Problem with 'The Purpose of this Forum'

[curlyfry]

Does anyone else have a problem with this:


Vaccinations Forum is neither pro-vax nor an anti-vax in policy. It is a discussion forum that promotes "informed decisions".

It is unique amongst parenting boards on the internet. It is intended to be a safe place to discuss the pros and cons of the issue. Discussions are expected to be kept civil and respectful.

We know it can be a volatile subject. Please; be polite. Disagree by presenting information. If you're irritated and don't want to present the info yet again then simply refer them to the archives and back off. If people don't want to present their opinions and science and disagree gracefully; then they should bow out of the discussion. If they persist; then debate civily. If a member gets out of line; then it is an issue that the moderator will deal with.

I'm sorry Carla...you can lock this thread if you'd like, but I really think we need to talk about this as a community. It seems that people are using the wording of this to come in here and spread pro-vax propaganda and I'm just not o.k. with that. You can find pro-vax information all over the www. Why does Mothering.com have to be so PC by stating "Vaccinations Forum is neither pro-vax or anti-vax in policy." ?? This just opens the way for trolls to come in...And then the conversation inevitably gets heated, making it nearly impossible to comply with the second part of the Forum Guidelines about debating civily.

Should I be discussing this with you in a PM? I don't know. I'm just fed up. Am I overreacting?

[DoubleOven]

I don't have a problem with the rules per se. Some vaxers do come here because they're starting to second-guess themselves, and they might not be as likely to if the forum is labelled as distinctly anti-vax. Unofficially it is anti-vax.

I hear you about the trolls, although I don't read every thread, so it hasn't struck me as such a huge problem. The other problem, I think, is that even if the wording of the forum purpose statement is changed, a jerky troll with too much time on her hands is still going to find a way to come in and start a problem if she really wants to. It's easy enough to make up a new name and users do get instant access to the vax forum.

To me, I guess the biggest problem is that there are so many people who feel they have so little power and control in their real lives that they troll on message boards on the net to feel important. Pathetic, no? :nut

[alegna]

I agree, and would like to point this out:
" If you're irritated and don't want to present the info yet again then simply refer them to the archives and back off. If people don't want to present their opinions and science and disagree gracefully; then they should bow out of the discussion. If they persist; then debate civily. If a member gets out of line; then it is an issue that the moderator will deal with."

I'm not seeing a lot of information presented on the pro side. Maybe this is an issue we should re-visit. These days it's just serving to make the forum a hostile place for everyone. Some honest newbies have been attacked because we're all feeling so raw from the blatant attacks going on here.

Cynthia, could you weigh in please?

thanks,

-Angela

[rmzbm]

Well...the circ. board doesn't go both ways - not sure why this one should. Both circ. AND vaxing are proven harmful & both could be debated from the other side. *shrug* Just my thoughts...

[mysticmomma]

maybe it's a liablility issue. MDC or mothering don't want to publicly admit to being anti vax?

[MomBirthmomStepmom]

maybe it's a liablility issue. MDC or mothering don't want to publicly admit to being anti vax?
I don't come on this board a whole lot, mainly just looking for info (I'm against vax btw, DD was vax'ed until 12 months, then I wised up, and well, not again), but, I really think that maybe MDC is trying to be polite and open to it's MEMBERS (real ones, not trolls), who DO vax (or circ or whatever).

Just cause we feel one way, doesn't mean we have to be downright nasty and come out and say 'you're not welcome cause you did this', no matter what we think or why...

I'd feel pretty crappy if I was a member of a board, I felt comfy there, but I chose something and felt simply banished from a particular board for that choice... (although, I do tend to feel that way about the SAHM/WOHM debate going on)..

It just kinda sucks, cause around MDC I'm 'hearing' alot of, 'well if you don't do things THIS way, you suck as a parent', and that's coming from people on MDC directed toward other people on MDC, and it sucks. We're all just trying to do our best, let's not get even nastier...

[jessicaSAR]

When the default social and cultural position is pro-vax then any informed discussion will necessarily err on the anti-vax side.

However, since the current medical establishment and health policy bureaucracy actually encourages an uninformed pro vax position, it is possible to have an debate about informed vaccination that looks at the reasons (medical, political, economic and social) that doctors, scientists, policymakers support vaccination. What is not necessary, IMO, is to provide an additional forum to air the superficial vax propaganda passed out at the ped's office, that does not provide any real information.

But, I agree strongly with the pp that you will not get that real information from a debate. You really do have to read it yourself.

[paquerette]

I'm not sure that vax and circ are really comparable. Circ is on much shakier ground even in the mainstream. Circ is damaging to 100% of the people it's done to, vax not necessarily so much. I'm much more horrified at people who circ than vax, and I dunno about you guys, but I'd much rather be vaxed (even fully with all the newest crap) than circ'ed.

On one hand, I'd kinda rather see this forum be anti vax, but on the other hand, I wonder if it does do more good as a neutral discussion board. I dunno.

[rmzbm]

Really?? Now, personally, I'd rather my DS not have a foreskin than all the issues that has stemming from vaxing... :(

[bluets]

I appreciate the wealth of knowledge imparted by many here, and it gave me enough useful information to be able to decline Prevnar and HiB the other day (woohoo, our first vaxes declined) at the 12 month well-baby visit.

I feel badly for the people who come here and feel like they are getting trounced by the regulars. Having read a few of those threads initially, I decided not to ask naive questions, rather to sift through the archives a bit first.

I personally find that websites opposing vaccinations tend to be a little too inflammatory for my liking, safeminds.org being one exception to date. Are there any useful non-governmental, non-AAP pro-vax websites?

It is hard to find useful literature supporting (and sometimes opposing) vaccinations, without having a solid foundation in science to read and comprehend the underlying mechanistic studies. The appalling rate of scientific illiteracy in the US hobbles a lot of people from being able to do this without fear and trepidation. Moreover, many of the actual papers are difficult to obtain, beyond the abstract (if that is even available on pubmed - thank you BigPublishers for opposing Open Access). Even our big library doesn't subscribe to many of the journals so I find myself relying heavily on interlibrary loan.

It would be nice, however, to see all the relevant literature put together in one spot, perhaps as an annotated bibliography of sorts. Is there such a resource?

[cravenab00]

i would really like to see this board named the case against vaccinations.

but that is me.

you can go ANYWHERE and find pro-vax info.
But there ar VERY few anti-vax sites which present CONCRETE INFORMATION AND FACTS against vaccines which this one does. Many of the anti vax sites only have "vax are bad, the end" stuff.

I dont mind the debating, but when it gets nasty, and it DOES it bothers me.

we are all moms, trying to do the very best that we can for our children. that is a very difficult job. and when someone attacks someone else for a decision they dont agree with, it just makes our jobs that much harder

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I've always felt this is a major weakness of Mothering.

I feel its good that there is a place where both sides can be discussed, but as someone above said, the pro-vaxers don't often come with information worthy of discussion. What is presented is mostly opinion.

What really upsets me, though is when there are inconsistencies in their stories, and sometimes blatant lies, and when you call them on it, they ignore that. The major problem as I see it, is that the MO of pro-vaccine people can be a hit and run approach.

You see that hugely elsewhere BUT... I would also have to say that that can be the MO of anti-vaxxers elsewhere because the heat applied to anti-vaxxers on the pro-vaccine site makes those of us pinged for troll-hunting look like cherabims.

As far as I am concerned, Mothering can never fulfill the function that many of us would like it to because of the nature of the board. It's privately own, publicly accessible with what... nearly 50,000 members??? and it is what it is. In that aspect, there is little point in discussing its shortcomings, because that's been tried before, and no matter our ideas, it isn't going to happen.

And we have to accept that that's the way it is, so when you come to a privately owned board you have to come accepting the limitations. :shrug: In a sense, there's not much point in discussing it. Others have done so before, and while it might be a useful vent it will never have constructive spin-offs.

The only constructive issue for me to discuss on this thread is whether I'd rather be circumcised or vaccinated.

Circumcision is the least of the two issues, because even if the circumcision goes wrong, and you are deprived of the ability to have sex as a male, or if the child gets an infection, than can be treated. Death can happen but at least that's finite.

Try talking to someone with a child with permanent vaccine damage who is alive though. That's a situation where the parent constantly grieves, but cannot do it properly until, or if the child dies.

Talk to adults who have ongoing issues from vaccines.

When you really know the issues, both short and long term, and the potential for epigenetic damage to cellular DNA from vaccines, the potential flow down effects are grossly horrific.

The damage that circ can do is radically limited in comparison. And fortunately for females can only ever affect around 50% of the population.

So I guess for women :D its a no brainer. I wont be around much for a short while. I've nausea and other menopause issues that are majorly affecting my ability to think at the moment.

[curlyfry]

I'm not seeing a lot of information presented on the pro side. Maybe this is an issue we should re-visit. These days it's just serving to make the forum a hostile place for everyone. Some honest newbies have been attacked because we're all feeling so raw from the blatant attacks going on here.

Yep. This is what's wearing on me too. The pro-vax side likes to spout out opinion (I realize I'm making a generalization here, but I'm basing this on what's been recently happening here) and rarely any sources to back that up, and it fosters a hostile environment. I just wish this forum were more decidedly anti/selective/delayed vax so that people couldn't use the Forum Guidelines as an excuse to hijack every thread and spew opinion all over the place without facts to back it up.

It just kinda sucks, cause around MDC I'm 'hearing' alot of, 'well if you don't do things THIS way, you suck as a parent', and that's coming from people on MDC directed toward other people on MDC, and it sucks. We're all just trying to do our best, let's not get even nastier...

Whoa mama...I was not saying that! I never said anyone sucked as a parent. My beef is with the way that this vax forum is set up. I don't think it's nasty to wish this forum were more anti-vax. We've had plenty of vaxing parents (NOT Trolls) come here with honest concerns and they were treated with respect.

The only constructive issue for me to discuss on this thread is whether I'd rather be circumcised or vaccinated.

Um...Way to derail my thread! :p I think we can still discuss this even if nothing comes out of it.

[InDaPhunk]

Uhhhhhhh this thread is getting in a really weird area comparing circumcision to vaxing. There are quite a few statements in this thread made regarding RIC that most intactivists would take serious issue with, myself included. Maybe it would be best to drop the whole circ vs. vax thing lest this turn into a totally huge dual board war (if it's not already too late)

....I can feel the mods shaking in their shoes right now.

[Planta]

I am not sure that labeling the forum as clearly anti-vax would solve the problem. So many forums that have nothing to do with vaxes have problems with trolls!
To my mind it is a question of how to deal with very difficult posters, whether they are intentional trolls or not.
Actually I would enjoy very-very much to have a discussion with a pro-vaxer that is very sincere in her motivation (having the interest of her children as the highest priority) and that can present her opinions coherently. I would need such a debate to learn how to discuss with other "real" people, to clarify my own ideas and to learn new things.

[Sasha_girl]

Putting a mama and papa down for their decision to vax would never enter my mind, and I'm as anti-vax as they come. I want people to be comfortable with their decisions.

With that said, the problems that *I've* seen on this forum haven't come from those afore-mentioned parents. They come from antagonistic people who wish to tell us non-vaxxers that we are negligent, piggy-bagging-on-the-backs-of-our-vaccinated-neighbors, smelly pinko commie hippys.

I want anyone--no matter what their decisions are--to feel comfortable asking questions here. I do NOT want to feel like I have to defend my very informed decisions on *the* natural living discussion board.

Ultimately I'm pro informed consent. I do wish we had a policy in place for dealing with deliberately antagonistic people.

[Ruthla]

I think if this board was "the case against vaccinations" we wouldn't get as many visitors (but I'm sure the trolls would still arrive.)

There's quite a bit of leeway between "never vaccinating whatsoever" and "vaccinating on schedual without question." There's delayed vax, selective vax, people who give all the "required" vax but have questions about the "optional" ones, etc.

I happen to like "the purpose of this forum" and would like to see it remain the same.

[townmouse]

I just wish there could be more guidelines for newbies.

Such as...you may not ask these questions unless you've searched the archives first, and the Q's with an asterisk may never be asked at all:

1. * I just don't get it. Why NOT vax???
2. *Don't you love your children enough to protect them???
3. What about polio?
4. My ped. says flu/CP/WC can KILL children.
5. I was vaxed and I'm fine. What's your problem?
6. *You were all vaxed and you're fine, what's your problem?
7. Please show me convincing studies from reliable sources only.
8. You all are just riding on herd immunity.
9. *anything related to needle-phobia as a legit. reason for nonvax
10. There is no mercury anymore and it never caused AS disorders anyway.

See, newbies come here with extremely lame arguments, and MT(may she live forever) wears herself out taking the time again to cut and paste one of her old books or write a new one. Which affects me cuz then she's too wiped out to answer my yearly Q's about pertussis and sodium ascorbate :p .

I just would like folks to search first, then ask. And not waste time and bandwidth with 'common-sense' one-liners about the virtues of vaxing and the ignorance of not.

OTOH I think it should remain a debate board out of respect for the 1000's (probably) who have begun their education here, and the 1000's who will follow in their footsteps.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Um...Way to derail my thread! :p I think we can still discuss this even if nothing comes out of it.

Sorry, I didn't mean to. I tried to discuss this two years ago, and ran a marathon for nothing. It's a no-goer, and no matter how much its discussed we are chasing out tails.

So there is no doubt on both counts, that this thread will be nixed AND that pro-vax will continue their normal MO.

[curlyfry]

You live and learn, I guess...

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I do wish we had a policy in place for dealing with deliberately antagonistic people.We do.

It's called inform the moderator.

A policy I'm not prepared to implement, since to me, that is playground behaviour. I hate narks, and I'm not about to become one myself.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

MT wears herself out taking the time again to cut and paste one of her old books or write a new one. Which affects me cuz then she's too wiped out to answer my yearly Q's about pertussis and sodium ascorbate :p .

Well, right now, the wiped outness is caused becasue I've had nausea for nearly a month (all part of the joys of impending menopause) and this week its been atrocious, and I'm walking around with a bucket. My blood pressure has dropped and that's causing vertigo too.

And yes, then the trolls come around, and well, at least that causes temporary blood pressure rise, fixes the vertigo, but the brain gaskets go instead :nut and all I want to do is :hammer and then I get in trouble with admin for being nasty, so I can't win, see?

And sometimes I wonder why I do bother too. Particularly today, as today, red tent has arrive, I'm bleeding like a stuck pig, carrying a bucket and if I saw a troll today, probably both they (and I) would die in the resultant flame fest.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

We do.

It's called inform the moderator.

A policy I'm not prepared to implement, since to me, that is playground behaviour. I hate narks, and I'm not about to become one myself.

In terms of deliberate real trolls...

My personal philosophy is that if people come here to dish out, they should expect to be called on it.

The problem is that the nark policy penalises the responder on the board. Sure, they instigator may get banned, but they are of little value to the board anyway... but the responders are usually the valuable members of the community, and if they get pinged for defending the board against narks is part of the irony of the function of the rule.

The other problem is regular members who get away with it, and that's simply because there aren't enough hours in the day for the zookeeper to read everything.

So some people get confidence from the fact that they do get away with it, and that is why the nark policy was instituted, becuase a mod can't be expected to see everything so rely on narks to keep it civil.

So that puts people in a bind. Do they be a nark themselves, or reserve the right to fight it out in public?

I think its an issue that will never be resolved because of the way the board functions. And that there are narks on this board, but I'm not one of them.

Fortunately for us, the zookeeper here uses a loose rein, and understand the fundamental flaw of the nark policy.

However, that still doesn't assist the cranial realignment required after the earthquakes that happen when people come to liberally shoot whichever duck appears on the horizon...

[SleeplessMommy]

When the default social and cultural position is pro-vax then any informed discussion will necessarily err on the anti-vax side.

However, since the current medical establishment and health policy bureaucracy actually encourages an uninformed pro vax position, it is possible to have an debate about informed vaccination that looks at the reasons (medical, political, economic and social) that doctors, scientists, policymakers support vaccination. What is not necessary, IMO, is to provide an additional forum to air the superficial vax propaganda passed out at the ped's office, that does not provide any real information.

But, I agree strongly with the pp that you will not get that real information from a debate. You really do have to read it yourself.

I am probably one of the posters that some here may consider an "anti-vax troll". All because of one post that answered a specific question that someone asked! I support the right of the parents to choose weather or not to vax their child. I.E. I am on your side. Yet I post something someone does not like, and get called a troll.
Probably the reason MDC has a "discussion of vax" forum instead of an "anti-vax" forum is that there are many situations where vaccination is medically necessary. Not just to the "mainstream" medical community but also to the "AP" community and even to the "anti-vax community."
Here are a few examples of when vaxing might be a "calculated risk" that a parent takes because they believe it is in the best interests of their child, and the benefits outweight the risks:
* child bitten by animal that might be rabid, can't catch animal
* premature baby at increased risk of RSV
* child has family member with compromised immune system (HIV infection, cancer, etc)
* child has near-term plans to travel to a developing country
* child expects to go into medical or dental profession (some vaxing will be required for these professions... vaxing at age 18, while still on parents medical insurance could save hundreds of doillars.)
* family member living in the home has hepatitis B, a highly contagious!

We do not live in a perfect world. Many children fall into the above categories. Do you want the MDC community to support only some families... or everyone? I think informed discussion of vaxing is appropriate. This can include discussion of timing of vax, separation of vax, risks and benefits, etc.

-Sleepless Mommy

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I would not flame you for that. That isn't trolling Sleepless Mommy.

I'm not sure you understand what trolling really is, if you think you are one.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Trolls can be incredibly polite. Their function is to deliberately politely with intent, either spam with opinion, or ask stupid questions in order to keep people busy for all hours of night, when they have more productive things to do. The "motive" for all real trolls isn't to become informed, but to create mayhem. And they can do it by constant needling, by constantly arguing the point for the sake of it.... Eosine was the best troll we ever had. She was repeatedly banned, and had 10 identities before she gave up.

Each time she'd last may a month and spam with hundreds of one liner questions which drove everyone insane... she even bragged on her website about what she was doing...

The nicest troll was Gyr. I got to learn a lot of Greek history from him/her...

But there are other trolls here who are also the master of proxy servers, which makes it very hard for admin to ban them, since they can't be proven to have double or triple identities either.

[Sasha_girl]

I think if this board was "the case against vaccinations" we wouldn't get as many visitors (but I'm sure the trolls would still arrive.)

Perhaps. I can only speak for myself, but I've been avoiding this forum because of all of the baiting, rude remarks made against non-vaxxers. I get it all the time IRL and elsewhere on the 'net. I don't need it here, too.

I'm sure there are others, in however many numbers, who feel the same way.

[LongIsland]

I'm sure there are others, in however many numbers, who feel the same way.

:nod
There are others.

If this forum were to morph into a vaccine debate board, I would avoid this forum like the plague (pun intended).

[curlyfry]

:nod
There are others.

If this forum were to morph into a vaccine debate board, I would avoid this forum like the plague (pun intended).

:wave: Me too. I get enough of that IRL.

[Plummeting]

Probably the reason MDC has a "discussion of vax" forum instead of an "anti-vax" forum is that there are many situations where vaccination is medically necessary. Not just to the "mainstream" medical community but also to the "AP" community and even to the "anti-vax community."
Here are a few examples of when vaxing might be a "calculated risk" that a parent takes because they believe it is in the best interests of their child, and the benefits outweight the risks:
* child bitten by animal that might be rabid, can't catch animal
* premature baby at increased risk of RSV
* child has family member with compromised immune system (HIV infection, cancer, etc)
* child has near-term plans to travel to a developing country
* child expects to go into medical or dental profession (some vaxing will be required for these professions... vaxing at age 18, while still on parents medical insurance could save hundreds of doillars.)
* family member living in the home has hepatitis B, a highly contagious!
-Sleepless Mommy

These are not considered "medically necessary" to everyone. Vaccines are never, ever, ever "medically necessary" IMO. And some of the reasons you gave are downright far-fetched. You don't have to vax to be in any profession. There are exemptions just like any other. I would never vax my premature baby - talk about increased risk of vax reactions! I don't believe traveling to a devloping country means my DD needs vaxes. And I think a compromised immune system shouldn't be even more taxed with vaccines.

I would never, ever, ever criticize someone for deciding that they did want to vaccinate their child, for whatever reason. However, you're completely wrong to assume that everyone feels there are times when vaccinations are "medically necessary". Completely wrong.

[Jen123]

You see, sleeplessmommy (great name btw) , although I disagree with you , you just said your piece quietly , didn't call anyone names , you are willing to listen to us to see WHY we don't think vaxes are ever medically necessary , and willing to look at our links /books /scientific data. If I posted something out of date , you'd tell me "that was out of date do you have anything newer?" and likewise I'd do it to you. "Okay...that study was done in the 70's , here's what they said two years ago."

We can end with "we disagree" but we both get something out of the discussion. We LEARN from each other.

Now if you came here telling us we are awful horrible people because we don't vax for these reasons...then the thread would deteroriate. And quickly.

I agree that the purpose of the forum should change.

I also think we need to respond to newbies with "read thru the archives and then come back with relevant questions."

[cam&kat's_mom]

Well if no one minds (and even if you do mind) I'll share what it's liek for a newbie to come on here.

AS a newbie who is still struggling to learn about VAx it is quite frightening adn very intimidating to come into this forum. Some of us have legitimate uestions and are not trolls. We lurk for a while and REALLY want to ask questins but just don't dare. The way we see people, even long time members, get slammed around here (not just this forum eitehr) but several places on Mothering. there really is a wonderful thing here on this site, there is a wealth of knowledge and valuabel information that quite franlky is more scarey to try and tap into than the thought of gettign a VAX! Honestly, i have had a slew of questions and thoughts that I wanted help sifting through that people on mainstream sites just dont' get or have no real opinion on. So i found this site and hoped that it would be strong willed, intelligent adn resourceful women that had done some research and would help those if us wanting to learn but unsure of where to begin. instead you find nasty comments back and forth stating how horribel something is. OBVIOUSLY if you are ANTI VAX you are going to point out that it shoudl never be done. But that simply isn't what we are looking to hear. We are lookign to learn. to have a case against it. Saying that VAX can kill more than they can help, does nothign for me just like someone saying "well my DR said to " does nothign for you. If newbies aren't welcome here then membership ought ot be closed, and you long term mamas can have each other and keep arguing and have no positive effect (that some of you really do have0 on teh rest of us that are trying to learn. It is incredibly exhausting to search through those archives to look for answers (as i have spent hours) and stil have a million questions! Because the information is not plain and simple. Nothing is black and white (as nothing in life ever is) So have a little bit of understanding when a newbie comes along and asks a question tha thas asked 100x. A simple reply stating that " info that may be what you are looking for is found HERE (with a link), feel free to ask any more questions you may have after you read." That is far better and more useful to us than the quote "read teh archives" casue that is not helpful at ALL! Several of you are especially helpful by quoting past posts and linking and rewriting and it is greatly appreciated. But the bickering among others that cloud the post of the question just make it more inviting for trolls.
Oh and changing the name to teh case against VAX or anything liek that is a bad idea IMO. Cause anyoen that hasn't made a case against VAX will not come seeking advice and your wisdom. All that will come are trolls that want to stir trouble and then leave. it's liek having a Women Only sign on a restroom and expecting that a man might go in and ask for teh location of thmen's room. It just isn't gonna happen.
Sorry this got wordy, I appreciate those that made it all teh way through it, and sorry for my spelling. i have littel hands helping me type!

[julieann199930]

The Vaccinations Board is neither pro-vax nor anti-vax.
We know it can be a volatile subject. It has been one of controversy for decades.
It is intended to be a safe place to discuss the pros and cons of the issue, so please be respectful of each other’s choices.

:)

This is mainly an anti-vax board and I don't have a problem with that. However I understand other parents right to choose to vax, so I don't go off on them as I have vaxed in the past as well. Its their choice, not mine. If they ask a question about vaxing, those of us who have vaxed should be able to help them.

julie

[NYCVeg]

I hope it's okay that I chime in here--I'm also a sometime lurker who is usually too intimidated to post. ITA agree with everything that cam&kat's mom said. I also wanted to add...

For many, particularly those of us who are new to the vaccine issue, there is a middle ground--delayed and/or selective vaccination. That's why I think pro/anti is a little difficult in this forum. I think it would be more helpful (to people like me and others, who are new to and struggling with this issue and also have partners with opinions to consider) that the forum provide a place where we can move AWAY from the vaccine schedule that the AAP recommends without necessarily feeling attacked if we don't just say NO VAX completely. As with many things (BFing, for one), helping people to take baby steps, despite your passion for the issue, often does much more good in the name of education than militance. I am, in theory, a militant BF advocate--but particularly for unsure people who look to me for info, I think an all-or-nothing approach is more likely to alienate others from ANY bfing, rather than helping them come to see things "my" way.

[townmouse]

For M. Tuatara: :coffee (that's not coffee, its something organically herbal :) ) hope you get thru this phase quick.

cam&kat, thanks for weighing in! I started with my vax decisions 'long time ago, before I had internet access.

For a good crash course:

From your library, get How to Raise a Healthy Child in Spite of Your Doctor by Dr. Mendelssohn

Then read the sticky at the top of this forum about 'can we make an archive thread'

Then find out the recommended vaxes in your state.

Come here and do a search on each, maybe setting aside two hours per week for reading. Take notes about each disease, such as symptoms of it, risks of the disease, risks of the vax, what to do if your child gets it. (and rather suddenly you will have all this info, and understanding of lingo, and your searches will be more sophisticated and yield more pertinent results)

And remember, you can delay vaxes. You CAN'T unvax. You have time to study.

You don't have to agree with us to be a 'good mother'. But I humbly suggest that being informed is always a good choice! Welcome to the board.

[curlyfry]

Well if no one minds (and even if you do mind) I'll share what it's liek for a newbie to come on here.

Don't mind at all!

OBVIOUSLY if you are ANTI VAX you are going to point out that it shoudl never be done. But that simply isn't what we are looking to hear. We are lookign to learn. to have a case against it. Saying that VAX can kill more than they can help, does nothign for me just like someone saying "well my DR said to " does nothign for you.

But you will more often than not get sources to back up what someone says here. I know long time members make sure of that, so that it DOESN'T get twisted.

If newbies aren't welcome here then membership ought ot be closed, and you long term mamas can have each other and keep arguing and have no positive effect

Nobody ever said newbies weren't welcome here! There's just a tried and tested way to get your questions answered. Search the archives, then post any clarification you need. I mean, you can even be honest and say that you searched the archives and are confused and people will be more than happy to clarify. I know this because I was in those shoes a while back.

But the bickering among others that cloud the post of the question just make it more inviting for trolls.

The trolls instigate the bickering. That is where my frustration stems from.

Listen...I don't know if this thread is coming across right. I have no problem with newbies coming and asking questions. My problem is with the wording of the Forum Guidelines...

:Peace

[stayathomecristi]

Just a thought and I haven't followed it to it's logical conclusion yet, but if this board is supposed to be neutral, what if we had a subforum JUST for people who fully vax and want to get their point of view across? Maybe they could list all their studies and facts there. I dunno if it would be helpful or counter-productive, it was just a thought.

TBH--I wish this was strictly an anti-vax forum. I agree with pp's that there is plenty of pro-vax info, forums, etc out there and that non-vaxxers need the info and support here. Places like this are few and far between.

MT--I hope that you are feeling MUCH BETTER soon!

[curlyfry]

Take some time to rest, MT!!!



Come here and do a search on each, maybe setting aside two hours per week for reading. .

:lol I should take your advice! I spend way too much time here!


For many, particularly those of us who are new to the vaccine issue, there is a middle ground--delayed and/or selective vaccination. That's why I think pro/anti is a little difficult in this forum. I think it would be more helpful (to people like me and others, who are new to and struggling with this issue and also have partners with opinions to consider) that the forum provide a place where we can move AWAY from the vaccine schedule that the AAP recommends without necessarily feeling attacked if we don't just say NO VAX completely. As with many things (BFing, for one), helping people to take baby steps, despite your passion for the issue, often does much more good in the name of education than militance. I am, in theory, a militant BF advocate--but particularly for unsure people who look to me for info, I think an all-or-nothing approach is more likely to alienate others from ANY bfing, rather than helping them come to see things "my" way.

There is a subforum for selective/delayed vax although I saw some tumbleweeds over there...:p

You make some good points. I don't know that it should be completely 100% anti-vax. Although I wouldn't mind that, I can see how it might deter people who are just starting to delve into vaccinations.

I do not however think that the same pro-vax crap that we find on every other website should be welcome here, and 100% pro-vaxers are using the wording of the Forum Guidelines to push their agenda. This is Mothering.com, I just hate that I have to defend my decision NOT to vacinate here.

[jessicaSAR]

For many, particularly those of us who are new to the vaccine issue, there is a middle ground--delayed and/or selective vaccination. That's why I think pro/anti is a little difficult in this forum. I think it would be more helpful (to people like me and others, who are new to and struggling with this issue and also have partners with opinions to consider) that the forum provide a place where we can move AWAY from the vaccine schedule that the AAP recommends without necessarily feeling attacked if we don't just say NO VAX completely. As with many things (BFing, for one), helping people to take baby steps, despite your passion for the issue, often does much more good in the name of education than militance.

I agree with this, but remember almost all of us were in exactly this same position. I didn't know anything when I first posted two years ago, but whatever intimidation I might have felt was outweighed by my desire for information. I think new posters are treated grandly here. You are not treated like an idiot as you are in the drs office, but rather as someone who is capable of understanding and assimilating some difficult information. It is continual baiting without real discussion that gets the hackles up here. In my experience the regulars here are too busy helping people to waste time on superficial provocation.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

C&K'smom,

Actually I agree with you, that the archives here aren't a good place to start. They are like attacking a pile of library books, some with irrelevant covers, many of which contain irrelevant comments which you spend hours wading through until you either run out of energy, or finally get to the two cents worth that you wanted.

I want to go back a bit. As you know, I'm a 40-headed dragon, and can post a photo if you don't believe me.

When I started along this road in 1981, there was no-one to talk to at all. There was no internet, no ability to mouse hunt, and everything was found very much the hard hard way.

Now you have a new problem. Mouse hunting is very easy, but it can lead you into a lot of useless traps, chases up garden paths and red herrings. Part of the problem is that people don't know enough of the language to know how to search adequately.

I think in a sense 40-headed dragons like me have an advantage, in that we had to sit down and slowly plough our way through that stuff called "paper" and books, with dictionary in one hand, pen in the other and rapidly greying hair in the middle.

But we do have the advantage in that firstly, we know the language, and secondly, I think the old research skills are still way more valuable than the new ones that result in what I see as functional illiteracy in many adolescents in school today.

So a lot of us have done the hard yards. People like me, were also once staunchly pro-vaccine because we never thought about it until something pulled us up and made us actually put the part of the brain that was on "default mode" into "investigate mode".

From my persective have you ever known me to be rude to someone who is respectful? Like this lady for instance?

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=396685

I am only too willing to answer questions, if the asker respects that those of us who answer the questions do have good reasons for not vaxxing.

Here are things that frustrate me from newbies. Comments like:

"Tell me what to do!"
"This is too hard!"
"Tell me what you think of..."
And all the sorts of comments as above said by others.

It is too hard to answer a generic question which has no reference point. Catchthewind asked the right question, because she realised what was needed to make a decision, and she narrowed down the issue so that we didn't have to write tomes.

I don't think newbies should take any notice of comments or opinions of others.

If you have a question, you should ask. BUT....

Let's use an example. Say you've just been told that you have to have a TB test, so what is the way you think that through?

One poste came here and said..."They said I have to, what is it, and is it safe?"

So some thinking is going on, but its not logical.

If the thinking process has got as far as questioning the safety but not yet knowing what the test is, why hasn't the thinkinbg process asked the question as to WHETHER it true that they have to have the test, and why hasn't the OP found out WHAT the test is?

This is where I see technology as being a minus, because suddenly, in lieu of people using skills and finding out what they want to do, they have a help-desk mentality which says... "Oh, it would be easier for me, (like firing off a text message) to go to mothering and get someone to answer my questions for me."

I'm sorry, but where people consistently do that, it really gets up my nose.

The first thing so-called intelligent people should do in a technologically adept society is this:

1) Find out what the test is, and who manufactures it.
2) Go to the manufacturer's website and read the blurb on it, or do a google search using the test name, and manufacturers bit to get the right sites.

3) Check with their state to find out if indeed the test is mandatory, or whether there are exemptions, or whether in fact, they were told a load of bull.

ONLY then, if they have questions, should they come here, and then at least they could tell us what they have found out, and what exactly it is they need to know.

Now, some will consider that idealistic and unrealistic, but why is it unrealistic? As I said, this is supposedly the technology age of ease of finding information yet it seems to me that people understand the concept of finding out stuff, less and less.

That riles me, because they are happy for me to spend the hours to provide the stuff they should have found for themselves.

And if someone comes back and says to me,... "But people don't know how to, or don't think to, so you should." My answer is "Why? If people know know how to whose fault is that? And if people don't think to even do all the basics they do with a toaster, car or pair of shoes, why do they get upset when told to?"

There are many sides to the equation, and one of them is that newbies surely must understand that they might only have spent a few hours here. I might have spent the equivalent of 6 months here answering questions.

For whose benefit? Mine?

No.

So when people come here, they are asking people to take a slice out of their lives, often to do things which I do feel they should have started to tackle themselves.

If they see some of us nerds getting pissy, perhaps they should back up and ask themselves, why it is that parents who have saved themselves the heartache of going through what Mommyto3girls has gone through, stay here. They stay here because they care.

I've just spent the morning going over final arguments for a case, as well help helping out a couple who came to the house to ask questions, and who took off with a heap of books. It is ironic, don't you think, that I, someone who has two kids 24, 22, who doesn't vax, would take the time to come here and answer questions.

Newbies can't know it of course, unless they've lurked here for a while, but in the five years I've been here, I have been bashed up, coshed, pilloried, slandered and spat at so many times, that though I have a very thick skin, there are times when I feel "If one more person asks a question like that they are going to get it between the eyes!"

That's very unfair, because that one person doesn't know why I'm now white haired. or that I have a husband who says "Why do you even bother in the first place, can't we have a life?"

I stay here, because I care.

I answer questions, because I care.

But if I feel that questioners are being demanding, whining (meaning getting on my case, and being an irritant), particularly when I'm feeling as lousy as I have for this last week, people just might get one right back.

I am human. I spend hours here, and I do my best when I am able. But I'm not a God, and I make mistakes.

The problem is, mistakes aren't tolerated are they? It feels to me sometimes like all the politeness, niceness and largesse has to come from me, while the questioners sometimes feel its their right to tie everyone up here with questions that will last forever.

So its a very difficult situation on some days. Most times I just bite it and say "This newbie doesn't understand what we have gone through to get this far" and try to be helpful. I might just put up links, and then I've sometimes been criticised for being terse and not explaining it myself.

There is a sense in which we can be damned if we do, and damned if we done.

One day, if you read as much as I have, and come to the position I'm in, you will see the irony of the situation and sit there going :nod: because you will know exactly what I mean.

Now... I have to go, becuase Mommyto3girls doc has just emailed me and asked me to send him everything I know on..... :D

Tis true, and life goes on.

I'll be back shortly, but first, I have to go help one of you guys off the board.

Okay?

[cam&kat's_mom]

First of all I want to clarify to say that I dont' feel al peopel here are mean to newbies or unwelcoming. And i agree that i have seen some new people that post questions that are not informative or basically just seem to rag on people with well formed opinions and research to back it up.

And thank you MT for giving me a solid point of view on the hours and work that goes into researching somethign that you are passionate about and for caring. I have searched the archives and taken several steps that you have mentioned and my next step is talking ot our ped about our decision. Because I am not comfortable just putting him off by saying later, later. When i finish my research and have a solid enough of a foundataion to say "this is what I'm doing/not doing" then i will approach him with the matter inhopes to avoid all the fiasco that others seem tom be facing. I truly admire you and your dedication to this board and your honesty and sometimes bluntness, but it always is respectful, at least what i have seen of it. We newbies learn a lot from you old timers (not being mean here) and it truly is valuable. My only desire would be to see more helpful replies or direction, rather than bickering amongst posters that doesn't necessarily involve teh OP. Sorry off topic..

also I wanted to say I liek the wording that someone mentioned above. I understood coming to this board what Mothering was about (the Mag) but not all peopel know that coming here. Some just search for motehring and forums or message boards. Dont' bother to read teh description and just start posting. I came specifically looking for not Anti vax propaganda. or VAX propaganda. I was looking for research, studies, opinions and real lif eexamples.... all of wich I have gotten. I wasn't looking for a support group, and in all reality there truly are more pro vax sites out there than anti or informed decisions. But there are also a bunch of sites that just say "oh it's bad, awfu lthing to do , so never do it" Without anything to back it, so if one doesnt'[ stumble upon Mothering. They may never get informed people posting about their experiences and will go with the mainstream. And is all they see when they arrive her is bickering then they are still gonna follow teh mainstream and think we're all loonies who like to fight with each other here !
but al in all . thank you for al the info youhave exposed me to.. I'm going back to lurkign until i have a question or somethign else worth saying . I won't pretend to have any answers... :) :blah

[NYCVeg]

I agree with this, but remember almost all of us were in exactly this same position. I didn't know anything when I first posted two years ago, but whatever intimidation I might have felt was outweighed by my desire for information. I think new posters are treated grandly here. You are not treated like an idiot as you are in the drs office, but rather as someone who is capable of understanding and assimilating some difficult information. It is continual baiting without real discussion that gets the hackles up here. In my experience the regulars here are too busy helping people to waste time on superficial provocation.

Just wanted to clarify--I definitely didn't mean to imply that I think newbies are generally treated badly! (Although, when the discussion DOES get aggressive, it can be a little scary for those who haven't come to definitive conclusions about vax/selective vax/no vax/etc. :o ) I was really addressing the original question, and explaining why I think the forum SHOULD at least allow for a middle ground/questioning position. That doesn't mean I think people should come here and accuse people of not caring about their children if they don't vax or calling non-vaxers uneducated or anything like that (any more than I think people should go to the GD forum and talk about effective spanking was for them--that's simply not the place).

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

cam&kat's mom.

I don't mind being called an old-timer.

Once, instead of Senior member, I had underneath my name, the letter OGN, DMWM.

You are welcome to PM me and ask if that would help you. Sometimes people just need to be turned around 43.5 degrees and said "See that?"

Whether or not you will avoid dramas that others have here, really depends on two things, the first and most important is whether your paediatrician knows how to listen, and has respect for the concept of choice, and the second is, how well you did your homework...

[SneakyPie]

I like the forum the way it is. I won't get het up about it if it changes, but I like it purporting to be neither pro- nor anti-. I hear what the "regulars" are saying about answering similar questions over and over but, honestly, cry me a river -- if someone doesn't want to answer a post for whatever reason, she doesn't have to. Posting a list of questions that no one had better ever ask because someone else has responded to them in previous posts -- I guess so, but I've never looked at any discussion forum as a place to go for All The Answers, so if any person wants to come in here and ask any reasonable question she wants and engage with whomever wishes to reply (and nobody is obligated to), I don't see a thing wrong with it. (FAQs, sure, if somebody wants to put the effort in.) If we were to count the hundreds of times a mother has posted "My 6-week-old won't sleep!!!!!" in the Life w/a Babe forum . . .

[nichole]

I think the purpose of this forum might need to change. It is misleading. IF mothering is against vaccinations, then just call the forum "The Case Against Vaccinations." Maybe mothering isn't for or against vaccinations, but most of it's members and readers do not vaccinate on schedule? The last article i read in mothering (and i admit i do not have a subscription), had an article about alluminum in vaccines. Also there was a story about a vaccine injured child. It was a while ago and I can't remember the specific details about whether this was one article or two separate ones, but I do remember it just laying out the facts and urging the parent to make the best choice they can with the information they have. By no means did it come right out and say vaccinations are wrong in every circumstance. It was just for an informed choice. I'm just really confused. Is this a debate forum or a support forum or both? If it is unofficially anti-vax, who decided this? just curious!

I think this is a great forum for people who do not vaccinate, those who choose delayed/selective vaccinations, and even those who vaccinate on schedule. Obviously there have been trolls in the past who post one inflammatory message and then never come back, but other than that why should other opinions not be allowed? A pro-vax poster is obviously going to be outnumbered, and any incorrect info will be corrected.

If people are asking the same questions over and over perhaps we need a sticky. Maybe we have one I do not know about? I will go check. But it could have a list of books, articles, and helpful websites. As far as an FAQ goes, I don't know how we would do that, because who would write it? Vaccinations is a controversial subject and everyone has their bias.

For those that want this to be a anti-vax forum, do you think opinions should be allowed such as "I am only doing one vaccine X and this is why." or "I want to vaccinate on schedule but I am curious whether or not to do the flu shot or chicken pox shot?" I did a poll a while ago and many posters voted that they vax on a delayed or selective schedule. If so many posters feel that the best thing for their child is to inject them with "poison" as it has been put, why should this be an anti-vax forum. I understand what the other posters are saying especially people who feel strongly anti-vax. You certainly have a right to your opinions. Hopefully they will help many people! just my 2 cents.

[Sasha_girl]

I have to say that I like the idea of a vaccine debate sub-forum. But seriously--I've got three kids. My computer time is limited. If I have to wade through dozens of posts like those that OnTheFence makes then I'm just going to leave the computer off.

What does that mean? Not a hill of beans to most. But I am resentful whenever my "safe" place on the 'net is hijacked.

[SleeplessMommy]

These are not considered "medically necessary" to everyone. Vaccines are never, ever, ever "medically necessary" IMO. And some of the reasons you gave are downright far-fetched. You don't have to vax to be in any profession. There are exemptions just like any other. I would never vax my premature baby - talk about increased risk of vax reactions! I don't believe traveling to a devloping country means my DD needs vaxes. And I think a compromised immune system shouldn't be even more taxed with vaccines.

I would never, ever, ever criticize someone for deciding that they did want to vaccinate their child, for whatever reason. However, you're completely wrong to assume that everyone feels there are times when vaccinations are "medically necessary". Completely wrong.

A clarification...

In the case of a family (household) member with cancer undergoing chemo, an infection in the child such as flu, mumps, chicken pox, etc could be life threatening for the medically fragile adult. I am not talking about vaxing an immune suppressed individual.

Vaccination of a child because a household member has Hep B is not far fetched. One of the mothers in this group stated she has done this.

And vax before international travel. My DS has grandparents, religious, and cultural ties to a developing country. Many members of MDC are in the situation. We took him for 2 months to visit relatives, and yes we did vax first.

I don't think my list of situations where one might reasonably vax a child is far-fetched.

To the Moms participating in the discussion of VAX: are you here to support ALL moms looking for information on VAX, or just those who have healthy families, don't have Hep B, and are never going to leave the country? We all want to do whats best for our children.

[Plummeting]

I don't think my list of situations where one might reasonably vax a child is far-fetched.

To the Moms participating in the discussion of VAX: are you here to support ALL moms looking for information on VAX, or just those who have healthy families, don't have Hep B, and are never going to leave the country? We all want to do whats best for our children.

I never said your entire list was far-fetched. I specifically said that *some* of the reasons you gave were far-fetched. I should have been more clear, because I was only really referring to the statement you made that vaccinations were "required" for the medical profession, which is false. You can get an exemption for those vaccines just like any other.

As far as your question goes... I think everyone here is supporting others with information. Your ideas of when it is a necessity to vaccinate aren't in line with the facts that many of us have learned about diseases. Therefore, for you to say we're only supporting people who have healthy families, aren't Hep B+ and will never leave the country is a question that doesn't even make sense. I don't believe you have to vaccinate just because you're traveling to a developing country - that is your opinion. I don't believe you have to vaccinate just because someone in your family has HIV or cancer - that is your opinion. I don't believe you have to vaccinate just because someone in your household has Hep B - that is your opinion.

The problem with your question is that you are confusing an opinion with an absolute fact. You believe that everyone in those situations absolutely must be vaccinated, therefore, you can't understand how anyone who is "anti-vax" could possibly be supportive of people in those situations. Your belief, however, is only your opinion.

Besides, another big mistake you're making is in thinking that everyone here is "anti-vax", which also isn't the case! I think most people here are "pro informed consent", which isn't what is happening in most of the world today. I couldn't care less if someone else decides to vaccinate their children. I will say this for the hundredth time: If you want to vaccinate your child, that is a perfectly acceptable decision and I would never judge you for it. That does not, however, mean that I have to agree with your conclusions or decisions.

Do you agree with every single thing every person around you does? No, because no one does. But when you disagree, do you feel that you are being unsupportive, just because you don't agree with them? I would hope not. Disagreeing with someone does not = being unsupportive or working against them. It just = disagreeing, nothing more. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand. When a friend of yours chooses to formula feed for no good reason, are you automatically "against" them just because you don't agree with their decision? If a friend of yours is a different religion than you, are you "unsupportive" because you don't agree with their religious choices? How is this issue any different? I can support you without agreeing with you.

[mamakay]

Being nit-picky here, but there's no vax for RSV, either. :Peace

[cravenab00]

Being nit-picky here, but there's no vax for RSV, either. :Peace


no there isnt a vax, but there is an immune globulin ( i think that is what it is called) called Synergis. It is given once a month for 6 month to the "high risk" group.

[nichole]

Besides, another big mistake you're making is in thinking that everyone here is "anti-vax", which also isn't the case! I think most people here are "pro informed consent", which isn't what is happening in most of the world today.



:thumb absolutely!

[mamakay]

For those that want this to be a anti-vax forum, do you think opinions should be allowed such as "I am only doing one vaccine X and this is why." or "I want to vaccinate on schedule but I am curious whether or not to do the flu shot or chicken pox shot?"
I don't know if I exactly want this to strictly be an antivax forum, but I'm gonna answer anyway.
:)
There is a huge difference between someone saying "I'm thinking of doing vaccine X and this is why" and "You all are just spreading lies!"
And if someone posts that they've decided to do a certain vax, of course it should be "allowed", but they have to expect that people who've decided differently might ask why, or say "Have you thought about this?"
I, personally, question other people about their choices because I always assume they might have thought something through more thouroughly than I have. I like to pick people's brains.
I don't just mindlessly absorb other people's opinions, but I do take inspiration from other people's thought processes, and then fact check everything to see if it holds water, so to speak.
That's just one of my methods.:)
I think healthy, respectful, common sense and science based debate is always mutually advantageous.
And I don't think anyone here, even the most "extreme" on the spectrum, really feel terribly differently.
But I could be wrong. I can't really speak for others.
But that's the 'vibe' I've always gotten here.

[LongIsland]

There is a huge difference between someone saying "I'm thinking of doing vaccine X and this is why" and "You all are just spreading lies!"


:thumb

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

There is a huge difference between someone saying "I'm thinking of doing vaccine X and this is why" and "You all are just spreading lies!":thumb.

[Jen123]

Just a thought and I haven't followed it to it's logical conclusion yet, but if this board is supposed to be neutral, what if we had a subforum JUST for people who fully vax and want to get their point of view across? Maybe they could list all their studies and facts there. I dunno if it would be helpful or counter-productive, it was just a thought.


That would be sooo sad. This is Mothering.com...known for it's alternatives views on raising kids. If we were going to cowtow to include a provax forum...we might as well include , spanking , formula feeding , disposable diapering , processed foods (instead of organic), pro-circ'ing , etc.... This is a place for us to seek alternative views on everything.

TBH--I wish this was strictly an anti-vax forum. I agree with pp's that there is plenty of pro-vax info, forums, etc out there and that non-vaxxers need the info and support here. Places like this are few and far between.

Yup. I agree ! If pro-vaxers want a place of their own , they have them all over the net.

As to the selective/delayed vaxers....they go thru a lot of the same pain non-vaxers do because they aren't "mainstream".

[Sasha_girl]

Jen123 has hit the nail on the proverbial head for me.

It's not that I want to draw a line in the sand. No vax/full vax. I don't want to disrespect anyone's decisions. I come here, to MDC, believing that most make their decisions--even the ones that I don't "get"--out of love and a sincere attempt to raise whole, complete, happy children. There's no how-to manual a la Babywise or even Spock, there's no one way to do it. There's no "this is how things have always been done so this is how we do them". Those attitudes are challenged here. I'm so glad for it, personally.

So what is bothering me with the vax forum is not that people come to different conclusions. What is bothering me is that a place that is, to me, nearly sacred wrt being able to let go of what society tells you to do "just because" and question the answers is oftentimes becoming just the same old parenting message boards with the same old tired "I vaccinate because I care about my children" lines.

I just expect better of this place.

I don't care if you vaccinate because Great Aunt Mildred had polio and the thought of your kids contracting it terrifies you. I don't care if you vaccinate because your husband has an immune disorder and the measles could kill him. I don't care if you vaccinate because you are more comfortable doing so than not. I truly don't. I just ask that the same respect--that I am an intelligent, caring parent--be shown in return. I am *not* getting that much of the time these days.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I was thinking through what you were saying Sasha, and it's ironic really. I agree so much with your last paragraph, and couldn't agree more and was wondering why that isn't so.

I've read some extraordinary threads here with people talking about how broad minded they are, the sort of things they tolerate (which by the way, I would not, but I'd never comment on it) and then in the very next breath a non-vaxxing parent can be told their are acting like idiots.

I think its ironic that sometimes its a society that talks about how tolerant and respectful they are, can also not see that they can equally behave in a reverse manner.

If they believe their comments are out of concern for our children how would they feel if I used their same arguements against practices which I consider outside a responsible parent's orbit?

[Cynthia Mosher]

I've removed this thread from Vaccinations and placed it in Questions and Suggestions. Issues, problems, suggestions and questions that members have regarding forum rules guidelines purpose and other such things belong only in Questions and Suggestions. Posting threads of this nature in other forums is in violation of our UA which states:

You are expected to avoid the following when you post:

...6. Posting to debate or criticize the MDC User Agreement, or to otherwise discuss the moderators, administrators, or their actions. Constructive criticism and questions for purposes of clarification may be sent through the Private Message feature or by email to the moderator or administrator.

7. Posting to discuss the statements or behavior of a member or members on the board, or to criticize another discussion on the boards. Such issues should be directed to the moderator or administrator privately and not made a subject of discussion in a thread.

I will review the thread in full and respond as soon as I can. Until I can do so I am closing the thread. Thanks for your understanding and patience.

[Cynthia Mosher]

It seems that people are using the wording of this to come in here and spread pro-vax propaganda and I'm just not o.k. with that. You can find pro-vax information all over the www. Why does Mothering.com have to be so PC by stating "Vaccinations Forum is neither pro-vax or anti-vax in policy." ?? This just opens the way for trolls to come in...And then the conversation inevitably gets heated, making it nearly impossible to comply with the second part of the Forum Guidelines about debating civily.


I feel some are overreacting by the way they handle such posts. Have you read the announcement and the linked guide to dealing with trolls? Please let us handle trolls. I think a bigger issue is that some of our members do not hesitate to label people as trolls, refuse to follow our rules and guidelines in spite of having been contacted several times and asked to refrain, preferring to engage the "troll" in a manner of discussion that is somewhat attacking, condescending, and rude.

Our best advice is to not do so or to post as if the person is not a troll by giving advice and information about the topic at hand. That provides the OP with the information she came here for and avoids confrontations and accusations.

Well...the circ. board doesn't go both ways - not sure why this one should. Both circ. AND vaxing are proven harmful & both could be debated from the other side. *shrug* Just my thoughts...

Mothering questions vaccinations, points out the issues therein, and advocates informed consent for parents. That is what we try to uphold here in the Vaccinations forum. Mothering welcomes all parents in discussion of vaccinations, whether they be parents that have chosen to vaccinate and want advice on the best steps in vaccinating, parents who want to selectively vaccinate or delay vaccination, as well as those who are dealing with vaccine damage and the difficulties of not vaccinating and dealing with society.

I dont mind the debating, but when it gets nasty, and it DOES it bothers me.

The debating does get nasty at times. But it would help all the more if our core members in the forum would help us by following the rules and guidelines and permit us to address any troll issues. Too many threads have gone downhill due to someone being accused of trolling. That's just not right no matter how you look at it and gives the forum a poor reputation. No one is doing us or the forum a favor by adversarily engaging someone they believe to be a troll. Sure, it makes for a pat on the back, "You rock mama!" atmosphere for the regulars. But the effects to the forum as a whole are not positive.

Originally Posted by MomBirthmonStepmom
It just kinda sucks, cause around MDC I'm 'hearing' alot of, 'well if you don't do things THIS way, you suck as a parent', and that's coming from people on MDC directed toward other people on MDC, and it sucks. We're all just trying to do our best, let's not get even nastier...

MomBirthmonStepmom, if such has been posted please PM me with a link to that post. That is a very serious statement of attack and I would like to address it.

With that said, the problems that *I've* seen on this forum haven't come from those afore-mentioned parents. They come from antagonistic people who wish to tell us non-vaxxers that we are negligent, piggy-bagging-on-the-backs-of-our-vaccinated-neighbors, smelly pinko commie hippys...

Ultimately I'm pro informed consent. I do wish we had a policy in place for dealing with deliberately antagonistic people.


We do have policies in place. The problem is, for the most part, that members prefer to engage such people in discussion rather than report their behavior. Due to the manner of engagement they take threads often inflame, spiral and downspin into an attack.

I do feel the issues herein can be addressed by vigorous moderating and by members reporting any suspicions of trolling.

We do.
It's called inform the moderator.
A policy I'm not prepared to implement, since to me, that is playground behaviour. I hate narks, and I'm not about to become one myself.

That is a choice for everyone to make. We do not treat a failure to report as a violation. But when you (general you) choose to not report and also choose to violate our rules and ignore warnings in your dealings with others that you debate with, you may quickly lose your board privileges and membership.

So that puts people in a bind. Do they be a nark themselves, or reserve the right to fight it out in public?
You have no right to "fight it out" here. None whatsoever. Unless, of course, you regard civil, respectful disagreement as "fighting it out". And there we may differ because it is up to us as the admin and mod team to define what is civil and respectful and what is adversarial, "calling people out" and attacking.

The nicest troll was Gyr. I got to learn a lot of Greek history from him/her...

This is not appropriate. This is namecalling and labeling someone as a troll, truth or not.

I also think we need to respond to newbies with "read thru the archives and then come back with relevant questions."
It would be better for you to simply point the person to informative threads and invite them to ask more questions after reading that. But please do not push a new member to the archives. It can be overwhelming for some mamas with very precious little time on their hands to sift through it all and hoping to find a kind soul to give them some info. Yes, I know, they do really need to read and learn. But I think they will discover that pretty quickly and many will do so with a few kind points.

But if you really feel irritated with a new member's question which has been answered many times over, please just don't respond unless you can help in a more specific directive way with links and info. I know how you feel. The same happens in many of the forums here. But it is always beter to respond with helpful info if you can. :nod

The trolls instigate the bickering. That is where my frustration stems from.
That may be true in some cases. But you need not rise to the instigation and actually do more harm than good in doing so.

There is a subforum for selective/delayed vax
That is an archive for reference purposes, not for posting new threads.

I do not however think that the same pro-vax crap that we find on every other website should be welcome here, and 100% pro-vaxers are using the wording of the Forum Guidelines to push their agenda. This is Mothering.com, I just hate that I have to defend my decision NOT to vacinate here.

A problem here lies in what you define as "crap". It is sure to differ from what someone else regards it to be. We are not in the position to moderate "crap" beyond that which the rules and guidelines specify. So without a specific guideline as to what constitutes "crap" we certainly are not going to restrict what a person can and cannot post as their argument for or against a vaccine, for or against delaying or selectively vaccinating.

You personally are not required to defend your decision to anyone here. :)

I'm just really confused. Is this a debate forum or a support forum or both? If it is unofficially anti-vax, who decided this? just curious!

It is officially neither. It is a forum for discussion of all sides so that an informed decision can be made by parents. And yes, they will include some members posting about why they vax and what they believe to be positive about vaccinations. It's up to you to agree or disagree with civil discussion but when you post you must do so respectfully and without an "Oh boy, here we go again" attitude expressed in your posts. The same goes for members posting positively about vaccinations. We expect them to refrain from inflammatory statements as well. We would appreciate you reporting such statements so we can address anyone and everyone that posts them.

Please send any concerns or comments you may have about any of this to me by PM. I'll be happy to address anything that you feel I've overlooked.
:hippie