Denying boys their right to have feelings

[USAmma]

I have two girls, but I watched a compelling PBS show last week called Raising Cain that's based on his book. One of the things that came up was how, in our culture, boys are discouraged from being in touch with their feelings. A crying boy or man is seen as weak or "girly". I had never really thought about all that before. I wanted to encourage those of you who have sons to read that book.

Today at the mall playground a little guy, about 1.5 years old, took a tumble off a low structure. He started to cry and look around for his dad. His dad came over and the boy threw himself into dad's arms. Instead of hugging him and validating the boy's feelings and talking about it, he pushed the boy away from him a little bit. He held the boy's shoulders and looked into his eyes and said, "You're okay, you're okay. Now stop crying and go play." Then gave him an affectionate pat on the bottom and went and sat down again. The little boy looked confused and sad but eventually recovered and played.

Then there were some boys rough housing but no one was getting hurt. They were just having fun and seemed to know when to stop before someone got hurt. But their moms were constantly pulling them off each other and telling them not to play like that.

I don't think those parents were bad parents. They were watching their kids and were aware of what they were doing. When the boy got hurt his dad got right up to see if he was okay. It's just a symptom of our culture. How sad that boys (children in general) are not allowed to be themselves. How sad that the man did not feel right sharing that moment with his son, where trust could have been created between them.

[Llyra]

My FIL did that to my husband-- stunted him emotionally, taught him to stuff his feelings. I've spent ten years undoing his work, and sometimes I want to go and ream him out because of it, but I know he'd never understand. That's just how he was raised, and he's never stopped to consider whether it's right or not.

Every once in a while, I catch DH doing that to DD-- staying things like, "oh, stop it, you're fine" or something like that. I'm like the fierce mama bear when that happens, I can tell you, and I think DH is starting to understand.

[twin1coby]

I also hear my husband saying, occaisionally, to my ds "stop crying, you're fine!" and it makes me feel crazed! It's SO OK for boys to cry and feel things and as the orig post. mentioned this is a very important part of boys growing up (that they be able to show feelings whether sad or aggressive and not feel ashamed of HAVING emotions).

I only know the abridged version of the PBS show's message (and that of Raising Cain) but I totally agree. I think it will be hard for me as my son grows to allow him to play out his more violent or aggressive "fantasies" (as the PBS show discussed) but knowing that it is better to support and discuss than to ban and belittle...helps this mama of a growing boy look toward a healthy emotional future for her son!

It's all hard work, huh?

[Marsupialmom]

Please realize it isn't just the men that are saying it to the boys. Mom's and grandma's are just as guilty. I have known mom's be worried about their boy being sissy. (I re-read your post and realize you mentioned it. DUH!! Editing that in).

I have seen girls that have been taught/raise to think down on the less "masculan" man. Going for the sports guy and not the "nerdy" guy.

As much as we need to teach our daughters to accept it and not look down on it.

I have been horrified at some of the lessons and messages other women have sent my children. My hoh dd one time hit another little girl. The boy that was sitting there got yelled at by the girls' mom for hurting her girl. Then looked at me stupid when I said it wasn't him but my girl. She was shocked that another girl would hit. She just couldn't imagine it.

One of my favorite aurthor on this is Michael Gurain. He has several good books about the differences of boys and girls.

[aisraeltax]

i saw the show too and thought it was great. i have since been trying to make sure i don't do this. i never tell my boys not to cry, etc. but there were some interesting observations made that i was unaware of (e.g., baby boys get MORE upset that their moms ignore them than baby girls).
its rerunning on pbs right now if anyone has boys, i highly recommend it too.

[luna-mia]

My dh is also from the old school train of thought that girls are to be raised diff than boys. I argue that as the girl of a set of boy/girl twins (follow me??) that we were raised the SAME and thats how it should be. Not more affection for the girls b/c they're girls and being harder on boys b/c they're boys. My ds is 13 and still very affectionate, allowed to show emotions -- though the teen years are rearing their ugly head. But to treat my ds different b/c he's a boy and they need to be tough? What a load of crap. I won't allow it and it is a source of argument in my house. Dh says that I OVERRIDE his discipline. Darn right if I think he's being too hard. There's no need for that kind of bunk IMO. Good subject -- I should read that book.

[Laurel]

I saw the same show, and it was fabulous! It hit on so many issues we've been dealing with lately. It was interesting that the very next day we had an incident with a 5-year-old neighbor boy, a boy who really struggles emotionally (extremely sensitive, frequent temper tantrums, can't get along with *any* other children, etc.) This boy was over at my house. I mentioned to my 3-year-old ds that we needed to cut his fingernails. Ds wasn't happy about that and was telling me he didn't want his nails cut because it would hurt. I went upstairs to get the clippers, thinking that we would negotiate this when I got down. As I was upstairs, I heard my ds crying and the two boys yelling at each other. I ran downstairs in time to see my ds reaching out to hit the other boy. I caught ds's hand, picked him up, and took him over to the stairs where I sat him down to find out what on earth was going on and to discuss the hitting episode. Then ds told me why he was so upset. This neighbor boy had told him that if he cried (about having to get his nails cut), Santa Claus would not bring him any presents! My little innocent ds (yes, we do Santa at our house) was crushed because of course he had never heard anything like this in his entire life. I set aside the hitting matter for a moment, took ds into my arms, and told him that Santa brings gifts to ALL children. In the meantime, the neighbor is yelling, "No he doesn't. If you cry, he doesn't bring you anything. My mom says!" This boy would not let up until finally I had to tell him firmly that we believed differently in our house and I wasn't going to discuss it with him anymore. After we resolved the issue of how we don't hit in order to solve our problems, I started talking with ds again about getting his nails cut. He whimpered, "But, it will hurt!" The neighbor boy heard this and yelled out, "He's lying! Don't listen to him!" I looked the boy square in the eye and said, "He is not lying. He is my son, and I *will* listen to him." I just thought how ironic it was that I had just watched this show the previous night about how boys have their emotions squelched, and now I was seeing a perfect example of the damage such an attitude inflicts. Here I had a troubled, emotionally needy little boy trying to pass on to my son the same garbage his parents have been feeding him for the past five years. (This boy has many, many issues, but that's a post for another day.)

The other issue we've had at our house the past six months or so is my ds's interest in "aggressive" play (swords, wrestling, chasing dinosaurs, etc.). Between reading Playful Parenting and now seeing this show, I feel much more comfortable allowing my ds some space to figure things out by playing "bad guys, good guys" "get the monsters" and other such games. Originally I too would have probably just squelched all of this type of play, though it would have been a hard sell because ds is so enamored with it. But I really believe in the idea presented in both the book and this show that boys need to be able to engage in this type of play in order to figure out how to deal with this sort of thing in real life.

[wildmonkeys]

I don't struggle too much with my guys and the emotional aspect. They are both very comfortable expressing their emotions with us :lol

I have struggled with the rough play though - part of the reason for me is because ds1 is very sensitive as are several of his buddies (girls and boys) and I have seen a bunch of kids playing rough and tumble and everybody is happy and then it just sort of goes badly and somebody gets their feelings (or body) hurt so I do struggle with when to intervene and redirect there.

I had a weird moment watching The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe with ds because during the "war" scene I felt sort of alarmed that it was too violent and might scare him and when I looked over he was so in fantasy land. When talking about the movie after the fact he said that he would love to "be a unicorn riding hero" and I realized that C.S. Lewis hit on some fantasy for him that was not positive to me and have been trying to incorporate that realm of his perception into my perception of things, ykwim? It was weird because he is a really gentle quiet little guy who sort of defies many of the "boys are rough and always moving" stereotypes so it was pretty unexpected for me...

BJ
Barney & Ben

[flapjack]

I really struggle with allowing my son to rough-house: my guys tend not to do it at home, so when I hear about it at school my mind immediately screams "co-ercion! How could they let it happen?" He is very sensitive- my younger son has two best friends who are both very gentle and loving, so the issue simply never arises there.

[muse]

It's amazing how it creeps in in such subtle ways; I noticed myself telling DS not to cry or telling him "he's okay" even after thinking I was oh so aware of this issue!

Now, on the play issue...what would Raising Cain say about that? DS doesn't rough house but suddenly he and his male friends spend all their time playing "killing" games. All of us parents are baffled as to where it came from, since they are all at a Waldorf school, watch hardly any TV, don't have swords, guns etc etc but it seems absolutely unavoidable. His Waldorf teacher is concerned about it and says it's empty, uncreative play, but I feel torn. Clearly they are needing to work something out through this (??) and nobody ever gets hurt, but it's a bit disturbing to watch!

[mmace]

My boy is seven, and I do often find myself telling him "You're okay", but more in a holding him on my lap, rubbing his back way, not a shake it off and go play way.

Sunday morning we were at Sunday School and he had taken his stuffed seahorse with him. Somehow Greenie got a hole in him (just ripped at the seam) and my sensitive boy (he has PDD-NOS) started to cry. It was strange to me to see him sit there trying so hard to fight back the tears, rubbing his eyes, trying to hold it in, because at home he would have just let that out. It really made me see that society has trained him that it's not okay for him, even at age seven, to cry in public. It made me see how much he's grown over the last couple of years, and it made *me* want to cry!

[mamabohl]

YES! My H does that stop crying you're ok thing to our older son (luckily he didn't do it as young as 1.5) and it makes me furious! I've told him he can cry whenever he wants and no one can tell him not to.

[4evermom]

I do try to keep ds from playing rough with other similar sized kids because, although it goes fine for a while, ds gets really riled up and has trouble stopping. Rough play doesn't bother me much but I know that if anyone is on the ground, ds will jump on them, frequently landing with knees on head. I've been seeing the value of action figure, lately!

[starlein26]

It's amazing how it creeps in in such subtle ways; I noticed myself telling DS not to cry or telling him "he's okay" even after thinking I was oh so aware of this issue!.....

i do this too...

it seems to me that my son is extremely sensitive though and i gently try to encourage him to see things more lightly i guess, to 'laugh' certain things off...i know i can't change him, nor should, but i feel that he has meltdowns more than the norm....i don't know...it becomes cyclical reasoning for me, did i create this by being too responsive to his every cry or am i actually responding to his own deep sensitivity?

[zinemama]

I thought Raising Cain was an interesting book and it certainly put me in the mindset of talking about feelings with my boy (I read it when he was a baby), although I think I would have done this in any case.

My issue with the book was that it seemed like the author(s?) drew most of their conclusions from their work with a subset of very troubled kids and pretty much applied their findings to all boys.

[EnviroBecca]

Yes, the strict male gender role can do a lot of harm, just as the strict female gender role can. :shake

It really made me see that society has trained him that it's not okay for him, even at age seven, to cry in public.Um, at age seven I too would struggle not to cry in public, because my peers made fun of anyone who did (boy or girl) as a "crybaby". This type of teasing may be more painful for boys because they see it as criticism of their masculinity as well as their maturity, though.

The book Liberated Parents, Liberated Children :thumb begins with a section about realizing just how often typical parents deny their children their feelings. Since reading that, I've been hearing it everywhere. I try not to do it myself but to describe what I think he's feeling. For example, the other day we were all upstairs when EnviroBaby suddenly headed for the stairs, and when he started to turn around to go down backward (which he's very good at) he slipped and fell pell-mell all the way down! :eek We knew it wasn't serious because he started bellowing right away without a period of shock, but I raced down and picked him up and said, "Ohhh, that was scary! You didn't expect that at all! It just went wrong somehow. Falling is a very scary feeling. It makes you feel all tense and shakey. Ohhh, that wasn't what you wanted to do!" He gradually sort of melted onto me. :love Then he gave a big sigh, climbed off my lap, and went up 3 steps and carefully came back down. Right back on the horse that threw him! :thumb

[hhurd]

My issue with the book was that it seemed like the author(s?) drew most of their conclusions from their work with a subset of very troubled kids and pretty much applied their findings to all boys.

One idea I took from the book and from the show is that "normal" boy's behavior is increasingly considered to be abnormal. A boy's behavior often gets them catagorized as troubled, when they're perfectly within the normal range, i.e., plays aggressively, speaks or writes "violent" words, and so on.

[Storm Bride]

His Waldorf teacher is concerned about it and says it's empty, uncreative play, but I feel torn.
Honestly...aside from stuff that's completely scripted, such as electronic toys that are purely "push this button, and this will happen", I don't really believe in "empty play". I've always felt that play is my children's purpose...they're learning through it, exercising through it, experimenting through it, and working out problems through it.

I may be in the minority around here, but ds1 has always been totally into martial arts, swords, etc. and he's extremely creative and imaginative, and one of the kindest boys I know. He gets something out of all his acrobatic "fighting", and I don't need to know what the benefit is to see that it's there.

[aisraeltax]

karate hasdone wonders 4 my 7 yo who has special needs (physical),

and i agree w/ the pp.... there really isnt empty play....that show was good at pointing out boys; needs re: phys. play too.

sorry...nak and not good at it!!!!

[Kleine Hexe]

My friend was telling me about the show. I would like to read that book. I just finished Real Boys and it's along the same lines. I learned a lot.

I'm trying to teach my DH about at all. He was raised very much in the old boy code. I always thought it was much harder to raise girls in our society but now I see that it's not so easy to raise well adjusted boys.

[ToniaStarr]

I deal with this issue on a regular basis as I have two sons who are very different. One is very tough, rough, bouisterous....and what many label "all boy" as if to say my other son is LESS boy???!!!! My other son is more sensitive, empathetic, tender, nurturing. I hear alot of "you better toughen him up ..." or people saying he is "whiny, girly" etc... This leaves me very frusturated and annoyed. NOT with my son. With people who do not see the lovely potential in my older boy for being more tender. It is very hard in our society to raise an unbiased child. It seems to be a double standard. A tomboy girl is tough, percocious, independent... a boy who is more "feminine " in nature is weak, a sissy, etc.....
I actually am currently working on writing an article for Mothering on this very topic.

[muse]

This is a fascinating thread.

Honestly...aside from stuff that's completely scripted, such as electronic toys that are purely "push this button, and this will happen", I don't really believe in "empty play". I've always felt that play is my children's purpose...they're learning through it, exercising through it, experimenting through it, and working out problems through it.


Thankyou, for putting your finger on something I couldn't quite! Yes, as a music therapist it's the foundation of my work that a child works through things through play rather than talk, and that no aspect of their play is "empty". And while Waldorf is wonderful for my son in that creative play is strongly encouraged, it bothered me that she felt there was a "right" and "worng" way to play. She also referred a few times to the "good little girls" and how she hopes their influence will rub off on the boys. :angry But Waldorf is a whole other topic....

Tonia, I will be very interested to read your article.

[Godiva]

I would much rather see my dh cry rather than how he is now. He is so cold and unemotional. Just a few days ago I was sooo shocked to hear him say that he felt helpless in the hospital when I was giving birth (I did too). This was the first time he's EVER shared an emotion with me since I met him. It makes me so sad.

[wildmonkeys]

I brought this topic up tonight at dinner with my dh, father & fil....and

they asked (in a consensus that is rare among that specific crowd) whether I thought boys were not given the chance to express their feelings or whether society had expectations for them to express feelings they just didn't have.

I am not in agreement or disagreement, but fwiw I thought it was an interesting response.

BJ
Barney & Ben

[Laurel]

or whether society had expectations for them to express feelings they just didn't have.


I know this is what my dh would think. We have had many frustrating conversations in which I've been trying to pry out of him feelings that he insists simply aren't in there.

I do see it a little bit differently with children, though, at least from my limited perspective from the one son I do have. My ds exhibits evidence of a rich emotional life, and because I have focused so much on "emotional intelligence" and helping him express what's inside, he is quite adept for a 3-year-old at having conversations about emotions and about identifying what he is feeling. The concern that I had with the neighbor boy that I posted about earlier was that he vehemently denied the existence of emotions that obviously were present.

The TV show talked about studies that had been done showing that as infants, boys were often more emotionally expressive than girls were. Something happens as they grow up to change that.

[flyingspaghettimama]

If anyone is interested, here is a longer piece about the mother-infant "still face paradigm" study:

http://focus.hms.harvard.edu/1999/Feb5_1999/ped.html

It seemed a bit more complex than how it was presented on TV, but still supporting the same concusions.

[eilonwy]

I haven't read Raising Cain (our library system doesn't have it, so I'm going to have to request it through ILL) but I just finished Speaking of Boys by one of the co-authors. Aside from the seriously pro-school slant, I really liked the book.

I'm very lucky to have a husband who was a very sensitive little boy with a tense, controlling father. He makes a concerted effort never to tell BeanBean things like "Stop crying, you're a big boy," and I've seen him tell his father off for saying such things to BeanBean more than once. :love :thumb FIL occasionally says such things, and Mike immediately takes BeanBean's position-- "Dad, he's allowed to cry when he gets hurt/scared, leave him alone." I don't have a problem with crying, but I do ask both of my kids to talk rather than shriek at me... and I suppose that if you looked at it a certain way, it could be seen as me trying to deny them their emotional expression... :scratch :shrug

Anyway, we both make a point of not doing this to either of our children. I was taught that showing emotion of any kind is a bad thing by my mother; this problem certainly is not limited to little boys! There's a whole generation of women who grew up thinking that if they weren't happy about something, they shouldn't feel anything about it at all and they should just ignore it; that feminine beauty means pasting a smile to your face no matter what and biting your tongue when something less than pleasant pops into your mouth.

[Alkenny]

I have seen girls that have been taught/raise to think down on the less "masculan" man. Going for the sports guy and not the "nerdy" guy.

As much as we need to teach our daughters to accept it and not look down on it.


Very good point!