vent & wwyhd: 5yo hits my 1.5yo in the face

[TurboClaudia]

so i attend an informal get-together of mamas and babes/toddlers/kids at a local kid-friendly eatery. it happens every week, but it is a drive for us so we only make it once every 2-4 weeks. it began as an offshoot of an attachment parenting group, so i thought i would find like-minded people that i would have something in common with.

this morning we went, arrived a little late, and i was so relieved to see that the one woman i really just cannot understand and don't really like was not there. she has a 5 year old boy and a 3ish month old boy, and she talks a lot and appears not to listen very well. she also doesn't pay very good attention to her 5 year old, who is very active and strong-willed and has hit my now 19.5 month old son at least a couple of times. when she is there, i consciously choose to sit at the opposite end of the table from them so as to minimize interaction between her son and mine.

and then she showed up with her kids. the chair across from us at the end of the table was open and she asked if she could sit there and i said yes, wanting to give her the benefit of the doubt and recognizing that perhaps in this smaller group setting i could talk to her more get to know her better. her son was playing with the chalk bucket and the chalk board and didn't want my son to even touch the chalk bucket and would only hand him pieces of chalk to draw on the big board with. my son tolerated this for a few pieces of chalk, but then didn't want anymore chalk and shook his head and held out his arm in his "stop" sign, the boy persisted, my son pushed his arm away vigorously (as vigorously as a 22lb 31 in tall toddler can, anyway) and the boy proceeded to take the piece of chalk and begin stabbing and punching at my son's face. i yelled the boy's name, picked up my son and walked to the opposite corner of the eatery and just stood there to calm myself down. the boy came over and proceeded to try to negotiate with me why he hit my son, that my son "started it." so i angrily told this boy that my son is little and that he is big and i left the boy sitting in the chair and walked away. my son was not crying, not upset, not hurt, more stunned by my reaction, probably. the mom had been talking with someone about 20 feet away from where this all happened and did not even notice. after a minute or so, i decided i couldn't stay there because i was too upset so i asked for a to-go box for the remainder of our food, walked over to our table, started packing our food, and another woman there asked me if i was okay and i said no, we're leaving. she asked what happened and i told her the older boy hit my son in the face after my son refused to take his chalk. she said she was sorry that it happened and something about "taking care of a situation" and then we left. i cried most of the drive home.

i don't believe i overreacted. i had to remove my son from a potentially injuring situation.

i have left a message for the mom who asked me what happened so i can talk to her more about it.

i really like most of the mamas that go to this group, and most of the other kids are smaller. in fact, our son is one of the older ones. i think i will just stop going to this group simply because of this boy and his mother. i know it's hard to have to watch your child all the time, but this is not the first time this boy has hit my son when his mother stepped away or was involved in conversation with someone else. and especially since this boy is by far the oldest of the group, i would expect a watchful eye from his mother since she knows he is very active and strong-willed.

mostly i'm just venting here, but i'm also curious what you would have done in a similar situation... i definitely don't know this mom well enough to feel comfortable saying something to her about her son's behavior, and she has openly admitted that her son hates going to these "baby" events where there are no other bigger kids to play with and the mamas talk to each other and he doesn't have someone's undivided attention.

please share, mamas, and send me peaceful vibes so i can calm myself down...

~claudia

[srain]

I think what I would do is speak to the mother. Her child is behaving inappropriately, and she may or may not be aware of the situation. In other social situations, where he's in a group with bigger kids, he may not require the amount of monitoring he does with this group. If you have not brought the problem to her attention, she probably doesn't realize there is one. She should be paying better attention, yes, but since she's not, you have no idea how she would respond if the problem is brought to her attention.

[momof4peppers]

I'm sorry you're so upset by the situation. If I were you, I'd just quit going, or maybe see if some of the other mommas can't come to a place closer to you (or maybe trade houses?).

[earthmama369]

I personally wouldn't quit just yet, as I don't think it's a great way to model social interaction. I ran into a similar situation with a mama and her two sons at playgroup, where the oldest would continously wrestle smaller kids and babies to the ground, take toys from their hands, hit out, run into them, etc. Mainly he's just a VERY active kid without any sense of boundaries who needs a lot of hands-on parenting to channel all that energy in a safe and constructive way. His mother was being very passive, ignoring a lot of behavior, not following through on her words when she did say something, telling him to hug and say sorry to kids he'd just tackled (who did NOT want a hug from him at that point) . . . in general, she just had an ineffective approach and didn't seem to care.

I don't usually take an active role in parenting other people's children, but just about every parent there decided enough was enough and started to actively parent this child every time he started to get wild. We gave positive feedback when he was playing gently, sharing, etc., and we physically and verbally intervened when he got too rough. We didn't wait for her to act. We modeled different gentle, proactive techniques for her. We told him clearly and simply what he was doing that needed to change and how he could change it instead of just saying "No! Say sorry!" Etc. It took a few weeks, but she's started to use some of the same approaches and taking a more active role in parenting him at playgroup. It isn't perfect yet, and I think I'm always going to be a bit paranoid when he's there, but it's a far sight better and I enjoy going again.

[elsanne]

Ooooh how frustrating, Claudia! I think it's best you didn't address the sitch right then only because you were steaming and coming from an anger place. Of course you need to defend your child and the frustrating part comes, where to begin? With the child, with the mother, and of course there are those who believe the children themselves can and should work it out between themselves. It sounds like most of your anger is at the mother who does not pay much attention to her active child, so there is the issue (as you said, your son was not so upset or hurt, thank goddess).

If possible, try and put yourself in her shoes and imagine how someone could approach you from your situation without it feeling like a confrontation. Coming from a place of peace & love (for your son) versus anger. Definitely not in front of others, and mentioning that this is extremely uncomfortable for you to say but it isn't the first time, etc...

Let us know what you do and how it goes. I would also totally understand if you decided not to go to this playgroup, but if it's got other wonderful attributes about it don't give up on it quite yet!

best,
e

[elsanne]

. We didn't wait for her to act. We modeled different gentle, proactive techniques for her. We told him clearly and simply what he was doing that needed to change and how he could change it instead of just saying "No! Say sorry!" Etc. It took a few weeks, but she's started to use some of the same approaches


Here's another good option: maybe she doesn't have the tools or knowledge to control her son and this is a great proactive way to take care of it.

[Dechen]

I mean this gently, but if you know this older boy hits, why did you allow your son to play next to him? The other mom should absolutely be paying attention to her son, and I don't blame you for being angry with her. But if you know a certain event is likely to happen, you can shadow your own child and intervene before unfortunate things happen. I have been on both sides of the equation with my dd - hitting younger/smaller kids and being hit by older bigger kids. In either case, I have to be on top of the situation and guide MY child through it. Does that make sense?

I think if you can feel calm enough to do it, talking to the other mom would be good. There is a chance she doesn't know the extent of whats happening, or how it makes you feel. She may not care, but you'll never know unless you talk to her. She could be frazzled and tuning her son out, and need a reminder to attend to him.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

[marybethorama]

I personally wouldn't quit just yet, as I don't think it's a great way to model social interaction. I ran into a similar situation with a mama and her two sons at playgroup, where the oldest would continously wrestle smaller kids and babies to the ground, take toys from their hands, hit out, run into them, etc. Mainly he's just a VERY active kid without any sense of boundaries who needs a lot of hands-on parenting to channel all that energy in a safe and constructive way. His mother was being very passive, ignoring a lot of behavior, not following through on her words when she did say something, telling him to hug and say sorry to kids he'd just tackled (who did NOT want a hug from him at that point) . . . in general, she just had an ineffective approach and didn't seem to care.



if I didn't see your location, I'd think we went to the same playgroup. I have so BTDT with kids and moms like that.

[TurboClaudia]

thanks for your thoughts, mamas.

i'm still considering not returning to this group, but i have found out since yesterday that at least 5 other mamas have had their children hit by this boy and they have also observed this mama saying one thing and doing completely the opposite when talking about gentle guidance or gentle discipline.

i let my son play near him because at first, the boy was fine with my son. then he did start to get possessive of the toys/chalk he was playing with, his mom stepped away, and i was sitting 3 feet away from my son and his boy. i saw immediately when my son's communication was not being understood by this boy, and this boy hit my son only 2 times before i yelled at him and picked my son up. i was willing to give this boy and his mother the benefit of the doubt and see how a play situation would turn out, but it is now even more abundantly obvious to me that it is not a good situation.

i honestly have no interest in speaking to this mother. she is not a person i would choose to be friends with in any other situation, and we have little in common other than being mothers of boys. if i already had a friendship with her, i would probably feel very differently, but i have found that i don't communicate well about differences of opinion or different choices with people who i am not friends with.

again, thanks for your thoughts and ideas and experiences, and if anyone else would like to share, please do.

~claudia

[srain]

i honestly have no interest in speaking to this mother. she is not a person i would choose to be friends with in any other situation, and we have little in common other than being mothers of boys.
I don't really see how you expect the problem to be solved if you're not willing to address it with the person causing the problem. I don't see why it matters whether or not you have anything in common with her. I may have nothing in common with the mechanic down the road who parks customers' cars on the sidewalk, but I still ask him to keep the sidewalk clear so my family can walk safely. Like that mechanic, this mother may not recognize her son's behavior as a problem.

[KKmama]

Various thoughts...

First of all, I'm really sorry this happened. You were obviously scared and concerned (I would be, too). I don't think that the older boy's behavior was appropriate, and I don't think his mother was giving him enough supervision.

I agree that you shouldn't give up yet, especially if you enjoy the group...

I have encountered behavior like this with 3 kids (2 moms) at different points in the group of moms I hang with. In both cases, the moms behaved similarly to the mom you described: active/aggressive older boy not being adequately supervised (well, generally not supervised at all) around a lot of younger kids. Aggressive behavior toward younger kids (multiple kids, multiple incidents). What has happened for us is that the behavior inevitably got discussed elsewhere, the more vigilant moms were on alert, and we intervened very quickly when things happened again. With the more severely disruptive kid, the mom got the hint and stopped coming. With the other mom... she's utterly clueless, but she started leaving her older child (he's now almost 6) at home with her dh and only brings the bruiser 3 1/2 yr old (I don't think this is because of the older boy's behavior toward others... I think it's because she has so much difficulty managing *anything* with the 2 of them by herself... sigh). She still doesn't keep an eye on him, but *we* do, and he's not as bad as his older brother. When it's my "turn", I have no problem telling this child that it's time for him to go sit with him mommy for a while and to think about being gentle with the smaller kids... he *is* capable of listening, he just gets very little discipline and very little attention at home.

*You* are *not* responsible for this boy's behavior. *He* is, and secondarily, his mother.

I'm glad you spoke with the other mothers... I really think this is the best course to take. Keep us informed (at least somewhere ;)).

[nuggetsmom]

I would not stop going to the group just yet if you enjoy it and if you can't get a gettogether closer to your place. I would actually discipline that boy myself, but that is the way I am and I already have an older child and we are in a coop preschool so I feel more comfortable in doing that. If DD1 were younger, I wouldn't have been comfortable doing that. And by discipline, I do mean in a talking to gentle disipline kind of way And frankly I feel that if I take my kids out in public like that, I make sure they are situated and happy, and if there are a bunch of younger kids around I still keep a close eye on DD1 because it is frustrating for her to deal with younger kids sometimes. Besides, maybe the other moms could be impressed with how deftly and espertly and calmly I handle discipline situations :mischief :wink
:LOL luckily they don't see me in my own house :LOL
I agree that that mother should be paying closer attention to her child if he is repeatedly having behavioral problems, but she is not, sooooooo
I would either 1)stick close to the kids if they are paying togethr and ask either the boy's mom or another mom to come over and chat with you while doing that. Just for company type chatting. And help disciplining, since clearly this is up to you now.
2)distract my DC away from the other child if he wanted to play near him
3)go and lay down the rules of play as soon as they were playing together.
As in, remember that we have to share and take turns in playing with these toys It is not OK to hit and shove. Also, in the situation that you were in in this instance, or rather DS, I would have stepped in and explained your DS's communication to this boy. For instance by saying "his hand up means that he does not want that chalk, but maybe he would like a turn with the bucket" I am doing that type of interpreting for my kids a lot even though DD1 knows a lot about how DD2 communicates. Sometimes I just need to clarify (or maybe she needs to know that I am watching-insert creepy music here) Of course sometimes situation escalet so quickly you don't get there beforehand.

If that boy just got a new sibling he may be having sibling issues right now. Mommy is busy and he is not getting enough attention. Maybe giving him some positive attention once he arrives will make this not such a horrible event for him where he has to resort to attention getting behavior. Maybe another mom or two could give similar attention too.

As for your reaction to the incident, I think paying lots of attention to the vicitm (your DS) was a great reaction. I think most kids get that what they did was not OK when you pay attention to the victim.

As for the mom of the boy, she maybe she could bring some toys for him to play with. I have a bag of special toys just for times when I need 20 minutes of good behavior from DD1. Still, she is an angel most of the time :wink
This did not turn into the coherant and insightful post I wanted it to be, and it is mostly telling you what to do with this kid, which is not why you go to theis meeting but I HTH.