and how it functions.

Jobs often change as one performs them. This is never more true than in a family, an entity that is ever in flux. Having a post-nuptual agreement is, I think, simply an acknowledgement that there are responsibilities and risks and rights on all sides. In fact, I think in a truly egalitarian and loving family, as the children grow, there would be a Family Contract that would continue to be re-negotiated as the situation changes.

I don't think that this idea is distrustful. I think it is bold.

Hope I haven't taken up too much space here. :down

MommyMine

01-03-2006, 05:09 PM

But men don't just leave their wives because their wives were bad wives. Wives can cook a million the yummy dinners and focus their little hearts out on their dh/marriage, and it is still a real possibility that they could be dumped when their dh hits middle-age.

YOu know I could be killed in a car accident at any time.

I take comfort in that I am a good driver but still I could be hit. I think my working hard to be a good driver helps my chances but still....

I think my dinner comment was the same. I work on my marriage and I think that improves my odds, my dh and I both talk about our marriage a lot and work on it a lot....but my dh could turn into a jerk overnight. I could turn into a jerk too and decide the pool guy is really hot (we don't have a pool but you get the idea) but I can't be paralized by that fear. I have to keep on keeping on.

My dh, because he is divorced, will no way ever sign a post nup like that- he KNOWS how bad a normal divorce would be, honestly I would advice anyone I know to never sign such an agreement! I think that were you to get divorced if you do leave your ex financially ruined you will be hoist on your own petard.

There is no security. Life is risk.

And if you do get divorced and you end up financially well while your dh is left so financially crippled he can't start over and move on your kids will notice that and they will take the side of the parent who is suffering. Divorce leaves no "right" answers and nothing is fair. It is all a lot of bad options and crappy choices.

Even if we are financially poor later my kids will be richin spirit for my staying home today. Today I make the choice to stay home-in an insecure world. I do it because it is the right thing for my family and my children.

justmama

01-03-2006, 05:19 PM

Definitely a real concern. I'm a sahm and I'm in the middle of a divorce and have NO money of my own and NO job skills(I left high school and started having babies) and nothing current on my resume. I am at the mercy of the husband who is leaving me and blindsided me with the divorce. If he cleans out our acct and ditches the kids and I, I'm screwed. I don't think sahm's should sock away money under the mattress but I think some sort of agreement should be written up like everyone is agreeing on so far. AND I think sahm's should protect themselves by giving themselves or having their hubby's give them a weekly or monthly allowance just for THEM. And they should maintain it in a bank acct for whatever they deem necessary. Should a separation occur, they can fall back on that.

Meg

AngelBee

01-03-2006, 06:09 PM

mamawanabe

01-03-2006, 07:21 PM

YOu know I could be killed in a car accident at any time.

I take comfort in that I am a good driver but still I could be hit. I think my working hard to be a good driver helps my chances but still....

I think my dinner comment was the same. I work on my marriage and I think that improves my odds, my dh and I both talk about our marriage a lot and work on it a lot....but my dh could turn into a jerk overnight. I could turn into a jerk too and decide the pool guy is really hot (we don't have a pool but you get the idea) but I can't be paralized by that fear. I have to keep on keeping on.

My dh, because he is divorced, will no way ever sign a post nup like that- he KNOWS how bad a normal divorce would be, honestly I would advice anyone I know to never sign such an agreement! I think that were you to get divorced if you do leave your ex financially ruined you will be hoist on your own petard.

There is no security. Life is risk.

And if you do get divorced and you end up financially well while your dh is left so financially crippled he can't start over and move on your kids will notice that and they will take the side of the parent who is suffering. Divorce leaves no "right" answers and nothing is fair. It is all a lot of bad options and crappy choices.

Even if we are financially poor later my kids will be richin spirit for my staying home today. Today I make the choice to stay home-in an insecure world. I do it because it is the right thing for my family and my children.

I would have life insurance for the possibility of being killed in a car wreak. This is no different. There are resonable things you can do to mitigate "unforseeable" financial hardships. We are not talking about making dh suffer finacially while I am finacially well offl; we are talking about mitigating the reality that my standard of living will be DRASTICALLY less than his standard of living if we spilt assets 50 50.

jkpmomtoboys

01-03-2006, 07:42 PM

really?! What great numbers.

Only one of my friends' parents are still together. It was brutal. I mean, seriously, EVERYBODY I knew growing up had parents who split when they were in elementary school or split when they hit college (i.e. when their dads turned 50). Maybe it was geographic (I grew up in a small southern town in the 80s).

Dh was in an Econ class in college (where we met) and his prof asked the class of 300 to raise their hands if their parents were divorced. Maybe 5-10 hands went up, dh said, and his prof started talking about how divorce is much less common statistically among (a) people who have higher education and (b) people in an upper-middle class socioeconomic strata, so it didn't surprise him that there weren't very many divorces in the class.

I don't know why this is (I think dh forgot that part of the lesson ;) but I thought it was interesting. Not saying it applies to anyone here, just interesting.

mamawanabe

01-03-2006, 09:18 PM

Dh was in an Econ class in college (where we met) and his prof asked the class of 300 to raise their hands if their parents were divorced. Maybe 5-10 hands went up, dh said, and his prof started talking about how divorce is much less common statistically among (a) people who have higher education and (b) people in an upper-middle class socioeconomic strata, so it didn't surprise him that there weren't very many divorces in the class.

I don't know why this is (I think dh forgot that part of the lesson ;) but I thought it was interesting. Not saying it applies to anyone here, just interesting.

Well, that makes sense - finacial pressure is a big reason for divorce. The town I grew up in that was divorce crazy was also decidely workingclass (though working class with lots of oil money). But it doesn't work for the late divorces that happened to my best friend's parents and my own parents and grandparents (all our fathers were hyper-educated academics). Divorces do seem like they would be pretty common in the professional classes because of oportunity that apprentice system creates - professors and graduate students, partners and associates, doctors and interns working closely together in a unsymetrical (but moving toward equality unlike that of boss and employee) relationship full of power and recognition.

Now Dh's family, which has MUCH less incidence of divorce than my own, is REALLY working class (as in they work in GM factories). So who knows. I'm thinking region has more inpact than class. If people around you aren't divorcing, than you are much less likley to.

Divorce is statiscally less likely than the common 50% stat (50% of marriages end but 50% of married people don't end in divorce - serial marriers drive up the stat), but it is common enough that I still think it smart for sahms to protect themselves legally. It is much more likley that our spouse will divorce us than die before retirement, yet we don't think it a bad plan to have life insurance. . .

the_lissa

01-03-2006, 09:21 PM

See, the studies I have read says the opposite- that middle and upper classes are more likely to get divorced. One of the reasons is that divorce is often too expensive for poorer people to afford, so they often stay married or just separate and don't legally divorce.

Storm Bride

01-03-2006, 10:33 PM

AND I think sahm's should protect themselves by giving themselves or having their hubby's give them a weekly or monthly allowance just for THEM. And they should maintain it in a bank acct for whatever they deem necessary. Should a separation occur, they can fall back on that.
...depends on the ex.

I had my own bank account. In fact, I was better off financially after my breakup, because I had been the main breadwinner all along (not a really high paying job, either - capped out at about $40K on my best year). But, the ex was sucking me dry by blowing money right left and center. So, anyway - we broke up.

A couple of days before I left, with my son, for a week vacation in Knoxville, my sister let my ex into my suite to see our son. (We shared a house, and she was really chummy with my ex.) When I go to Knoxville, I discovered that my chequing account was $200.00 short of where it should have been. My ex had rummaged around until he found my chequebook and forged my signature on a cheque to himself. So, even your own account isn't protection if the spouse is a big enough jerk.

Storm Bride

01-03-2006, 10:36 PM

Marsupialmom

01-03-2006, 10:45 PM

Life has hit me here and there.....Life does happen.............

But the thing we are teaching our children, especially girls is to prepare for the 3 D's: Death, Divorce, and Disease.

I have been divorced and technically homeless, and very jobless. It is a scary place to be, that is why I work on my second marriage much harder and better than my first.

My dh has had to miss a lot of work, have two surgeries, and had mysterious chest pains. I would be up a creek if I had to become the sole provider because he was too ill. We have acquaintances that are going through this now. They have been a SAHM and know he is having to be a SAHD because he no longer CAN work. She has maintain a job skill that has let her enter the work force. My dh fears getting ill and loosing our lively hood. After his last surgery he got very depressed. The one reality that hit us both, with my lack of job options he would be better off dieing than getting ill again.

Death, the financial change there I would think be obvious. Dreadful reality. I would be ok for a while because of life insurance but it wouldn’t last me until I die. It would get me re-educated and my kids through college.

We want out kids to get educated in something that they can do minimally to maintain ability but if need be use it to support their family. This support doesn’t have to be at the same level as the other provider but a roof over their heads and food on the table.

*****************************
Also, I can say from my life experiences that many men leave at age 50 because the kids are grown. I predicted my ex-bil divorce when I was 16. My now husband laughed me off. I said he was staying for the kids. His generation was very much so taught this. The men leaving after the kids are grown (or almost) marriages usually were over long time before. I also think we need to step back and realize MEN don’t just leave WOMEN but Women leave men also. Statistically speaking women file and ask for more of the divorces and men are more likely not realize it was as bad as it was. We need to get rid of some of the myths of divorce.

http://www.aarpmagazine.org/family/Articles/a2004-05-26-mag-divorce.html

The majority of midlife divorces are initiated by women. Don't believe it? In the AARP survey, 66 percent of women reported that they asked for the divorce, compared with 41 percent of men. And men more often than women were caught off-guard by their divorce (the news blind-sided 26 percent of men, compared with 14 percent of women). Chuck, 58, a financial planner in Fresno, California, is one of these men. He had been married for 34 years when in 1996 his wife told him that she wanted a divorce. "Something was obviously going on, and I was either unwilling or too dumb to look at it," he now says.

********
I am going to disagree with the person that says who ever gets custody should get economic priority. There is a give and take here. My dh works with men and women that had two jobs and never saw her kids because of having to pay child support plus divorce bills. I have known guys to not have visits with their kids because they don’t have beds for them much less feed their kids on visitation.

*******
One note about hiding money from spouse. It can cause problems and make the guy feel like you are lying so do it carefully and maybe openly. Most people form MDC complain about men that hide financial assets but beware the laws that can effect men that are hiding assets can affect you also. (I know there is a different issues with abuse).

*******
One of the issues about women earning and having less after divorce I am finding might not be as clear cut as some statistics might make it. When a couple divorces the man usually gets most of the bills and child support (alimony is going to the way side and is being coming a temporary situation). When this man remarries moves in with a woman he picks up more financial responsibility. Were when the woman remains she might loose financial responsibility. One of the things I have been trying to read and learn about is HOW and when they are questioning after divorce. It SEEMS like many studies are not taking in account for less dollar amount because of remarriage/moving in with a boy friend and having that “unrecorded” source of income. My current husband is making decent money. I haven’t received child support in over nine years. At one point in time, I could go get food stamps for my first child using only MY income which was nothing. They didn’t even include my current husbands income. My dh and I get tax benifits my ex doesn't get (and at his current income he needs).

fuller2

01-03-2006, 11:55 PM

I'd suggest that everybody look at the Single Mamas forum. There are some single mamas by choice, of course, but most of them are there through divorce. Lots of bitterness but also lots of appreciation for being free of a bad situation, and also a lot of women who are proud of themselves for keeping their lives together and supporting themselves after becoming single moms. It doesn't have to end badly (though the transition can be horrible). I personally look at the SAHM mamas forum sometimes because it is so different from my situation :), and also to get a glimpse of what it might have been like.

Storm Bride

01-03-2006, 11:59 PM

I also think we need to step back and realize MEN don’t just leave WOMEN but Women leave men also. Statistically speaking women file and ask for more of the divorces and men are more likely not realize it was as bad as it was. We need to get rid of some of the myths of divorce.
This is true, and I'm watching a man in my own family get shafted by a female relative of mine. She's been emotionally abusive to him from the beginning, and he's getting nailed to the wall because she won't take responsibility for anything that happens in her life. However, the stats don't always tell the whole story, either. I filed for divorce. My ex would have been quite happy to stay married to me forever. Why not? I was the one killing myself to bring home a paycheque (my health at the end can't even be described). I was the one losing babies because he was doing drugs behind my back. I was the one cooking, cleaning, and doing 100% of the child care. I was the one paying the bills...both by earning the money and taking care of the paperwork. I was the one doing the grocery shopping, even though he was the one with the driver's license. I filed...he ended it. He probably didn't realize how bad it was...he was fed, sheltered and cleaned up after...what was so bad about it...if you were him? The paperwork shows none of that. It shows a divorce based on one year of separation...period.

KatSG

01-04-2006, 12:11 AM

I think it's romantic that he understand her concerns and is willing to work with her to help her feel empowered and protected. :) To me this shows that he appreciates what she does. There's nothing more romantic than a guy who is willing to see beyond his privilege and see what disadvantages women might face. That has sensitivity and compassion stamped on it. But that's just me. I'm not one for candlelit dinners. ;)

Right on. And that you both feel secure enough in your marriage that you can discuss this openly and without fear. In business I always say good contracts preserve good relationships. Everyone knows what they agreed to and everyone has a plan if something goes wrong. The same can apply to marriage (although if you asked me about this five years ago I would have been horrified!).

All the same, I would get it looked at an attorney who is acting as an attorney, not your friend. Just so you know you did the whole thing right.

Storm Bride

01-04-2006, 10:25 AM

...Lots of bitterness but also lots of appreciation for being free of a bad situation, and also a lot of women who are proud of themselves for keeping their lives together and supporting themselves after becoming single moms. It doesn't have to end badly (though the transition can be horrible).
I was only an "official" single mom for a year. I wouldn't have traded it for anything. It was lightyears easier than dragging around my ex. I may have even kept the single mom life, if I hadn't a) desperately wanted more kids, and b) met a really, really wonderful man, who gave up his whole life to move 3000 miles to another country for me and my son.

mamawanabe

01-04-2006, 11:22 AM

However, the stats don't always tell the whole story, either. I filed for divorce. My ex would have been quite happy to stay married to me forever. Why not? I was the one killing myself to bring home a paycheque (my health at the end can't even be described). I was the one losing babies because he was doing drugs behind my back. I was the one cooking, cleaning, and doing 100% of the child care. I was the one paying the bills...both by earning the money and taking care of the paperwork. I was the one doing the grocery shopping, even though he was the one with the driver's license. I filed...he ended it. He probably didn't realize how bad it was...he was fed, sheltered and cleaned up after...what was so bad about it...if you were him? The paperwork shows none of that. It shows a divorce based on one year of separation...period.

Yea, my mom was the one who actually filed for divorce. That would be a year after my dad left her. Women do file more divorce papers, just like wives as opposed to their dh's are the more likely to fill out and mail in the joint tax forms, write and mail bills, sign and send out christmas cards.

meowee

01-06-2006, 11:53 PM

from the nytimes article:

"and now I had to use that money to pay bills I'd never seen before:"

that's me; I haven't seen a bill since 1995. I haven't written a check in almost as long. When I did have to write a check after a few years of not doing so I couldn't remember how to. I stared at all the blanks wondering what I was supposed to do.

That article is very touching. But I avoided one mistake that lady made: I learned by being my father's daughter never to marry an alcoholic.

Maybe the husband and new wife will get eaten by sharks on their next trip to Cancun?

bethwl

01-07-2006, 12:54 AM

Some have pointed out that it's difficult to support two households on one paycheck, and that's true, but I think the issue here is making sure that BOTH new households are living in equally reduced circumstances. As the OP mentioned, Ann Crittenden's The Price of Motherhood is a great book to read about this issue. It is well-researched and has extensive footnotes. The situation to be avoided is one in which the woman who shelved her career to sah is not left dirt-poor and scraping by (even with support from the ex) and the ex's standard of living actually improves or remains the same.

Serial marriers aside, I think marrying a divorced man was probably a good defense against divorce for me, because dh is so determined to not go through that again (and, relatively, speaking his divorce was a cakewalk--no kids, no house. the most expensive thing they owned was his professional musician wife's $90K violin, which he of course let her keep).

mamajama

01-07-2006, 01:18 AM

I'm lucky to be living in Canada. I was a single SAHM for a few years. After my kids' dad and I split up, I went on welfare, found subsidised housing, and worked at putting the broken peices of myself back together. My income is still wayyyy lower than his. But somehow our quality of life is better. Quality of life has a lot to do with values I think. In canada we have great daycare subsidies and the government handles taking the ex. to court if he doesn't cough up child-support (as was the case with us). I no longer stay at home. But even the few years I did, set me back really far in my ability to be self-sufficient. I was astounded at how helpless I felt. And I've always been a pretty strong and independent woman.
Time flies. I suddenly realized it had been years since I'd had a job and years since I'd been in school. And I was suddenly faced with doing either or both.

I would do things differently the next time around (if there is a next time). Not because I'm cynical, I'm not anymore as I've done a lot of healing work. But because I'm smarter now. I know first-hand how a person can change and blindside another, and I'm not willing to risk my security and hinge too many expectations on another person ever again. It is simply not worth the risk. Not a sound investment. I will always make sure I have the ability to be self sufficient. I will always have a security system in place. And I will always have my eyes wide open even in the throes of love and romance.

MommyMine

01-07-2006, 10:26 PM

we are talking about mitigating the reality that my standard of living will be DRASTICALLY less than his standard of living if we spilt assets 50 50.

The reality is BOTH your standards of living will be dramatically different as well as your lifestyles and frankly the amount of time and way you parent will be different if you split.

For example your dh will have to start to co-parent (as in both parent as much where as now you proboly do more and he does less) in regards to things he may now let you handle like say doctors visits and school confrences, maybe you do those now, when you are split he will have to take time off work to do those since he and you will no longer have identical input on them. He will have to manage full time care without any assistance on his visitation time and that will mean arranging for childcare and leaving work early to get the kids from care.

Neither of your lives will stay anything like the same. Money is not even the tip of the iceberg.

And that doesn't even touch on issues from one or both of you getting remarried.

CerridwenLorelei

01-08-2006, 01:21 AM

"How to hide money from your husband-the best kept secret of happy marriage"
There are some who put a nest egg away without telling their dhs and some who do with telling. Its an interesting book

"I don't think sahm's should sock away money under the mattress" This made me :lol because it made me think of the book.
Not under the mattress but a piggy bank and mason jar....

I agree you never know. Last of November I went and talked to a divorce attorney myself. Dh and I will be married 14 yrs in March and together 15 in September of this year. But I was at the point where I was ready to walk away and not look back for a bit.
I knew the $$ aspect was bleak if we split but after talking to the atty I found out it was twice as bleak as what I thought.,,,

Right now we are doing much better and may weather storm yet.
I know my SIL said years 13 and 14 were the roughest for them. They will be together 35 yrs this year so I have hope ....

mamawanabe

01-08-2006, 11:27 AM

The reality is BOTH your standards of living will be dramatically different as well as your lifestyles and frankly the amount of time and way you parent will be different if you split.

Yes divorce will take a finacial and career toll on both parties. However, the complaint isn't the the sahm's post-divorce finacial outlook will be drasically different than her pre-divorce finacial outlook, but that, if they split assests 50-50, it will be drasically different than her X's post-divorce finacial outlook. She has been out of the workforce 5-10 (or more) years, crucial earning years that she simply can't make up for.

Case in point - my parents. My mom fared pretty well after the divorce because she had us young and then went back to school and got a teaching degree; she was employed when her and my dad split after 26 years of marriage. They split assets 50-50. Today, my dad makes twice as much money as her (he is a teacher too) because those fifteen years she was home with us, he was getting percentaged raises. He has paid off his house and can reture with a large state pension and ss check in 9 years. My mom makes half what he makes, owes at least another 15 years on her hourse and will retire in her 70s with a MUCH smaller pension and ss check than my dad. She has enough and everything is fine - but many women are not as fortunate as my mom because they get divorced without a completed education and without having several years in the workforce right before the divorce.

MommyMine

01-08-2006, 11:41 AM

And if you aren't a sahm and get divorced you will probobly also have a career hit because chances are you were still the parent who had to leave early and take time off for sick kids and miss on non-school days BUT you won't be as likely to get alimony (fat chance!) and you probobly won't get any of his retirment savings and you will get less CS.

It isn't that I don't understand what you are saying...it is just that I think the idea that you can find any way to make your choice less risky is sort of bogus. I think that casting your lot with any person and making kids with them is creating a danger and nothing can change that.

Get a post nup, if it makes you feel better.

Frankly I think the bigger fear in being a SAHM and divorce is the emotional not financial realities of getting a job and finding yourself alone in the job of nurturing a child/children without someone to nurture you the nurturer. Even a husband who doesn't do much is doing something in being there for you - an adult to share the emotional load with.

My mother was independently wealthy and when she and my dad split she had all the money she needed to sahm or go back to work or do whatever. I can tell you that having money didn't make it easier. She cried for ten years- every.single.day.

Children are sacrafice. There is no way around that. Both of you are making a sacrafice, he is sacraficing time in order to work and pay for you to stay home, you are sacraficing your career. There is no way around it- there is no way to have kids and not sacrafice anything. There is no security. Your heart has left your body and walks around out there without you. I think it is more important to deal with that and work on your marriage and do things to deal with what is than to create pretend safety nets. Because honestly they really won't save you.

SAHM or working moms are all at risk- dads are too.

zonapellucida

01-09-2006, 10:52 AM

"Ad if you do get divorced and you end up financially well while your dh is left so financially crippled he can't start over and move on your kids will notice that and they will take the side of the parent who is suffering. Divorce leaves no "right" answers and nothing is fair. It is all a lot of bad options and crappy choices.
Even if we are financially poor later my kids will be richin spirit for my staying home today. Today I make the choice to stay home-in an insecure world. I do it because it is the right thing for my family and my children."

missed the quotee but I agree.

The aarp article was interesting. I have gained through this that it is our repsonsiblity to be doing something wiht our brain rather than just raising children (LMAO-just raising children :lol) Anyway, I got finished my BS while married, after four kids. Graduate of 1999 and did a teaching fellowship in 2000. It is now 2006--three kids later and I have NOTHING. And it is my own fault. Great if you have enough to write a prenupt ect. when you have something to worry about splitting. :blah :blah :blah

fuller2

01-09-2006, 11:14 PM

I'm thinking about dating now but I gotta tell ya, the fact that something that can be so lighthearted and fun, or even romantic and beautiful, can end up as ugly and life-destroying as a divorce or even the breakup of a serious LTR, gives me pause. I've talked to a couple of guys and they're all like dinner! and conversation! and whatever...I just look at them and think, Months of weeping, being one paycheck away from disaster, abandonment when I need them most (my ex asked me for a divorce the same day I found out I was pregnant)--and I think, wow, is this really worth it? Giving up my precious few hours of free time a week for some guy on the off-chance I'll find Loverly Love? Infatuation lasts about a year and that's it, and you have no idea what they're going to be like when that's over. It's really hard.

And I echo the post above about single momhood making you feel really great in a lot of ways. I think now, If I could be a SAHM for a while, would I do it? and I just don't know if I would. My ex has done a ton of caring for our son which makes a big difference though--if he hadn't done that and ds would have had to be in day care full-time through all this I would probably think otherwise.

mollyeilis

02-06-2006, 01:30 PM

Interesting thread. Especially so b/c I just had a series of really VERY bad dreams, all involving my husband, and when I woke up I told him we needed to do a post-nup agreement.

Right now I'm frightening him with the phrase "3/4 of your income, PLUS child support, dude"...

Back while engaged he had an episode where he moved out of our apartment, lock stock and barrel, while I was at work. UGLY. Planned to move, return the moving van, then be at the apartment when I got home, but I was at work getting sicker and sicker in my stomach (I knew something weird was happening but honestly had no idea WHAT it was) and I came home early, so he cleared out and left a note. :angry

3 days later I called (to ask him to not just disappear from my life) and he realized that he didn't want to leave. Stayed living apart, months of therapy, then couples counseling, and we got married the year after our originally planned wedding.

And through the entire time, he helped to support me. He was making *just* a bit more than me, but we were in an apartment that was 1K/month alone, and I couldn't afford it but refused to ruin my rental history (my credit history is destroyed, my rental history is all I've got!) so he paid half the rent, half the utilities, most of the phone, half the Dish...and so on. He even helped with my car payment when I needed it.

He has a track record of making sure I was taken care of. While he had to live with his mom. Which, considering she sided with me and thought he was an idiot, was punishment enough for leaving the way he did. :mischief

But still, I want something in writing. I don't feel scared to be a SAHM; I was self-employed before, and all I'd have to do would be get my chiro license back (I gave it up before I met DH) and I'd be back in business. So I'm not afraid of the time off of work and so on...and I'm sure my dad would love for me and DS to come live with him, and he'd likely help financially with my license and so on.

But I wouldn't WANT to do that, I would want to continue the life I have with my little guy, to be home with him, teaching him, and so on.

Therefore, 3/4 income plus child support. ;)

********
The other thing I really need in writing is the way we live our lives.

While in chiro school, a marriage broke up, and the woman, who never wanted to live naturally but was convinced to do so by her husband, took the kids back home and *had them completely vaccinated in ONE visit*, after never having one vax. Now, even someone who is cool with vaxes could agree that that's a BIT much to do to a body. Next time I saw the kids they were sallow and their hair was falling out...they'd been utterly healthy, brimming with vitality, before that. (I'm sure the divorce had something to do wiht it along with the assault to the immune system).

Well that sort of thing horrifies me. We met and married partially based on how we live our lives (he faced a 6 months to live prognosis and fought back with alternative methods ONLY and won!), but hubby agrees he's gotten stronger into natural living b/c of me. And I fear if we become contentious that he might decide that natural living is the enemy...he swears he wouldn't, but man, I saw those kids. :(

I don't know if THAT sort of thing (Molly will remain reasonable and will have sole health care decisions, Molly will homeschool or unschool (or even school) the kids based on the kids' best interests, etc etc etc) can be put into a legal document, but I want to try!

*********
My other thought on this is about my MIL. She's Korean, and married a Navy man she met first during WW2 and next during Korean War-time. He was never the most stable or nice guy, and she knew it. She stayed married to him, but stashed money aside.

Well, now she's approaching 70 and he's approaching 80, and just 2 years ago she FINALLY became a US citizen. She'd kept her Korean passport all these years so she could make a quick getaway. She kept (and still keeps) some $50,000 in CASH in her place, for such a getaway.

She never needed it, but had it. Now she's a citizen (but of course it's easier to travel nowadays, patriot act aside) and they've finally settled down. It helps that he retired at last and they are actually living in the same state, so she knows where he is and who he's seeing.

Would I want to live in such a marriage? don't think so. BUT it's worked for them, they are together and often happy (she yells a lot, but that's just her personality), and that cash didn't cause anything to happen...

I don't know how she'd feel if I were stashing cash away, though... :lol