how long for a time out for a 22 mo old? [Archive]

umsami

01-31-2006, 11:51 AM

I think two minutes is usually enough for a 2 year old... if the time out is going to work. As the Mom of a 26 or so month old, I'm finding out that a lot of times he doesn't need the time out, what he needs is a Mom who is more aware. Why is he acting up? And is he really acting up or is he just being a naturally curious two year old?? For example, two minutes ago, Sami went into the kitchen... found a basket that was filled with spices & stuff... emptied the basket... brought it in the living room and dumped his goldfish crackers and apple slices in it. Then he carried it to me, proud of his basket. My initial reaction was "Whataryoudoing???Stop!!" but because he came up to me and talked about the basket (first time I've heard him use the word)... it kind of made me stop. And I thought... do I really care that he wants to carry aroudn things in a basket??(No) The problem was that he was spilling goldfish crackers all over... and then grinding them into the rug with his feet. (Also, that this basket probably has never been cleaned.) So, I went into the kitchen and found a plastic collander with handles... and put a whole bunch of old plastic containers and lids in it and gave it to him. He was perfectly happy and still is. I didn't yell. He wasn't punished for being naturally curious. Problem solved.

When I do use time outs, it's usually because he's having a tantrum... but once again, I'm finding that figuring out why he's having the tantrum is more effective. A lot of times, he's hungry... or too tired (fighting naps these days)... or wants to go outside to the park. I tend not to use time outs as much. I also find that usually by ignoring him for 20 seconds and saying "I don't speak to/play with boys who are crying uncontrollably"... or some such thing... he stops. What he really wants is my attention.

But anyways... so when I need a time out... two minutes is plenty. I like to put him on the sofa and ignore him if he's freaking out... and when he's calmer (usually 10-20 seconds), I'll sit real close to him...and try to talk to him about what's going on.

Hope this helps.

captain crunchy

01-31-2006, 11:52 AM

I am not an advocate for *naughty* chairs or time-outs...for several reasons...

....but may I gently suggest a comfort corner? A comfort corner is not a place for blame, or shame, or punishment or isolation. A comfort corner is a place where children can go either alone, or with a caregiver or parent if they choose -- to remove themself for a couple of moments from overstimulation, or a situation that may be turning negative for both the child and the parent. It is a place to decompress.

The comfort corner can be a little place with a few favorite books, stuffed animals, a favorite blanket, and a comfy pillow etc. When things are getting crazy, instead of it being a place where the child is *sent* for punishment... it is a place to recollect thoughts and to calm down. If it were me and I chose to employ the comfort corner--when my child was becoming overstimulated or upset, or things were getting a bit *out of hand* I may say something like "I could sure use a little break. Would you like to come with me over here and read a book or snuggle (or whatever)"... then when the child is calm, and disengaged from whatever behavior that is not working, it opens up a chance for dialogue "It seemed like you were very angry when _____ happened".... "I sometimes feel frustrated when I can't ______" (or whatever)...

To me that is a healthier solution if one were looking for a way to facilite disengaging for a moment from behavior that may be getting frustrating for the both of you.

Good luck.

umsami

01-31-2006, 11:55 AM

Captain Crunchy!

I love your idea of a comfort corner. Thanks so much for sharing that :)

Georgia!

Thanks so much for sharing that article by Peggy. It's nice to know that we can evolve as parents.... LOL... I think sometimes I feel intimidated to post that I'm having problems, that I'm not perfect... but we can all evolve as parents (& people)... and become better.

Karla

loraxc

01-31-2006, 12:10 PM

We have used the comfort corner (we call it the calm-down corner) with GREAT success with our 24-month-old. :thumb She even will say on her own that she wants to go there with me and calm down. It's been really great. :)

water

01-31-2006, 12:24 PM

how long for a time out for a 22 mo old?

Umm...zero minutes? I think time outs are ineffective and useless especially for a baby!!

Ruthla

01-31-2006, 12:26 PM

Umm...zero minutes? I think time outs are ineffective and useless especially for a baby!!
:yeah:

dharmamama

01-31-2006, 01:01 PM

Umm...zero minutes? I think time outs are ineffective and useless especially for a baby!!

I think a nice follow-up to this would be what you DO consider effective and useful for a child of this age. That way it doesn't come across as just condescending.

Namaste!

water

01-31-2006, 01:15 PM

You are right, dhm, I was just coming back to post a follow-up.

Although some mamas here on the GD board do use timeouts, i would bet that most people would agree that they are not effective for a ONE year-old, which, despite the fact that i'm sure she is smart and precocious, is what she is.

In fact, even in the mainstream literature, they do not recommend timeouts for kids under three, because, as the OP has discovered, the kid doesn't get it, and thus the punishment is ineffective.

Starbarrett, read around here some more and I'm sure you will find out what great mamas there are here and the great resources they have to share with you so that you can deal with your baby without having to resort to timeouts. The PP's have already given you some great ideas

When my dc are that young, I redirect, redirect, redirect. I also use "get-off-your-butt" parenting, which means when you say something to your child, if they don't listen, you need to get up, go over to them and help them (GENTLY) with whatever it is, i.e. stopping what they are doing, doing what you need them to do, etc etc.

OP maybe if you post some more specific examples of your baby's behaviour, the mamas here can help out a little more.

alegna

01-31-2006, 01:22 PM

I would agree that timeouts are not appropriate at all at 22 months. The comfort corner is a great idea. Further suggestions are going to depend on why she was in a time out to start with. If you could explain what the issues are we could see if we have some useful ideas.

-Angela

erika h

01-31-2006, 01:29 PM

I think two minutes is usually enough for a 2 year old...The rule of thumb I hear is 1 minute per year. At 22 months that would put you at just about 2 minutes.

If your child is verbal enough, ask her at the end of the two minutes why she though she ended up in timeout, so you can see whether she made the connection between the behaviour and the timeout.

If your child isn't verbal enough yet, you're probably better of with redirecting her activity.

Piglet68

01-31-2006, 01:41 PM

Hree's an article you might find interesting:

The Case Against Time Out (http://www.naturalchild.com/guest/peter_haiman.html)

Oh, and welcome! :)

dido1

01-31-2006, 02:49 PM

Piglet, thanks for that link. I have a friend who is a psychologist who keeps advocating time-outs to me, and that article gives me some good arguments. My "they just don't feel right to me" line hasn't been working, LOL.

I agree with the previous posters about modelling behaviour, get-off-your-butt parenting (love that expression) and also the concept of "time-in" which I read here on the boards somewhere. I have a 21 month old whose behaviour can be extremely frustrating, but I'm learning that often what he needs most is my attention, or a "time-in" with me or his father so we can calm down, assess the problem and move past the temper tantrum or difficult behaviour.

Now, I have to give myself time-outs some times, where I repeat over and over and over "I am the adult, I am the adult". Who was it that said before you can effectively discipline your child you must learn to discipline yourself?

royaloakmi

01-31-2006, 06:16 PM

The only person in my house who gets time-outs is me :nut

I don't think they are effective for young children and I don't want my children to think that they are naughty or bad (though I obviously work to help them understand and correct behaviors that are wrong).

Diane~Alena

01-31-2006, 06:31 PM

The act of putting my daughter in the time out corner is enough for her, most days. I leave her in the corner untill she finishes her fit. It can take 20 seconds or 2 minutes. She rolls around and does the bacon on the floor but stays in her area. Once she is calmer I go and hug her and we get back to life. It may not work for everyone but thats what works for us.

When my dc are that young, I redirect, redirect, redirect. I also use "get-off-your-butt" parenting, which means when you say something to your child, if they don't listen, you need to get up, go over to them and help them (GENTLY) with whatever it is, i.e. stopping what they are doing, doing what you need them to do, etc etc.

I love this idea but for my kids it doesn't work all the time. My children are redheaded little monsters(we love them for it) with a will of steal. If my daughter wants something I can't redirect for the life of me. In fact the more I try the harder she works to get it. I found time out or the corner is the only thing that can get her to break that determination. I always try other things first though. Most times a snack or juice is what helps, because her blood sugar is low. Other times I will try taking her out of the room. If these don't work then I have to put her in her spot. once she calms in the spot we try again after a nice hug.

lara1828

01-31-2006, 06:50 PM

I personally have decided not to use time-out just because I've never seen it WORK in a young child. And older children always seem to regard it as punishment, which in theory it's not supposed to be.

I've got a pretty easy going kid, but I've found redirection or removal of the temptation to generally be effective. It only took him about twice to figure out what "I'm going to take that away if you keep putting it in your mouth." means. Now, sometimes he chooses to stop, others he chooses to test. If I regard it as his choice, it makes it easier to avoid getting angry or frustrated myself. If he chooses the latter, I just remove the temptation - case closed.

"Get off your butt parenting" is my new favorite catch-phrase :)

starbarrett

02-03-2006, 12:45 AM

Thank you all for your feedback. I had no idea time-outs were not considered "gentle discipline" or I would not have posted. But then I wouldn't have heard your wonderful replies and read the articles. As I said, i'm only a few days into needing any kind of discipline.

I am a big fan of "get off you butt" parenting. I make sure we make eye contact when we talk-- as a general rule, not just for corrective conversation. I redirect redirect redirect and use logical consequences, which has been 100% effective until this week. I am not a neat freak, and she is allowed all kinds of messy and disruptive play.

I'm pretty chill, and normally so is she. But here's what she did to get into the time out she was in when I originally posted: We were sitting having breakfast. She wanted to drink from my water glass. I said (as I have said hundreds of times before when I didn't want her backwash in my water), "your water is right here" and handed her her water. She immediately picked up her plate and threw it on the floor in anger. Food all over the floor. From calm to irrate in a second.

That is not acceptable behavior. But you can't redirect that. And the logical consequence would be to withhold food or water-- but that's not okay either. Creating power struggles over food is the quickest way to create a bulimic. So she got a time out.

When I put on her naughty seat, I recap what she did and why she got a time out. When I go over to her, I thank her for sitting there nicely, and ask her if she knows why she is there. She doesn't speak all that well yet, but she does tell me (even if I don't understand it fully) and I undestand enough words to know that she knows exactly why she is there. And perhaps she's offering her side of the story. I hope this will evolve into real discussion when she's able to talk better. We then hug to make up and then she helps me pick up the food she threw.

I posted too soon. The time outs are helping. She got 2 a day for three days and she started to figure it out. And I adjusted to this new tantrum-y two year old who blossomed overnight. Who now shreiks "haveit" and "mine" instead of saying "please". I'm adjusting and learning not to react to the shriek but calmly request a please before responding.

I agree that dialogue is the best why to teach. But kids are concrete, and they also need concrete consequences. I agree that a logical consequence is preferable if it's appropriate, but they aren't always appropriate. And I don't personally think there's anything wrong with the word "naughty". I don't think it's belittling to let a child know when their behavior is naughty. As long as it's the behavior and not the child.

Timeouts seem to be working for us, but if it's considered too rude a method for this forum, then I won't post here about it again. I'm not looking for a fight, I was just looking for experience with timeouts.

Fuamami

02-03-2006, 11:20 AM

When I put on her naughty seat, I recap what she did and why she got a time out. When I go over to her, I thank her for sitting there nicely, and ask her if she knows why she is there. She doesn't speak all that well yet, but she does tell me (even if I don't understand it fully) and I undestand enough words to know that she knows exactly why she is there.

Starbarrett, I really appreciate you posting here, and don't want to drive you off by any means. So I just want to respectfully share my experience with you, maybe it'll give you some ideas, maybe you'll think I'm crazy.

There have been many, many times that I felt my dd understood EXACTLY what was going on. She is very verbal, more verbal than any other child I know her age and than many older than her. She is almost three, and she has been speaking in full, complex, grammatically correct sentences for a long time. I'm not trying to brag here, I'm just describing her so I can explain this properly.

However, there are many times that I find out later that she has not understood things the way I thought she was. So I would argue that your dd might not be making the connection the way you think she is. I agree that the behavior is unacceptable. But when you put her in TimeOut for it, I think a number of things may be happening:

1) She may feel angry at you, and therefore distracted from her own feelings pertaining to the "misbehavior". Instead of spending the time "thinking about what she did wrong", it is more likely, IME, she is thinking about how mad she is at you for enforcing the punishment.

2) As she is very young, and still very, very impulsive, she is most likely incapable of stopping her behavior at the moment, and so when she is punished for something out of her control, she may feel lost, out of control, frustrated with herself and her inability to stop herself from doing something "naughty" and this may erode her self-esteem.

3) She is learning that it is unacceptable to express her anger towards you. And that even though she may still be angry at you, she is expected to hug you and swallow her anger and move on.

I don't mean to sound harsh. I've tried T/Os, too. They didn't work AT ALL. So, again, I just want to tell you what my feelings on the subject are. I agree that throwing your food on the floor is unacceptable. But she's really very young!

Okay, so here's what I would do in the situation. Dd throws food on floor. I would say, "Dd, you may not throw food on the floor. It seems like you are angry that I wouldn't let you have a drink of my water, but you cannot throw food on the floor. Instead, I would like you to tell me that you are angry. Now come down here and help me clean up this food."

Here (hopefully), your dd is part of the solution, she is told her behavior is unacceptable, but she is also offered an alternative, one that is more socially acceptable.

Sorry for the :blah ! In closing, may I suggest Anthony Wolf's The Secret of Parenting for a really good argument against punishment?

blessed

02-03-2006, 11:54 AM

My 2 yo is from an orphanage, and most of the literature about PI kids (post-institutionalized) advise against time-outs, feeling that it is destabilizing to the baby's bond formation with the parent. They also recommend co-sleeping and continuing bottle feeding, or even resuming it in the case that the child's already weaned, into the second year or beyond.

We're lucky in that we've never needed to consider whether to use time outs, since baby's so sweet and good natured. If she senses that we aren't liking something she's doing, she usually just turns to something else :throb .

edit: ooh, I don't mean that to sound like bragging. I just love my kid! :o

PatchyMama

02-03-2006, 12:21 PM

A 22 month old doesnt know how to express their anger, throwing things is a perfectly reasonable solution to them. Punishing them for not knowing how to express themselves in the way you want her to doesnt seem fair. How does she know that you arent punishing her for throwing things or if you are punishing her for BEING angry... it seems it would be easy for this to lead to a problem with her accepting her own emotions.

Tantrums happen, especially in kids just learning to be verbal, I found this article very helpful! http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/discipline/tantrums.html

DevaMajka

02-03-2006, 01:15 PM

Okay, so here's what I would do in the situation. Dd throws food on floor. I would say, "Dd, you may not throw food on the floor. It seems like you are angry that I wouldn't let you have a drink of my water, but you cannot throw food on the floor. Instead, I would like you to tell me that you are angry. Now come down here and help me clean up this food."
my bold
ITA with telling her acceptable ways to express her anger. Depending on the child's emotional maturity, I may even give more physical ways- jump up and down, roar like a lion, show them sign language for "angry," whatever.
I KNOW ds responds very well to being given alternatives. The only continuing issues we have are the ones I don't deal with right, and don't give alternatives for. (like issues at bedtime, when I'm not as patient as I'd like to be).
I'd be wary of exactly what time-out was teaching, if it was "working."

CelticMomma

02-03-2006, 01:20 PM

Amber,

I know how frustrating it is when a child throws their plate on the floor. I get the same thing from time to time. Mostly from my 18 month old, but occasionally from my 4 year old, too (although, now that I think about it, it's been months since she did that last).

In a situation like that, I would probably say "You want my water, and so do I. Let me hand you *your* water so you may have a drink." And, if the plate went on the floor, I would very calmly say "You're very frustrated. That's not an appropriate way to handle your frustration. Let's clean the food up." while TRYING to stay very calm and unaffected by her fit. That would be pretty much the end of it with a 22 month old. If she didn't participate in cleaning it up, I would continue cleaning it up myself and probably state matter of factly "I don't like cleaning this food up from the floor alone. Would you like to pick up the peas or the rice?" (or whatever the food might be) If she still resisted, I would just keep up with my conversation about how this is not an appropriate way to handle frustration, remind her that we don't always get everything that we want, that Mommy deserves to have her own cup of water, etc, while I cleaned up. Most 22 month olds are pretty cooperative as far as cleaning up goes if Mommy is doing it, though, so I imagine she would help. It's not until they get a touch older (and that may be the age when it starts happening for some) that they get truly willful.

I don't like the term "naughty mat". It implies that the child is naughty, and I don't want to label my children. I focus on the behavior that I don't like. So, if my kids do something I don't like, they get reminded that I don't like the way they are acting, or the way they handled things, but that I still like and love them. I also don't use "good girl" or "bad girl" for the same reason. But, I don't hesitate using "good job", especially with young ones, because some positive reinforcement is a good thing.

There are a lot of people who don't use positive reinforcement at all, and that's certainly a valid way of parenting. But, as one who didn't receive much positive reinforcement growing up, I find that I'm always looking to get it. So, I try to offer positive reinforcement in moderation.

So, if the throwing the plate on the floor thing happened, I would start cleaning up and if my toddler joined in, I would reinforce "I like how you're taking responsibility for your actions. You're doing a great job cleaning up." or something like that. I don't overdo it, or dish it out for simple things, but when there's been an undesirable behavior, I find it especially necessary to highlight the desirable behavior when I see it in contrast.

As far as timeouts go, I would bet most of us have given them a try at one point or another. When you hear how effective they are, it's hard to not want to test it out. It works for some kids, and just doesn't for others. I have a daughter that time outs don't work for. She gets very lonely in time out, so it's not something I like to do to her. But, when she's hurting herself, others or property and there's no way to redirect, a time out is sometimes necessary, especially with other children around. Getting the child away from the situation so they can reflect on what would work better can be a very useful too - for an older child. And, I love the idea of a comfort corner. We have a "special place" set up for my 4 year old, and she retreats to that when she needs to. She has books, pillows, blankets and privacy. She always comes out clearer than she went in, and she tends to take herself there without my prompting, although occasionally I do remind her it's available.

Good luck!

wednesday

02-03-2006, 01:52 PM

That is not acceptable behavior. But you can't redirect that. And the logical consequence would be to withhold food or water-- but that's not okay either. Creating power struggles over food is the quickest way to create a bulimic. So she got a time out.

I totally hear where you are coming from. My son (28 months) has been a plate-thrower and it really pushes my buttons. We've responded a few times to that behavior with time-out and it doesn't seem to have made any difference. Last night he was angry about wanting my (breakable) glass and when I tried to direct him to his cup (very similar situation to what you described) he got mad and swiped his dish hard off the table. Ravioli flew through the air and landed all over the floor. I immediately saw red and yelled, "That's it, you're in time-out!" :bag: DS started bawling, and DH kind of raised his eyebrows because I've been telling HIM not to do time-out and suggesting alternatives. But when I'm the one who's mad it's harder to think clearly, kwim? I just want him to quit throwing his dish and making a mess! Anyway after about one minute I calmed down and remember that I really want to discipline in a way that TEACHES ds, rather than just punishes him. So I picked him up from where he was in time-out, carried him over to where the ravioli was on the floor, and asked him to help me clean it up. He quite cheerfully picked up each ravioli and put it back in the bowl. Then I handed him a damp rag and asked him to wipe the sauce from the (thankfully hardwood) floor. He did a good job, got about 98% of it cleaned up entirely on his own. Situation resolved. It was a real DUH moment for me. DS honestly didn't understand (IMO) that throwing his dish meant there was a mess for someone to clean up. I wouldn't be surprised if we had to go through this scenario a few more times before he completely gets it, but I am confident that he will, and even firmer in my resolve that I need to respond to undesirable behavior by showing him what he SHOULD do, not merely punishing him.

alegna

02-03-2006, 02:48 PM

You've gotten LOTS of great advice. I agree that at 22 months it is a matter of impulse control. I also really dislike the idea of calling a child naughty. Naughty=bad. No child is bad. :( I do understand the frustration, but I think the best advice here is that you need to SOLVE the issue (clean up the mess and eventually stop the outbursts) rather than PUNISH for what has happened. The timeout in this case is clearly punishing.

good luck on your path to more gentle parenting.

-Angela

water

02-03-2006, 07:04 PM

ITA with alegna and the other PP. Gentle discipline is the natural outgrowth of attachment parenting. I mean why bother spending all that time co-sleeping, wearing your baby, breastfeeding and responding to your baby's cues, only to destroy the attachment relationship via arbitrary punishment when they are only slightly older?

I know this may sound harsh, but you are obviously on the MDC boards as an AP mom, and you aren't new here, so why wouldn't you want to extend your view further forward from babyhood, and see what AP is all about in the coming years?

Think of Winter

02-03-2006, 07:17 PM

Quick idea about plate-throwing, have you seen the kind with the suction cups on the bottom? We still have trouble with throwing/dropping food on the floor. Now I'm trying to work on myself (keeping calm, remembering that it's really not that big a deal to clean it up, repeating "food is for eating, food stays on the plate or goes in the tummy") rather than thinking I'm going to be able to stop the behavior. It's been going on here for about a 15 mos! My ds doesn't do it out of frustration or anger, he just gets a kick out of it.

Best wishes,

Piglet68

02-03-2006, 07:20 PM

Thank you all for your feedback. I had no idea time-outs were not considered "gentle discipline" or I would not have posted. But then I wouldn't have heard your wonderful replies and read the articles.

We're so glad you did post! We are not here to pass or fail you as a GD mama! We are here to help. Please stick around. You are perfectly welcome to post!!

I agree with what the others have said. It isn't a question of your DD understanding your words, but being able to control her impulses. It's actually worse when they understand your words because then they are aware that they can't do what mama wants them to do, and it can affect their self-image. Did you know, for example, that the regions of the frontal cortex (in the brain) that are involved in impulse control are not fully developed until children are about 3 years old? The idea that your child can just not throw things when she is angry is not realistic based on normal child development. So that is why timeouts or consequences or other punishments are not effective.

And I don't personally think there's anything wrong with the word "naughty". I don't think it's belittling to let a child know when their behavior is naughty. As long as it's the behavior and not the child.

Problem is, kids that age can't make that distinction. They aren't even aware that they HAVE these things called emotions. They are what they feel, in their minds. So "naughty" means she is bad for feeling the way she does. And not only does she have no control over how she feels, but she is normal for feeling what she does.

See, alot of GD is based on what we know about early childhood development. Decades of research that doesn't seem to have filtered its way into our societal mindset, has shown clearly that a 2 year old (just for example) does not possess the abilities to control behaviour an adult does. Expecting them to control the way they express their emotions is unrealisitic. What you need is to give them skills, the same way you would teach them to read or do math. You could send them in timeout whenever they get a wrong answer, but it's a slow and ineffective way to go about it. :)

The way punishments and timeouts work is the child is conditioned to either suppress their emotions, or channel them into other destructive behaviours that don't meet with the same level of disapproval from the parent. And this conditional learning utilizes parts of the brain that are very different from the parts of the brain that deal with learning socially acceptable behaviour, controlling impulses, and regulating the expression of emotion.

Timeouts seem to be working for us, but if it's considered too rude a method for this forum, then I won't post here about it again. I'm not looking for a fight, I was just looking for experience with timeouts.

It's not "too rude" and you are welcome here! Nobody is going to throw you out for saying timeouts are working for you. But if you are interested in learning more about the whole subject, stick around, keep your mind open, and don't pay attention to anybody who attacks you for it. We're here to educate, not to decide who gets to be GD and who isn't. :)

georgia

02-03-2006, 10:51 PM

ITA with everything Piglet68 said above.

We're here to educate, not to decide who gets to be GD and who isn't. :)

:nod

starbarrett

02-03-2006, 11:03 PM

I really appreciate the dialogue and the reframing-- and I am especially sensitive to the idea that she may be getting the message that being angry isn't okay. I don't want her to stop expressing herself to me.

But I also don't want her to think in any little part of her mind that throwing her plate in anger is okay. I am not convinced that simply talking in a calm voice will convey this. I talk to her about taking toys away from her baby brother. i talk to her about eating the bath soap. Hitting and throwing in anger is another level of misbehaving altogether and I want to convey that.

before the epicsode I outlined, dd had a similar food throwing incident. The first one, actually. She wanted some cheese curds and was holding the container. I got out one of her little bowls, and I held the bowl while she took handfuls of the curds out of the container and put them into her bowl. When she had enough, I handed her the bowl, and took the container. She yelled, "no" and threw the bowl on the floor, scattering the curds. Clearly she didn't undersand what we were doing and when she realized it, it was an unacceptable idea to her. i calmly said, "amaya, we don't throw cheese on the floor. can you help me pick this up?" And I got down on the floor and started cleaning up. She said a defiant "no" and hopped on her rocking horse, which was right next to where we were. She gave me a "what're you gonna do about it?" look and started gleefully saying "wee! Wee!". that was her first time out.

Someone said she wasn't old enough to be willful. A week ago I would have agreed. But as of 5 days ago, willful turned on like a light switch. And the rules have changed. Now I just have to decide what the rules are. I dont' want to crush her spirit, but I do want to make sure she understands that I demand the same respect I try to give her.

I appreciate all of your thoughts. It's helping me build my new 2-yr-old policy. that's why I love this forum, so much experience from a mindset I trust.

Before I sign off, I'll tell you the real reason I'm hesitant about gentle discipline. I've known several kids from a couple different families raised on it, and I felt that at 10 yrs old, they didn't understand the difference between right and wrong. i'm sure there's a wrong way to do it, and every child is different, but I want to make sure that it will produce the results I want. Of course I want a good relationship with my children, but I want them to understand right from wrong, also.

johub

02-03-2006, 11:44 PM

Food throwing was the thing that first caused me to use time out with my ds1 so I have so been there with you.
However even though I think that time out is ok in some situations this is how I use it.
I do not think a time out is an effective primary teaching method, however it can serve as a reminder that behaviors that have already been mastered continue to be expected. SO here is how it worked for me.
My ds1 had a food/plate throwing habit. This was not all about anger, sometimes it was about boredom, sometimes it was about being "all done" and I am sure at the beginnign it was about textures, velocity, gravity and simply exploring all of the fundamental changes food goes through from plate to destination. I respect this at first and expect that a child who is new to solids is going to experiment. But usually after about 18 months I start expressing that food/plate etc. . .throwing is not allowed.
And in order for my ds to comply he had to do 2 things. He had to learn what the expectation was AND he had to obtain enough impulse control to behave as expected the majority ofthe time.
I do not think time out teaches these things.
When we first helped him master not throwing food I reminded him in a firm voice that food is NOT for throwing. I limited his access to food at the table by either serving small quantities or taking an about to be thrown plate off the high chair tray and setting it on the dining table and asking. "Do you still want your x? " "Ok, you may eat it, but remember, no throwing food".
I also graduated to getting my child out of his high chair and having him help pick up the food. "Uh Oh, throwing food makes a Mess!! WE sure dont like messes, let's clean this up"
This wasnt always done in a very calm conversational voice. I often said firmly and with a serious look in my eye "No throwing food" or "food stays on your plate" or what have you.
This , believe it or not was enough! My ds learned very effectively that throwing of food/plates, forks etc. . .was not acceptable and meals became much neater.
Then his brother and sister started eating solids and being messy and dropping things. And he thought it would be fun to start again. This after months of no food throwing.
First I tried all of the things that helped him learn the rule in the first place. But they did not help because he still knew that he was not supposed to throw food, he did not have to re-learn it.
And so I resorted to time out because at this time I felt that what he needed was a reminder to behave in a way he had already learned.
And in this way it did work. And it worked really well. It took 3 time outs and he stopped altogether. (this after a few weeks worth of throwing etc. . .)
So in the situation with your dd. I think you canshow her that you are serious and that it is not allowed and not acceptable without putting her in time out. YOu can stop everything to handle the situation. Get her out of the high chair, have her help pick things up, tell her that it is never ok to throw her plate. This keeps her mind on the issue and not on the time out (which I think distracts from the issue we are trying to teach)
I think it is really pointless to punish a child who really doesnt know better and doesnt teach them anything.
However I do think that in some families there is a time and place for things like time out.
Joline

Stephanie L.

02-04-2006, 12:19 AM

In my experience, Time-Outs are worthless for children under about 4 YO.

I do give my daughter a 1-2 minute T.O. when I'm at he end of my rope. She knows how to push those buttons! But at 3 1/2 YO the T.O. must be short (1 min.) because she'll quickly get distracted and start playing, forgetting altogether why she is there.

I would not give an (almost) 2 YO a time out at all.

DevaMajka

02-04-2006, 10:33 AM

I agree with what the others have said. It isn't a question of your DD understanding your words, but being able to control her impulses. It's actually worse when they understand your words because then they are aware that they can't do what mama wants them to do, and it can affect their self-image. Did you know, for example, that the regions of the frontal cortex (in the brain) that are involved in impulse control are not fully developed until children are about 3 years old? The idea that your child can just not throw things when she is angry is not realistic based on normal child development. So that is why timeouts or consequences or other punishments are not effective.

The part I bolded is very interesting to me. It goes along quite well with what I'm experiencing right now- that giving acceptable alternatives is very very important with a young kid! I've noticed that ds is very agreeable to doing whatever the alternative is (instead of hitting the window with a block, I give him a paper towel to wipe it with). But just saying "don't" and telling him why, isn't effective nearly as often. And I'm sure it has to do with impulse control. By giving him an alternative, he is still expressing that impulse, it's not just expected to be thrown out. In that way, I am helping him and guiding him.
And I think what you said about it being worse when they KNOW what you want, but can't do it, is right on. I'm definitely *helping* ds to do the acceptable thing, by offering him a "yes" in addition to, or instead of, a "no." Kids want to do the socially acceptable thing, and I think its hard on them when they can't. So I try to make it as easy as I can for him to do the right thing.

But I also don't want her to think in any little part of her mind that throwing her plate in anger is okay. I am not convinced that simply talking in a calm voice will convey this.
I guess there's a difference there, between your philosophy and mine. I am convinced that ds WANTS to do the right thing, and will if he's able. And if he doesn't, there's a good reason. Calm talking may not do it alone, but I am confident that I am able to convey what is and what isn't acceptable, by talking, giving info, and giving alternatives. I ought to say, that I'm quite ok with letting ds know that I'm frustrated with something he's done. And we work to address it, and I try to help him "make it right."
I imagine that in a food throwing situation, like you describe, after I was reasonably sure that ds understood what I was saying, that I would assume that it was indeed impulse/emotion control, and we would work on alternative ways to express frustration and anger. I would do this with the assumption that MY goal of getting him to not throw food, was really his goal too. That he doesn't want to do something that frustrates me, and that is obviously unacceptable.
And I just want to say, that imo, time-outs undermine a child's innate sociality. It gets a child to focus on the effects of their actions on THEMSELVES (if I throw food, I get a time out) rather than the effects on others (if I throw food, mom doesn't like that, and she has to take time to clean it up). It's behaviorism, and it "conditions" a child to behave. It ignores reasons for misbehavior, and it ignores that kids want to be "good" and make you happy.

Good luck to you. I know it can indeed be frustrating when a certain mis-behavior continues.

wednesday

02-04-2006, 11:15 AM

And I just want to say, that imo, time-outs undermine a child's innate sociality. It gets a child to focus on the effects of their actions on THEMSELVES (if I throw food, I get a time out) rather than the effects on others (if I throw food, mom doesn't like that, and she has to take time to clean it up).

I like the way you phrased that. I would venture to guess that for most of us the whole point of discipline is to raise children to be reasonably sensitive and aware of the effects their actions have on others, and not just on themselves.

Piglet68

02-04-2006, 04:33 PM

But I also don't want her to think in any little part of her mind that throwing her plate in anger is okay. I am not convinced that simply talking in a calm voice will convey this.

If you believe that your child understands words enough to hear what you are saying, then saying it is all you need to convey it. I mean, unless the child is deaf or does not understand English or does not understand words well enough...then after you have said it a few times the child KNOWS it is not acceptable.

So now you are faced with the question: if she knows it's not, why does she do it? Another principle of GD is that children are innately "good" and, when properly attached to their parents, they WANT TO PLEASE THEM. This desire is burned into them, and it is this that we can use to our advantage.

If your child KNOWS that throwing bowls of food is wrong, and if she then throws the bowl, you have to decide what you think is going on. You may decide that she simply doesn't understand that this is unacceptable to you. You may decide that she knows it isn't, but does it anyways out of some malicious desire to "test" you or to just piss you off, or she is being "defiant" or "willful". Or you can decide that she knows it's wrong, but she was unable in that moment to control her expression of emotion enough to stop from throwing the bowl. I believe the latter, and there is MUCH scientific evidence to support this. GD is based on this.

Your child wants to please you, and when they fail to do so, they need reassurances that it's normal, that they are not "Bad" for failing in that particular situation. And...most importantly of all they need to be shown what they CAN do. NOT what they can't (which is all timeout accomplishes, and if we accept that they understood you when you stated it verbally, then timeouts become redundant). So when the bowl is thrown, you calmly state that food is not for throwing and then suggest a course of action. "Let's clean this up". If your child says "NO" and walks away, CLEAN IT UP ANYWAYS. Why? because: CHILDREN LEARN BY WATCHING WHAT YOU DO.

I can tell you that I have NEVER made my child clean up and it is simply never an issue. She rarely ever refused to participate (and this was when she was about 2) and now as a 3 year old it's just what she does because it's what she has always seen done and nobody ever made it into a power struggle.

Anyways, I digress, lol....I guess what I'm asking you to do is take your thoughts a bit further. What DO you believe about why your DD would throw the bowl, and exactly how does timeouts address that? What do YOU feel timeouts tell her, and what is the mechanism by which they work? What I understand about timeouts, is that the idea is to make the child "suffer" in some way for doing wrong, in order to teach them to do right. And when you boil it down to that, it does seem kind of silly, doesn't it? How does making a child feel bad, motivate them to do right?

Anyways, I"ll leave off here. I'm really glad you are sticking around, and I hope we are giving you some food for thought. AND we are appreciating your POV as well.

I've known several kids from a couple different families raised on it, and I felt that at 10 yrs old, they didn't understand the difference between right and wrong....

I can appreciate this. Please don't confuse ineffective parenting with GD. And...don't let us be your proof, study up and read the literature and let your own mind decide. We can point you in the right direction, but only you can decide if it resonates with you. And...I might suggest that an EXCELLENT book for a first read is Alfie Kohn's "Unconditional Parenting". The book is absolutely full of references to scientific studies to back up what we all are saying here. It's one of the very few parenting books that have a proper reference section. Check out if your local library has it. That way it won't even cost you anything to read it! :)

phathui5

02-06-2006, 06:02 AM

Before I sign off, I'll tell you the real reason I'm hesitant about gentle discipline. I've known several kids from a couple different families raised on it, and I felt that at 10 yrs old, they didn't understand the difference between right and wrong. i'm sure there's a wrong way to do it, and every child is different, but I want to make sure that it will produce the results I want. Of course I want a good relationship with my children, but I want them to understand right from wrong, also

You know, the one family that I know where the kids are like this, they have gentle, but no discipline. The mom puts up with crappy behavior and lets the kids treat her badly. I think that gentle discipline is possible if you have both parts.

maya44

02-06-2006, 06:44 AM

You know, the one family that I know where the kids are like this, they have gentle, but no discipline. The mom puts up with crappy behavior and lets the kids treat her badly. I think that gentle discipline is possible if you have both parts.

I agree with this completely. I have gd'd my three dd's, for almost a decade. They are all "well behaved"

I do want to empahsize something a pp said about how to talk to your child when they have done something you feel they should not have, like throwing food on the floor.

A calm voice is the key. But it is not a "normal every day conversation" voice. It is quiet but low and serious. It need to sound different than your every day voice. Saying "I know you are angry but you can't throw your food on the floor" in this kind of voice has a totally different feel than saying it in your every day voice. Say it out loud in those two voices and you will see what I mean.

Like the pp said, I have found that this was all that was necessary 99 percent of the time.

CaraboosMama

02-06-2006, 08:10 AM

While I agree with many of the PP's that I don't think time outs are the way to go - I wanted to add a few concrete things that I do that help bith me and my 22 mth old dd...

1. I do what I think of as a "time in." This works best when my dd is frustrated & I am not. I get down on the floor with her and talk to her about why she's mad, upset, etc. and we try to fix it.

2. I have both of us take a break. If I am feeling frustrated as well (i.e. she is throwing her food down angrily after I have reminded her several times that the food goes in her mouth or on the plate...etc). I tell her one more time what behavior I expect from her, and then remove both of us from the situation & go read, snuggle, etc.

Some might argue that #2 reinforces the negative behaviour, but here is why it doesn't
1. She is not being allowed to continue the bad behavior.
2. She is getting something she needs - but she is still being told and shown that there are boundaries. When we use something incorrectly after being told/shown the right thing to do (i.e. we don't hit the cat w/ drumsticks!) we don't get to do it anymore. But, love & affection is not withdrawn.

I also wanted to add that I know several parents who are extremely gentle discipliners who use time-outs occassionly in an appropriate way. Some children - particularly older children or introverted personalities - benefit from a "break" by themselves to help sort their feelings. I think the big key is not making it punitive or using shaming language
(i.e. naughty chair, corner, etc.) behavior is bad, children are not.

maya44

02-06-2006, 08:38 AM

blessed

02-06-2006, 09:00 AM

Kate, that sounds very much like how I deal with my 24 month old. It's been very successful for us.

When I do the 'time in', as you call it, I've learned to make it very brief. It's not interesting or rewarding for Baby to hear why she's in trouble, so to keep her attention and good will I always just quickly move on to something else.

I do this exaggerated drawn out "Oooh noooooo! THAT'S not what we do!" That always gets her attention immediately. I'll follow it with a brief explanation: "that hurts the dog to pull his ears!" and then just turn to something else.

We also remove objects if she continues to use them inappropriately despite one warning. She's learned that, once she's warned, the object's just a goner if she keeps it up, so she heeds our warning pretty religiously. We don't accompany it with any censure at all. It's NEVER "bad girl for banging your spoon. Give me that!" Instead we just act nonchalant and say "honey, if you bang your spoon on the table we'll have take it away! Yep, that's the rule!" That virtually always works. She nods and goes on to do something new.

If she were to continue banging, we casually take the spoon and set it aside, within her sight but out of her reach. We keep the mood light and matter of fact. I'll shrug and say "Oh no. I had to take the spoon because you were banging, remember? Here honey, do you want some peas?" She doesn't seem to equate the taking away with us so it's not a power struggle. Instead she views it more like a natural consequence of her actions, sort of like throwing the sucker in the lake means you don't have it suck on anymore.

I usually reintroduce the object shortly so that she has the opportunity to show me and herself that she can have it again and not misuse it. It's very rare that she doesn't just happily go on to use it properly after that. It's not uncommon that she'll turn it into a game - raise the spoon and act like she's going to bang it, and then peal with laughter when I exclaim in mock dismay "oh no! Don't do it! Don't bang the spoon!" It's a favorite way of ours to reframe situations back into loving, playful affection.

Yooper

02-06-2006, 09:06 AM

I am late to this thread.......

I am not a fan of time outs so I cannot help you there. But I though I would share how we handled food throwing in case you are still reading.

Dd has never been a big food thrower. But the few times it happened, typically between 18 months and 2 yo, there was always an underlying issue that needed addressing. Most times it was frustration that I did not understand what she wanted or having difficulty manpulating the fork/spoon. It could look "willful" but I agree with pp that 2 yos really are not capable of willful. At these times, punishment would have been a double frustration for dd. I simply cleaned up the food, asked dd if she was done eating. I am not too picky about floors so if any of the food was salvagable, I would offer it to dd. If not, I would get more food. Then to address the frustration I would offer to help feed dd and make sure I understood if the actual food offered was the problem. Usually after the release of throwing the food, dd felt calmer and was able to tell me what the problem was in one form or another.

I agree that it is not great with me to have dd think throwing food is a good release. So after she did it I would always make double sure to take the time to try and help her. It sounds like "dd threw the food so now she gets more attention and will therefore throw food more" but really it does not work that way. Once she learned that I am her advocate and will help her any way I can, she made more effort to "get through" to me rather than resort to food throwing. Aside from the 2-3 times it happened, it has not been a problem again. She still gets frustrated but has leanred to try harder to ask for help or throw the napkin:) Had I reacted with horror, or a "big deal" I suspect that the food throwing would have continued. Basically the food throwing did not get a big reaction from me except for me to refocus on dd and make sure I was not missing info.