Feeling pessimistic about the culture I'm raising my kid in...

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I get so down sometimes with the culture in the US regarding family life, parenting and childhood. I don't feel like pointing out examples but, if you feel this way too, please share and tell me how you deal with it.

[johub]

I am having a real hard time with this right now.
I have both a teenager and three little ones, and I really am doing a 180 when it comes to my views on the negative influences culture has on our kids and family life.
I USED to be the non-sheltering type. I wanted to raise a kid who knew what was going on, and who I believed would have the skills to navigate life with some wisdom.
But I am starting to see things differently. I have even been thinking more and more about homeschooling, but the fact remains that I personally dont think I want to or would enjoy it. My primary motivation is (sadly) to keep my three precious children away from all the other kids and influences in this world.
I used to think that children who are raised in a "sheltered" way grow up to be entirely unprepared for the "real world" . Now I question that and wonder if perhaps children who are protected from negative outside influences more are more likely to reach a true maturity and in the end be MORE capable of dealing with the "real world" because they face it with true wisdom and self-knowing and not as innocents.
Or maybe there is some middle way. I dont know.
I am in a real bad place right now where it seems everythign I believed was "right" might very well have been "wrong" after all, so I guess I am not in a good position to answer this. I am likely being reactionary!
Joline

[marybethorama]

I am having a real hard time with this right now.
I have both a teenager and three little ones, and I really am doing a 180 when it comes to my views on the negative influences culture has on our kids and family life.
I USED to be the non-sheltering type. I wanted to raise a kid who knew what was going on, and who I believed would have the skills to navigate life with some wisdom.
But I am starting to see things differently. I have even been thinking more and more about homeschooling, but the fact remains that I personally dont think I want to or would enjoy it. My primary motivation is (sadly) to keep my three precious children away from all the other kids and influences in this world.
Joline

Hi Joline,

I don't have teens yet, so maybe I shouldn't be replying ;)

I don't homeschool and in many ways I'm not sheltering. But I have always followed my kids lead and never forced them into something they're not ready for. So far I've seen good results. My kids are still fairly young though.

I know some sheltered kids who are not the nicest kids. They are mean to other kids which is one thing that really pushes my buttons. They are not so much "ap"ed but they are raised fairly crunchy. I think doing ap stuff and parenting is much more important than lifestyle choices but that's just me.

I've seen bad parenting in all sorts of families. And maybe the results of it too.

[muse]

Well we dealt with it by leaving the US and moving to England. We preached a lot to people here about how awful US culture is for kids, how we feel so much better raising them in Europe, etc etc. But now, guess what, we miss America and will likely move back soon. :down

The way it will work for me will be to surround myself with a community of like minded people, steer well clear of mainstream US culture (no TV, shopping malls, etc) and make the most of the opportunities in US culture that we didn't appreciate enough at the time.

[velochic]

Well we dealt with it by leaving the US and moving to England. We preached a lot to people here about how awful US culture is for kids, how we feel so much better raising them in Europe, etc etc. But now, guess what, we miss America and will likely move back soon. :down

The way it will work for me will be to surround myself with a community of like minded people, steer well clear of mainstream US culture (no TV, shopping malls, etc) and make the most of the opportunities in US culture that we didn't appreciate enough at the time.

Your post made me step back and say, "HUH!?!" We recently moved back from Europe VERY RELUCTANTLY. I came back to the US kicking and screaming. The US culture is poison, but more than anything, kids are not taught to look at issues from all points of view and work is valued over family here. Europe has such a wonderful focus on children and family, opportunities for kids, diversity, great schools, tolerance. I love that babies are considered important enough that they PAY mommies to stay home with their babies for a year or more. Mostly, I love that the media does not have a hold over people's minds in Europe and that people educate themselves about all aspects of an issue before making up their minds. I hate that in the US, FOX News is considered a place to get information. Most people here don't even consider alternative news sources and therefore are like sheep to the slaughter. I mean where in Europe could a president do what Bush has done? (Actually, I'm surprised Tony Blair IS still around.) Although I've never LIVED in England or any other parts of the UK, I've probably spent the equivalent to about... 6 months or so there. Why in the world would you want to come back to the US?

[velochic]

ICM - there a lot of things we are starting already, although dd is only 4. Knowing that we will not homeschool, we applied to, and thankfully were accepted into a multi-cultural language-immersion school. She's learning her 4th language now. Over 50 countries are represented by the student population and we are hoping that this diversity will help. Dh is not American, so even at home we talk about tolerance, diversity, and different cultures. We travel OUS as much as possible, live abroad every chance we're given, return to Istanbul to see family as much as possible. We avoid mainstream media, including PBS, and try to get our news from alternate media sources, including subscribing to French, German, Turkish, and English news sources. We avoid mainstream food sources (processed foods) and are teaching dd about eating healthy, organic, and whole foods. We teach her about conservation and not wasting resources. We don't allow her to be caught-up in commercialism, including not dressing her to be a walking Disney, Dora, Wiggles, Barney, etc. advertisement. We are trying to teach her about buying only what you can afford, when you can afford it (save to buy instead of using credit) and that it should be a quality item that is not meant to be disposable. Reduce, reuse, recycle.

That's about all I can think of right now. Basically, we try to steer her clear of those things that make the US culture so scary. I don't want her to be a sheep... I want her to swim against the tide.

[TinkerBelle]

Your post made me step back and say, "HUH!?!" We recently moved back from Europe VERY RELUCTANTLY. I came back to the US kicking and screaming. The US culture is poison, but more than anything, kids are not taught to look at issues from all points of view and work is valued over family here. Europe has such a wonderful focus on children and family, opportunities for kids, diversity, great schools, tolerance. I love that babies are considered important enough that they PAY mommies to stay home with their babies for a year or more. Mostly, I love that the media does not have a hold over people's minds in Europe and that people educate themselves about all aspects of an issue before making up their minds. I hate that in the US, FOX News is considered a place to get information. Most people here don't even consider alternative news sources and therefore are like sheep to the slaughter. I mean where in Europe could a president do what Bush has done? (Actually, I'm surprised Tony Blair IS still around.) Although I've never LIVED in England or any other parts of the UK, I've probably spent the equivalent to about... 6 months or so there. Why in the world would you want to come back to the US?



While I am a proud American and respectfully disagree with some of your political views, I will say that I agree that a lot of people in the US do not educate themselves on issues properly. But it is not all on the side of the more conservative. A lot of the more liberal folks I know are just as bad as the more extreme conservatives I know.

JMO.

I would love to visit Europe though. So many things to see and places to visit.

[wildmonkeys]

I often feel this way too. I am very worried about the materialism/elitism and lack of interest in knowing anything that I run into on a daily basis. The suburban sprawl and big box stores that seem to be taking over the entire country really freak me out. The fact that Bush was elected again still baffles and angers me. Aggressive driving and a general feeling that people are getting less nice scares me. The lack of support mothers who make different decisions and live different lifestyles saddens me - where is the fellowship of motherhood I expected?

That being said, other countries have their own issues. They might not be the same as issues in the US, but in the end people are people and behavior often falls short of ideal.

We spent time in Peru and though there are aspects of Peruvian culture that I prefer and we have tried to incorporate into our lives; however, the disparity in wealth and opportunity there was so extreme that I have never been able to reconcile how people treat other people like that. I am aware of extreme poverty in the United States - have worked in poor neighborhoods in Washington, DC and as a social worker in rural West Virginia, but it still misses the mark of what I experienced there. The riots in suburban Paris - genocide in Africa - extreme classism in India - sexual exploitation - etc. etc. etc. Around the world - human beings could do better.

But, back to the OP. Yes, I also find it very depressing and struggle with it daily.

Peace & Much Love,
BJ
Barney & Ben

[DoubleOven]

:tiphat:

[USAmma]

I have tried to bypass some of the cultural things I don't like in the US by homeschooling. I am not trying to shelter my children. They are well informed. My 5yo knows about war, how babies are conceived and born, she knows that different families pray to God differently and some do not pray at all, and where meat comes from. What she doesn't know about are cliques, racism, pressure to wear the latest fashions, teasing, and bullying.

She will get exposed to those in some ways when she starts to attend a one day a week program for homeschooled kids, held at a public school. But she will not be thrown into it 5 days a week. I feel like limited exposure with us talking about it will be a gentle way to expose her to it.

As she gets older she will have to learn to live in our culture, but she will hopefully have the strength and values from her upbringing and the kind of people we choose to hang out with, so that she will feel confident with who she is. It's important for all of us to raise our kids to stand up to pressures from society at some point, to learn to speak their mind when it goes against popular views.

I want to see adversity as a chance to make her strong, but on her timeline, with me supporting her untl she can support herself. OTOH it would be nice to have neighbors and friends who all shared our values so I didn't have to constantly explain to her why that mom is not picking up her crying baby, or why that other mom is saying four-letter-words to her kids at the store. :( I guess what I'm saying is that, since we can't move to another culture, I am creating that culture in our home.

[annakiss]

I really feel that it comes down to how you parent. There will be negative influences that our children are confronted with, but I feel like that's part of life. That's part of the context of our lives. Granted, we are homeschooling, but that doesn't mean that my children will never face this throw-away, consumerist culture. They will most certainly be confronted with it. I will be here to help them process it. I am not restricitive. I do not believe in sheltering, but we have our own mini-culture (our community) that our children will be exposed to most and that will give them the foundations they need to make sense of the world.

My parents were very, very cool parents. Very socially-conscious, very rock-n-roll, AP, whole foods, politically active folks. My sisters and I went to Montessori before going to public schools and I can see how we grew up and where we got our ideas from. They came from our family and our family's friends. We are all very outspoken now and I can see my sisters (who are 7 & 9 years younger than me, still teenagers) still formulating who they are within all the noise of the world. They are very much themselves.

I've seen unschooling families too where the kids still get into the consumerist culture. I'm not sure how that will play out as they get older, but I think it's an important lesson that says we can't control who our children become - they will always have that choice.

My main concerns these days are the state of the world - I am nervous about an uncertain future and if my children will live to have children. Granted, I'm dealing with emotional anxiety these days, so I'm afraid of zombies, but that's a whole 'nother issue. :bag:

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I'm feeling a little bit better today. For the record, I know there are pros and cons to living anywhere and I did make a conscious decision to live where I do. But, it's on days where I get a heavy dose of the cons that I get down but I'm not a generally negative person.

Right now, what's really getting to me is the price of food (compared to other less necessary goods) and the lack of respect for my safety when I'm on my bike. Also the pricey kids activities and the fact that the playgrounds are empty. The TV and commercialism gets to me as well.

It's also the extremes that get to me. I can't describe this without getting far more petty than I want to be right now but there just seems to be this phenomenon where every idea gets taken to a level where it doesn't appeal to me. Or where, the core ideas get left out of something and the focus is on a more minor issue.

Anyway, thanks for joining me in a little vent and giving me some things to think about.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

X-post with lots of people...I'll be back. Gotta go play cards with DC :)

[muse]

Your post made me step back and say, "HUH!?!" We recently moved back from Europe VERY RELUCTANTLY. I came back to the US kicking and screaming. The US culture is poison, but more than anything, kids are not taught to look at issues from all points of view and work is valued over family here. Europe has such a wonderful focus on children and family, opportunities for kids, diversity, great schools, tolerance. I love that babies are considered important enough that they PAY mommies to stay home with their babies for a year or more. Mostly, I love that the media does not have a hold over people's minds in Europe and that people educate themselves about all aspects of an issue before making up their minds. I hate that in the US, FOX News is considered a place to get information. Most people here don't even consider alternative news sources and therefore are like sheep to the slaughter. I mean where in Europe could a president do what Bush has done? (Actually, I'm surprised Tony Blair IS still around.) Although I've never LIVED in England or any other parts of the UK, I've probably spent the equivalent to about... 6 months or so there. Why in the world would you want to come back to the US?

Well I agree with you on many many points (particularly about the media, BUsh, and about the work-family balance) and they are many of the reasons we left the US to start with. But, to clarify, I would *only * go back if it's to the SF Bay Area, which to me in many ways is a whole different country.

And I feel the culture there in some ways beats that of England; here it is the norm to spend many days of the year indoors, watching TV. There we were out and about all day every day. Here, unless you live in London, there are very few truly multicultural areas to live; there the diversity was astounding. In many ways it was a much more progressive, creative and activist minded community. I've always felt England is fine, but the extremes in the US are what make it a very interesting place to be and are what has given rise to some amazing artists, musicians and thinkers. I could go on and on but having grown up in England myself I don't feel it's a particularly wonderfully child-friendly or child-positive culture.

And all that aside, from all our moving around something I've learned is that children are incredibly resilient and it's more important to us that we are doing what we need to be doing in order for our children to grow and be happy. I am happier there and more able to do the things I need. I trust in our parenting to believe that our dc's will survive and benefit from the culture there.

[mommytolittlelilly]

The foremost issue in my mind right now is why do so many little American children we've encountered seem so aloof or scared or alienated or WHAT? My daughter is 2.5 years old, and keeps trying to approach other kids up to maybe 6-7 years old to just talk or play, in settings such as our public library, the playground, just around the neighborhood, or at the mall. The other day we walked by a little girl about 4-5 years old on a bike with training wheels, and my daughter said hello to her and complimented her on her bike in a friendly sweet voice, and this girl totally ignored her. She could talk, because I heard her talking to her dad. At the library the other day, my daughter approached a couple of girls who were playing with a puzzle, introduced herself, and asked if she could sit down and play with them. They were probably 5-6 years old. They said NOTHING. NOTHING at all. Just looked at my girl like she landed from outer space. Then, she tried talking to a couple of other kids, must've been a brother and sister, who were just standing around. What did they do when she started talking to them? Looked nervously at her, didn't say anything in response, and quickly walked away....

Is this normal? Is this stranger-danger BS to the nth degree? I sure don't remember being totally IGNORED as a kid when I approached other kids...

[AngelBee]

I get so down sometimes with the culture in the US regarding family life, parenting and childhood. I don't feel like pointing out examples but, if you feel this way too, please share and tell me how you deal with it.
This is BIG issue for me. Though I am not pessamistic........deeply concerned would explain my feelings better.

I am hopeful that we all can make a difference. I am hopeful that my children will see the evil for what it is and make good choices.

It saddens me how far from good America is. :(

However, I am grateful for the freedom that I have here.

[velochic]

While I am a proud American and respectfully disagree with some of your political views, I will say that I agree that a lot of people in the US do not educate themselves on issues properly. But it is not all on the side of the more conservative. A lot of the more liberal folks I know are just as bad as the more extreme conservatives I know.

JMO.

I would love to visit Europe though. So many things to see and places to visit.


Please go back and read my post. I never once mentioned anything about liberal vs. conservative.

[USAmma]

The foremost issue in my mind right now is why do so many little American children we've encountered seem so aloof or scared or alienated or WHAT? My daughter is 2.5 years old, and keeps trying to approach other kids up to maybe 6-7 years old to just talk or play, in settings such as our public library, the playground, just around the neighborhood, or at the mall. The other day we walked by a little girl about 4-5 years old on a bike with training wheels, and my daughter said hello to her and complimented her on her bike in a friendly sweet voice, and this girl totally ignored her. She could talk, because I heard her talking to her dad. At the library the other day, my daughter approached a couple of girls who were playing with a puzzle, introduced herself, and asked if she could sit down and play with them. They were probably 5-6 years old. They said NOTHING. NOTHING at all. Just looked at my girl like she landed from outer space. Then, she tried talking to a couple of other kids, must've been a brother and sister, who were just standing around. What did they do when she started talking to them? Looked nervously at her, didn't say anything in response, and quickly walked away....

Is this normal? Is this stranger-danger BS to the nth degree? I sure don't remember being totally IGNORED as a kid when I approached other kids...


YES!! My dd gets this all the time. It's awful!! Luckily she's persistant and will find other kids that talk back on a busy playground. But the two girls in our cul-de-sac choose to ingore her.

[velochic]

Well I agree with you on many many points (particularly about the media, BUsh, and about the work-family balance) and they are many of the reasons we left the US to start with. But, to clarify, I would *only * go back if it's to the SF Bay Area, which to me in many ways is a whole different country.

And I feel the culture there in some ways beats that of England; here it is the norm to spend many days of the year indoors, watching TV. There we were out and about all day every day. Here, unless you live in London, there are very few truly multicultural areas to live; there the diversity was astounding. In many ways it was a much more progressive, creative and activist minded community. I've always felt England is fine, but the extremes in the US are what make it a very interesting place to be and are what has given rise to some amazing artists, musicians and thinkers. I could go on and on but having grown up in England myself I don't feel it's a particularly wonderfully child-friendly or child-positive culture.

And all that aside, from all our moving around something I've learned is that children are incredibly resilient and it's more important to us that we are doing what we need to be doing in order for our children to grow and be happy. I am happier there and more able to do the things I need. I trust in our parenting to believe that our dc's will survive and benefit from the culture there.


That's interesting. Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question. I've never been to SF, but have always heard about its WEATHER... so wonderful. It's good to hear that there are more substantial reasons to live there. FWIW, right now we are living in the midwest... ick! Worse still, in the suburbs. There is NO multi-culturalism here in our 'burb. Dh is nearly an outcast (he's middle-eastern) and gets strange looks in this community. If we are up for a move within the US, I'll make sure to check out SF. Cheers!

[EnviroBecca]

I know what you mean, but I try not to bog down in it. I've recently been involved in a discussion about alternatives to marriage (http://www.unmarried.org) in which a woman's been saying that no individual woman can have a non-oppressive relationship with a man unless ALL women rise up and demand better relationships, and explaining why I think she's wrong is helping me understand how I've handled being different from the norm in many aspects of my life. It's very disheartening to feel surrounded by people who are "wrong", esp. if they're always nagging you to be like them. But if you have enough contact with people who are "right", you can carry around that rightness with you even when you're awash in the dominant culture. I learned from my mom (http://www.earthlingshandbook.org/momwisdom) that it's okay to be different from the people around you when you are following your own conscience and learning and growing.

The biggest thing I've done to cope is to move to Blue America. Yes, there are people here who CIO and watch Fox News and any other "wrong" thing you can think of, but at least they're aware that not everyone thinks the same way they do. (I grew up in a town where, according to my parents, in 2000 and 2004 nobody put up signs about the presidential election because it was assumed that everyone within sight would vote for Bush!) No, not everyone we meet agrees with us, but it isn't too difficult to find people who do. Hanging out with like-minded people on a regular basis fortifies us for dealing with the others.

Some things I've done to build my culture:
Hosted a weekly "game night" open house, inviting friends to come over and hang out.
Become a Girl Scout leader. The values of Girl Scouting are the tenets of my daily life, and guiding girls to learn them strengthens my soul.
Joined a church where people believe that religion isn't just for Sundays, and gotten involved with lots of activities there.
Split an organic farm share with friends and met for a weekly dinner (alternating houses) on the night we get our veggies.
Become a Mad Lab Rabbit. (http://www.looneylabs.com/Rabbits/index.html) :D
Organized recycling programs at gigantic conventions and gone around from booth to booth collecting recyclables and getting signatures on petitions to ask the convention center to collect recyclables. The general population is much more in favor of recycling than you might think!
Chosen to commute by public transit so that I feel like part of a group rather than an individual in a car, and so that I'm not contributing to the traffic problems that so distress me as either a pedestrian or a driver.
Looked in the events listings of the local free newsweekly for interesting things to do. Many of these are poorly attended, which provides opportunity to talk with those who are there.
Decided to buy certain staple items from small local businesses where the staff have time to chat and my money is going back to my community.
Joined the Friends of the Library.

Just some ideas that might help. :innocent

[Tigerchild]

One thing that has helped me immensely is to severely cut my media consumption. That means ALL media. I've never been a big TV watcher (and we've not had cable in...jeez, like 7 years), I cut back on my talk radio consumption a little bit ago, and now I'm even almost eliminating things like Air America, ect.

I find that when I am not bombarded with in your face messages about how we're going to hell in a handbasket, I find it easier to cut others slack and not assume the worst of people. It's not that I'm not politically active (I get factual, brief legislative summaries almost weekly for my state, for example)--but I've decided just to not listen to commentary right now while I'm sensitive.

It was getting too overwhelming and overshadowing the fact that I have nice neighbors and I meet kind people every day. So I've just taken a step back to give myself a breather.

Sometimes I think that those of us who are troubled by the 'culture' and 'culture wars' sometimes can wallow too much in it, which is about as healthy as pretending that everything's fine and wonderful.

We are in the process of moving overseas, but realistically we know that it's not a paradise (no place is) and we're not looking (nor expecting) it to be everything that America's not. I'm sure there will be many positive things, but I expect there to be some negative things too. That's just the way life is, I've lived in a lot of places and several countries in my life, and if there's one thing I've learned is that regardless of 'culture', PEOPLE are remarkably the same whereever you go. You can't escape the jerks and racists and classists and sexists by moving to Europe (or America). And you'll find kind people even here of all places.

But seriously, if you are a newshound or have NPR in the background all the time, or listen to a lot of Air America or subscribe to a ton of political/social newsletters or zines (guilty of all counts, in the past!)...then you might want to consider taking a break for awhile. I know that's helped me immensely, which is good--because I don't want to leave with a huge cloud of negativity hanging over me. And it makes me better able to pay attention to the present moment with my kids, instead of staying up sleepless nights with all the future possibilities of all the horrible things that our country's policies are going to cause in the future dancing in my head. I'm sure some people thrive on that, but I sure don't. So I've decided to just take a break for the next 6 months, and then reevaluate.

HTH. :heartbeat

[Lizzo]

The foremost issue in my mind right now is why do so many little American children we've encountered seem so aloof or scared or alienated or WHAT? My daughter is 2.5 years old, and keeps trying to approach other kids up to maybe 6-7 years old to just talk or play, in settings such as our public library, the playground, just around the neighborhood, or at the mall. The other day we walked by a little girl about 4-5 years old on a bike with training wheels, and my daughter said hello to her and complimented her on her bike in a friendly sweet voice, and this girl totally ignored her. She could talk, because I heard her talking to her dad. At the library the other day, my daughter approached a couple of girls who were playing with a puzzle, introduced herself, and asked if she could sit down and play with them. They were probably 5-6 years old. They said NOTHING. NOTHING at all. Just looked at my girl like she landed from outer space. Then, she tried talking to a couple of other kids, must've been a brother and sister, who were just standing around. What did they do when she started talking to them? Looked nervously at her, didn't say anything in response, and quickly walked away....

Is this normal? Is this stranger-danger BS to the nth degree? I sure don't remember being totally IGNORED as a kid when I approached other kids...
We experience this ^ type of scenario often
I take my 10 month old DS to the library often and he LOVES it so much. He is so outgoing and sweet and loves when kids are near him. But the othe rkids, most of them are SO aloof,cold, and unfriendly....almost anti social, No personality. I can't believe it! I mean these are 3,4,5 year old children and they act....well like you described. I feel bad for my DS who tries to play and interact. it scares me!
I graduated highschool in August and I know some of the kids were like that there too. Aloof, but...no personality. Especially the boys. They are just so dry.
It's really sad
Oh I agree! wiht all of this in the PPs, DP and I discuss this frequently and try to come up with alternatives to fleeing the country (although we'd like to for these reasons and others). We think that if continue to raise Ds and future DC like we do and emersing them with all different kinds of people, keeping up with the AP plagroups, No TV, and taking DS to interesting places, plus alternative schooling(we've picked Waldorf), he wont be another no personality, aloof kid or adult.

[EnviroBecca]

:topic I've never been to SF, but have always heard about its WEATHER... so wonderful. :lol I've been there once. In August, it was 60 degrees and drizzling most of the time! :p

[wildmonkeys]

Kitty - Your suggestion is right on :thumb I do let myself wallow in it sometimes with too much NPR/Utne/pundit material.

I hope my post didn't seem too negative to anybody - I am having a pretty gray day :( and seem to be unable to control myself today :blah

As an aside, I have to say, my older son is one who might just walk away if somebody tried to engage him :o My younger son will pretty much always walk right up and start interacting with new people, but my big kid is really shy with kids his own age and often seems to be very much inside his own head. That is not to say that he doesn't ever start playing with kids that he meets out and about and he has made friends school, but I have seen him be pretty oblivious that other kids are trying to be friendly.

BJ
Barney & Ben

[Tigerchild]

I hope my post didn't seem too negative to anybody - I am having a pretty gray day :( and seem to be unable to control myself today :blah

It didn't. :hug I'm sorry you're having a grey day--I certainly understand those. You know, it used to be that listening to (or reading) sites where almost everyone agreed with me used to pump me up when I was having one of those days, KWIM? But lately all it does is make me feel more hopeless/paranoid/oppressed, and I think my body is strung out on the stressing-out reaction. I think that it is NOT unreasonable or bad to be concerned--but it's also okay to want to take a break for awhile too. You are not bad or negligent if you do..most people experience burnout of some kind or another eventually. :)

It's kind of funny--once I was bored and decided to monitor my heart rate and blood pressure at various times while listening to my favorite talk radio shows, and I was amazed at how often it made my both go through the ceiling! So I think that even if you have it on as background noise, there is something to the feeling that it wears you out and wears you down--even if you happen to agree with the commentator. :) Or it could be that I just have a really strong temper! ;>

Anyway, I hope that you get a little sunbreak of mood today. I don't think you were too negative at all. :throb

[newmainer]

Nice weather in SF? hmmmm if you like fog and don't mind that it rarely ever gets truly hot, even in the summer.

but i digress...

i deal with this issue a lot too, and living in a place that has a lot of alternative culture is really important to me. We gave up the (cultural) diversity of where we lived in california for the pace of life, emphasis on land/conservation, small town and lack of big consumerism of where we live in Maine. You don't find the "latest fashions" here, and while sometimes it can seem boring i *never* leave my house feeling like a dork for how i'm dressed, regardless of what i'm wearing. we have active local groups in tons of areas, from organic farming to dance and art to political and media groups. While its a small, rural area, it's also progressive and i love it for that. At the same time, we have Walmart and Home Depot its easily avoidable and we do our best to shop local as much as possible.

i know we'll have to work on exposing our dc's to cultural diversity, but to me that's minor to live in a place where i feel like i am not parenting upstream. i think if i lived in a more mainstream suburban type environment, i would go crazy.

[sunnmama]

I worry very much about the culture. I feel that we are living fairly "differently" from the "average american", and that is protecting dd from a lot at this age. And we have a lot of like-minded friends, so it all seems "normal" to our kids for now. But, I do worry about what will happen when she is older. Will she resent my "different-ness"? Will she swing 180 degrees in the opposite direction?

I wish that "normal" for me was a bit closer to "normal" for the culture, so that it wouldn't be so much of an issue. But, at least in my town, I am pretty far from normal!

[fuller2]

Before you all go moving to SF, know that it is one of the most expensive places to live in the country, and that even half a million bucks will not get you much in terms of housing (say, a 2-bed apartment). People with kids are moving away from SF, Boston, all the places that cost so bloody much.

Just posting to say that getting rid of the media helps tremendously--like ALL media. I used to be a journalist, I used to work in public radio--and I have to say, I like the world a lot more now that I hardly pay attention to mass media of any sort. There's something to be said for not being continually distracted by someone else's take on whatever situation. For me it's been worth it just to get all those other people's voices out of my head. I suggest listening to college courses on tape from the Teaching Company instead (you can get them on Ebay used too since they can be a bit pricey)...www.teachco.com

[velochic]

Nice weather in SF? hmmmm if you like fog and don't mind that it rarely ever gets truly hot, even in the summer.

i know we'll have to work on exposing our dc's to cultural diversity, but to me that's minor to live in a place where i feel like i am not parenting upstream.

That is, indeed, my favorite kind of weather. Dh has spent some time in SF and he loved it, too. :lol

About your cultural diversity comment... depending on where you go, some places in Europe offer both the diversity ans some of what you are talking about not parenting upstream. No place is perfect. For example, living in Germany, they have an extremely high rate of breastfeeding. EVERYONE breastfeeds... but it's expected that you'll wean at 6 months. Spanking is illegal. There are recycling laws and urban sprawl laws (they will build up to the moon before they take more land to build). Whole foods are the norm as is organic farming. I could go on. But, OTOH, Turks have been getting discriminated against, publicly and legally, since very recently. So, yeah, you take some bad with the good, but the good far outweighs the bad, IMHO, living in Europe.

Cultural diversity is VERY important to us because we're a multi-lingual family with multiple citizenships. Dd has already spent a good portion of her life living abroad, will do so again before she's off to college, and if anything happens to us she will be raised by family abroad. So the cultural aspect, and teaching tolerance in particular, is very important to us... enough so that we drive her an hour away to an international school to get away from a very uniform white, christian, middle-class culture where we live. We're that dedicated to multi-culturalism and we hope and pray that this will be the key for her.

[RedWine]

I guess I'm lucky -- I live near Boston, in a multi-cultural, friendly neighborhood. Yes, there are mainstream folks, but my friends are all alternative types. I just joined a homeschool coop, and I am slowly becoming friends with other like-minded mamas.

Moving to another country is not the answer, in my opinion. The United States is a good country in many ways. Perfect? No. Is the current political atmosphere ideal? Um, NO (IMO). But other countries have their problems too, and I personally feel that to be a responsible citizen, you stay and try to fix the country you're a citizen of. Can you fix the whole culture? Of course not. But you can influence those you know and meet by quietly, gracefully sticking to your own ideals.

I've influenced some of my more mainstream friends by quietly (not preachily) doing things the AP way. We also don't watch TV, and one of my former TV-addict mama friends has noticed how my kid doesn't continually ask to watch a DVD, or play "Dora," etc. -- she likes this, and is now cutting way back on the TV consumption. Others have tried slings when they've noticed my heavy use of them. Etc.

As far as our children, we will homeschool. If we couldn't homeschool, we would find a multi-cultural private school, or put them in Montessori. There are ways to keep your children from the things you don't like in this country. That being said, I will readily admit that if both parents need to work and the money is very tight the homeschooling/private school may not be an option.

Anyway, we travel all the time and I would love to live in Italy. I LOVE Italy. However, I know that if I moved there, I would miss things about the US -- and I'd also feel guilty about not trying to do my part in changing it somehow.

[aprilushka]

I come from a small town in rural California from a very typical lower middle-class, conservative, Christian family. I went to pretty bad, typical rural American schools (albeit rather diverse, since the Latino and Laotian populations were significant and now the Latino population is actually the largest single group there-- but still, it was essentially a combination of two rural, insular small-town cultures-- white rural and Latino rural). Yet I always wanted to travel, was very interested in Europe, made friends with the exchange students, etc. I got into a very good university and was able to realize those things-- I spent three consecutive summers (plus a fall semester) in the UK in college and lived in Russia for a year after college. Until I went to Russia, I was determined to live in the UK permanently. However, as it turned out, I married a Russian, came back to the States and went to law school and even though I could have gone abroad to live after that, it would have involved continuing a lifestyle I did not like (ie, working in a large firm) so I opted not to do that. However, I've since figured out that while place is important, one can, especially in areas with lots of resources, avoid most of the things one doesn't like, although anywhere some compromise is necessary, and commercialism altogether is almost inescapable anywhere in the world. I spent a lot of time in early adulthood detesting the town and culture I grew up in, detesting America to a certain extent and feeling smug about my (self-supposed) state of enlightenment. I'm a bit more humble now, I hope, and although I would not be comfortable in the type of environment I grew up in, and like the fact my children will be exposed to more resources living in the metro area we now live in, I can recognize that there are different lifestyle choices and not everyone has to like or be interested in the same things as me to be leading a full life. In other words, it's as okay to be a middle American as it is to be a cosmopolitan European.

Having spent a lot of time around Europeans and in particular, Russians from large cities such as St Petersburg (who still are the bulk of my out-of-work social life), I have increasingly seen fewer differences if anything in "culture" taken as a whole, and more in individuals. In other words, for most aspects of life, unless choices are imposed, they are peculiar to an individual and one can find like-minded individuals anywhere, and sometimes like-mindedness is not how you originally perceived it. Of the people I like best at work, most are very typical American and are easy to talk to because of their intelligence and good sense and the couple who try to exude "internationality" and Euro style cosmopolitan sophistication actually irritate the crap out of me because of their personalities and frequent obtuseness (whereas without knowing them personally, only what their interests and backgrounds were, I would have guessed I would have the most in common with them).

If we were all a function of the culture that surrounds us, I would most certainly not be who I am today. As parents, it is our prerogative to structure the home culture the way we see fit, but children will ultimately choose to become who they want. So in the end I think it's good to try to encourage those ideas and values we hold dear and restrict entrance into the home of those influences we do not, but to build solid walls around ourselves is not possible, nor desirable, because you do not know what good you may be keeping out with the bad

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I want to admit something, which is that the "you can find what you want" message isn't something that I'm receptive to at this time. It's not that I don't appreciate the ideas, it's just that I don't quite get it. One of my biggest issues, for instance, is driving and that I just don't feel safe here.

We have one car (by choice) and DC and I get around by bike and it's SCARY! Like minded friends and multiculturalism isn't going to help with this problem, yk? Neither will it help with the price of food. Or that fact that people look at DC and I like we're freaks when we're out because I'm not hovering over her like she's some kind of fragile, destructive, klutzy china-doll-monster.

I am reading Consuming Kids about marketing to children, which is definitely getting me riled up. I'm not sure if I can afford to have my head further in the sand (cuz I'm already kinda out of it). I do know what you mean though.

I'm also getting involved in my community, which IS helping. I'm meeting some cool people and learning about local politics (albeit frustrating at times) is largely encouraging to me. If only because you get the feeling like you could do something rather easily. I'm more of an urban type so getting out to rural Maine or something, while tempting for a little while, isn't something that would make me happy. Isolating myself in my garden doesn't sound half bad...

As far as my immediate community, that's part of it as well. I really want to just meet my neighbors and be friends, yk? I've decided that there is a unique beauty about a friendship that grows within close geographic proximity. It just can't be duplicated and it's hard to find here. It's difficult because we tend to migrate to like minded people (which limits us) and because we're so willing to drive for our friends and people are so busy...driving around, I guess.

I guess, I'm still pessimistic. I realize that there are a small few areas in the US where you're likely to just fall "naturally" into a cool community. I have friends in San Francisco, Berkeley and NYC that have this. But other areas, you're more creating it for yourself. For instance, my parents have a good life in an "average" US city but part of that life involves driving 20-40 minutes (without traffic!) to live it.

So, Wildmonkeys, you aren't being too negative :) Maybe I am...but the thread title says that I am being pessimistic :)

[IdentityCrisisMama]

So you don't think I'm just complaining without doing something, I want to tell you something. We just moved to this city (which I know isn't helping), found a cute house within walking or biking distance to downtown and a cute neighborhood Main Street AND I found my friends a house less than 1 mile from us!

[annakiss]

But other areas, you're more creating it for yourself. For instance, my parents have a good life in an "average" US city but part of that life involves driving 20-40 minutes (without traffic!) to live it. My community here in this fairly large city involves this sort of commitment on the road too, unfortunately. I really hope to move at some point though to a smaller city. The city I grew up in was medium-sized and we always had family friends around whether they lived precisely close by or not. It was really essential, I think.

As I've become an adult, I have gotten quite pessimistic about the culture too, but I think that my kids probably won't see it that way until they have to worry about other people too (like children of their own).

We were reading The Lorax last night at bedtime and it was really quite depressing to me. I remember reading the same exact story as a kid and it was inspiring. Sad, but hopeful. I'm sure my kids don't get the same story as I do. Their worlds have not grown so large as to encompass the possibility of bad things happening to them. I don't suspect they will for some time. Even during all my teenage angsty depressive years, I never felt the sense of - I guess I'll call it impending doom- that I do now.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's not all doom and gloom in their worlds. They'll grow up. They may be excessively exposed to things you don't want them exposed to, but I doubt they'll resent it. It's their lives, it's simply what they will know. And they won't feel destroyed by it. Their brains won't feel less full or less able. They will be able to be creative, amazing people despite the culture. It's the spark of humanity. That amazing urge to create. You can't stamp that out with a thousand tyranic regimes, all the logos and marketing in the world memorized and spouted from out the mouths of babes will be but fodder for contemplation, much in the way of Andy Warhol. Collage is the art form of the 21st century, after all. I mean, sure, you don't want them to grow up not knowing what happens in a meadow at sunset (everything), but though the landscape of their world is mostly billboards and asphalt, it is their context, their time, their history. All you can do is make choices. You are not responsible for the outcome of human history.

I hope any of that made any sense.

[sunnmama]

As far as my immediate community, that's part of it as well. I really want to just meet my neighbors and be friends, yk? I've decided that there is a unique beauty about a friendship that grows within close geographic proximity. It just can't be duplicated and it's hard to find here. It's difficult because we tend to migrate to like minded people (which limits us) and because we're so willing to drive for our friends and people are so busy...driving around, I guess.

Yes, I struggle with this as well. *None* of our friends live within biking/walking distance. I do know some nice people in our neighborhood, but no kids.

So we bike most places (plenty of sidewalks on the major roads, so relatively safe), and walk many others, and bus a couple more....but we simply *have* to drive to see some of our friends.

When I was a kid, I never drove to see friends! Most were right in my neighborhood, and some a bike-ride away.

[marybethorama]

I
Right now, what's really getting to me is the price of food (compared to other less necessary goods) and the lack of respect for my safety when I'm on my bike. Also the pricey kids activities and the fact that the playgrounds are empty. The TV and commercialism gets to me as well.


I'm with you although I do have a different view of TV. We had the opportunity to live in Canada for 4 months in 2004. The quality of life was so much better. Party I'm sure because we were living in a more populated area but also because there were different priorities.

I get depressed about living in the US too.

[marybethorama]

I
I am reading Consuming Kids about marketing to children, which is definitely getting me riled up. I'm not sure if I can afford to have my head further in the sand (cuz I'm already kinda out of it). I do know what you mean though.

)

You know, I've spent a lot of my life studying cultural issues (okay mostly in other centuries :lol ) but I've read that book and I have some issues with it.

I really do not agree with all that they write. I don't think the author's are really seeing how we relate to culture.

Sorry, to go off on a rant but it's one of my biggest pet peeves.

Not that I'm saying it's wrong to not participate in commercial culture, no problem if you choose not to, but I think the issue is more complex than that.