What would you do about these children's books?

[Yooper]

I saved a stack of favorite books from my childhood. They were a series by Scholastic Reader and Serendipity publishing books. Some of you might remember them..."Wheedle on the Needle", "Little Mouse on the Prairie", "Nitter Pitter"..... My dh says he remembers having the same ones so they must have been popular. Anyway, I dug them out today to give them to dd. of course she wanted me to read them to her right away. I have about 8 of them and read them all and realize now that they are AWFUL books. The worst one is called "Catundra" which is about an overweight cat that all of the forest animals tease. She eats because she is unhappy with herself until a mole befriends her and "whips her into shape" by making her exercise and eat veggies. Then she is happy and stops eating because she is "slim and beautiful". The last page of each of these books has the "moral" of the story. In this case it is (not the exact wording) "if you are fat and people tease you, do what Catundra did and get in shape". The book does not address the wrongness of teasing. Ummmmm..... They are all like this although some are better than others. They all have some "moral" and each has at least one aspect that I grossly disagree with....in most cases the actual "moral". I cannot believe I loved them so much or that my parents bought them for me?!?!?!?

Anyway, so now I have this stack of books that had sentimental value to me. I no longer want them. I might stash the least offensive one in my hope chest just to prove to someone 50 years from now that there was a reason people were so prejudiced and backwards..... But I want to dispose of the others. They are hard cover and have beautiful illustrations so I do not want to put them in the garbage. I also do not want to donate them as I don't think other kids need these messages either. The only idea I have is to paste blank paper over the text and stash them away in case dd ever wants to play "children's author" with the pictures. Any other ideas?

[raleigh_mom]

I don't usually throw away books, but there is a time and a place for just putting them in the trash can. I, too, had some books from when I was little. There's one that I've been reading to the kids, but changing some of the words. After reading your post, I think I should trash it. There are others that have already gone to the dump.

Occasionally I find a good one and am sure to keep it. Others simply go.

[lula]

Ok, so I thought I was the only one with a warped childhood based on the books I had when i was young! I also had a similar collection. This is my current coping mechanism. Some of my books were a little odd because of a weird religious bent. (not to offend anyone here seriously, I am a Christian but these were just um...strange)

I kept the ones I loved even if they were offensive, in a way I found it an educational process. I obviously have them boxed out of the reach of children!

The other ones I cut the pictures out of, made some felt board people etc and dd used the rest for a collage. I then framed the collage and gave it to my mom! (who bought me some of the books!) Note: she also read them and was rather suprised at the content. Babar and Curious George were some odd ones that I had issues with!

I like your children's author idea with pasting over the text! Maybe you could even paste over with the ruled paper?

[arwenevenstar]

Well if the illustrations are beautiful, why don't you make some nice framed piccies for her room with them and throw the words in the trash, alternatively you would be amazed what people want on e-bay and you can buy something better with the proceeds! Just a thought!

[kamilla626]

I was also going to suggest cutting out the best pictures and trashing the rest.

Dd can use them to make her own books, greeting cards, etc.

[L&IsMama]

[QUOTE=lula] Babar and Curious George were some odd ones that I had issues with!QUOTE]


:blush I'm just wondering what it was about curious George? Not trying to be snarky,really. We have some curious George,and really like them,so I'd hate to think there's something I'm just not getting,kwim? :o

[L&IsMama]

Well if the illustrations are beautiful, why don't you make some nice framed piccies for her room with them !

That's what I would do. Cut out her fav. pics and mat them and frame them. :)

[SumnerRain]

What a neat idea. I just purchased some replacement copies of "I love you Mouse" and a few other fav's. I would love some framed pictures, how pretty!

[Astoria]

Don't throw away the books. I'm a historian so I have a total bias here. Donate them to the Salvation Army or to a College with a teaching program. People use old books, especially geared to children, for research all the time. They are cultural artifacts -- by studying this kind of stuff we can figure out what the underlying biases were at the time. The Cat book would be fabulous for someone working on body issues and cultural attitudes that led to the subsequent fitness/food/model issues we had/have.

JMHO

Astoria

[Marsupialmom]

I would not throw them away. I would use them as jumping points for conversion. Yes, the fat cat needed to eat healthy but what about the teasers? I would make up stories on the teasers learning there lesson about teasing.

I did a quick research, each book in the series teaches one lesson. Read Nitter Pitter. It is about more to life than looks.
Also there is Leo the Lop about having two different ears and learning to like oneself.

These books sound like a good way to start conversations.

[LindyLou]

Framing the pictures is a great idea!! I too have a pile of old books that I have been wondering what to do with.

[emmasmominar]

I like the idea of framing pics and I also wonder whats wrong with curiouse george and babar?

[midstreammama]

I really like the idea of covering over the words and making your own book. That sounds like fun!

...Also wondering whats wrong with Curious George....

[srain]

...Also wondering whats wrong with Curious George....
Well, he was kidnapped from the jungle so he could be caged in a zoo-

[USAmma]

I have a few like that. I am saving them to use as educational material later on to teach about social values and the way people used to think. My grandmother gave me some books from her childhood that are precious to me. Unfortunately they are not very multicultural at all, and contain a few stories like Little Black Sambo, and some Mother Goose rhymes that are not PC. I'm going to keep them for both sentimental value and to teach my kids about stereotypes.

[midstreammama]

Well, he was kidnapped from the jungle so he could be caged in a zoo-

:duh I guess I was thinking more along the lines of something being wrong with the storylines. It just didn't click for me, I get it now! ;)

[Zach'smom]

There is also a lot of smoking going on in the curious George books! :lol At one point even Curious George is smoking a pipe! Also I think the Man With The Yellow Hat should be reported to Child Protective Services. He keeps just leaving George alone, unsupervised to get into trouble!!! Or the times Curious George was in the hospital he just left him there alone! Bad, bad Man With the Yellow Hat! :lol

I still love those books. I usually alter them a bit when reading them to DS though.

[Yooper]

I would not throw them away. I would use them as jumping points for conversion. Yes, the fat cat needed to eat healthy but what about the teasers? I would make up stories on the teasers learning there lesson about teasing.

I did a quick research, each book in the series teaches one lesson. Read Nitter Pitter. It is about more to life than looks.
Also there is Leo the Lop about having two different ears and learning to like oneself.

These books sound like a good way to start conversations.

Oh my gosh!!!!! You are right! I cannot believe I was actually going to censor! These books were technically given to dd by me. To take them now would not be appropriate anyway. She will soon be old enough to read books I wouldn't "approve" of. She might as well learn to be critical of reading materials as part of learning to read. I cannot believe I missed that point.

So now......how do we read these? Do we just read them like any other book and allow her to come to her own conclusions over time? Or do we discuss them after/while reading them?

[rootzdawta]

Personally I'd discuss them while reading them. Even though children are smart enough to draw their own conclusions, I'd want to at least get feedback/her thoughts on what she's reading not only to check for comprehension but to check to make sure she's thinking about what she's reading on many levels and making connections.

I'd recommend Should We Burn Babar? by Herbert Kohl for those interested in an alternative view of what Babar represented. If you don't want to spoil your love for Babar, however, stay away. ;)

[L&IsMama]

[QUOTE=Zach'smom]There is also a lot of smoking going on in the curious George books! :lol At one point even Curious George is smoking a pipe! Also I think the Man With The Yellow Hat should be reported to Child Protective Services. He keeps just leaving George alone, unsupervised to get into trouble!!! Or the times Curious George was in the hospital he just left him there alone! Bad, bad Man With the Yellow Hat! :lol QUOTE]

omg,spew! :rotflmao

[Marsupialmom]

I would take several stratagies....

1. Is while reading saying something like "That is so bad that XYZ character is teasing." Making comments like "That wasn't nice it made XYZ feel sad."

2. You can follow up question it "How did you feel when....."

3. What did you like about the book? What did you dislike? Then answer the questions yourselve. Like yah!! I like when that happend too. Yes, that was sad when XYZ happen. You know what I liked best? Least?

There is a time and place to ask the questions read your child's body language.

[Lizzo]

! Also I think the Man With The Yellow Hat should be reported to Child Protective Services. He keeps just leaving George alone, unsupervised to get into trouble!!! Or the times Curious George was in the hospital he just left him there alone! Bad, bad Man With the Yellow Hat! :lol

TELL me about it! I wonder "WTF is Man in the Yellow hat THINKING?" Mayeb he should take off the yellow hat and wake up and realize he's got a MONKEY to take care of! :down
Hahaha But seriously, DS loves CG!
But some old books really are very...racisit and sexist or just wrong... :Peace

[delicious]

dude we have those. they were dp's when he was a baby. i keep them put away as keepsakes. don't read them to the kids though.

[lula]

I like the idea of using books as a point of discussion etc. However, I have run into a few practical difficulties.

I don't like changing the words in books that she is going to someday (very soon) be reading for herself.

I don't want to border on telling her what to think about the book. (ok so I know that this can be avoided but as an ex-English major I am paranoid)

I don't want to censor her reading forever by any means however she is 4 and at some point I would like one part of our day to NOT include 100's of questions and explanations. (not of course that "normal" reading avoids this)

I am also really uncomfortable with certain books where every book in the series contains elements I am uncomfortable with...e.g. Bernstein Bears where in nearly every book Papa Bear is subtly shown as wrong, assumption laden in a highly incorrect manner etc. There is no way I can read these books and change this. After some discussion I now tell her why I don't read those books as frequently.

What about books where the intent is to make you feel happy and fine with something that feels odd. e.g.. In Babar's Daughter the little girl elephant goes off on an adventure where she willingly goes to the home of 2 very strange and nearly creepy male creatures. In the story this is part of the "fun" she is rescued by them in a way and they return her. To me this just feels off. But the entire set-up of the book makes this part of the "adventure" it is written in fun engaging language, on an emotional level the tone is very light but to me there are issues all over. So how do you discuss this?

How does one deal with books where the entire moral lesson is off? (IMO) For e.g.. Rainbow Fish, I just disagree with everything about the conclusion and I definitely don't want dd re-reading that book and having her subconscious pick up the elements repeatedly.

I am oddly temporarily conditioned to analyze every book (way too much paper-writing can mess with one's brain apparently) I worry about the line between reading as entertainment and analytical literature. Is there such a thing as too young? Dd also loves play-acting with her books and at some point I don't really want her play-acting while using words like submissive, savages, etc. without having a full context for the definitions.

So do you censor? What do you censor?

Ok, did I just go far enought to need a new thread? I am so sorry if I killed your thread just let me know if you want me to move it...or never speak again! ;)

ps we do have nearly every Curious George book but Babar is out! :lol

[USAmma]

I would take several stratagies....

1. Is while reading saying something like "That is so bad that XYZ character is teasing." Making comments like "That wasn't nice it made XYZ feel sad."

2. You can follow up question it "How did you feel when....."

3. What did you like about the book? What did you dislike? Then answer the questions yourselve. Like yah!! I like when that happend too. Yes, that was sad when XYZ happen. You know what I liked best? Least?

There is a time and place to ask the questions read your child's body language.

This is exactly what I do when I read books to my dd. Sometimes she gets books from the library that I've never read before, so when I read them to her I find myself disagreeing with the author, or I see a life lesson emerging.

My kids need to know they can read a book and disagree with it. It's the first step to critical thinking.

They learn from modeling, so if I read something that I disagree with, I will make an observation out loud, like, "That wasn't nice for her to say. That probably hurt that cat's feelings, huh?"

My dd loves Angelina Ballerina books. There are two mouse characters who are rude. Two twin mice named Pricilla and Penelope. They put down the other mice and tease them and act bossy. Sometimes Abi will see a girl in public who is talking like that and she will say, "Oh my, that girl is acting like Pricilla and Penelope. That's not nice to talk to her mommy that way."

Of course my dd sometimes talks to me that way, too, but it's a way for her to learn the lesson without me personally drawing attention to her own behavior. She can figure it out for herself.

[jgale]

We haven't really gotten there with my ds yet--or maybe we have and I'm just not being a discerning enough reader.

But I distinctly remember my mom telling me flat out that she didn't like certain books and didn't want to read them to me, and why. I had one called "I like rubber, I like glass" (boy likes rubber balls, etc girl likes delicate little glass things). My mom told me that the book was sexist and I could look at it myself, but she didn't like it enough to read it to me. I didn't really get why it was sexist, but it kind of turned me off the book (which was good, I guess).

Incidentally, she also did it with books that she just didn't like, like the Little House books (can you imagine!!!) and some Judy Blume books, when I was older. I think it made me learn to read at a much younger age because I really really wanted to read those little house books.

I try to remember that it's okay to say 'no' when my kid wants to hear "Maisy cleans up" for the 800th time. Oy.

Jessi

[Yooper]

I like the idea of using books as a point of discussion etc. However, I have run into a few practical difficulties.

I don't like changing the words in books that she is going to someday (very soon) be reading for herself.

I don't want to border on telling her what to think about the book. (ok so I know that this can be avoided but as an ex-English major I am paranoid)

I don't want to censor her reading forever by any means however she is 4 and at some point I would like one part of our day to NOT include 100's of questions and explanations. (not of course that "normal" reading avoids this)

I am also really uncomfortable with certain books where every book in the series contains elements I am uncomfortable with...e.g. Bernstein Bears where in nearly every book Papa Bear is subtly shown as wrong, assumption laden in a highly incorrect manner etc. There is no way I can read these books and change this. After some discussion I now tell her why I don't read those books as frequently.

What about books where the intent is to make you feel happy and fine with something that feels odd. e.g.. In Babar's Daughter the little girl elephant goes off on an adventure where she willingly goes to the home of 2 very strange and nearly creepy male creatures. In the story this is part of the "fun" she is rescued by them in a way and they return her. To me this just feels off. But the entire set-up of the book makes this part of the "adventure" it is written in fun engaging language, on an emotional level the tone is very light but to me there are issues all over. So how do you discuss this?

How does one deal with books where the entire moral lesson is off? (IMO) For e.g.. Rainbow Fish, I just disagree with everything about the conclusion and I definitely don't want dd re-reading that book and having her subconscious pick up the elements repeatedly.

I am oddly temporarily conditioned to analyze every book (way too much paper-writing can mess with one's brain apparently) I worry about the line between reading as entertainment and analytical literature. Is there such a thing as too young? Dd also loves play-acting with her books and at some point I don't really want her play-acting while using words like submissive, savages, etc. without having a full context for the definitions.

So do you censor? What do you censor?

Ok, did I just go far enought to need a new thread? I am so sorry if I killed your thread just let me know if you want me to move it...or never speak again! ;)

ps we do have nearly every Curious George book but Babar is out! :lol

Yeah, those are all good questions. Sheesh! It seems like I have to ponder every single little thing. I thought reading books was suppose to be simple:)

[L&IsMama]

[QUOTE=USAmma]My dd loves Angelina Ballerina books. There are two mouse characters who are rude. Two twin mice named Pricilla and Penelope. They put down the other mice and tease them and act bossyQUOTE]

My oldest ds likes Angelina. :lol I dunno that he's quite old enough to understand the 2 rude mice yet,though...

[flyingspaghettimama]

I am a librarian; and I think it's great to start with critical thinking skills regarding books as soon as a child is capable. It can be really simple, such as "how do you think x character felt when y character said that?" I don't usually point out the Evil Banality of the Man in the Yellow Hat, but let her notice that herself after some pointed questions. Or I state that it's my opinion that this fellow is full of it and borderline inane, what does she think?

However, I couldn't bring myself to read Little House...and some stories I guess she'll read herself. I agree with other posters - if I have to have a serious talk with her every other page, then it is just stressful for everyone. The first chapters of Little House was alarming to her, what with all the whuppin's and Indian "savages." But I will save it as another poster put it succinctly - a "cultural artifact." I have some horrific books from the 1950s that also serve this purpose...

Also troublesome but good are Kevin Henkes' books, where meanness and retribution are recurring themes. Right now we're reading Pinocchio by Collodi. I think I can say fairly surely that Pinocchio is quite the rapscallion and does all sorts of things that perhaps children wish they could do but are thankfully restrained by society or their parents from doing. Like, say...turning into a donkey and running away from home to join the puppetshow. She freakin' LOOOVES this book.

I guess it's like an adult book - we don't just read books that conform to our worldview and leave us in a happier place. Sometimes the waters like to be troubled, so we can think more deeply about what we know. It's whether or not the child has the emotional/psychological maturity to do this yet?

Should We Burn Babar is GREAT - and has specific observations on how to read questionable books with children (and whether to buy them a Barbie), along with how to recognize biases in books.

[katsam]

I love those serendipidty books that you are referring too. I even had a cat named Catundra as a child. Anyway, even if Catundra missed the mark a little bit, I think that a lot of those books have great messages. The Gnome from Nome learns to get warm from the inside out, someone already mentioned that Leo the Lop learns to accept himself for who he is, and the Little Mouse on the Prarie learn about balancing work and play and end up learning to like eachother at the end. Maybe I am just being sentimental. :)
Anyway, I like the idea of reading them if you feel comfortable and then talking about what message the books sends, and if you don't want to keep them you can send them to me. :lol

[USAmma]

My 5yo is loving the ancient mythology books I'm reading her right now. She's horrified but loves the stories and asks me to read them over and over again. They are very imaginative. A little bit violent, yes, but that doesn't mean she's going to turn violent. She's actually quite compassionate.

[flyingspaghettimama]

My 5yo is loving the ancient mythology books I'm reading her right now. She's horrified but loves the stories and asks me to read them over and over again. They are very imaginative. A little bit violent, yes, but that doesn't mean she's going to turn violent. She's actually quite compassionate.

Uh, not to hijack, but which ones are you reading? I am looking for a good mythology book that isn't too boring...

I think violence in stories is one of the safest ways to work through violence; it's not on TV with too much graphic imagery; and it's not by beating up other kids. It's a great way to explore the "what if." Of course, one would not read Stephen King to a five year old (I hope!). Greek myths are good. In Pinocchio, the donkey master bites off part of a donkey's ear. We have to read that part over and over and I'm supposed to act JUST as shocked every time. It's totally gross.

[trmpetplaya]

a bit OT (i HAVE enjoyed the thread!) - i never was able to read Babar while little b/c the ones our library had were in cursive. my parents didn't read them to me either though i had all the Little House books (read them on my own in 1st/2nd grade). One thing I did like about those is that Laura's Pa clearly doesn't agree with the prejudices against natives at the time. Caddie Woodlawn is a great book and deals with the prejudices, but Caddie's family members do not share the prejudices in so far as it's possible not to living in those times.

the first "adult" book (aka chapter book) my dad read to me was Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe (I'm Christian as are my parents so he used it to explain allegories and such) when I was 4 years old. He also read me the gospels and Proverbs from the Bible. We had a ton of Dr. Seuss :thumb

I totally agree that you should turn it into a life lesson. Children shouldn't believe everything they read anymore than they should believe everything they hear on TV.

I just may have to get that Should we Burn Babar book...

love and peace. :love

[Teensy]

Here's an example of what is wrong with the Curious George stories:

http://triggur.org/storytime/george/

:lol

[kewb]

Laughing at all the Curious George Comments. My dh always gets bent out of shape when the kids and I read it because I have taught my children that the man in the yellow hat is a poacher. :lol:

I, too, have unearthed my beloved books from childhood and am amazed at how unpc and caucasion a lot of them are. We read them and talk about bullies, feelings, etc.

[~member~]

I would not throw them away. I would use them as jumping points for conversion. Yes, the fat cat needed to eat healthy but what about the teasers? I would make up stories on the teasers learning there lesson about teasing.

I did a quick research, each book in the series teaches one lesson. Read Nitter Pitter. It is about more to life than looks.
Also there is Leo the Lop about having two different ears and learning to like oneself.

These books sound like a good way to start conversations.
:yeah: I have almost all the Seredipity books from my childhood, and I read them with my children. They are awesome books for teaching about many different subjects.
Morgan and Yew, we spent a good three weeks discussing and dissecting.

I did wait until they were 8 yrs old.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Here's an example of what is wrong with the Curious George stories:

http://triggur.org/storytime/george/

:lol

That website is so very, very,very wrong. I particularly like the story about the demonic red balloon.

[~member~]

The most violent book my kids have read is The Holy Bible.....
We've read some other really bizarre books at the library....I remember one that was about a man hippo who peeks in the window at a woman hippo taking a shower.
Or one about a girl who is deemed 'naughty' and falls into purgatory. It goes on and on about all her sufferings. She was unable to move and spiders, scorpions, snakes, etc. crawled and bit her. An animal poops on her and she has to smell it for two days. She can only let raindrops slide into her mouth so she can drink, but she cannot die no matter how thirsty or hungry she feels, etc. And it describes the others around her.
Man, that gave ME nightmares! :lol

[USAmma]

Uh, not to hijack, but which ones are you reading? I am looking for a good mythology book that isn't too boring...

The Gods and Goddesses of Olympus, by Aliki
good pictures, simple stories. My dd wouldn't let me put this book down until I had read all of it.

Favorite Greek Myths, by Mary Pope Osborn
short stories with one illustration per story. A bit over her head but it's good to get her used to listening to advanced language. She understands it enough to get some fun things out of the stories.

The Odyssey, by Mary Pope Osborne. I have Book One, The One-Eyed Giant. This is a series of chapter books, I think 6 in all. She wrote the Magic Treehouse books and this is about as thick as those but slightly more advanced language and concepts. I have not started reading it to her yet. I was planning to start it next week for her bedtime story.


Getting back on topic, we have a couple of Curious George books and I did point out how sad it was that the man took George out of the jungle. But we enjoyed the rest of the book. No sense trashing the whole thing, but it was nice to give her that point to ponder.

[Marsupialmom]

I have to admit I like Curious George but it could be because that is the only children’s book that I ever owned.......... No Joke. I think there was 3 in the house and they were MINE, MINE, MINE. :mischief

I never heard of Babar until I was an adult and these books well I only know what I saw through Amazon.com.

Is that pitiful or what?

[MountainLaurel]

:blush I'm just wondering what it was about curious George? Not trying to be snarky,really. We have some curious George,and really like them,so I'd hate to think there's something I'm just not getting,kwim? :o

The opinions about CG have to do with the issue of colonialism and the pattern of the Great White Bwana who keeps having to save the ignorant "monkey."

[MountainLaurel]

However, I couldn't bring myself to read Little House...and some stories I guess she'll read herself. I agree with other posters - if I have to have a serious talk with her every other page, then it is just stressful for everyone. The first chapters of Little House was alarming to her, what with all the whuppin's and Indian "savages." But I will save it as another poster put it succinctly - a "cultural artifact." I have some horrific books from the 1950s that also serve this purpose...

snip

Should We Burn Babar is GREAT - and has specific observations on how to read questionable books with children (and whether to buy them a Barbie), along with how to recognize biases in books.

Hello from another librarian!

One approach that was discussed in the children's lit class when I was in library school was the reading of the Little House books concurrently with Louise Erdich's books about the Ojibwe girl: "Birchbark House" and the new one. They deal with the lives of Native Americans in the same region as where the early LH books take place, so comparing them provides an interesting look at the perspectives of the two groups, of themselves and of one another.

[swebster]

We've read some other really bizarre books at the library....I remember one that was about a man hippo who peeks in the window at a woman hippo taking a shower.


George and Martha!!! these were my favorite as a kid! a little twisted, but pretty funny....

I agree with pp's that the books should be read and discussed. after all, you wouldn't want your child growing up thinking that they ought to agree with everything they read, right?

[PancakeGoddess]

Can't the whole thread, but when I have childhood items that give me good feelings but aren't needed, I take a picture and say goodbye. More space, no forgetting.

[aprons_and_acorns]

I remember one that was about a man hippo who peeks in the window at a woman hippo taking a shower.


:rotflmao

I got that as my free RIF book in first grade. It taught me a new vocabulary word: privacy. I used to say "There IS such a thing called privacy!" because that was what Martha told George when he peeped at her. Oh my! :shy

[minkajane]

Or one about a girl who is deemed 'naughty' and falls into purgatory. It goes on and on about all her sufferings. She was unable to move and spiders, scorpions, snakes, etc. crawled and bit her. An animal poops on her and she has to smell it for two days. She can only let raindrops slide into her mouth so she can drink, but she cannot die no matter how thirsty or hungry she feels, etc. And it describes the others around her.
Man, that gave ME nightmares! :lol

OMG!!!! What book WAS that?

[meowmix]

I love those serendipidty books that you are referring too. I even had a cat named Catundra as a child. Anyway, even if Catundra missed the mark a little bit, I think that a lot of those books have great messages. The Gnome from Nome learns to get warm from the inside out, someone already mentioned that Leo the Lop learns to accept himself for who he is, and the Little Mouse on the Prarie learn about balancing work and play and end up learning to like eachother at the end. Maybe I am just being sentimental. :)
Anyway, I like the idea of reading them if you feel comfortable and then talking about what message the books sends, and if you don't want to keep them you can send them to me. :lol

I think we had these, I think. I had one called Trafalgar True and one called Creole. I liked them both and had no problem reading them to the kids. They don't have quite the magic they did when I was little (I found the Kith and Kin very annoying when I read it to my children as an adult and thought Creole was too cute to actually be considered ugly by the swamp creatures. :lol ) but my kids liked them.

Personally, I don't have much problem reading books uncensored. I think we can put a whole lot of bias on a book because we are adults, we analyze and think about things from a whole different prespective. We have read all kinds of books with minimal reaction from my children: Francis who might get spanked for not going to sleep (Bedtime for Francis), Where the Wild Things are and Max getting sent to his room without supper, Outside Over There (which is my personal favourite book) and the goblins who take the baby sister away. Since my children have a baby sister, they were quite taken with the story and how the goblins are babies, too. We read the Steadfast Tin soldier where he gets thrown in the fire, Red Riding Hood and that rather gruesome version where the wolf gets cut open to save the grandma and riding hood and filled with stones. Ugh, I thought it was horrible, but my children never reacted!

I actually think that when I read these stories the less bias I put into it (ie: if I just read it more matter of factly rather than going on and on about how awful so and so must feel, or how gruesome that event is) they really take the stories in stride. They don't hate wolves, they know I am not going to spank them if they don't go to sleep, they don't have nightmares about goblins stealing their sister. Nor do I see this behaviour manifested in their play as anything more than prehaps a passing interest. There are some things I won't read them, some Grimms Fairy tales, I never volunteer to read Red Riding Hood (nor do they ask for it that often). I like alot of more "regular" children's books, too, which we also read alot ( my kids looooooove books). If they wanted to discuss something about a book, or wanted to say, catch a wild animal like the man in the yellow hat did, I would discuss with them why we don't do that. I guess I am a horrible parent for not dissecting every story for them but it really is fun to just read the book for the pleasure of reading a book. Am I the only person who just is a story book reader? My parents read me lots of books and didn't spend tons of time telling me meanings, etc, I always loved books and found plenty of time when I was older to think about the messages/biases the books portrayed based on my values and morals I was taught outside of story books. Anyway, I feel like I am rambling butI felt like I was in the minority so I had to. :)

[UmmBnB]

I would never ever ever throw a book in good condition away. Books are sacred to me and I just could never do that. The stories, as you describe, sound like great conversation starters.

[seedgirl]

The worst one is called "Catundra" which is about an overweight cat that all of the forest animals tease.


Gah! I just found that book in my eldest childs room. I'd bought it for her remembering how much I loved it.

you're right. it sends such a negative message. it's ok to pick on someone because th ey're bigger than you. yuck.

[WuWei]

Oh my gosh!!!!! You are right! I cannot believe I was actually going to censor! These books were technically given to dd by me. To take them now would not be appropriate anyway. She will soon be old enough to read books I wouldn't "approve" of. She might as well learn to be critical of reading materials as part of learning to read. I cannot believe I missed that point.

So now......how do we read these? Do we just read them like any other book and allow her to come to her own conclusions over time? Or do we discuss them after/while reading them?

I believe that there are multiple levels of issues. Assuming that you have already handed the books over, ie. introduced them...done deal. I wouldn't initiate books that I didn't feel our son was comfortable reading, but I wouldn't refuse him selecting anything from a shelf/library either. I would provide him with my best information regarding issues that I thought might be of concern to him. For instance, 'there are some scary parts'; 'some of the people are unhappy in the book'; 'some children are upset about the story', etc. so that he could choose whether he felt ready to explore the book further.

When reading the book, I have altered the vocabulary to convey the context of the story without some of the more harsh words/connotations. Instead of "destroy", I have used the word "damage" for instance. For social connotations which are beyond his understanding, I have skipped over the parts for which I had not anticipated preparing him. For instance, I have skipped over gun references because he hasn't any awareness that they exist.

I do the same with videos and DVDs: provide information in advance so that he can choose to watch the video and opt out if he doesn't like parts. The most recent example was Dumbo. What I observed however, was that *my* filter of the show was very different than his filter of the show. I was seeing animals being treated cruely, and animals treating each other harshly with teasing and hurtful words. Ds just seemed to gloss over some of the social context and was intrigued by the flying elephant, the dancing elephants, the clowns rushing into the burning building, etc. So, my lesson ;) was not to assume that my filter and ds's was processing the information in the same way. I attempted to explain the context to some degree, out of concern that he would be confused. But, I have hence decided to answer questions rather than offer my interpretation of what he is experiencing.

Interestingly, parts that I wouldn't consider as upseting were more so than parts that I found most disturbing. So, my plan is to be an available resource, as I follow his lead regarding his comfort to watch, continue with the story, and to seek explanation.

HTH, Pat

ETA: I too believe that books are sacred and I couldn't discard or destroy them. Well, I could burn the Pearls and Ezzo books. :shake But, I can't bring myself to introduce fairy tales to our son because of the horrible stories, either. :irked:

[Christine&men]

I got books (brandnew) that I have issues with. The worst: How do rabbits get long ears? Turns out that rabbits are born with short ears but because they misbehave so much, they get their ears pulled my mommy and daddy rabbit (according to the book). Needles to say, they are up-high in the closet...

Maybe we can make greeting cards out of them? :lol

[Nora'sMama]

This is a very interesting thread. I remember "Catundra" very clearly from childhood. I loved (and still love) cats and I remember feeling so sad for poor Catundra! I can see the illustrations in my head now. I had those other books ("Morgan and Yew", etc.) too, but the one I remember is "Catundra".

Definitely not a message I want to send my DD!

It's so easy right now since DD is a baby, the books are all about pictures and textures (chewing board books etc.). But I dread getting into the content with her. I bought a colorful board book full of glittery illustrations at the grocery store and was a little shocked that one of the characters (a bug) is a drill sergeant...which is just weird IMO in a book for toddlers. I don't want to have to explain to my 1-year-old about soldiers and war, especially not in the context of a silly glittery book with bug characters!

Anyway, I'll be lurking on this thread. I'm so glad I found it because there are a lot of good ideas.

Elizabeth

[EnviroBecca]

USAmma wrote:My kids need to know they can read a book and disagree with it. It's the first step to critical thinking. :thumb My parents had this attitude, and I think we learned a lot from it. When I began choosing books on my own, if I read one that I found unsettling I would suggest it for a bedtime story to read aloud in order to initiate discussion and find out what my parents thought about the ideas in the book.

I will mention though that I've rejected a book that was included in a box of free stuff because I didn't like the moral: If you are prettier than the others, mutilate yourself and give them the pieces (a fish gives away her pretty scales) and then you'll be popular!!! :eek When EnviroBaby is older, if he chooses a book like that from the library we'll read and discuss it, but for now I didn't want it around!

[lisalou]

Great thread. It's helping me articulate why I'm hesitant to get rid of some of the books on dd's bookshelf that I find kind of offensive. Like Curious George and Barbar and Runaway Bunny. All good points of discussion.

My favorite book growing up was Edith Hamilton's Mythology. It covers Greek, Roman and Norse myths. To throw out another mythology book.

[PennyRoo]

Yet another reason why I am glad to have found MDC - - there are others who share my view that the man in the yellow hat is a POACHER! DH picked up Curious George from a yard sale last summer and as I was reading it DD (remembering nothing much about the story lines from childhood) I suddenly felt indescribably sad - here is this baby monkey being stolen from the wild and transported to a zoo in a north american city - - and the book actually says he was *happier* in the zoo. Yeah, whatever. I filed it away under the "I'm too sensitive for this world" category, until I happened upon this thread and thought, hallelujah! I'm not the only one! Love you mamas!

Yes, why not cut out the pictures and make your own stories?

PS I agree about the Little House books - - - absolutely loved all of them and still have the whole series, but am *so* not keen on some of the "savage" hating that goes on, or - - anyone remember the time Pa dresses up in "black face" and does some horrible "Negro" parody? Ugh! Sorry, hijack over.

[L&IsMama]

and Runaway Bunny. All good points of discussion.

Runaway Bunny? I have to ask about this one...

[lisalou]

Runaway Bunny? I have to ask about this one...

Little bunny says he's running away, mother says she will track him down, little bunny tries out various scenarios to get away from mother, mother, like a stalker tells him he won't evade her, little bunny gets depressed and says, "well I guess I'll just stay here then." Runaway Bunny II involves little bunny running a hotel and Janet Leigh comes to stay and interesting things are discovered in little bunny's attic.

Sorry, I just find the moral of that book to be any attempt at freedom will be met with mother bunny stalking you. And the sad thing is it probably could easily be altered to be a less suffocating book.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Little bunny says he's running away, mother says she will track him down, little bunny tries out various scenarios to get away from mother, mother, like a stalker tells him he won't evade her, little bunny gets depressed and says, "well I guess I'll just stay here then." Runaway Bunny II involves little bunny running a hotel and Janet Leigh comes to stay and interesting things are discovered in little bunny's attic.

Sorry, I just find the moral of that book to be any attempt at freedom will be met with mother bunny stalking you. And the sad thing is it probably could easily be altered to be a less suffocating book.

Ha! I hated this book as a kid, and I didn't realize why until I was an adult. You have expressed exactly why!

Mother bunny sort of took attachment parenting too far, and wasn't listening to her child's obvious need to individuate...I always wonder if it's this sort of relationship people imagine when thinking about AP. Mama will always find her baby! And swaddle him, sling him, and nurse him to sleep! Even when he is 35 and tries to escape. You cannot escape Attached Mama! Bwa ha ha (evil laugh).

There is another book that's creepy along these lines as well, it has a mother rocking her adult son to sleep. I could find the name if I looked...

[EnviroBecca]

Is anyone bugged by Guess How Much I Love You? The moral seems to be, "No matter how hard you try, your love will never measure up to mine; I can always out-love you, so there!" Apologies if I have just ruined it for anyone. :hide:

[lisalou]

That one doesn't bug me. I think mainly b/c at the end of the book the father lets the little bunny outdo him and then after he falls asleep says I love you to the moon and back. I don't know just doesn't seem as bad.

[eminer]

I tend to not want to read (over and over) books that I don't like. If I don't like them because I object to their messages, I complain. Dd does the same. If she really wants to hear one that I hate reading, I'll relent sometimes.

I can really sympathize with the experience of being shocked by books from one's childhood! It's amazing how differently I perceive mine now. Dd perceives them differently, too. For example, I absolutely LOVED the Richard Scarry nursery rhyme book. Dd is not into nursery rhymes, and she doesn't get the anthropomorphic animal illustrations. Dd is definitely critical about books. She gets mad at Olivia's mom for being snippy with Olivia. Fortunately, she hasn't asked yet what "time out" means. :lol

[Peppermint]

I never would have guessed that people wouldn't like "Rainbow Fish", I don't see it as "make everyone else pretty and you'll be popular", I saw it as "share and be kind and you will have more friends that when you refuse to share". Not that I am right and others are wrong, just interesting the way we see things so differently.

And- nak, so I can't find the name, but the mama bunny saying she will always find her baby bunny, we really enjoy giggling through that book.

Then again, we LOVE "No David" too, which is an often-hated book here :lol

I also like "Guess How Much I Love You" my kids and I play that game a lot.

All of the aforementioned books are just fun in our house, we have TONS of childrens books and just really LOVE and have fun with reading. My oldest is 5, so we aren't into the deep stuff yet.

[robugmum]

Wow! I've really enjoyed this thread. I'm off to order the Burn Babar book as well as Birchbark house. I still love the Little House books (I read them obsessively when i was a kid and still have the boxed set). I love the idea of reading a parallel story of a First Nations child growing up at the same time as LIW. Thanks for all the food for thought!

[Dreaming]

Ha! I hated this book as a kid, and I didn't realize why until I was an adult. You have expressed exactly why!

Mother bunny sort of took attachment parenting too far, and wasn't listening to her child's obvious need to individuate...I always wonder if it's this sort of relationship people imagine when thinking about AP. Mama will always find her baby! And swaddle him, sling him, and nurse him to sleep! Even when he is 35 and tries to escape. You cannot escape Attached Mama! Bwa ha ha (evil laugh).



OMG that's funny. :lol My MIL never did AP but she's just as clingy as the mother bunny in that book. Freaking psycho.


Interesting thread. I have thrown out 3 books and reserved a few good sized board books to be recycled (I'll paint and draw on them when I get around to it).

One was "The Tale of Peter Rabbit". I wasn't very pleased with Peters uncle spanking Peter and Benjimen simply because they got cornered by a cat. How stupid is that??? Trash.

The other was Rainbow Fish. I saw it as everyone wanting what Rainbow fish had (his beautiful scales that he was BORN with). He wouldn't share so they didn't want to be his friend. He left and decided to give up everything he had to gain friends. All were then "equal". I'm not into the idea of Socialism. People shouldn't be expected to give up what they have just because others around them want it. That's silly.

The third was a pop up book called Dudley's Birthday or something like that. The birthday pig is demanding and obnoxious but the story isn't written in a way that makes a lesson of it. He demands presents and gets them. :rolleyes:

One of the soon to be painted books is an annoying Blue's Clues called "feelings". I didn't like that it labeled babies by their faces in the manner they did. One baby is said to be "cranky" when clearly the child is just upset and probably needs a hug.

Censoring this early on doesn't bother me in the slightest. When DD gets older and has critical thinking skills the censoring will stop.
I will always talk with our children about what the author is saying (or what a commercial is really saying or what Barbie is representing, etc). Left to their own devices, it can take years and even decades for people's brains to "click" and really "get it". I am seeing that here in this thread. Lot's of people like the OP saying they didn't even realize what the content of the book was as a child. I'm not thrilled with the idea of seeding my children's consciousness with a bunch of drivel- especially when that drivel can have a huge impact on their world view.

[Daffodil]

It's interesting how many people don't like The Runaway Bunny. It never would have occurred to me that anyone could have a problem with it. I would have described the story as "Little bunny playfully threatens to run away from home and mother bunny playfully reassures him that if he does, she will go to any lengths to find him again and bring him back, because she loves him so much."

I like Guess How Much I Love You, too.

The only book I've gotten rid of because of its content was Mortimer, by Robert Munsch. (A boy sings a loud song in bed despite everyone in his family yelling at him to be quiet. Then the family calls the police, who also can't get him to shut up, and the whole family and the police get into a big fight while the boy finally falls asleep.) The whole thing just seems so nasty, and the story isn't even interesting.

[Ravin]

There is also a lot of smoking going on in the curious George books! :lol At one point even Curious George is smoking a pipe! Also I think the Man With The Yellow Hat should be reported to Child Protective Services. He keeps just leaving George alone, unsupervised to get into trouble!!! Or the times Curious George was in the hospital he just left him there alone! Bad, bad Man With the Yellow Hat! :lol

I still love those books. I usually alter them a bit when reading them to DS though.


We have Curious George, and I read it to DD. But I can just see us in a couple of years:

"Mommy, where is George's mommy?"

"Well, uh, I think she was killed by poachers."

"Mommy, isn't smoking bad for you?"

"Well, they didn't know so much about that back in the 1930's..."

"Mommy, is that what jail is like?"

"Well, not in this country now, but eighty years ago, maybe..."

"Mommy, how come they call George a monkey? Isn't he a chimpanzee?"

"Well, baby, taxonomy wasn't so clearly defined or popularly understood in the 1930's..."

I have the same beef about calling apes monkeys in the book "Hand Hand Fingers Thumb" which was one of my very favorites when I was little.

I do think one purpose of books is to give a glimpse into the worldview of other people and places. You might save "Catundra" and its ilk for when your child is a bit older, and look at them and do some moral/critical analysis together with your child.

But sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar, and a fun adventure or clever rhymes with beautiful and/or engaging illustrations doesn't need too much analysis.

[heartmama]

I loved the Serendipity books. Ds has enjoyed them. If some of the morals are outdated, I think the overall spirit of the books is still very gentle and reassuring.