The Overlooked Healing Benefits of Crying

[M&Mmommy]

The subject has come up again about whether holding a baby and listening to her tears and crying while offering her warmth and attachement is tantamount to CIO. I would like to offer a perspective on why unexamined intolerance of any crying is actually short-circuiting an innate healing function that babies are born with.

All benefits of crying, however, are lost and damage is done when a baby or child is left alone to cry without comfort. CIO "works" when the baby enters a form of infant depression, gives up hope of being comforted, and settles into despair ~ which can carry into adulthood. Those children I've read about who were "trained" via CIO and now easily separate from their parents without any anguish are not well-adjusted, but rather have compensated for not being supported when they needed it in the past. The compensations may "work" in terms of allowing the parent and child to separate without tears, but the compensatory mechanism is created at great sacrifice and trauma to the baby and child who had to develop it.

What I have seen in response to the terrible and tragic use of CIO, is a kind of other extreme. We have been taught that crying means we are in pain, and therefore, we can end the pain by ending the crying. It is true that crying is a symptom of pain. But stopping tears does not stop the pain; on the contrary, crying heals the pain. Crying, sweating, shaking, and sceaming release stress and heal emotional and physical pain. Shushing, rocking, even nursing to stop the tears of a child who is hurting short-circuits the healing that the child was so intelligently and intuitively applying.

Many people nod along until they hear that nursing to stop a child from crying is also short-circuiting the healing. After all, nursing is part nourishment, part comfort. However, putting a breast in a baby's mouth when she is crying because (unbeknowst to anyone) the way her blankets are wrapped around her legs is bringing up the scary sensations she experienced during birth, causes her to stop offloading the feelings. On the other hand, if her mother would hold her in arms, soothingly reminding her that she is safe, that it's okay to let out all her fears and cry, she would work through and be able to see that this situation, though reminiscent of a scary situation, isn't dangerous. And moreover, that it is safe to have scary feelings and let them out. No need to push them down, run from them, or be threatened by uncomfortable feelings.

Lest a reader think I am talking in theory only, let me offer a personal example. My DD used to cry and push with her legs really hard. She appeared inconsolable, crying hard but without many tears, red faced and with a panicked look. It scared me terribly to see her so upset. Instead of rocking, shushing, or trying to stop her from expressing her terror, though, I held her gently and maintained eye contact, and talked softly to her: You are very scared. I promise you are safe. Let it out, let it out. She cried and lurched, pushing with her legs and arms against me. I stayed with her, without asking her to stop crying. This happened many times from about one year old until she was just over two. The last time it happened with this ferocity, she was crying and pushing against me (not to get away, but using me as resistance to her mighty pushing), crying loudly and red-faced. Then she stopped, looked right at me, and said, "I was stuck. It was red and wet and I was pulled and it HURT." She buried her face in my lap and cried with many round fat tears. She *was* stuck at birth. Her twin was born quickly, but with her I had to push with her 1/2 way down the birth canal for 2 hours. Then she was pulled out, and yes, I am certain it hurt. She told me this without prompting and without hearing her birth story details before. After this episode, she did get in my arms to cry and push a few more times, but never with the same intensity. She'd smile and say, "But I got out!" and leap off my lap. This is just one example of my children telling me what pain and fear they were working on offloading.

I believe that without being allowed to cry (not "left" or "made" to cry, but allowed to do what they needed to do, cry) they would have pushed many fears down into themselves, substituting eating or distraction for comfort. Then the fears, which don't go away when pushed down, would re-manifest themselves in other ways. I am so happy for them, and proud of them, for freeing themselves of the pain associated with some of their experiences.

If anyone gives thought to the healing benefits of crying, and considers that stopping crying even by loving, gentle ways can short-circuit healing, then I'm glad I wrote this. I mean everything I have said in peace and love for healing all human pain and suffering.

Yours,
M&Mmommy

[~member~]

It is sad that crying is no longer seen as a way for the body to heal, but only as a communicator in infants and children who cannot speak about their feelings.

When my children cry, and I have gone thru the 'list', then I will hold them and listen and just love them.

Crying not only heals the physical body, but the spiritual as well.

Crying is not always about grief.

My children's independance is more about how safe they feel, and not about how detached they are.

[M&Mmommy]

It is sad that crying is no longer seen as a way for the body to heal, but only as a communicator in infants and children who cannot speak about their feelings.

When my children cry, and I have gone thru the 'list', then I will hold them and listen and just love them.

Crying not only heals the physical body, but the spiritual as well.

Crying is not always about grief.

My children's independance is more about how safe they feel, and not about how detached they are.

I am so glad you wrote that about independence, too. Your whole post is just what I meant to say, and so succinctly. Thank you!

[~member~]

:thumb :love

[Dar]

I think there are certain kinds of tears that simply need to be cried, and when a child is crying because she's sad, it's disrespectful to try to shush her. When my mom died, we all cried, and it was good, and healing.

With that said, I think most of the time small children cry, it's because they have an unmet need and they're attempting to communicate that need in order for it to be met. If my baby or toddler cried, I nursed her, changed her, rocked her, sang to her, stroked her... in short, tried to meet her needs. I don't think the message was that crying was bad; it was that I had heard her message and was trying to help her. I don't believe babies and toddlers need to cry - I think they need to be cared for.

My daughter rarely cried as a baby or toddler, and never for very long, because I tried to help meet her needs. She spent 3 long hours and 16 long minutes in the birth canal, too, doing a 180 on the way out. It hasn't bothered her since she got here - no unresolved angst at all.

Dar

[alegna]

I think there are certain kinds of tears that simply need to be cried, and when a child is crying because she's sad, it's disrespectful to try to shush her. When my mom died, we all cried, and it was good, and healing.

With that said, I think most of the time small children cry, it's because they have an unmet need and they're attempting to communicate that need in order for it to be met. If my baby or toddler cried, I nursed her, changed her, rocked her, sang to her, stroked her... in short, tried to meet her needs. I don't think the message was that crying was bad; it was that I had heard her message and was trying to help her. I don't believe babies and toddlers need to cry - I think they need to be cared for.

:yeah:

AND- if a baby is crying and nursing STOPS the crying then the baby NEEDED to nurse, whether they were hungry or not. It is a comfort. It is cruel to withhold that comfort in the name of letting the child cry.

-Angela

[Bufomander]

:notes:

[USAmma]

I don't believe that crying is good for health for babies. Maybe I'm not understanding your post very well.

Crying is part of human nature for all of us, but that's a different kind of crying than babies do. A mother who is in tune with her child will soon learn the language of crying and often be able to tell the difference between a "diaper change" cry and a "hungry" cry.

If the child cannot be consoled by the traditional manner by meeting basic needs, the mother needs to consider the fact that the child might be suffering from pain. I was told over and over that my baby, who cried a lot and was not soothed, was just colicy. I later learned that she had severe reflux, an inflamed, bleeding esophagus, and was in extreme pain.

My daughter's Ped GI specialist said absolutely do not let her CIO (she didn't know yet that I was against this, she was just giving basic advice). She said crying causes a baby to swallow air, increase their stress hormones, increase acid production in the stomach, increase muscle spasms in the stomach (and therefore makes reflux worse), and can lead to attachment problems. She said if Nitara was crying and I couldn't get her to stop, then I needed to bring her in.

With older kids, I do believe that crying is much better than saying "You're okay, now go and play." My dd1 is very sensitive and cries a lot over the smallest things. A lot of times I think she just needs to cry and be assured that she is loved and safe, and that her feelings are valid. I let her cry and I hold her and then she gets over it. I wouldn't say that the crying is good for herl. I would rather she feel happy and settled and not have a need to cry at all. But when she's in that kind of mood, I'm glad I can be there to help her get through it.

[~member~]

I think there are certain kinds of tears that simply need to be cried, and when a child is crying because she's sad, it's disrespectful to try to shush her. When my mom died, we all cried, and it was good, and healing.

With that said, I think most of the time small children cry, it's because they have an unmet need and they're attempting to communicate that need in order for it to be met. If my baby or toddler cried, I nursed her, changed her, rocked her, sang to her, stroked her... in short, tried to meet her needs. I don't think the message was that crying was bad; it was that I had heard her message and was trying to help her. I don't believe babies and toddlers need to cry - I think they need to be cared for.

My daughter rarely cried as a baby or toddler, and never for very long, because I tried to help meet her needs. She spent 3 long hours and 16 long minutes in the birth canal, too, doing a 180 on the way out. It hasn't bothered her since she got here - no unresolved angst at all.

Dar
May you continue to be blessed. Not all mothers are able to say they have had the same birth experience as you.

[~member~]

A mother who is in tune with her child will soon learn the language of crying and often be able to tell the difference between a "diaper change" cry and a "hungry" cry.
And one that signifies healing. No one is saying to make a baby cry by not meeting it's needs. We are saying that if you are in-tune you will recognize that 'cry' for what it is, the need to heal.

My own infants rarely cried and never cried to eat or sleep or be changed. They made certain noises or faces and I knew what they needed immediately.

[Dar]

May you continue to be blessed. Not all mothers are able to say they have had the same birth experience as you.

Wait - I was actively pushing for 3 hours and 16 minutes, and my 9 pounds baby twisted completely around in the birth canal (from face up to face down). How was I blessed, exactly? I remember begging the midwife to shoot me at one point, to put me out of my misery...

Dar

[~member~]

Wait - I was actively pushing for 3 hours and 16 minutes, and my 9 pounds baby twisted completely around in the birth canal (from face up to face down). How was I blessed, exactly? I remember begging the midwife to shoot me at one point, to put me out of my misery...

Dar
I meant in reference to your baby not having any angst about her birth. Some have not even made it through the canal and had to be cut out. Some were born and taken from their mothers. There are all sorts of traumas that occur, and it sounded like you said you didn't have any.

[dynamohumm6]

No offense, but can you back this statement up with anything other than anecdotal evidence?

However, putting a breast in a baby's mouth when she is crying because (unbeknowst to anyone) the way her blankets are wrapped around her legs is bringing up the scary sensations she experienced during birth, causes her to stop offloading the feelings.

If my son is crying, and I nurse him and that's not what he wants, he just won't nurse.
I'm just curious where you're coming up with this theory.

[Hoopin' Mama]

I think it is really great that you knew why your baby was crying and what your specific child, who is old enough to speak to you, needed to do.

However, this forum is Life with a BABE. And since there are a lot of new mom's who come here for advice and guidance, I am not quite sure what you are hoping to accomplish with your OP.

As our babies grow sometimes we can determine why they are crying and if they are just blowing off some steam. But all in all, MDC should be a safe haven from people telling us we need to let our babies cry. Most of us hear enough of that nonsense IRL.

[Beeblebrox]

No offense, but can you back this statement up with anything other than anecdotal evidence?



If my son is crying, and I nurse him and that's not what he wants, he just won't nurse.
I'm just curious where you're coming up with this theory.


I thought the exact same thing. If DD is crying and wants to be nursed for nourishment or comfort, then she'll accept the breast. If not, she simply won't. No attempts at giving her my breast will work. So she is never subdued by my breast without wanting it first.

Also, as for shushing...when I shush DD it isn't to shut her up, it's because she likes the rythmic sound. It's white noise. It blocks out any other sounds and puts her in a state of calm. She knows I'm not telling her to be quiet. I'm, in fact, giving her the opportunity to tune it all out and just hear me while I gently rock and stroke her hair.

I can understand that sometimes people just need to cry to vent their frustration, but I do believe there is a point when I baby needs help calming back down. Rocking, white noise, gentle words, nursing.

[newbymom05]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamohumm6
No offense, but can you back this statement up with anything other than anecdotal evidence?

If my son is crying, and I nurse him and that's not what he wants, he just won't nurse.
I'm just curious where you're coming up with this theory.


I thought the exact same thing. If DD is crying and wants to be nursed for nourishment or comfort, then she'll accept the breast. If not, she simply won't. No attempts at giving her my breast will work. So she is never subdued by my breast without wanting it first.

Also, as for shushing...when I shush DD it isn't to shut her up, it's because she likes the rythmic sound. It's white noise. It blocks out any other sounds and puts her in a state of calm. She knows I'm not telling her to be quiet. I'm, in fact, giving her the opportunity to tune it all out and just hear me while I gently rock and stroke her hair.

I can understand that sometimes people just need to cry to vent their frustration, but I do believe there is a point when I baby needs help calming back down. Rocking, white noise, gentle words, nursing.

I have to quote both of you because I agree. If DS is crying but not hungry and I offer him the breast, not only will he not take it, but he will bite me if I insist!

With all due respect to the OP, your last post on CIA seemed bizarre and this does too. If DS's legs are tangled in the blankets and I offer him the breast, he isn't going to stop crying until I remove the blankets. So crying is serving a purpose--to remove the blankets. This theory of CIA to release *whatever* seems long on assumptions better applied to adults, IMO.

[famousmockngbrd]

I would agree that 9 times out of 10, a baby cries because of an unmet need that can be identified and met, like Dar said. But there is that mysterious tenth time where you have tried everything and the baby keeps on crying, until you are wondering if you should go to the emergency room - then the baby calms down and seems fine. :shrug I've had this experience with both kids. Personally I think it's to let off accumulated stress, sensory overload, etc.

With babies and young toddlers, preverbal children basically, I think it's best to try to address any physical need that may be causing the crying, before taking the CIA approach. But it's true that sometimes they just cry for no cause that is apparent to us, and then you really have no choice but to just hold them and try to reassure them.

Personally I think nursing and rocking are valid forms of emotional support. It's not like going out and buying a second grader a hot fudge sundae to cheer her up about not making the soccer team.

[curlyfry]

If my babe is crying and nursing helps, I will nurse her. I hope the new mamas here will do the same.

[rootzdawta]

My daughter rarely cried as a baby or toddler, and never for very long, because I tried to help meet her needs.

When I brought ds home from the hospital, I couldn't believe how much he cried. Unlike any other newborn I ever knew, he slept little and cried A LOT. I was doing everything I could to soothe him. I would put him in the wrap, in the swing, in the bouncer, carry him, sing to him, play music, hold him, desperately try to nurse (which he would angrily reject), put him in the stroller, drive in the car, back to the wrap, try feeding again. I mean, I was so incredibly frustrated and I felt like such a complete failure. My last resort was to come and post on MDC where I received at least some reassurance that babies do indeed have a need to cry (maybe not all babies) but that holding them and letting them know you are there for them is extremely important. And that's what I did and that's what I kept doing and now at 5 mos., I'm at the point where ds only gets cranky/cries when he is ready to sleep. I simply can't believe I'm at this point because it was initially so bad. In my heart, I know ds needed to let it out. I wish I knew what was causing his stress but my trying to stop him from crying frustrated me and frustrated him. He would wail and wail sometimes and then . . . silence--he'd either fall asleep or just look at me dreamily. It was so weird.

Anyway, my point in all this is . . . at least for myself I tried to help meet all my babies needs and he still cried. I would say it's a blessing to have a baby who rarely cries (and I know babies like this) but for those babies who do, it's very re-assuring to know that babies are human and that they need to let off steam sometimes and I believe this is what the OP was getting at. I really hope this discussion doesn't degenerate into another "I'm more AP than you" debate.

Oh, MitB . . . I really liked what you said, "My children's independance is more about how safe they feel, and not about how detached they are." Words to live by.

[Beeblebrox]

I don't think this is turning into a I'm more AP than you debate.

I just take issue with saying that offering a breast to your crying baby is stifiling them. If it is what the baby wants, it's what they want and as evidenced by your DC (pp) if they don't want it, they won't take it.

[curlyfry]

:yeah: Chicopea

[Hoopin' Mama]

I absolutely do believe that newborns will just cry. We had our crying time pretty steadily every evening between 7-9 (and at various other times as well). But I absolutely do not believe that my attempts to soothe ds was in any way "short-circuiting the healing".

[M&Mmommy]

Dear Mothers,

First I'd like to take a giant step backward and clear up some misunderstandings.

First, You all have my sincere appreciation and acknowledgement for being loving parents who are not just shoving your nipples into your childrens' mouths to stop them from crying. Far from it! I apologize sincerely for giving the impression that you were forcing yourselves on your children. That is not my intention at all.

Second, MODS: please move this thread to Parenting Issues. I really thought I was posting in Parenting Issues, not Life with a Babe, I don't know how I ended up putting it in the wrong place. Although I happen to believe that babies have real and big emotions that need outlet via crying, I understand that the advice I am advocating about listening could be misunderstood by some as CIO for babies. Again, 100% not my intent, but to be safe, please move this thread.

Third, please understand that I am talking about using *any* method to stop a child or baby from crying - not just nursing for comfort - I'm talking about all the things we have been taught to do to stop the upset. Shushing, bouncing, tickling, distracting, using a pacifier and sometimes even nursing. I think stopping a release of tears via any of the methods above, for the sake of stopping the tears, in a misguided attempt to stop the pain, is short-circuiting the release and healing of the pain.

Finally, let me point everyone to some authors who are better at expressing what I am trying to say. I did a search on Mothering.com and found the following articles in support of listening to babies and children when they are upset and crying rather than distracting them or trying to stop their tears.


http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/toddlers/tantrums.html

http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/bonding/connection.html

http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/bonding/connection-side1.html

http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/bonding/connection-side2.html

In warm and supportive spirit,
M&Mmommy

[Dar]

Anyway, my point in all this is . . . at least for myself I tried to help meet all my babies needs and he still cried.
I just want to clarify that I know that this is true... my younger sister was born when I was twelve, and she cried a lot... and she was breastfed on demand and had 4 pairs of arms always available to hold her, and still she cried. I personally think she cried because her nervous system was immature and she had colic, and I'm not sure crying actually helped her... but I do know that we all tried to meet her needs and she still cried. I was actually amazed to have a baby who only cried if she wanted something... of course, she wanted things like constant holding in particular positions, but still, I could do something about it... with my sister we all felt very powerless.

She was at her worst from about 4 weeks to 3-4 months, and mostly during the early evening hours... and by 6 months she had pretty much outgrown it... FWIW.

Dar

[kidspiration]

My 3 month old DD has a very clear "diaper" cry, "potty" cry (we EC part time), "nursies" cry and a "I want you Mommy" cry. I respond promptly and appropriately to each of these cues.

She also has a cry that is very different...she doesn't do this as much now as compared to when she was newborn, but when she does, I sense that she is working through something on an emotional/spiritual level. We had a very traumatic, violent birth experience and I can't help but feel that she is remembering it. When this happens, I just hold her and offer her my loving presence and acceptance that she needs to go through this and express her fear, frustration or whatever emotion is coming up for her at that moment.

I just started working with a wonderful craniosacral therapist who specializes in birth trauma resolution...I went there initially for my own issues but am learning so much about how much babies need to process the birth experience as well, especially when conditions were less than optimal as in our case.

I can relate very much with the OP, thank you so much for bringing up this topic. Honestly, this is not a discussion regarding CIO at all...believe me...I am super anti CIO.

[boongirl]

I don't believe that crying is good for health for babies.


USAmma wrote a very wise post.

Shushing, bouncing, tickling, distracting, using a pacifier and sometimes even nursing. I think stopping a release of tears via any of the methods above, for the sake of stopping the tears, in a misguided attempt to stop the pain, is short-circuiting the release and healing of the pain.


I don't think any parent who is practicing attachment parenting (and most of us here are) is going to ignore their child's needs to the point of dissuading the act of crying. That seems to be what you are writing about. There are parents who tell their children "don't cry, big girls don't cry, this is nothing to cry about." That kind of thing does definitely short-circuit the healing of pain. But, doing nothing but letting them cry is not helping them either. As attached parents, we are emotionally responsive to our children.

from API (http://www.attachmentparenting.org/idealresponse.shtml)
Attachment Parenting Ideals
Emotional Responsiveness - Understanding and responding sensitively to your infant's emotional needs is the cornerstone of Attachment Parenting. Remember that crying is your infant's way of telling you s/he is distressed. Building a strong attachment or connection with your baby is more than just caring for the baby's physical needs, but also involves spending enjoyable time interacting with your baby or child on a daily basis.
Don't be afraid to fall in love with your baby.
The common cues or reasons for crying include hunger, tiredness, discomfort, and loneliness.
Other reasons for crying:
1. Stress from too much stimulation
2. Picking up on mother's stress
3. Needs to be held or laid down
4. Needs skin to skin contact to feel secure
5. Gas and/or colic
6. "High-need" is a term that is often used to describe the temperament of a baby who is often fussy. These infants may need a lot of close physical contact, movement or loving attention. They may also be sensitive to certain solid foods or foods ingested by the mother.

[RubyWild]

I just started working with a wonderful craniosacral therapist who specializes in birth trauma resolution...I went there initially for my own issues but am learning so much about how much babies need to process the birth experience as well, especially when conditions were less than optimal as in our case.

I can relate very much with the OP, thank you so much for bringing up this topic. Honestly, this is not a discussion regarding CIO at all...believe me...I am super anti CIO.I don't know about yours, but my Dd saw a craniosacral therapist a few times as an infant, at the recommendation of my chiropractor, and I had to stop seeing him. As a baby, my Dd rarely cried, but she didn't like the craniosacral treatment and would start to cry, so I would begin to comfort her. The craniosacral therapist told me a bunch of crap about how I should just allow her to cry, that she needs to cry everyday for her neurological development :blah. Man, I was out of there. Anyone tells me not to comfort my child when she cries, well, plain and simply, I know that's wrong. I know that's damaging. Again, my Dd rarely cried. If crying was necessary for her
Yes, crying is a release and should not be discouraged, but comforting and taking care of a baby's needs is never a bad thing.

[Beeblebrox]

I just wanted to clarify that I do understand and appreciate the concept of crying in arms. It got me through many sleepless and emotionally draining nights when DD could not be calmed through any means. It's just that the OP originally came through seeming to say that we shouldn't comfort as that is an attempt to deny them their need to cry. I know that is not what was meant, but that is how it came across to some people.

I don't want the OP to feel like they're being attacked for putting this out there, I just wanted them to understand where some of the other moms are coming from who aren't agreeing with them. :Peace

[kidspiration]

I don't know about yours, but my Dd saw a craniosacral therapist a few times as an infant, at the recommendation of my chiropractor, and I had to stop seeing him. As a baby, my Dd rarely cried, but she didn't like the craniosacral treatment and would start to cry, so I would begin to comfort her. The craniosacral therapist told me a bunch of crap about how I should just allow her to cry, that she needs to cry everyday for her neurological development . Man, I was out of there. Anyone tells me not to comfort my child when she cries, well, plain and simply, I know that's wrong. I know that's damaging. Again, my Dd rarely cried. If crying was necessary for her

I'm sorry that your craniosacral therapist told you not to comfort your child. That does not seem right at all.

I do know from having taken some basic craniosacral courses myself that crying (and nursing) are seen as very effective ways for a baby to adjust their own cranial bones as needed. But I think this thread is oriented towards the emotional aspect of crying and so we will leave that thought for now.

My therapist comes at this from a standpoint that my DD, when she cries (and again, not the "I need something" cry...OF COURSE you attend to that!) that she is releasing and expressing an EMOTION, and to lovingly support her through that by accepting and validating.

It's like this...if you're upset and crying, which would you prefer...someone to tell you "oh, don't cry" and do things to make you stop crying...OR to say that they're there for you, to offer you physical comfort while also validating your feelings and allowing you the space to express and work through your emotions?

Again, as I said in my previous post, this is NOT really a discussion about CIO. And before I had my sweet baby (who is not a cry-er in general at all, by the way), I would have thought to do anything to not let my baby cry, personally being a huge non-CIO advocate. However, after experiencing the birth that we did, and being incredibly bonded to my daughter, I can now understand that there are some moments when she is crying that she is needing to do so to satisfy a need on an emotional level. At these moments, I hold her close to me, rock her and instead of approaching this with the intent of "how do I help her stop crying?", I accept that she is crying and releasing and tell her how much she is loved and that she is ok. And surprisingly enough, when I switched my own intent...she cried less! INTENT is the key word here, my friends. And it is not a passive thing on my part at all...I wouldn't even call it CIO in arms, because there is most definitely an exchange going on between us. On the outside, it may look to you like I'm "letting" her cry. But you wouldn't be able to tell how closely I'm holding her to me, and you wouldn't be able to hear the the words of love and acceptance that I'm whispering in her ear.

Many people, especially women, in this society learn to stifle their feelings and to not fully express themselves...I have only recently learned to accept all of my feelings, especially the negative ones. I don't want my little daughter to have to go through that. I'm hoping that by starting NOW by letting her express herself in this way, that she will grow up well adjusted and accepting all of her feelings and knowing deep down beyond a shadow of a doubt that I will always love and accept her, and that she is free to feel and express all of her emotions, positive or negative.

We also live in a society where babies are seen as eating-pooping-crying-sleeping machines, and I don't think many people are attuned to the fact that our little ones, from even before birth, have emotional experiences, ability to recall these experiences, and the need to express and work through them.

[jennygoat]

My 10 week daughter is trying to make talk noises. I talk to her & she makes realy cute ahhh's and squeaks. You can tell she is concentrating and thinking hard. Then after a few minutes of talking she starts crying, I just hold her and tell how good and smart she is after a few minutes she calms down and I try to interest her in physical play or she naps. I am sure
she wants to talk and be understood and is just so frustrated. I know she also gets frustrated when she wants to go somewhere and can't. Of course they just need love and hugs sometimes - its hard work being a baby!
If I tryed to stop the crying or put her down to CIO wouldn't that discourage the behavor that caused it? I want to encourage her to talk and crawl.

[~member~]

But, doing nothing but letting them cry is not helping them either. As attached parents, we are emotionally responsive to our children.
Show where anyone said they did 'nothing'. We are doing something, we are actively listening and allowing our babies to heal. That is part of being "emotionally responsive" parents.

I feel bad when people cannot or do not know how to allow the human body to heal. The human body is not a vehicle, even though modern medicine treats it that way. "Your knee is bad, we'll just replace it."

It is the same as the immune system. So many people think it doesn't exist or does not work, so they get vaccinated.

The human body not only has a defense system for protection, but also a healing system.

[~member~]

My 10 week daughter is trying to make talk noises. I talk to her & she makes realy cute ahhh's and squeaks. You can tell she is concentrating and thinking hard. Then after a few minutes of talking she starts crying, I just hold her and tell how good and smart she is after a few minutes she calms down and I try to interest her in physical play or she naps. I am sure
she wants to talk and be understood and is just so frustrated. I know she also gets frustrated when she wants to go somewhere and can't. Of course they just need love and hugs sometimes - its hard work being a baby!
If I tryed to stop the crying or put her down to CIO wouldn't that discourage the behavor that caused it? I want to encourage her to talk and crawl.
Thank you for that excellent description of the interaction between you and your infant. You are right in that it would discourage her wanting to speak to you.
I have seen too many times a parent who says they know all their baby's cry's, and I am sad that they would wait until their child is crying or being loud in order to be heard.
All I needed was a look, and I knew exactly what they needed.

Even now, my 9 yo dd will come in and hold my hand and cry if she's had a hard day. She doesn't throw fits or fall apart. After she is done crying, it's like it completely cleans her mind of everything 'bad' and she is able to clearly see what occured that day and why it affected her and how to address the situation.

My 9 yo ds will lay in my lap and cry, but he hasn't quite learned how to analyze a situation the way his sister can, so, we do take a little longer pin-pointing what exactly has him upset.

That only occurs maybe twice a month, if that.

[M&Mmommy]

It's like this...if you're upset and crying, which would you prefer...someone to tell you "oh, don't cry" and do things to make you stop crying...OR to say that they're there for you, to offer you physical comfort while also validating your feelings and allowing you the space to express and work through your emotions?

Yes, exactly! The key is to agree that babies and children have big emotional lives and need to have their feelings validated in warm and accepting connection, not just quickly resolved via soothing techniques.

... after experiencing the birth that we did, and being incredibly bonded to my daughter, I can now understand that there are some moments when she is crying that she is needing to do so to satisfy a need on an emotional level. At these moments, I hold her close to me, rock her and instead of approaching this with the intent of "how do I help her stop crying?", I accept that she is crying and releasing and tell her how much she is loved and that she is ok. And surprisingly enough, when I switched my own intent...she cried less! INTENT is the key word here, my friends. And it is not a passive thing on my part at all...I wouldn't even call it CIO in arms, because there is most definitely an exchange going on between us. On the outside, it may look to you like I'm "letting" her cry. But you wouldn't be able to tell how closely I'm holding her to me, and you wouldn't be able to hear the the words of love and acceptance that I'm whispering in her ear.

Yes, this is how my experience has been as well. Congratulations on going against the tide of well-wishers who would wonder why on earth you aren't fixing your DD's problem. Not everyone would see you holding your baby while she cries, no matter how closely and lovingly, and not tell themselves you are doing something wrong or your child would stop crying.

Many people, especially women, in this society learn to stifle their feelings and to not fully express themselves...I have only recently learned to accept all of my feelings, especially the negative ones. I don't want my little daughter to have to go through that. I'm hoping that by starting NOW by letting her express herself in this way, that she will grow up well adjusted and accepting all of her feelings and knowing deep down beyond a shadow of a doubt that I will always love and accept her, and that she is free to feel and express all of her emotions, positive or negative.

OMG, I think I love you. These are my intentions for my daughters too, and I came to the same conclusion as you have about society demanding that women and girls be pleasant and happy OR ELSE. All feelings are accepted here. Man,woman, boy and girl.

We also live in a society where babies are seen as eating-pooping-crying-sleeping machines, and I don't think many people are attuned to the fact that our little ones, from even before birth, have emotional experiences, ability to recall these experiences, and the need to express and work through them.

Again, thank you. You write far more succinctly than I. If anyone does not believe what you've written to be true, they will have a very hard time hearing that their child will benefit from having a good cry in loving arms when big feelings come up.

Even now, my 9 yo dd will come in and hold my hand and cry if she's had a hard day. She doesn't throw fits or fall apart. After she is done crying, it's like it completely cleans her mind of everything 'bad' and she is able to clearly see what occured that day and why it affected her and how to address the situation.

My 9 yo ds will lay in my lap and cry, but he hasn't quite learned how to analyze a situation the way his sister can, so, we do take a little longer pin-pointing what exactly has him upset.

My hat's off to you. You are heading into the 'tweens and teens with a boy and girl who feel safe to offload with you. That's awesome!

As a mother of two preschoolers, I'd like to add that I continue to listen in warm connection when my girls' emotions flare. Just this morning, one was so angry that her sister was telling her what to do. "I don't want HER!" she cried through tears. I held her and validated her feelings, "It's frustrating having someone tell you what to do. You want her to leave you alone." Yes! she cried and a few more tears came down. Then she went back to breakfast and told her sister, "Even when I don't want you, I do want you." I believe this is a set of twins who are diffusing the feelings that could have turned into sibling rivalry, and it is because all feelings are welcome here. Nothing is taboo, no feelings need to be denied, hidden, or feared.

Peace and warm kindness,
M&Mmommy

[flyingspaghettimama]

Eh. I imagine one's appreciation of this theory has much to do with anecdotal experience and not so much on provable fact. Fer instance - I had a totally awesome birth and pregnancy, great labor at home in the watertub, yada yada. Yet, my son had colic from 2.5-5 weeks. He screamed and screamed for 5-8 hours a night, no sleeping. A person might go insane. It was exhausting to listen to. He hated nursing (loves it now). I would try everything...including listening empathetically...yet - still with the screaming and the yelling.

The Happiest Baby on the Block helped us so much to calm him down. Swaddling, shushing, and movement helped him to center. You could see peace in his eyes after doing this, whereas there was only franticness before. I think a lot of baby fussing is due - in our case - to overstimulation and neurological immaturity, not trauma or deeply held feelings.

So there's our anecdote! I am sure someone can rebut mine with their own. :p

[boongirl]

Show where anyone said they did 'nothing'. We are doing something, we are actively listening and allowing our babies to heal. That is part of being "emotionally responsive" parents.


Shushing, bouncing, tickling, distracting, using a pacifier and sometimes even nursing. I think stopping a release of tears via any of the methods above, for the sake of stopping the tears, in a misguided attempt to stop the pain, is short-circuiting the release and healing of the pain.

Mamaintheboonies - I guess I did not understand that difference between holding your child and doing nothing else but listening and actually doing nothing. We are having a difference of opinion on this one in this thread, but I don't see "active listening" as something a baby can understand or benefit from. And, the quote from attachment parenting international is something I take very seriously. I don't see active listening as taking care of any of the needs that my baby has when crying. Even in an older child, one who can verbalize their discomfort, I would never do just listening. I would never do anything to stifle the crying but I also would not just sit there and listen to the crying. I would comfort and love and after the tears are done, I would talk and listen and ask my child what could be done to help the situation. If the act of crying itself is enough to end the problem, so be it, but I would also try to help in other ways, if needed.

You know, this discussion is really coming down to different ways to parent responsively and different ways to have a healthy, attached relationship with our children. For me, just listening does not feel right. If it feels right for you and it helps your children, so be it.

[~member~]

Mamaintheboonies - I don't see "active listening" as something a baby can understand or benefit from.
Does this help explain?
Originally Posted by kidspiration
It's like this...if you're upset and crying, which would you prefer...someone to tell you "oh, don't cry" and do things to make you stop crying...OR to say that they're there for you, to offer you physical comfort while also validating your feelings and allowing you the space to express and work through your emotions?



Yes, exactly! The key is to agree that babies and children have big emotional lives and need to have their feelings validated in warm and accepting connection, not just quickly resolved via soothing techniques.

[M&Mmommy]

I would comfort and love and after the tears are done, I would talk and listen and ask my child what could be done to help the situation.

Me, too. I guess I have made myself as (mis)understood as possible at this point. :shrug

Off to find something else to do,
M&Mmommy

[Dar]

You know, a tiny baby doesn't know whether you're saying, "Yes, I'm here for you, please go ahead and cry" or "The moon is made of blue cheese and we shall go there someday." Active listening is pretty pointless if the person being listened to doesn't speak your language...

I don't see active listening as taking care of any of the needs that my baby has when crying. Even in an older child, one who can verbalize their discomfort, I would never do just listening. I would never do anything to stifle the crying but I also would not just sit there and listen to the crying. I would comfort and love and after the tears are done, I would talk and listen and ask my child what could be done to help the situation. If the act of crying itself is enough to end the problem, so be it, but I would also try to help in other ways, if needed.
I agree. Trying to comfort a child does not mean trying to stop him from crying, it means trying to resolve the reason for his crying. It's an important distinction. If the crying itself resolves the problem, fine, but I guess I don't see most small babies as having quite as much unresolved existential angst as some posters seem to - I think mostly they cry because they're hungry, or sleepy, or in pain, or uncomfortable.

Teens, now... that's another story. Although I still try to comfort my teen, and problem-solve with her is possible, I know that often her tears are just an expression of emotions that needs to come out. She had a thousand other ways to communicate, though, unlike a baby. If she's hungry or in pain or uncomfortable, she has many ways to change that. A baby has very few, and the biggest one is crying.

Dar

[~member~]

You know, a tiny baby doesn't know whether you're saying, "Yes, I'm here for you, please go ahead and cry" or "The moon is made of blue cheese and we shall go there someday." Active listening is pretty pointless if the person being listened to doesn't speak your language... I know a human infant can communicate with it's human mother. Maybe not in spoken English, but certainly without needing to cry before getting it's needs met.
Also, it has been proven in many studies that infants learn language from being spoken to in that language. I think you will damage your child's trust if you constantly repeat false statements while meeting its needs.

- I think mostly they cry because they're hungry, or sleepy, or in pain, or uncomfortable....
A baby has very few, and the biggest one is crying.

Dar
To me, that sounds like it borders on cruelty. To wait until your baby is crying before meeting it's needs.
I understand having a baby in pain, and it just takes time for the body to heal, and in the meantime I did what I could, warm bath, cool washcloth, anything to help ease the physical pain.

Just think if you have never seen the world before! It's all completely new! Just think how overwhelmed you would be just as an adult who was forced to interact with everyone at your local shopping mall or grocer, kwim?
I use that analogy just to give you an idea of how much 'vague' information you are bombarded with.

Now, of course, if you had to do that everyday, eventually you wouldn't be so overwhelmed and would begin to be comfortable and soo, you would feel as if you had mastered the entire thing, right?

[Shanana]

DD and I had a very traumatic 3 day birth, and then they did deep-suctioning to her due to meconium staining. Nursing was horrible, horrible, horrible. She would pull off and scream and scream. We were up until 4 AM every night, she was starving, but every time she nursed she would start crying. I wondered if it was thrush. No. Reflux? No. What? What? What? What? Why was she doing this? Why wouldn't she eat? Those were some of the worst days of my entire life, I was getting no sleep and crying almost as much as she was.

Then we started going for craniosacral therapy, and I did crying in arms a few times. We now have a totally normal nursing relationship. She also has digestive problems, really gassy, unable to poop (exclusively BF), and we've been getting CST to help with that. I have also been going for myself. At her CST session last week, she finally opened up and released and cried (not top of the lungs, can't breathe screaming ... just crying). I held her and let her cry, told her she was safe and loved. But after a while got a very strong sense that she was angry with me for not protecting her (from the suctioning, etc.). I know she had to go through that because it was done to protect her from infection, but she still has the right to be upset about it and angry because she had to go through it. I looked in her eyes and told her I was sorry she had to go through that, and sorry that I hadn't protected her, and I told her I loved her so much. Within 10 seconds, the crying stopped, the sun came out and she started smiling and laughing, and had this incredible lightness to her. The next night she had a huge poop (without my help), and her gassiness has gone WAAAAY down. I'm actually able to sleep at night now because she isn't kicking me continuously as she squirms from the gas pains.

I remember crying so hard about nursing her, and begging, pleading to know what was wrong and how could I fix it. I would have given anything to not have my baby scream every time I nursed her. Nursing is supposed to comfort a baby, but she just screamed. I am so unbelievably grateful that we were able to sort this out, and that now I AM able to comfort dd by nursing when that is what she wants. She is now one of the happiest babies I've ever seen. Smiling and laughing all the time. Everywhere we go we get comments about how happy she is.

OP and kidspiration, I think you wrote about this issue beautifully. I know that coming to this realization and helping my dd process and express her emotions has resulted in a much happier baby, and hopefully one whose emotions won't fester and turn into physical illness. I was originally so miserable at the experience we had, but now I realize it's because there was a very important lesson to learn, and I'm grateful that I was given the opportunity to learn it. I apologize that this post is not written very elegantly, but I'm in a hurry so just trying to get everything down.

Is this anecdotal? Yup. But it's MY life, and it's a whole heck of a lot better now, and that's all that matters to me :). Each of us has to find our own path and figure out what works for us and our own babies. This is what worked for me.

[Dar]

I know a human infant can communicate with it's human mother. Maybe not in spoken English, but certainly without needing to cry before getting it's needs met.
That has nothing to do with what I said. Does he understand English well enough to realize that although you're choosing not to comfort him, you are verbally validating his pain? No, I don't think so.

Also, it has been proven in many studies that infants learn language from being spoken to in that language. I think you will damage your child's trust if you constantly repeat false statements while meeting its needs.Please read my post again. I never said anything of the sort to my child.


To me, that sounds like it borders on cruelty. To wait until your baby is crying before meeting it's needs.Again, nowhere did I say that I did this. My child rarely cried... but if she was unhappy, the clearest and most powerful way she has to communicate this is by crying.
I understand having a baby in pain, and it just takes time for the body to heal, and in the meantime I did what I could, warm bath, cool washcloth, anything to help ease the physical pain.I thought before you said you "actively listened and allowed our babies to heal". So warm baths and cool cloths are okay, but nursing isn't? They're both intended to comfort...

dar

[~member~]

That has nothing to do with what I said. Does he understand English well enough to realize that although you're choosing not to comfort him, you are verbally validating his pain? No, I don't think so. That was not said. It was stated that it is okay to speak while comforting your baby.

I thought before you said you "actively listened and allowed our babies to heal". So warm baths and cool cloths are okay, but nursing isn't? They're both intended to comfort...

darI agree, nursing should not be used for comfort, but as a means of nourishment. Same as ff babies and giving them the bottle everytime they cry can lead to eating disorders. It teaches them to eat, rather than heal.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Hmmm...children around the world are nursed for comfort, but eating disorders are a uniquely Western phenomenon. It's quite a stretch to me, baby eating for comfort leads to eating disorders...

[alegna]

I agree, nursing should not be used for comfort, but as a means of nourishment.

Excuse me? Nursing ABSOLUTELY SHOULD be used as a means of comfort. NOT just nourishment.

-Angela

[~member~]

Hmmm...children around the world are nursed for comfort, but eating disorders are a uniquely Western phenomenon. It's quite a stretch to me, baby eating for comfort leads to eating disorders...
I have never heard of that before. There are absolutely no formula fed people in my ancestry, and from generation to generation, it is taught not to nurse/feed for comfort. There is a difference from nursing-on-demand and comfort nursing vs nursing to comfort.
It has been shown in studies that "comfort nursing" is actually part of an infant's growing patterns and that is how the infant increases it's milk supply.

"Nursing to comfort" is the same as feeding to comfort, or teaching that, in order to feel comforted, one must eat/nurse, rather than allow the body to heal and adjust.

[~member~]

Excuse me? Nursing ABSOLUTELY SHOULD be used as a means of comfort. NOT just nourishment.

-AngelaWhy do you believe that?

[Jish]

My ds3 was a dream baby, rarely cried and when he did we knew exactly what he needed and we could take care of it.

My ds1 cried all the time. I don't say that lightly. He nursed an hour of every two, only slept in arms, and if he was awake, he was crying about 85% of the time. Talk about hard to live with. I held him all the time. I would try to find out what was making him cry but there just didn't always seem to be a reason, or if their was, we couldn't figure it out. We just had to chalk it up to colic, or that he was a fussy baby. It was heartbreaking, but we were with him when he cried and I'm hoping that he knew he was loved even though we couldn't solve whatever issue we couldn't figure out. Some kids are just fussier than others.

Now to the real reason for my post. Several years ago there was a study published about babies who cried excessively -- babies that would be classified as having classic colic symptoms. These babies were compared to babies who didn't have colic. When the babies cried their blood was drawn and the stress hormones were analyzed. The babies who did not have colic and were crying for some "reason" had elevated levels of cortisol and other stress hormones in their systems. Their heartrates and blood pressures were raised.

When the babies who had colic were analyzed they did not have raised levels of cortisol and other stress hormones. Their heartrates and blood pressures were not as high. The babies crying was not due to stress or unmet needs and thus they didn't have the stress reaction of the babies without colic who were crying due to stress. This isn't to say that babies with colic don't ever cry due to stress or because of typical baby needs. What it does do is reassure those of us who had/have truly colicky babies that our babies are alright. Perhaps their crying is due to an underdeveloped neurological system, perhaps it's something else, but this hopefully can help a lot of frazzled parents of colicky babies not feel guilty about their babies crying and their inability to stop it.

[Dar]

That has nothing to do with what I said. Does he understand English well enough to realize that although you're choosing not to comfort him, you are verbally validating his pain? No, I don't think so.

That was not said. It was stated that it is okay to speak while comforting your baby. When was that stated?
The part I responded to was about "actively listening" while your baby was crying, and "validating his feelings". Whether you're saying "validating" things or not, the baby wn't know the difference. He wants comfort, relief, soothing.. not words and "active listening" and "Validation."



I thought before you said you "actively listened and allowed our babies to heal". So warm baths and cool cloths are okay, but nursing isn't? They're both intended to comfort...

I agree, nursing should not be used for comfort, but as a means of nourishment. Same as ff babies and giving them the bottle everytime they cry can lead to eating disorders. It teaches them to eat, rather than heal. What? You're not agreeing with me, for sure. Of course nursing is intended to comfort! That's the wonder of nursing, that it comforts, feeds, relieves thirst, builds a connection, and lots of other things. I can't believe that anyone who has actually nursed a child could see it as simply a means of nourishment!

Dar

[WuWei]

Why do you believe that?

I have tried not to get sucked into this thread.....but :lol

Ummm...babies suck for comfort, therefore nursing provides this soothing physical comfort. If sucking for comfort is illegal, somebody better notify the manufacturer of oral babies, which are most all of them. :wink

And no, I don't believe their own fingers or a pacifier is preferable to most nursing babies. There are skin to skin contact hormonal changes that have been documented to help babies thrive even. :thumb

And the let them cry themselves to comfort in arms with eye contact and verbal "reassurance" instead of patting and shusshing and cuddling theory doesn't cut it imo. Motion and sound also are comforting to babies, some more than others. Actively seeking to comfort someone in whatever way they deem comfortable seems to be well......comforting. :throb

And for verbal children, meeting the underlying need or faciliating the underlying needs in some mutually agreeable manner seems to be advocacy and honoring of their emotions as valid. The act of facilitating rather than just 'yes you are sad, have a good cry' speaks louder than the words. And of course, when nothing one can do can help, comfort however the child prefers to the extent the child prefers to express their emotions.

Pat

[~member~]

My ds1 cried all the time. I don't say that lightly. He nursed an hour of every two, only slept in arms, and if he was awake, he was crying about 85% of the time. Talk about hard to live with. I held him all the time. I would try to find out what was making him cry but there just didn't always seem to be a reason, or if their was, we couldn't figure it out. ....not feel guilty about their babies crying and their inability to stop it.
See, in your post it sounds like exactly what I am talking about. You didn't "give up" and say, "Well, I am unable to stop the crying, so I am gonna just put the baby down." You held your baby, even after you had exhausted all other options.
And there is nothing wrong with having a baby that needs to heal/cry more than another baby.
I am just saying that it is okay to speak to your baby after you have reached that stage. Don't just hold him, but also communicate.
I know, for me, it helps to lower my stress and helps me be patient when my infant needs my full attention.

I say things like, "Mommy is here! I see you. I am right here with you. I love you. I want you to be happy and feel loved." Just some reasurring phrases so they know they have my full attention.

[~member~]

And for verbal children, meeting the underlying need or faciliating the underlying needs in some mutually agreeable manner seems to be advocacy and honoring of their emotions as valid. The act of facilitating rather than just 'yes you are sad, have a good cry' speaks louder than the words. And of course, when nothing one can do can help, comfort however the child prefers to the extent the child prefers to express their emotions.

PatSo, are you saying that an infant can never feel scared, overwhelmed, frustrated, but only comfortable or uncomfortable?

[Dar]

Kathy Dettwyler on "non-nutritive sucking":
http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detsuck.html
At the same time, we really need to start teaching people that breastfeeding is a multi-factorial, complex interaction between two people that has ramifications for the child's nutritional status, to be sure, but also its ability to deal with disease, its physiology, its emotional and cognitive development
For those who don't know her (or of her), Kathy is an anthropologist who has written extensively about breastfeeding, and she's also a mom who breastfed her son.:)
Here's another one, that talks about reasons to breastfeed besides nutrition:
http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detfreq.html

dar

[flyingspaghettimama]

I just have a hard time believing one could force a child to breastfeed for some sort of be-quiet-now comfort. During our halcyon colic days, I certainly couldn't use nursing as my super-secret jujitsu comfort weapon DeLuxe. He would just scream harder when I tried to nurse. So, on to attempt comfort measure number 238.

I imagine we are all somewhat similar in our meanings but the definitions are funny. What is comfort nursing vs. nursing to comfort? I mean, after my son had a quick surgery (not circumcision, thankyouverymuch) it was very wonderful that he was able to nurse right afterwards. Whether it was for comfort, for hunger, for some other reason, I don't know...but it helped us to reconnect and reassured me that he was healthy.

The terminology - What is nursing-on-demand for me is "too much nursing" and "using food as a comfort measure" to Certain Opinionated Relatives. Who never nursed and FF by choice.

[Hoopin' Mama]

I totally understand the concept that crying can be healing. Heck, I cried the other day for almost an hour and my body needed that purge. I haven't felt this good in a long time. I responded the way that I did because the post was in the Life w/a Babe forum, and also I was feeling a little prickly b/c lately there seems to be posts kinda defending CIO.

I think that we can be in tune with our older toddlers and children and understand when they are frustrated and just need a pair of loving arms or the presence and safety of a parent. I think we are in tune with our babies also, but since they don't know the language yet, a little more is required of us than just talking to them when they are upset. Trying different ways of soothing is a good thing.

[Hoopin' Mama]

You know, a tiny baby doesn't know whether you're saying, "Yes, I'm here for you, please go ahead and cry" or "The moon is made of blue cheese and we shall go there someday." Active listening is pretty pointless if the person being listened to doesn't speak your language...

I agree. Trying to comfort a child does not mean trying to stop him from crying, it means trying to resolve the reason for his crying. It's an important distinction. If the crying itself resolves the problem, fine, but I guess I don't see most small babies as having quite as much unresolved existential angst as some posters seem to - I think mostly they cry because they're hungry, or sleepy, or in pain, or uncomfortable.


Not only are you making excellent points, you are also cracking me up.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Kathy Dettwyler on "non-nutritive sucking":
http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detsuck.html


This is what I meant about comfort nursing in traditional societies (that don't have eating disorders). NNS is the norm. Whereas in Western society, we have pacifiers for the NNS, yet still have eating disorders.

Regardless, I think eating disorders is just a nonissue when it comes to breastfeeding. Via studies, the formula-feeding and lack of portion control that comes later are shown to be related; but inverse is true of breastfed babies. BF babies tend to have better portion control as toddlers, and they were certainly comfort nursing some of the time. They control the milk.

[Hoopin' Mama]

To me, that sounds like it borders on cruelty. To wait until your baby is crying before meeting it's needs.

No one here is advocating that :nut I doubt anyone here does that. This is an Attachment Parenting board for cripes sakes.

[Hoopin' Mama]

I just have to say this and then I will be going to bed:

If your baby is crying and is soothed by nursing,
GO AHEAD AND PUT THAT BOOBIE IN THEIR MOUTH. IT'S AN EXCELLENT FORM OF COMFORT.

[alegna]

If your baby is crying and is soothed by nursing,
GO AHEAD AND PUT THAT BOOBIE IN THEIR MOUTH. IT'S AN EXCELLENT FORM OF COMFORT.

:clap

[maya44]

Hmm, interesting thread.

I wonder what the OP vs the other PP's views would have been on my oldest DD.

She did not like to be touched as an infant (yes I know very odd and scary, but she is a normal healthy 12 y.o. now).

When I nursed her I had to keep my hands away from her. She was happiest in her stroller. When she cried because she was hungry, tired etc... and I picked her up to meet her needs I found that I had to put her down fairly quickly or she would cry in a more urgent fashion and for a long long time. I found that when I put her down again as soon as possible after meeting her needs, she would calm quickly and be happy again.

I guess the OP would say I should have kept holding her and letting her cry but that never occurred to me.

[FitMama]

Comfort nursing/non-nutritive nursing not only soothes my baby, but me as well! It's a win-win. I signed on for this whole bfing thing for both the kids and myself.

Re: crying. Doesn't it depend on one's particular baby? Sounds like many of you moms with more than one child are adept at reading each child's cues. "The overlooked healing benefits of crying"...is painting with too broad a brush. Every child is different.

[nicholas_mom]

The last time it happened with this ferocity, she was crying and pushing against me (not to get away, but using me as resistance to her mighty pushing), crying loudly and red-faced. Then she stopped, looked right at me, and said, "I was stuck. It was red and wet and I was pulled and it HURT." She buried her face in my lap and cried with many round fat tears. She *was* stuck at birth.

I want to thank you for sharing this because, I also follow Dr. Althea Solter's suggestion. But I did let him nurse when he asked to nurse when he would be so upset.

Anyway.....Want I to thank you is now my son will have a tantrum and say he is stuck. Well, my dh and I always think his emotions are stuck in his body and he is trying to let it out.

Well, he was STUCK AT BIRTH and the doc had to use forceps (I had a really bad midwife!) to get him out. When he has a tantrum now he goes to a corner and says he stuck and he tries to push the walls but it is obvious he is NOT stuck, because he can walk away anytime. It is odd. Now I need to discuss this with dh (he is a psychotherapist). Ds was colicky like your child, too. :(

[~member~]

Re: crying. Doesn't it depend on one's particular baby? Sounds like many of you moms with more than one child are adept at reading each child's cues. "The overlooked healing benefits of crying"...is painting with too broad a brush. Every child is different.I completely agree, but I also know for a fact that EVERY human being deserves to be able to cry when they need to heal.
Not be taught how to "stop crying".

[~member~]

I just have to say this and then I will be going to bed:

If your baby is crying and is soothed by nursing,
GO AHEAD AND PUT THAT BOOBIE IN THEIR MOUTH. IT'S AN EXCELLENT FORM OF COMFORT.
ITA, but the OP is not talking about an UNCOMFORTABLE baby, but an infant that needs to HEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[~member~]

I want to thank you for sharing this because, I also follow Dr. Althea Solter's suggestion. But I did let him nurse when he asked to nurse when he would be so upset.

Anyway.....Want I to thank you is now my son will have a tantrum and say he is stuck. Well, my dh and I always think his emotions are stuck in his body and he is trying to let it out.

Well, he was STUCK AT BIRTH and the doc had to use forceps (I had a really bad midwife!) to get him out. When he has a tantrum now he goes to a corner and says he stuck and he tries to push the walls but it is obvious he is NOT stuck, because he can walk away anytime. It is odd. Now I need to discuss this with dh (he is a psychotherapist). Ds was colicky like your child, too. :( You shared an excellent story of how the twoo are related. If your infant had been able to deal with that trauma immediately, maybe he would not have held onto it and felt 'stuck' in releasing his emotions in a healthy and healing manner.

[captain crunchy]

It is a fuzzy line I think where a lot of people may think "gee, my child may need to cry so I am going to let them" when, in reality they are letting their child CIO.

I agree that when your child is sad, or dissapointed or whatever that it is not right to say "oh you're fine" and try to make them stop crying when at the moment they feel like crying.

However, most infants and babies cry for a reason and most of the time, if not all the time, want to be comforted and soothed -- even if they feel the need to cry for a bit. Withholding things like nursing when you know your baby will be comforted by it, in order to "honor" their "need" to cry seems like a justification for CIO to me.

When our daughter cries I don't soothe her to immediately stop the crying. I soothe her because MOST human beings desire to be empathised with, or soothed, or heard, or comforted when they are upset --- and if my husband or an adult friend felt soothed by something I could provide, I would provide it to comfort them. The fact that the comfort may help them feel better or stop crying isn't my ultimate goal, though it is nice when I can help comfort someone. I wouldn't ever deny my husband or a friend something I could provide that I knew would comfort them because I felt they needed to cry. They are always *allowed* to cry if they feel the need.

The same with our daughter. Allowing her to cry when she is sad/mad/dissapointed (whatever) is far different than withholding something I know will soothe her because *I* have determined that she *needs* to cry. If she needs to cry, she will cry despite my attempts to soothe and comfort.

[~member~]

However, most infants and babies cry for a reason and most of the time, if not all the time, want to be comforted and soothed -- even if they feel the need to cry for a bit. Withholding things like nursing when you know your baby will be comforted by it, in order to "honor" their "need" to cry seems like a justification for CIO to me.No where has CIO been advocated. I am sorry parents are unable or unwilling to differentiate between their infants needs.

I disagree that an infant mostly cries to be soothed or comforted. I know that when a an infant cries, they have a REASON to cry, and it is important, as an adult and parent, to respond and help the infant, whether it is to "comfort and soothe" while actively listening and allowing the infant to heal.

I think it is wrong and dangerous to constantly believe that, you as the parent, must make your baby stop crying.

Crying does not equal "need to stop crying", as, it has been pointed out that there is a reason for an infant to cry.

[Dar]

ITA, but the OP is not talking about an UNCOMFORTABLE baby, but an infant that needs to HEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And you do you suggest people differentiate between the two? Really, what exactly does a "need to heal" cry sound like, in an infant? It seems to me that one would try mightily to relieve any possible discomfort first, and then if nothing works *maybe* assume that these are "healing tears"... or else assume that you're been unsucessful in determining their cause, so you will just continue to soothe and comfort as best you know how.

Dar

[QueenOfThePride]

I think the strictly emotional crying is more a toddler/child thing. I can only speak from my own experience, but when DS was a baby, he hardly ever cried. And when he did it was because he needed something. Now as a toddler, he has a richer emotional life and sometimes just needs to cry to express himself. Now when he cries, I know I don't always need to fret and try to find the reason and fix it. Sometimes he just needs to get it all out of his system and I just comfort him. I am thinking that was the point the OP was trying to make.

[MamaBug]

I think that so many are getting confused because the word infant was used in the opening post. I guess most ppl feel that an infant has only one way to communicate, crying and that we as mothers must find out the cause to the best of our abilities. Yes there are babies that just need to cry, I would liken it to colic, no reason they just seem to NEED to cry. I feel that I need to find out why my child is/was crying and make it better. If I can't then I will continue to be there for my child.

[Shanana]

This is what I did when my dd cried in the first months of her life (and there was a lot of crying, as I mentioned in my previous post, as well as a frequent refusal to nurse) ... First, check to see if I could identify the cause: Hungry? Tired? Hot? Cold? Wet? Gassy? In pain? Any underlying medical causes (reflux, thrush, etc.)? If the answer was no, then I felt really frustrated. What was wrong with her? Why was she crying? What was I doing wrong? Each additional moment of crying felt like an indictment of my parenting abilities (or lack thereof). DH and I went to herculean lengths to try to stop her -- hours of walking, bouncing, shushing, swaying, trying to get her to nurse, and finally I would cry, and then scream in frustration, "DO SOMETHING. WHY IS THIS HAPPENING? MAKE HER STOP." Collapse on the floor in tears, dh trying to soothe screaming baby and sobbing wife simultaneously.

And then I read the article in Mothering about crying in arms. It was one of the most intense "AHA!" moments of my life. It made so much sense! After that, when dd cried, I still went down my list. When I could not identify an underlying cause, this is what I did: I took really deep breaths and tried to relax. I tried to let go of how uncomfortable her crying made ME. I tried to stop seeing it as an indictment of ME. I tried to stop making it about ME. And I stopped going to herculean lengths to silence her. Instead, I tried to open myself to her, I held her, swayed with her, made my breast available to her (she almost always refused it), and I whispered in her ear, over and over and over that I heard her, that I loved her, that she could let it all out, that I was listening to her, that she was safe and loved, that I would never reject or abandon her. Frequently, I cried too, because it pained me so much to see her like that. My instinct told me that she was traumatized from her birth experience, and it broke my heart to think of her, all alone, moments after birth, held down on a table with bright lights overhead while doctors repeatedly shoved tubes down her nose and throat, suctioning out the meconium-stained amniotic fluid. While I sat helplessly on the other side of the room, in a stupor, waiting to be stitched up, so exhausted from 3 days of labor that I hardly knew what was going on. So I would cry with her, and grieve what happened to us. I tried to hold her tight to me, but she would flail her arms and legs, hitting me. The intensity of the fury that was contained in that tiny body always took my breath away. Standing, swaying, rocking, holding her, allowing her to express her rage was one of the hardest things I have ever done. It felt so personal, like she was attacking me. It sometimes took all of my will not to get angry in return. I would remind myself -- deep breaths, relax, it's okay for her to be angry, or sad, or whatever. And after a while (5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes -- although it seemed like an eternity), the crying would start to subside, and she would take deep, shuddering breaths, and she would finally, finally turn her head to my breast and nurse. And then she would sleep. Thankfully, once I started doing this, her crying subsided considerably, and we only had to do the crying in arms a handful of times.

And we also discovered craniosacral therapy (CST), which helped so much because the therapist can tell by the rhythms of the cranial fluid whether the crying is a psychosomatic release or not. So it gave me even more confidence that she WAS processing an emotional trauma, and it wasn't just me overlooking an unmet need. And now nursing is normal, and her digestion is normalizing, and the crying is practically non-existent (only when hungry or tired or hurt). And I feel really good that I am not stifling my child's emotions in order to meet my own needs (i.e., stopping her crying because it makes me uncomfortable), but instead teaching her that it's safe to express them and I will listen, and I won't judge, criticize or condemn (which is what happened to me when I was growing up).

And that is how it has worked for us. I don't withhold comfort from my child. I don't overlook needs she may have. And, I also allow her to express herself, which sometimes means I have to set aside my discomfort with her crying, and allow her to let it out -- offering comfort all the while, but not using it in a desperate attempt to silence her.

[~member~]

And you do you suggest people differentiate between the two? Really, what exactly does a "need to heal" cry sound like, in an infant?
Shanana gave an excellent example of how she was able to differentiate her infants needs.
I tried to let go of how uncomfortable her crying made ME. I tried to stop seeing it as an indictment of ME. I tried to stop making it about ME. This part shows how often we forget that an infant has needs, and it is not always about our performance as a parent.
Too often, it is taught that a baby is only a machine-eat, sleep, poop, and cry. Infants are newborn human beings each with their own complex needs/wants.

[DevaMajka]

No offense, but can you back this statement up with anything other than anecdotal evidence?



If my son is crying, and I nurse him and that's not what he wants, he just won't nurse.
I'm just curious where you're coming up with this theory.

Coming in late, and I haven't read all pp's.
My ds (now 18 mos) would most certainly accept nursing, and stop crying, no matter what the REASON that he was crying. It took me a while to figure out that sometimes when he cried (when he was very young) it was because he was overstimulated. What he NEEDED was to go to a quiet room. But, back then, I though the goal was to just get a baby to stop crying, and nursing made him stop. But it wasn't what he needed, or wanted, at all.
Essentially, it just gave him a way to deal with a less than desireable situation, instead of helping him get into a more desireable one.

[DevaMajka]

And, imo, nursing should not be "withheld"- I see NOTHING wrong with comfort nursing. If my ds shows ANY indication that he wants to nurse- crying or not, happy or unhappy- I do so. (If I'm busy, and he's agreeable to waiting, we wait a minute.)
BUT, if he cries, and shows no indication that he WANTS to nurse, I don't *make* him stop crying by nursing him (which would stop most crying, regardless of the reason). If he's crying, I try to address the reason.
He currently cries when he feels that I haven't acknowledged his feelings/thoughts/desires. If I were to nurse him, he'd stop crying quickly. But its not addressing the reason at all. The right thing to do, imo, is to acknowledge him, even if it takes a bit longer for him to stop crying. My goal isn't to stop the crying asap. Its to deal with the reason- to do what he wants- if I am able to do so.
If I can't really address the reason, say if he bumps his head and it hurts (not a major hurt, obviously), I don't nurse him, unless he wants to nurse (and trust me, he lets me know). I know he likes to be walked around (he wants to), so I walk with him, and talk quietly to him. He's generally good to go in less than a minute. If someone tries to distract him from crying, it takes much longer, and the cries go from "that hurts!" to can't-hardly-breath-I'm-so-upset. Don't know exactly why, but that's what happens.
If, at any point, he shows any indication that he wants something (a toy, to flip a light switch, to nurse, to read a book, anything) we do it. But I'm not going to say "oh, here play with this, flip the switch, nurse, let's read. Anything- just stop crying" to try to distract him from crying. It introduces too much frenzy into an already unhappy situation. Its not respectful. He deserves to have a calm situation, to calm down in. And he deserves to have his desires respected. If that's nursing, fine. But if its not, that's fine too.

[nicholas_mom]

First, check to see if I could identify the cause: Hungry? Tired? Hot? Cold? Wet? Gassy? In pain? Any underlying medical causes (reflux, thrush, etc.)? If the answer was no, then I felt really frustrated. What was wrong with her? Why was she crying? What was I doing wrong? Each additional moment of crying felt like an indictment of my parenting abilities (or lack thereof). DH and I went to herculean lengths to try to stop her -- hours of walking, bouncing, shushing, swaying, trying to get her to nurse, and finally I would cry, and then scream in frustration, "DO SOMETHING. WHY IS THIS HAPPENING? MAKE HER STOP." Collapse on the floor in tears, dh trying to soothe screaming baby and sobbing wife simultaneously.

:Hug I did the EXACT samething! It was just awful. When all else failed attempts, espesially NOt WANTING to nurse, its hopeless. The problem with ds was he would cry and then throw up, which made it even worse :( . My homeopathic doctor gave prescribed some homeopathic remedy that was for colicky or teething problems. I could never tell if it was teething or emotional crying. So, if my attempts failed I let him cry in my arms for 3-5 mins then I would give the homeopathic remedy to help him.

I figure if it was emotional stuff, he had another time to release them, hence the 2 yr old tantrums.

[M&Mmommy]

I think that so many are getting confused because the word infant was used in the opening post.

Most of the information I have used to come to the conclusion that what I said in the OP was true for children and babies as well came from Mothering Magazine. I am gobsmacked that no one has commented yet on how surprised they were when they found out it's not just me who thought this up.

Mothering.com Article
http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/bonding/connection-side1.html
Peggy O'Mara says the following (and see quotes from others like Dr. Sears and T. Berry Brazelton in Mothering Articles as well below):
"Peggy O’Mara: “Sometimes babies and children, like adults, need a good cry. . . . Ignoring your child’s cries is never a good idea. But sometimes it can be reassuring to your child to be allowed to cry in the safety of your loving arms. . . . Try holding your baby during these episodes of release crying. You may find that the crying subsides, or you may conclude that your baby needs to cry to release stress. Either way, you are offering your baby the comfort of your touch.”
—Natural Family Living. Pocket Books, 2000..”

Mothering Magazine
Issue 122 January/February 2004
http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/bonding/connection.html
"Another advantage of this approach is that toddlers who have cried enough as infants (while being held), and who continue to be supported emotionally as they grow older, are calm and gentle. They do not hit or bite other children."

and

"However, if there is no medical reason for the crying, it is likely that your baby simply needs to release stress."

Mothering Magazine
Issue 115 - November/December 2002
http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/toddlers/tantrums.html
"My niece had been having similar "sessions" related to being in tight places since she was six months old. Her father and mother learned to hold her close and support her during these times, guessing that she had become terrified during her birth; she'd been lodged in the birth canal for three hours before her mother could push her through. Her parents' listening helped her work through the leftover fears she carried from that experience. For a couple of years, she signaled for a long screaming, struggling session almost daily. She began life as a wary, coolly watchful baby. By the time she was three, she had become relaxed and cuddly--a total transformation of personality that our whole family witnessed with wonder. She's now a teen, an athlete, a scholar, and a fearless young woman."


I guess most ppl feel that an infant has only one way to communicate, crying and that we as mothers must find out the cause to the best of our abilities.... <snip>....I feel that I need to find out why my child is/was crying and make it better. If I can't then I will continue to be there for my child.

Like with almost every other post in this thread, I agree. I suggest that crying for emotional release is one of the causes to add to the checklist of reasons for crying. Releasing intense emotion makes it better, so making a safe and attentive space for that crying is helping.

Additionally, listening with warmth and caring attention without trying to fix an older child's tears is a very good practice. Do you disagree? I'm curious where the lines are drawn with some of you when it comes to this thread's message.

In peace,
M&Mmommy

[alegna]

The line to me is that if nursing STOPS the crying (or shushing or holding or patting or whatever) then THAT is what the baby needs. As long as the nursing is STOPPING the crying then it should be done.

-Angela

[M&Mmommy]

Alegna,

OK, I'm hearing you. Thanks for responding, too.

Sounds like you believe that stopping a baby from crying is extremely important, and you'll do whatever you can think of to help your baby stop crying. What do you think about an older child's tears or tantrums? Do you think any loving measure should be taken to stop his or her crying?

Yours,
ymmomM&M :down

p.s. this is *not* a set-up question where you reply and I try to pick apart your answer. I'm sincerely asking your thoughts.

[flyingspaghettimama]

The line to me is that if nursing STOPS the crying (or shushing or holding or patting or whatever) then THAT is what the baby needs. As long as the nursing is STOPPING the crying then it should be done.

-Angela
:thumb

If a baby/toddler does not NEED the breast, or white noise, or CST, or homeopathics, or holding, or whatever, they will still let you know via crying. And then I could see the crying-in-arms argument, because honestly, what else can you possibly do? But if nursing, rocking, shushing calms them and helps them to center, then good job, mama!

FWIW, because my firstborn had colic after an incredibly traumatic, stressful birth, I really used to believe colic had to do with this. But the second had it too after the happy hippie waterbirth! So, some kids just need a little more - but I never would have stopped offering things until we found what worked for him. What he needed, in other words.

[Dar]

Alegna,
Sounds like you believe that stopping a baby from crying is extremely important, and you'll do whatever you can think of to help your baby stop crying. I'm not Alegna... but really, babies are crying because something is *wrong*. I don't think the focus is so much on stopping the crying, but on helping the child feel better, and helping fix what is wrong. When babies are happy and no longer is distress, they don't cry. If nursing does that, great. If a quiet room works, fabulous. If simply being held and crying works, that's fine too... but I do think that needing to cry to resolve underlying trauma is pretty far down on the list of reasons why babies cry.


What do you think about an older child's tears or tantrums? Do you think any loving measure should be taken to stop his or her crying? I've always tried to use loving measures to help comfort an older child who was crying, just as I would with an infant. Again, I don't think stopping the crying was ever the issue - the issue is whether or not to comfort, through any means that is effective.

Dar

[boongirl]

Alegna,

OK, I'm hearing you. Thanks for responding, too.

Sounds like you believe that stopping a baby from crying is extremely important, and you'll do whatever you can think of to help your baby stop crying. What do you think about an older child's tears or tantrums? Do you think any loving measure should be taken to stop his or her crying?
.

I still do not understand why some feel it is ok to let a child cry? I think that some parents thwart emotional outlets by telling their children never to cry. But, that is very different from responding to a child who is crying or having a tantrum in a way that is kind and gentle and seeks to help that child relax and stop crying/tantruming. There is no thwarting of emotions involved in the latter. To me this is just an important part of being an attached, emotionally responsive parent - you do what you can to help your children be emotionally balanced and you respond to their needs. When children cry, I think they are letting out their emotions and they are also asking for help. When I cry, I want to let my emotions out but I also want a hug and someone to help me get over whatever I am crying about.

I still think that just letting a child cry and not doing anything at all to help it stop, is not an appropriately gentle and responsive approach. My child was colicky for 10 hours a day as an infant and I did whatever I could to help her out of that, to calm her, to respond to her, to help her. I never saw her crying as cathartic in and of itself. It was always a response to overstimulation and I saw it as my job to help calm her down and soothe her nerves. My child has never had a full blown tantrum but when she gets close, I see it as my job to help solve the problem at hand in a responsive and kind way in order to help her not be so upset.

Do you think any loving measure should be taken to stop his or her crying? YES

[M&Mmommy]

FWIW, because my firstborn had colic after an incredibly traumatic, stressful birth, I really used to believe colic had to do with this. But the second had it too after the happy hippie waterbirth! So, some kids just need a little more - but I never would have stopped offering things until we found what worked for him. What he needed, in other words.

FSM, I get the impression from your post that you object to the idea of stopping before finding the cause and offering something to alleviate the resulting pain. Is that correct? I ask because I felt I had learned the cause, when for example, my 1st born twin DD threw tantrum after tantrum about wanting to be "the leader" wherever anyone walked with her. I discovered via many occasions of holding her and hearing her tears (without trying to stop her crying) during the tantrums that she was wildly angry and upset about being left in the IICN (one step down from NICU) while her sister went home for the first 15 days of her life. She has told me she is afraid she'll be left behind, and she's been working on letting this anger out for going on four years. I was relieved to find out what was making her so furious, so I could help alleviate the pain. I have listened to her cry in my arms many times and told her she'll never be left alone again. I have apologized and cried with her because I left her there at all and didn't bring her home with me or camp out there.

Can you see how I would think of this as not stopping until I found out the cause of her anguish?

Warmly,
M&Mmommy

[M&Mmommy]

I still do not understand why some feel it is ok to let a child cry?
Boongirl, what do you think about T. Berry Brazelton, Dr. Sears, Peggy O'mara, and others explanations for why they feel it is okay to hold a child and lovingly be with her while she cries?


I still think that just letting a child cry and not doing anything at all to help it stop, is not an appropriately gentle and responsive approach.

I hope this doesn't sound defensive, but I have never stood by doing nothing at all while either of my DDs cried. Not in any way at all.

With respect,
M&Mmommy

[M&Mmommy]

Again, I don't think stopping the crying was ever the issue - the issue is whether or not to comfort, through any means that is effective.

I feel like I completely agree with what you said here. One difference, I guess, is that if my DC only finds comfort,(and I've gone thru the checklist of other possible causes) after offloading a big enormous cry, I feel the means (crying while supported emotionally, in this case) was effective. KWIM?

Seeking to understand,
M&Mmommy

[boongirl]

From p18 of Dr. Sears The Discipline Book :

"Responding to your baby's cries is discipline 101. When your baby cries, pick him up and comfort him. Don't waste time wondering, "should I pick him up?" Just do it. A baby's cry is his language - listen to it! A baby's cry is designed to ensure tht his needs for food, holding, rest, and social interaction are met. Responding to your baby's cries is your first exercise in teaching your baby to trust you. We do not mean to imply that it is your job to make your baby stop crying. Only a baby can do that. It is your job to help him stop crying. Yet there will be times that your baby does keep crying because even your holding him or feeding him doesn't help,and you'll have some research to do. The difference is he's not being left to cryalone. You continue to hold, rock, bounce, jiggle, take a walk outside - do whatever it takes to help him. Just being with him helps, and you'll learn as you go. The cry is baby's first communication tool. Listen to it."

p.19 goes on to say " Teach your baby to cry better. Responding to a baby's cries is not only good for the baby and the parents, its also good for the relationship." He then writes about how responding to the baby's cries help mellow the ear-shattering cries that they first do. "Babies whose early cries receive a nurturant response learn to cry better - their cries are mellow and do not take on a more disturbing quality. The ultimate in crying sensitivity happens when you become so fine-tuned to your baby's body language that you read and respond to the precry signal and intervene before crying is necessary. A very attached and nurtarant mother who was well on her way to becoming a good disciplinarian told us, "My baby seldom cries. She does not need to." p.20


From: http://www.askdrsears.com/html/5/t051200.asp#t051204
What cry research tells us. Researchers Sylvia Bell and Mary Ainsworth performed studies in the 1970's that should have put the spoiling theory on the shelf to spoil forever. (It is interesting that up to that time and even to this day, the infant development writers that preached the cry-it-out advice were nearly always male. It took female researchers to begin to set things straight.) These researchers studied two groups of mother-infant pairs. Group 1 mothers gave a prompt and nurturant response to their infant's cries. Group 2 mothers were more restrained in their response. They found that children in Group 1 whose mothers had given an early and more nurturant response were less likely to use crying as a means of communication at one year of age. These children seemed more securely attached to their mothers and had developed better communicative skills, becoming less whiny and manipulative.

I know you are not referring to cry it out but I think this quote is good for making the point that a nurturant response to crying leads to less crying.


Peggy does talk about what she calls the The Crying in arms approach (http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/bonding/connection.html) . This must be what you are talking about.

To implement the crying-in-arms approach, the first thing to do when your baby cries is to look for all possible needs. When all immediate needs are filled and your baby is still crying, even though you are holding her lovingly in your arms, a helpful response is to continue holding her while trying to relax. This is not the time to continue searching frantically for one remedy after another to stop the crying. Take your baby to a peaceful room and hold her calmly in a position that is comfortable for both of you. Look into her eyes and talk to her gently and reassuringly while expressing the deep love you have for her. Try to surrender to her need to release stress through crying, and listen respectfully to what she is “telling” you.37, 38 Your baby will probably welcome the opportunity to have a good cr

I used to go to one of those emotional release therapy practitioners. This is one philosophy of many when it comes to psychotherapy. He drove me nuts trying to get me to cry to release my stress. I did not want to cry to release my stress. When I cry, I want a hug and some good advice. I have never cried ever in my life where I have just wanted to sit and cry and just let it go for stress relief. I respect anyone who does feel the need to do that but I do not understand how one can really and truly know for sure that their child is crying for merely the release of stress or something else. (I spent 2 years, off and on, with that counselor until I finally found one I like better. )

Peggy says in that article that you should try all the known remedies you can but not to go crazy finding solutions, just to relax and let the baby cry. I am more in the Dr. Sears camp that I believe my child's crying is a signal for help. As the mother in Dr Sears book said My baby seldom cries. She does not need to.

Kathy

[alegna]

Alegna,

OK, I'm hearing you. Thanks for responding, too.

Sounds like you believe that stopping a baby from crying is extremely important, and you'll do whatever you can think of to help your baby stop crying. What do you think about an older child's tears or tantrums? Do you think any loving measure should be taken to stop his or her crying?

Yours,
ymmomM&M :down

p.s. this is *not* a set-up question where you reply and I try to pick apart your answer. I'm sincerely asking your thoughts.

Stopping a baby from crying IS important in that the crying tells us SOMETHING is wrong. If we can help, we should. Older children cry for lots of reasons, but in most cases can express their feelings in some form or fashion beyond crying. I'm a BIG fan of talking- unfortunately babies don't have that down yet ;)

FWIW my dd is 18 months now. When she has a serious fall or bump or scrape, I DO offer to nurse. Sometimes she will, and it makes her feel better. Sometimes she won't, and that's fine. But I wouldn't NOT offer just because I know she's crying because she's hurt not because she's hungry. Does that make sense? We should offer to comfort babies and children in appropriate ways. Nursing and hugs- good. Here's a cookie, be quiet- not so good. I don't have an issue with the fact that SOME babies SOME times cry and need to just let it out. I do have a problem with witholding something that SEEMS to comfort them (ie, stop the crying) because you're making the intellectual leap that they must need to just cry. Crying in arms SOMEtimes is the best thing (when all other things have been checked) But it should not be assumed that ALL babies need to do it.

-Angela

[M&Mmommy]

For another pov, here's another quote from the Sears' (also cited on Mothering.com).

"William and Martha Sears: “Research has shown that crying is a healthy part of the recovery process—a physiologic aid to releasing stored stress. . . . Lucky is the child who feels the freedom to cry without rebuke. Wise is the parent who gives a supportive presence. There is a big difference between allowing your baby to cry (without panic on your part!) and leaving her to cry alone and uncomforted.”
—The Baby Book, 2nd ed. Little, Brown and Company, 2003."

I have to say I respect all the mothers who have posted here. I get the impression that lots of thought and insight has gone into this subject. And many of you have pointed out the big difference between stopping a child from expressing tears and sadness simply because their crying makes us uncomfortable, versus the nurturing desire to help the person (young or old) feel better. I feel that nurturing desire too, and in that, I don't feel very different from you at all.

With kindness,
M&Mmommy

[heartmama]

This is one of those topics where people seem to either

~Feel perplexed, confused, or even upset, and don't find the discussion persuasive enough to change that feeling

~Or they go "Aha, yes, EXACTLY!" because they totally and completely get what the OP is describing, based on their own real life experiences.

I am in the second category. I totally understand EXACTLY what the OP means when she says there is another type of crying that a baby can express.

My son had a terribly traumatic babyhood. He needed several life saving surgeries in a short period of time.

I knew in my heart of mothering hearts that sometimes he cried over painful memories. What this looks like or how it sounds can't be described in a way that persuades a doubtful person. But it can be described in a way that will make a parent in the same situation go "Oh my gosh, yes, thank you, you get it!!". You just know. I just knew. It was so perfectly clear. His eyes could have been anyone's, and he would give me a look that transcended the physical space. It was a very deep kind of connection, of a shared pain. The way any person might look at you, look away, cringe, break down in tears, then collect themselves and look back at you for a validation over what was revealed, it is just something you intuitively recognize as emotional communication.

You can't learn anything from this topic if you lift it out of the context of what is being described.

Just to point out the hot button topic of nursing~and i am not commenting here on anything other than the OP's words on this~I will point this out.

I don't think the OP means that being comforted by nursing is a problem. I think the point is that something that looks like comfort nursing to the detached observer, but feels like a distracting frantic boob dance that escalates the parents' sense of confusion and helplessness, is the problem. Not all babies will send pefectly clear "yes/no" responses to the offer to nurse. I know my son would almost always suck anything put in his mouth for at least a few seconds, as though trying to identify what it was and then decide if he wanted it. So for those few seconds he was quiet. Then he would spit it out and scream. But then he would seem to root and want it again, and then spit it out and scream. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

Harmful? No, I don't think it was harmful. Comforting? No. Distracting? Yes. And that is the point. The distinction between nursing to comfort and nursing to distraction is just stone cold clear when you have a baby who does it. It is not clear if your baby does not do this. And even when they do it, it takes you as the parent a while to grasp what the heck is going on. Especially when the topic of crying is split so deeply into "CIO vs. AP" camps. If he had settled into a nice, long, quiet, cozy nursing-to-sleep-session, then great. But he didn't. And he didn't hold up his hand and say "Please mother, no distractions now, I would like to vent" either. I had to figure out what his mixed signals were telling me. And then, I needed some kind of validation that my intuition was guiding me down a path that others had travelled.

And that is who threads like this really help. The sensitive, responsive, attentive parent who is learning about their expressive baby, and not finding answers in the black and white threads on crying. I don't care if ten pages of people cast doubtful glances on this topic. Just every so often someone is going to read this and go "Wow, yes, THANK YOU!" and walk away a more confident, capable parent.

[Dar]

One difference, I guess, is that if my DC only finds comfort,(and I've gone thru the checklist of other possible causes) after offloading a big enormous cry, I feel the means (crying while supported emotionally, in this case) was effective. KWIM?

Well... I do think that sometimes people end up with a lot of pent-up frustration and stress, and crying can be a way to release that. So, right now I'm worried about my father's upcoming open-heart surgery, and I've been working a lot, and not sleeping enough, and the dog had diarrhea on the carpet, and I just got my period, and really, one more stressful even could easily send me over the edge and I would just start sobbing. And if that happened, it would be great if someone just sat next to me and rubbed my shoulders and held me while I cried. If anyone would like to volunteer, come on over...

OTOH, if a baby's needs are being met, I'm not seeing how he will end up with this kind of emotional build-up. I know that sometimes when a baby is uncomfortable and the parent can't or doesn't figure out why and help relieve the discomfort, the baby can escalate into just crying to relieve tension and frustration, and sometimes even if you do figure out what the problem was, resolving it won't immediately cause the crying to stop. I still think one should continue looking for the underlying problem, though.

And I do not believe that a one week-old baby can understand at any level that a twin is going home with mom and she is being left behind. The cenceptual framework, the language abilities, the cognitive abilities... they're just not there yet. I think that giving a child these kinds of reasons as validation for her feelings is harmful because it disregards what is really going on in her life in the present, and in the memorable past. MHO. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

dar

[M&Mmommy]

Heartmama, :heartbeat , you have made my day! Your words are so moving, and your descriptions of what my words were trying to convey are right on.

And, know that my heart goes out to you regarding your & your DS's experiences. I know *exactly* what you mean here:
"It was a very deep kind of connection, of a shared pain. The way any person might look at you, look away, cringe, break down in tears, then collect themselves and look back at you for a validation over what was revealed, it is just something you intuitively recognize as emotional communication."

Your words break my heart and encourage me. Bless you and your family and everyone everywhere connections are forged in this heartful way.

Yours in spirit,
M&Mmommy

[~member~]

~Feel perplexed, confused, or even upset, and don't find the discussion persuasive enough to change that feeling
I know it's even harder for ppl who were raised in a way that never allowed them to cry.
Myself, I was a 'wild child' and it took a long time for my parents to "get it", and once they did, I completely changed from an angry, rageful child, into a human being who could think, feel, and utilyze my intelligence.
After they would hold me and let me cry and rage and listen to me and validate my feelings and fears, I no longer threw tantrums, but was able to think about what exactly was causing my feelings of distress and figure out how to solve the problem.
Many times it was beyond my power, so my mom or dad would hold me and let me cry.

When I had my first child, I did the same thing, and I find when I look back, we have not had the tantrums, the power struggles, etc. that many parents worry about.

[DevaMajka]

I'm not Alegna... but really, babies are crying because something is *wrong*. I don't think the focus is so much on stopping the crying, but on helping the child feel better, and helping fix what is wrong. When babies are happy and no longer is distress, they don't cry. If nursing does that, great. If a quiet room works, fabulous. If simply being held and crying works, that's fine too... but I do think that needing to cry to r