A Standing Ovation for Kathleen Huggins: This is FUNNY!

[SoHappy]

Kathleen Huggins, author of "The Nursing Mother's Companion", is a friend and neighbor of mine. This story is way too funny.

Kathleen was at a local hospital waiting for an appointment with her doctor. She was kept waiting a very very very long time. The whole time, she had to stare at a giant poster for a formula company. She was really upset about it. Here she was in a professional health care establishment, in a Women's Health and Breast Care (or some such named) section, and they are pushing formula, even though the risk of breast cancer is reduced by nursing.

She saw the doctor, then on her way out got an urge and snuck the poster off the wall and took it with her.

Somebody saw her do it. And since they happened to overhear where she was headed next, the Head Honcho of the hospital tracked her down and called her at her next appointment! He told her she was in possession of stolen property and needed to return it. She said, basically, "That thing's an insult to your hospital and your patients and you should be ashamed." So he told her he was going to call the police! So here she was, driving around, running her errands with one eye on the rear view mirror, worried that she was going to get arrested for having a poster in her trunk! She said the man was totally ticked off and very serious in tone and manner.

Since this all started in her doctor's office, the next time she called about an appointment the secretary mentioned the poster to her, saying Mr. Big was still very upset and wanted her to bring it back when she came in. She replied, "Well, if he mentions it again, tell him I agree that I should be arrested, and that he SHOULD call the police. I would love to explain this to the press, who, by the way, I would contact without hesitation."

WooHoo, way to get feisty!
So I think this episode is over, but if it's not, I am gonna be the first one to give info to the press about the WHO code and the ethics of advertising formula in a health care environment. And of course, I promised to visit her in jail, tee-hee.

[velveeta]

I will bake her a cake with a file inside for when she goes to jail! :eek

She is one gutsy, strong, WONDERFUL mama!

I *love* this! :love Did they give her an appointment? I can't wait to hear what happens next!

Jean

[Hannah's Mom]

:thumb

[Faith]

I can't inagine why the guy would care SO much!

Maybe this is too conspiracy theory, but do you think the formula company maybe paid him to advertise in his office?

That is funny, though! Tell her way to go!!:thumb

[Hannah's Mom]

Maybe this is too conspiracy theory, but do you think the formula company maybe paid him to advertise in his office?

That was my first thought, too.

[Clarity]

I would pay for a pro-BF poster to replace it...tell him that! Mr. WHO-code violater.

[Tanibani]

This is a GREAT story. Thanks for posting it.

As far as being "paid" to put that poster up... yeah well, you should read MILK, MONEY & MADNESS (is that the title?). Basically formula companies have DESIGNED (donated their architectural services) hospital maternity wards (where babies are kept separate from mother... which happens to sabotage the BFing relationship from the beginning).

They also give "free" supplies (note pads, etc...) to doctor offices (most pharmaceutical companies do that.)

I remember reading (memory is vague, it's been 3 yrs since I read that book) something about formula companies actually paying thousands of dollars (say, $5,000.) for the priviledge of getting the actual mailing lists of current OB patients, so they could directly mail formula to patients homes.

I got some formula in the mail. Couldn't imagine from whom... until I read that book.

it's horrible... all those sneaky WHO violators.

Tanya
Giancarlo - 3 in March - still BFing :) (and working on weaning)

[MysticHealerMom]

Cool story.

I would have thought those things were free? Supplied by the formula company...

"hey, just go get another one out of the closet"

Maybe they were worried she'd write something "nasty" on it and post it somewhere, but it had their name stamped on it? "Property of Moronic Hospital Clinic".

Too silly.

Way to go Kathleen!! :thumb

[chicklet]

our local hospitals give out cute little diaper bags filled with formula samples when you deliver there. and my OB office does give out the names of expectant mothers to the formula companies to mail samples to your house - i know this because the office spelled my name wrong on their files and thats how it was spelled on the box of formula.

its so sad that sometimes moms who don't really know about the benefits of nursing get swayed by the big bad wolf - formula mfrs.

i would LOVE to see a pro-breastfeeding poster in my OB/GYN office with the photo from the may/june 2000 issue of mothering - i LOOOOVe:love that photo.

well, if kathleen gets any heat from this guy, we can always have a sit-in, or better yet a nurse-in!:rotflmao

[flminivanmama]

good for her!

[mom2Ava]

I think she had good intentions, but stealing is not the way to get your point across. I think this woman should be ashamed of herself, but that's just me.

Edited to add: What if the poster was about breastfeeding and someone ripped it down because they think breastfeeding is gross? Is it okay to steal what we don't like?

Edited again to add: I realize this isn't a popular opinion around here. I am very pro-breastfeeding, but I don't believe stealing is the answer.

[SoHappy]

What if the poster was about breastfeeding and someone ripped it down because they think
breastfeeding is gross? Is it okay to steal what we don't like?

Breastfeeding doesn't violate the World Health Organization's code of ethics. Health care facilities shouldn't be advertising formula. In fact, our county breastfeeding coalition has been asking this hospital to comply for years. As a health care professional herself, she was appalled. The poster has no monetary value and is not irreplaceable. The reps have a trunkful of them.

So, perhaps it was impolite, but I'm quite certain there is a greater good to consider here, and she has my full support.

[kater07]

WTG, Kathleen! I would totally have cheered her on. Maybe you two can get together and design a poster to put in it's place or order a probreastfeeding one from somewhere to replace the offensive one.

BTW, does anyone have the WHO's statement/policy handy? I'd like to read it as I am pretty sick of my Dr.'s office. The first thing they ALWAYS ask is if I am formula feeding and there's always a bunch of formula just sitting on the counters for the taking. I'd like to know if they too are in violation.

They also gave me the free formula gift pack AFTER I'd already said we are exclusively BFing.

Thanks!

[mom2Ava]

Originally posted by SoHappy


Breastfeeding doesn't violate the World Health Organization's code of ethics. Health care facilities shouldn't be advertising formula. In fact, our county breastfeeding coalition has been asking this hospital to comply for years. As a health care professional herself, she was appalled. The poster has no monetary value and is not irreplaceable. The reps have a trunkful of them.

So, perhaps it was impolite, but I'm quite certain there is a greater good to consider here, and she has my full support.

But it is unethical to steal!

I'm appalled by fried food, but I don't go around ripping down posters for McDonalds or Wendy's. I don't steal from them because I don't like them. I don't see how stealing a poster can do ANY good at all.

[somemama]

The end justifies the means.

Advertising formula is more unethical than stealing that same advertising, IMHO.

[Momtwice]

I think the KNOWN health consequences of formula feeding, which happen in greater numbers when moms are exposed to formula ads and samples (studies show this exposure increases artificial feeding rates) are a much greater evil than stealing the poster. Whatever happened to FIRST DO NO HARM!?!?!

I think increasing a child's risks of SIDS, cancer, diabetes, RSV, reflux, gastrointestinal infections, ear infections, respiratory infections including pneumonia; diarrhea, colitis, etc. is a much greater evil than stealing the poster. (Not to mention increasing the mother's risk of post-birth hemorrage, endometrial cancer, breast cancer, uterine cancer, cervical cancer, osteoporosis, depression, and urinary tract infections.)

(For sources see http://www.promom.org and click on 101 reasons to breastfeed, or see http://www.askdrsears.com
)


It is well known that the formula companies are about as ethical as the tobacco companies. And they have VERY deep pockets. They can afford another poster.

Go Kathleen!

[mom2Ava]

I still don't see how stealing one poster out of a doctor's office will stop even one person from giving their baby formula. If someone doesn't want to breastfeed, they're not going to breastfeed whether they see a poster or not.

Why couldn't she have given the doctor a breastfeeding poster to put up? I don't see why she felt she could go into someone's office and steal something. Can I go in her home and steal something?

[Momtwice]

But studies show that ads DO influence mothers in their infant feeding decisions. (Formula companies KNOW this otherwise they wouldn't spend the money printing the posters! ) Especially if they are in a doctor's office, a doctor that they TRUST to give good medical advice.

The studies I have read about say that the ads and samples ESPECIALLY influence those moms who have not yet DECIDED how to feed. These posters are NOT innocent.

[Momtwice]

WHO Code info for the mom above who asked:

The full name is "the International Code of Marketing of Breast Milk Substitutes". It is a joint statement and recommendations from the World Health Organization (WHO) and the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF)
http://www.ibfan.org/english/resource/who/fullcode.html
These two groups recommend these practices for ALL countries. The Code is law in many countries, but not the USA.

The American Academy of Pediatrics breastfeeding recommendations may also help:
http://www.aap.org/policy/re9729.html

For more info about formula companies and the pediatricians they bribe (as pediatrician Dr. Jack Newman describes the trips and the gifts) see the article "Formula for Disaster" by Katie Allison Granju. Last I checked it was at breastfeeding.com and
salon.com

[flminivanmama]

first of all yes the posters do make a difference. if advertising didn't work no one would do it...
second having the poster up says that this doctor endorses and supports the use of formula.
third as it has been started above this poster in a drs office does violate the WHO code

[Momtwice]

Here are some more links about advertising formula, formula samples, the WHO Code and pediatricians and breastfeeding.
http://www.onlinece.net/courses.asp?course=156&action=view

http://www.promom.org/bf_info/why_low.htm

http://www.aap.org/research/ps13.htm


This last article is frustrating...all about how the AAP recommends that pediatricians do NOT advertise formula or give out samples, but not all peds. listen. :(

[Momtwice]

My last post before the kids and I go to bed:

1.there are great breastfeeding posters at
http://www.infactcanada.ca

2.When Rosa Parks sat down in the white section of that bus, she was breaking the law. That doesn't mean segregation was right just because it was legal.

[mom2Ava]

I'm sorry, but no one has the right to steal from others. Is that what she's going to teach her children? If you don't agree with a poster, rip it down and steal it? Like I said, can I go into her home and steal things from her?

Edited to add: I'm kind of offended you would compare stealing a poster to Rosa Parks. I highly doubt she went around stealing from white people to make her point. Stealing is stealing. It's wrong no matter how you look at it. This woman could have done many positive things to make her point (giving the office a bfing poster) but she took the low road. I don't see how someone could say "way to go" to a thief.

[somemama]

Kathleen Huggins not only writes books about nursing, she "puts her money where her mouth is," so to speak. I applaud having the kind of conviction that would drive someone to steal a formula poster.

Now, perhaps, there would have been better ways to handle it--writing letters, etc. But, I still admire the conviction behind her act.

[flminivanmama]

Originally posted by mom2Ava
This woman could have done many positive things to make her point

this woman DOES do many positive things to make her point. Maybe you should read one of her books? or try to attend a conference she's lecturing at? Unfortunatly those things often do not counteract the effects of one small poster in a health care providers office which implies that said HCP endorses and supports the use of formula. Believe me if the poster was not effective the WHO code would not have included advertising in its list of violations and additionally formula companies would not continue to produce them.

[Momtwice]

A poster above wrote:
"I'm kind of offended that you would compare stealing a poster to Rosa Parks. I highly doubt that she went around stealing from white people to make her point."

I'm not sure I understand your point...and you don't have to agree with me, healthy debate is a good thing...but the fact is that in the eyes of the law, Rosa Parks was stealing in a way, stealing the seat in the front of the bus from the white people the seat "belonged to" in the eyes of the law. According to the law, she was supposed to sit on the back of the bus or stand if all those seats were full. THE LAW WAS WRONG. SEGREGATION WAS EVIL. Advertising formula is evil. I admire people in certain cases who break laws for a greater good. This case is one of those and I admire Kathleen Huggins just as I admire Rosa Parks. I admire their courage for standing up for the basic human rights they believe in, whether it is equal right to sit down on a bus when you are tired, or equal right to unbiased, accurate and HEALTHY information from a medical care provider who has taken a VOW to "FIRST DO NO HARM."

And the WHO Code is a law in many countries, because many other governments recognize that fact that advertising formula to the public is so wrong and dangerous to babies' health it SHOULD be illegal. If Kathleen had taken down this poster in Mexico, Brazil, or India (according to the WABA site) she would be UPHOLDING the law instead of breaking it.

[glh]

This thread made me think of the beautiful framed pictures that are hung on the wall as you walk into the maternity ward where I had all of my children. They are all of nursing mothers and babies. It makes me wonder what the message to everyone who walked into that ward would be if they had instead hung up those formula posters.

As for the stealing issue, I look at it from the point of view that she took something down that never should have been there in the first place. We are all bombarded enough as it is with formula ads, just look in any mainstream parent magazine. Which btw, I'm sure the doctor had plenty of in his waiting room.

Also, slightly OT, but I noticed in a recent formula ad for the new abm with the added ingredients for brain development (dhea?) that the ad did not mention that bf is recommended or best anywhere in the ad. All the other ads have that (in as small letters as they can manage), so how did they get away with that?

[mom2Ava]

Will someone please answer this: Is it okay for someone to rip down and steal a breastfeeding poster in a doctor's office because they think breastfeeding is gross?

[glh]

I'm sure someone else can answer this better than I can, but here goes. A doctor should not be promoting formula, that is according to the American Academy of Pediatrics. No, someone should not tear down a bf poster because they think it is gross, that is like comparing apples to oranges. One involves the doctor's ethics and money or favors he received from a formula company, the other is just someone's ignorant opinion. Help me out here everyone!

[mom2Ava]

Then why didn't she **talk** to the doctor before she ripped it down?? Why didn't she **ASK** him to take it down?? That's what a normal person would do. But no. She stole it. When they asked her to give it back, she said no. That's pathetic. This woman sounds like a nutcase. She is doing harm to the breastfeeding community. It makes us all look like psychos with breasts who go around ripping down posters and acting like idiots. It makes me mad!

[SoHappy]

mom2ava, you must've missed the part of my post that says our county Breastfeeding Coalition has been asking this hospital to comply with the WHO Code for years. So, many many people have been asking them formally and quite politely to refrain from advertising. It hasn't worked! They blow us off. They'd rather continue courting the formula companies (and accepting the free rounds of golf, staff lunches, etc.)

As far as making the breastfeeding community look bad, are you concerned at all that the hospital is making the entire health care community look bad?

To get a feel for this "nutcase", imagine that you're sitting in a doctor's office for a few hours while waiting to learn more results about your breast cancer. You know that breastfeeding reduces the risks of breast cancer. You don't want other women to go through what you're going through. You're one of the nation's leading breastfeeding advocates, you know the recommendations of leading health organizations regarding marketing abm, you and others have repeatedly asked the hospital to stop violating the code, and you're staring at that poster.

Does removing it make you a "nutcase" or an activist?

[Quirky]

I don't think it's "stealing" to remove something that is of no positive value to anyone (except the formula company's bottom line). Advertising abm in a doctor's office is just as bad as advertising cigarettes in a doctor's office. would it be wrong to take down a cigarette ad in a clinic for lung cancer and asthma patients? I don't think so.

What I will be interested to see is if the doctor has the balls to replace the ad. That will truly show he puts the abm company's interests above those of women and children.

[mom2Ava]

steal

To take (the property of another) without right or permission.
To get or effect surreptitiously or artfully: steal a kiss; stole the ball from an opponent.
To move, carry, or place surreptitiously.
To draw attention unexpectedly in (an entertainment), especially by being the outstanding performer: The magician's assistant stole the show with her comic antics.
Baseball. To advance safely to (another base) during the delivery of a pitch, without the aid of a base hit, walk, passed ball, or wild pitch.



If it's not your's to take, don't take it. We learned that in pre-school.

[Zina]

I think this is a case of civil disobedience rather than common theft. I applaud her for it. I think she is setting a fine example for her children--especially if she has daughters. Letters are good. Talking is good. Advocating is good. But civil disobedience is often neccesary to bring about change. She chose non-violent civil disobedience and if she is insane, I hope I have the courage and conviction to go nuts too!

[mom2Ava]

You don't fight an unethical company by being unethical. Being a hypocrite isn't going to get you anywhere. Breastfeeding advocates have gotten a bad rap because of people like her. Advocate your cause, but you don't have to lie, cheat, and steal to make your point. How are you any better than formula companies? If you want to fight them, RISE ABOVE THEM! Don't sink to their level!

[somemama]

Originally posted by mom2Ava
You don't fight an unethical company by being unethical.

It wasn't unethical of her to take the poster. Illegal, yes. Unethical, no.

[mom2Ava]

stealing is unethical. She stole the poster.

[flminivanmama]

she removed a poster that was in clear violation of the WHO code.

[Quirky]

i think this thread is about at the point where we should agree to disagree.....:rolleyes: (before the mods make us all take a timeout :D )

[Xenogenesis]

The Compleat Mother magazine has some really awesome breastfeeding posters. I didn't notice them on the website though.

The last hospital I was at had some really nice breastfeeding posters on their walls, but the nurses were not very helpful or friendly with the process. :shake

[SagMom]

Aw shoot! She *stole* the stupid poster, okay? :D

Good for her! Sign me up for the nurse-in...tell me where to send bail money...WTG!

It sure got their attention, didn't it?

Now I think the poster should be returned to it's original spot, after being plastered over with pro-breastfeeding facts and information.

[Zina]

Originally posted by Joan
Now I think the poster should be returned to it's original spot, after being plastered over with pro-breastfeeding facts and information.

Then they can add vandalism to her rap sheet! This woman is a menace to (formula-happy) society!

[mom2Ava]

Answer me this: If she's so militant that she just had to rip down a poster, why did she go back there?? Why didn't she go somewhere else that doesn't put up formula posters? If someone was threatening to call the cops on me, I wouldn't go back there.

[Clarity]

I have been hesitant to say this, but most people here see it differently from you. Breaking the law in keeping wiht your moral convictions has a long history. You disagree with that practice. Your extreme insistance on continuing the argument makes me wonder if you're a troll. Perhaps not, but you just need to be kindly told that we can agree to disagree, and I would ask people to no longer engage you on the topic.

[SoHappy]

My last comment, a FYI in response to mom2ava's question. Then I will be sitting quietly, hoping they come up with a "I'm biting my tongue" smiley.

This is a very small town. Breast cancer patients don't exactly have a choice about where they get their diagnostic work done, especially if they have an insurance plan. Perhaps if we had more choices and the doctors had some competition to worry about, they would've removed the poster themselves. But don't worry, she is no longer under their care. She has opted to drive 4 hours north instead.

Done.
Ciao.

[glh]

Clarity, I was wondering exactly the same thing myself.

[mom2Ava]

Funny you should bring up extremes. This woman went to extremes by stealing a poster. I'm going to extremes to show that this woman did a stupid, childish thing. It was said that it's okay to go to extremes when it's something you believe in. I believe in morals and ethics, even when advocating. She's a hero, but I'm a troll. Go figure.

That said, I won't post here again. Different opinions aren't welcome here and neither am I. Have a nice day.

[Clarity]

I think you just need to lurk a little more and get the feel for how we handle disagreements...there are a lot of them. I would hope to think if you're really interested in participating in the commuity, that there tons of other issues on which we agree! We also feel more comfortable arguing with people once we've gotten to know them better...please feel free to share some of your othering parenting issues on our other threads so we can get to know you.

[abimommy]

I dont think we should automatically categorize someone as a troll simply because they disagree in one thread. Having read other posts by mom2ava I dont think she is a troll she just disagrees about the stealing thing..

While it is a bit of a moral dilema, knowing what I do about formula companies and their marketing methods, particularly in third world countries, I have no problem with someone running off with a formula poster. Maybe a little reading on the nestle boycott...

I agree with the others, the Dr was probably being paid to have that poster up and I find that horrid!! Some Drs do receive cutbacks from formula companies and this needs to be addressed and dealt with. While her actions may have been a little childish, she is a longtime breastfeeding advocate and has helped countless women bf successfully through her work.

I dont know what sort of legal action can be taken to force a hospital to support the WHO code as the US hasn't signed the WHO code last I knew...

It may have been immature but being an immature person I think it is kind of funny...

[TigerTail]

From Usenet:
'The content of a
"troll" posting generally falls into several areas. It may
consist of an
apparently foolish contradiction of common knowledge, a
deliberately
offensive insult to the readers of a newsgroup, or a broad
request for
trivial follow-up postings.
There are three reasons why people troll newsgroups:

People post such messages to get attention, to disrupt
newsgroups, and
simply to make trouble.
Career trollers tend for the latter two whilst the former is
the mark of the
clueless newbie and should be ignored.'

abimommy, i gotta respectfully disagree; i've seen her (or him) in 'diapering'. clueless newbie or not, i smell troll. was this thread hijacked, or not? someone who simply disagrees would make their point and not harp on it. shoo, trolls!

suse

[Kimber]

Hi all,

I usually lurk here, and participate over in Diapers, but I've been following this thread, and I think it was trolled too.
The funny thing is, there was a thread on diapering that seemed to have attracted a possible troll. Can you guess who?

BTW Way to go Kathleen!!!:banana

(back to lurking)

[rwikene]

a formula ad in a cancer clinic:eek Good for her!!!! She has more guts than I do, but good for her!!!!!

:thumb

[rwikene]

oh yeah, and thankfully my doc is an ND and all of his kids were bf for 2+ years....no formula ads in his office!!!!!

I think any mama who is having a particularly hard day nursing would consider formula if it was readily available....consider, not necessarily act on it....

I know I did (considered) once or twice...but no formula for my babe. I am now more educated about the evils of ABM but not everyone is...:(

[Cynthia Mosher]

Abimommy is right. Please do not label posters as trolls. If you are suspicious about a person's posting intentions you may contact us and let us know so we can look into it. But on the boards let's try to assume the best and respect everyone, including Kathleen.

[jeca]

maybe she wasn't a troll but her constant debate over something so mundane mad her very trollish. And IMO someone who is serious about coming to forumes for support doesn't quit coming at the first sign of disagreement or bad blood.

As for Kathleen Huggins. I see nothing wrong with what she did. If it's that big of a deal I'm sure she would replace the damn poster with a more suitable one.

[Meiri]

Actually the person who left here in a huff over this thread has brought it up at another site to "discuss" it, in a more "mixed" environment IYKWIM.

I figure that says enough and we should leave it at that.

I personally think discussions at one site should stay there, and if the same subject comes up elsewhere, then the two discussions should remain seperate..........but that's just me.:love

How's Kathleen doing BTW? Still got the garbage in her trunk?;)

[TigerTail]

Official apologies to the administration; I should've just pm'd a moderator (like when we had that guy a few years ago getting pervy pretending under various user names to be a mom nursing a twelve yr old, remember?)... altho' that just kinda struck me as sad & lonely, not 'official' trolldom. I felt sorry for him (and pity is not the usual emotion I feel for the specie. Energy leeches- ugh!)

Suse

[clevah girl]

I want to say that I agree with mom2ava. I am not a troll, either. I am a mother, a breastfeeding advocate, and do volunteer work with an organization that helps breastfeeding mothers. I am quite familiar with the unethical and sneaky marketing tactics of formula companies. I have read Milk, Money, and Madness, The Politics of Breastfeeding, and many other books about breastfeeding advocacy. I understand the WHO code.

That being said, I think, if this story is true, that what Ms. Huggins did was immature and unproductive. It was stealing. Comparing her action to that of Rosa Parks is laughable. Rosa Parks was practicing civil disobeidiance. She broke an unjust law. I am assuming that Kathleen Huggins does not believe that laws prohibiting theft are unjust. Comparing Rosa Parks' brave act to this little temper tantrum just doesn't fly with me. I can't imagine that she has changed the policy about posters at the clinic. I would wager that she has pissed them off and they may put up twice as many posters just to spite her now. I am quite certain that Ross or Mead Johnson will be happy to provide more.

Right or wrong, the clinic was doing nothing illegal by displaying that poster. The World Health Organization is not a governing body in the U.S. The Code is not law here.

I realize that Kathleen Huggins has probably done some real advocacy. This just isn't an example of it, IMO.

[Viola]

She was fed up and upset, and did something that a lot of us would like to do because she reached a breaking point. I think it was amusing, and even if it wasn't the "right" thing to do, I'm not going to sit in judgment of her. I can understand that there are those who don't like what she did, and everyone is free to state their opinions. However, I find the moral outraged expressed by the one poster to be out of line with the degree of the wrongdoing. This leads to the belief that ripping down a poster is equivalent to breaking into someone's home to steal, and I find that kind of thinking to be dangerous. I also do think that what Kathleen Huggins did could fall under the guise of civil disobedience if she believed she was doing something for higher moral purpose. It may not be right in the eyes of the law, but people have different beliefs as to what is right and wrong, and we're not necessarily going to agree that what Kathleen Huggins did was wrong (or right), no matter how it is put to us.

During the last election, Nevada had an initiative on the ballot to make gay marriages illegal, and many of my neighbors had signs in support of this measure. I found these signs insulting on several levels (they said protect marriage and showed a stylized diamond ring), and I was tempted to pull some of them up, but I didn't because ultimately I decided that was not a good way to respond. If I felt like abortion was wrong and I pulled down a poster for a family planning clinic that offered abortion services, I'd feel that I was doing something right even though I might be breaking a law.

On the subject of civil disobedience I have to say that Rosa Parks broke a law when she sat where she did on that bus. That it was an unjust law is a view shared by many people today, but people have different moral standards and not everyone would agree that it was unjust. To plenty of people at the time, what Rosa Parks did was wrong if for no other reason than she broke the law, and some people may think that there is no excuse for that. And other people didn't think there was a problem with that particular law, I'm sure. Sensibilities and moral standards have changed, and we now easily see that what she did was standing up for a higher moral purpose. What the cancer clinic was doing in displaying a formula poster is legal, certainly, but that doesn't mean it is morally ethical. I'm not comparing Huggins' actions to Parks' in intensity, but I think that their intent and reactions were similar. Given that I can make that comparison, I can then understand that there are those who would do the same type of comparison and say breaking the law is wrong no matter what. I acknowledge that.

The clinic personnel were perfectly within their rights to call the police. I would be surprised if the police or the courts thought this was an offense worth pursuing, however.

[Zina]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by clevah girl
[B] Rosa Parks was practicing civil disobeidiance. [QUOTE]

Kathleen Huggins was also practicing civil disobedience. This wasn't stealing for the sake of stealing--it's not like she took a box of tongue depressors and a prescription pad.

[clevah girl]

You can regard it as civil disobedience if you want, but it hardly compares to Rosa Park's actions, and I seriously doubt it did anything to promote breastfeeding advocacy.

I'm concerned about the overuse of antibiotics. Maybe the next time I'm at my doctor's office, I should rip down all the Zithromax calanders and steal all the Ceclor pens. That'll fix 'em!

[glh]

Anyone else feel like they are :bang ? I really think we are way off the original post and not getting anywhere by continuing this discussion.

[Meiri]

Yes, very much so.

[Dr.Worm]

Sorry, but even though what she was doing was for a good cause, it is still stealing. I mean, stealing isn't about what you take..it's the fact that you are taking something that doesn't belong to you. Ok, so she didn't go to the store with a big diaper bag and steal formula cans, but it is still stealing.

[rwikene]

ALRIGHT ALREADY!!!! so, we all agree that she *stole* the stupid poster....

that isn't what this thread was about..it was about Katherine standing up for something she believed in...period! It was about how the doctors should not have had the poster in their office to begin with, it was about how little support bfing moms get...

This was supposed to be a humorous story (at least I took it that way), but now has become an ethics debate....why????

[yoga]

Because everyone has a different sense of humor. What I find funny, another may find apalling or morally reprehensible. S/He has that right. As do I.

That said, it was funny to me. But, I agree she was stealing and that was wrong. The funniest part being that that man called her and asked her to bring it back. And that she clarified things before going back for another appointment.

She's got balls. Most thieves do.

(that's respect you're reading...:hippie )

[Quirky]

Originally posted by Chaka Falls


She's got balls. Most thieves do.

Shouldn't that be ovaries?:LOL

[Momtwice]

My thoughts exactly Jane :)

Or is it gonads?? don't gonads include both the male and female variety?

To paraphrase the David Bowie song Ziggy Stardust, "She was the nads!"

[somemama]

Originally posted by mom2Ava
stealing is unethical. She stole the poster.

Coming back in here late, but.....

stealing is always illegal, but not always unethical.

[kama'aina mama]

True. Just ask Jean Valjean!

[Viola]

warm up: La La La
clearing throat and taking breath
In my best Javert and Valjean impersonation:

Now bring me prisoner 24601, your time is up and your parole's begun. Do you know what that means?
Yes, it means I'm freeeee.
No! It means you get your yellow ticket of leave, you are a thief--
I stole a loaf of bread
You robbed a house!
I broke a window paaaane...My sister's child was close to death, we were starving--
And you'll starve again unless you learn the meaning of the law
I know the meaning of those 19 years, a slaaaave of the lawr.

And so on :) Not enough for a copyright violation.

Hmmm, maybe next time I'm in the OB's office I'll steal that Enfamil sign up sheet. I'm not a stranger to breaking the law--I took a pen home from my last job.